FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

[geeeeee]

Just went back to PES 6 on my PS2 after nearly 2 years since I bought my PS4. Oh man, it STILL offers a superb footy experience against the AI. Although newer FIFA's and PES's give tighter control, better shielding, gorgeous first touches, and a major graphical advantage, none of them have the soul and richness of PES 5 and 6. The AI plays logically, the tactics actually make sense, and the variety of goals is wonderful. The difficulty is also fair and variable too.

Why can't Konami just release a remaster of these awesome games?

Hi bluewomble88, try out this thread and you will find you are not alone..

https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/the-retro-pes-corner.78697/

 

[Gunslinger]

Just went back to PES 6 on my PS2 after nearly 2 years since I bought my PS4. Oh man, it STILL offers a superb footy experience against the AI. Although newer FIFA's and PES's give tighter control, better shielding, gorgeous first touches, and a major graphical advantage, none of them have the soul and richness of PES 5 and 6. The AI plays logically, the tactics actually make sense, and the variety of goals is wonderful. The difficulty is also fair and variable too.

Why can't Konami just release a remaster of these awesome games?

Because that would be like admitting defeat, I reckon. Either that or they lost the code, knowing Konami.

 

[CarlitosCZE]

Just posted these FIFA 18 videos over here in the video thread, but I wanted to talk about them here - because I put them together with PES in mind.

For every little clip I added to these videos, I realised that I was thinking "I love that just because it would never happen in PES". Take a look at this:



The thing that stands out the most for me isn't a goal - it's the physicality at 2:20. The way that the defender wins the physical battle, and the absolutely perfect reaction animation; it's unique but looks so organic. Physical battles in PES aren't anything like this.

Then there's the attempt that immediately follows it at 2:28. Being 3-0 up and approaching full time, I decided to attempt the spectacular. It's a complete cock-up, and it's glorious. In PES, this would have gone 3ft wide of the post.

But I do love the goal around 1:40, where the keeper just does a complete Karius - I don't like FIFA's keepers (they're godlike too often), but the engine allows stuff like this to happen, and this is on Legendary difficulty. It felt new.

Then you've got this one:



This clip is a cup game, a Premier League team against a lower-league team. It was a grind. They were playing a few kids, I was keeping the ball, trying not to make a mistake.

This isn't the bit that most impresses me - but a move around 2:20 ends up with a moment that reminds me of the lunge Gazza made at the World Cup a while ago. Stick a toe out and it's in. But more importantly, it leads to a corner, that leads to what happens at 2:40.

Okay, the keeper pushes it out, and his attempt at saving the rebound is bizarre (watch his legs). But the defender desperately crumples into the striker and takes him out. It would have been a penalty if it hadn't been a goal. Remember penalties in football games, guys?

Even that isn't what I love, though. What I love is how amazing it feels to defend the lead.

Now. I've disliked FIFA's defending system for a long time, and I still think the game makes the simplest defending/tackling sometimes impossible, putting these weird invisible barriers in place around strikers - but I'm starting to appreciate some of the moments/feelings it creates.

When they have the ball and I just about manage to make a slide tackle at 3:33 that disrupts the play - when my hero left-back so calmly positions himself to swipe the ball away and clear around 3:50 - when I just about make the block at 4:10 to prevent the ball getting into the box.

Most of all, when I try to keep possession in the dying minutes and totally fuck myself around 4:30, giving the ball away - but their desperate through-ball goes out of play and the referee blows for full-time. The feeling of keeping a clean sheet was immense.

These things, and these feelings, just don't exist in PES for me in its current form. The engine - or rather the AI - just can't create these moments. IMO.

I feel exactly the same way. The physical play and shooting variety/error in FIFA is so much ahead of PES, that it is the main reason, why FIFA wins it for me (+ better goalkeepers). As you, I would like to point out some things from videos.

Physical play:



Frostbite simply works. You can see, that there are no players running through players, the collisions look good and real. I like that you can foul the GK (0:45) or foul with an arm (1:36). Also on 2:10, 5:00 or the little clip on 5:05 the collision system looks great. So I like the fact, that you can get a penalty when the def just runs into you like in 5:10.

Shooting/contextual error:



0:08 Totally missed shot, love how the player stops and desperately looks, where the ball is 0:16 heavy touch. 0:30 wanted to put it in the top corner, but overpowered it, my fault. In PES not possible, because even when you put the power bar all the way, to ball goes on goal (can see it in my PES videos, if you like). 0:46 realistic miss, not just because it is Benzema, but because he hit it somehow awkardly.
1:07 couldnt position himself good -> missed the ball. 1:16, 1:23 love these clearences that "gone wrong", 1:27 ok, not the best part of the pitch to shoot from, but from time to time, you have to try to score a "golazo". Not overpowered, but it was simply a hard shot to make so it went to the parking lot. Love it.
1:45 again, not overpowered, the strenght was ok, but he had the ball too much under his body, so it went to the stands.
1:48 another bad shot. Every shot cant be on goal, can it? 1:53 and another one, this time weak to the GK. Anothers at 2:00 and 2:10.
2:16 another heavy touch from a not easy high pass. 2:26 again tried to score a goal from an unprepared position, again to the parking lot.
2:48 tried to keep the ball on the pitch but the touch was bad and led to counterattack. 2:56 another realistic looking bad shot.
3:02 First clearance bad, so the second.

Another thing is that the defending is much more skill-based in FIFA. Yes, it is really hard to master it and frustrating in the beginning, but once you are good in it, you gonna love it.

Also full manual is a lot harder, again thats a good thing.

Thats it. I always were more a PES than FIFA player, but these realistic moments cant really be seen in PES 2017/2018. Cant really see Konami leveling up with EA in these aspects in recent future. Sadly. For me these are gamebreakers, so I will stick with FIFA again.

 

[hitmanuk]

There was loads of contextual errors when it was 1st released and AI aggression but it got progressively toned down after each patch. I couldn't stop playing FIFA up to November but the post XMAS patch ruined it completely.

 

[Madmac79]

I feel exactly the same way. The physical play and shooting variety/error in FIFA is so much ahead of PES, that it is the main reason, why FIFA wins it for me (+ better goalkeepers). As you, I would like to point out some things from videos.

Physical play:



Frostbite simply works. You can see, that there are no players running through players, the collisions look good and real. I like that you can foul the GK (0:45) or foul with an arm (1:36). Also on 2:10, 5:00 or the little clip on 5:05 the collision system looks great. So I like the fact, that you can get a penalty when the def just runs into you like in 5:10.

Shooting/contextual error:



0:08 Totally missed shot, love how the player stops and desperately looks, where the ball is 0:16 heavy touch. 0:30 wanted to put it in the top corner, but overpowered it, my fault. In PES not possible, because even when you put the power bar all the way, to ball goes on goal (can see it in my PES videos, if you like). 0:46 realistic miss, not just because it is Benzema, but because he hit it somehow awkardly.
1:07 couldnt position himself good -> missed the ball. 1:16, 1:23 love these clearences that "gone wrong", 1:27 ok, not the best part of the pitch to shoot from, but from time to time, you have to try to score a "golazo". Not overpowered, but it was simply a hard shot to make so it went to the parking lot. Love it.
1:45 again, not overpowered, the strenght was ok, but he had the ball too much under his body, so it went to the stands.
1:48 another bad shot. Every shot cant be on goal, can it? 1:53 and another one, this time weak to the GK. Anothers at 2:00 and 2:10.
2:16 another heavy touch from a not easy high pass. 2:26 again tried to score a goal from an unprepared position, again to the parking lot.
2:48 tried to keep the ball on the pitch but the touch was bad and led to counterattack. 2:56 another realistic looking bad shot.
3:02 First clearance bad, so the second.

Another thing is that the defending is much more skill-based in FIFA. Yes, it is really hard to master it and frustrating in the beginning, but once you are good in it, you gonna love it.

Also full manual is a lot harder, again thats a good thing.

Thats it. I always were more a PES than FIFA player, but these realistic moments cant really be seen in PES 2017/2018. Cant really see Konami leveling up with EA in these aspects in recent future. Sadly. For me these are gamebreakers, so I will stick with FIFA again.

Holy words.

That's what I've been saying all along. Contextual bad first touches, bad shoots, errors.. before even tactics, that's the stuff that makes the game replayable, that makes the great plays special.. that gives randomness to the single match. It was one of the main strong points of the old Konami games that they completely failed to represent in the new gen. Even the errors looks always the same.

Fifa isn't perfect as a whole and it has indeed the curse of patches turning the game upside down for the worse, but it's better in representing this things, at least nowadays.

 

[Chris Davies]

Played FIFA last night as Bolton in the FA Cup, against Crawley Town. They're a much worse team and they played like a much worse team. They had a less-than-80% passing accuracy at half time (first time I've ever seen that though, to be fair), giving the ball away constantly with long balls to nothing.

I had ten shots. Rushed them all, missed them all. Within five minutes of the second half, my striker got a second yellow card for mistiming his second desperate-to-get-the-ball-back tackle.

After that, Crawley had more of the ball, but still weren't good enough to beat my sturdy defence. Then, with not long left to go, my (other) striker sprinted into the box, only the keeper to beat, and their defender hacked me down.

Straight red card and a penalty for me. Which hit the crossbar and went out of play. 0-0 - a brilliant 0-0.

When was the last time you saw the AI get a red card in PES? Or concede a penalty. Let alone the other stuff. So how can we call it football? I don't think FIFA's perfect - but for me, it's the closer of the two games to it.

 

[its999maggle]

Played FIFA last night as Bolton in the FA Cup, against Crawley Town. They're a much worse team and they played like a much worse team. They had a less-than-80% passing accuracy at half time (first time I've ever seen that though, to be fair), giving the ball away constantly with long balls to nothing.

I had ten shots. Rushed them all, missed them all. Within five minutes of the second half, my striker got a second yellow card for mistiming his second desperate-to-get-the-ball-back tackle.

After that, Crawley had more of the ball, but still weren't good enough to beat my sturdy defence. Then, with not long left to go, my (other) striker sprinted into the box, only the keeper to beat, and their defender hacked me down.

Straight red card and a penalty for me. Which hit the crossbar and went out of play. 0-0 - a brilliant 0-0.

When was the last time you saw the AI get a red card in PES? Or concede a penalty. Let alone the other stuff. So how can we call it football? I don't think FIFA's perfect - but for me, it's the closer of the two games to it.

In 2018? Never.

 

[bluewomble88]

I feel exactly the same way. The physical play and shooting variety/error in FIFA is so much ahead of PES, that it is the main reason, why FIFA wins it for me (+ better goalkeepers). As you, I would like to point out some things from videos.

Physical play:



Frostbite simply works. You can see, that there are no players running through players, the collisions look good and real. I like that you can foul the GK (0:45) or foul with an arm (1:36). Also on 2:10, 5:00 or the little clip on 5:05 the collision system looks great. So I like the fact, that you can get a penalty when the def just runs into you like in 5:10.

Shooting/contextual error:



0:08 Totally missed shot, love how the player stops and desperately looks, where the ball is 0:16 heavy touch. 0:30 wanted to put it in the top corner, but overpowered it, my fault. In PES not possible, because even when you put the power bar all the way, to ball goes on goal (can see it in my PES videos, if you like). 0:46 realistic miss, not just because it is Benzema, but because he hit it somehow awkardly.
1:07 couldnt position himself good -> missed the ball. 1:16, 1:23 love these clearences that "gone wrong", 1:27 ok, not the best part of the pitch to shoot from, but from time to time, you have to try to score a "golazo". Not overpowered, but it was simply a hard shot to make so it went to the parking lot. Love it.
1:45 again, not overpowered, the strenght was ok, but he had the ball too much under his body, so it went to the stands.
1:48 another bad shot. Every shot cant be on goal, can it? 1:53 and another one, this time weak to the GK. Anothers at 2:00 and 2:10.
2:16 another heavy touch from a not easy high pass. 2:26 again tried to score a goal from an unprepared position, again to the parking lot.
2:48 tried to keep the ball on the pitch but the touch was bad and led to counterattack. 2:56 another realistic looking bad shot.
3:02 First clearance bad, so the second.

Another thing is that the defending is much more skill-based in FIFA. Yes, it is really hard to master it and frustrating in the beginning, but once you are good in it, you gonna love it.

Also full manual is a lot harder, again thats a good thing.

Thats it. I always were more a PES than FIFA player, but these realistic moments cant really be seen in PES 2017/2018. Cant really see Konami leveling up with EA in these aspects in recent future. Sadly. For me these are gamebreakers, so I will stick with FIFA again.

Are these on manual controls or something? I've spammed Fifa 18 so much this year and not seen anything along these lines at all.

 

[CarlitosCZE]

Yeah, all the videos are on manual controls.

 

[P34SEMM]

Played FIFA last night as Bolton in the FA Cup, against Crawley Town. They're a much worse team and they played like a much worse team. They had a less-than-80% passing accuracy at half time (first time I've ever seen that though, to be fair), giving the ball away constantly with long balls to nothing.

I had ten shots. Rushed them all, missed them all. Within five minutes of the second half, my striker got a second yellow card for mistiming his second desperate-to-get-the-ball-back tackle.

After that, Crawley had more of the ball, but still weren't good enough to beat my sturdy defence. Then, with not long left to go, my (other) striker sprinted into the box, only the keeper to beat, and their defender hacked me down.

Straight red card and a penalty for me. Which hit the crossbar and went out of play. 0-0 - a brilliant 0-0.

When was the last time you saw the AI get a red card in PES? Or concede a penalty. Let alone the other stuff. So how can we call it football? I don't think FIFA's perfect - but for me, it's the closer of the two games to it.

It like fifa is the pes of 20 years ago (end to end, lots of goals) and pes is the fifa of 20 years ago (as per your game above)
Amazing the turnaround really.
I’m looking forward to the PES demo but I’ll probably end up sticking with Fifa again.
I really hope I’m blown away by PES but I can still see flaws that have been there for years,

 

[hitmanuk]

That's funny that as I played Bolton v Fulham in an exhibition match on pes 18 , I saw lots of mis placed passes by the AI, didn't get a penalty but had 5 free kicks by half time and 2 bookings. I'm the first to criticise pes for fouls and such. The main difference in this pes v fifa debate is the current norm of Fifa is normally much better on release but then gets progressively worse and PES gets progressively better

 

[Chris Davies]

Am I the only one who sees how FIFA and PES have now completely swapped places?

FIFA 19's focus has been tactics - they've implemented a new tactics system (based on what PES did in the PS2 days), with extensive testing to ensure every tactic has a counter-tactic and that using the right players with the right tactic gives you an advantage.

PES fans? "Yeah it's still shit though. Gameplay is what matters. If all you care about is graphics and licenses you play FIFA."

PES 2019's focus has been graphics and licenses. Also, it feels better on the ball now. But PA1 still allows ping-pong passing, every player can pass and shoot with the same perfect contact on the ball and the same accuracy. Tactics don't matter (lots of 4-1-5 players online in the demo, because it works so well). The AI tries not to score when 1-on-1 with the keeper. On top of this, the advertised new features are a changing logo on the same default scoreboard.

PES fans? "OMG the graphics are incredible, and look at all the licenses, and there's more to come! It looks so real!"

It's a watershed moment for me.

 

[Ameppe]

To be fair i think it's because both games are trying to improve where they have always been more lacking. So, it makes sense that Fifa tries to improve tactics while it's also logic that Pes tries to improve licenses and graphics.

I don't care about what fans say, both Pes and Fifa diehard fans would praise their game no matter what.

 

[Tinker]

they've implemented a new tactics system (based on what PES did in the PS2 days), with extensive testing to ensure every tactic has a counter-tactic and that using the right players with the right tactic gives you an advantage.

How do you know they did all this?

 

[Filippo-Inzaghi]

Personally I don't understand this fight at all.. I would always pick the best game. For me its often the best offline experience.. But fifa have an advantage to be the game my friends are playing.

 

[Chris Davies]

To be fair i think it's because both games are trying to improve where they have always been more lacking. So, it makes sense that Fifa tries to improve tactics while it's also logic that Pes tries to improve licenses and graphics.

I see your point - but if all we care about is gameplay, and no gameplay is ever perfect, surely the focus for PES (which is supposed to be the "gameplay game") should always be gameplay, with everything else second.

Adam has said that a million times. No disrespect to him - he's not in charge of development. But this year I'm seeing barely any change to gameplay (yes it feels nice on the ball, but what does that matter when the AI is so poor for one, and the game is ping-pong online to boot).

Yes, by all means, improve graphics etc. and try to grab those FIFA guys. But it feels like they're exclusively trying to grab those FIFA guys. If that makes sense...

On a related topic:

If you don't like FIFA's gameplay, you don't - and it'll never be appealing (until they start from scratch, basically). I understand that. But the idea that PES makes controlling a human feel "right" or "natural" - you're using a small plastic stick on a controller. It is impossible to make that feel like you're "really" controlling a human being.

What's actually happening (in my opinion) is that we've played PES for 10+ years, if it feels like we're controlling a PES player, it feels natural, and therefore anything else feels unnatural.

If you can adapt to FIFA's gameplay - suddenly, you've got player attributes that matter, and tactics that matter (in theory but okay, let's see if that turns out to be true or not). You've got a wider range of animations, enabling you to do more with the ball. You get huge gameplay advantages.

I just hope they keep moving in this direction of "let's get serious".

How do you know they did all this?

There are a few blog posts etc. where the devs talk about extensive testing of the tactics so that none stands out as a "killer" tactic, and that every extreme has a counter-extreme, if that makes sense.

The guys playing the career mode beta seem to be saying it's true - though the experienced players are concerned that the difficulty levels are too easy (and that the AI doesn't take their chances).

It could all turn out to be bullshit, but there's enough beta players on Twitter saying "it makes a real difference" and "AI teams play with variation to their play, and change up tactics when things aren't working" for me to think it's true.

Reason being... FIFA 18's marketing spoke of "team styles" for AI teams, and in the beta lots of people (including myself) found out it didn't mean anything...

 

[Madmac79]

To me, Konami at this point simply don't think about gameplay in our terms.
The way I see it, they threw the mask and between 18 and this next chapter, implicitly announced their full online commitment. So they choose this kind of gameplay with low stats relevance and simple AI which is good for most online players apparently, and that's what only counts for them. The goalkeeper glued to the goaline makes for a great example.. I'm sure if you could specifically ask to a developer about this flaw, he'd respond something along the lines of "flaw? What are you talking about, you can make him come out on your own, it perfectly works" .

I have no idea how Fifa will come out to be. I despise EA model for other reasons. But here you have sliders, you have more stats relevance, this year you have a focus on AI tactics which still, may or may not come out as fine, but shows a will to provide even offline players with something concrete and polished. Good or bad that it is for ones tastes, I have the impression they are still trying to give customers a complete package in the gameplay environment.. something there are no excuses for Konami to NOT do.

 

[janguv]

this year I'm seeing barely any change to gameplay (yes it feels nice on the ball, but what does that matter when the AI is so poor for one, and the game is ping-pong online to boot).

I'm really not understanding how people can see "barely any" changes to gameplay in the PES 2019 demo. It's night and day to 2018 for me. The pace is varied depending on how you play (e.g., pressing makes it feel frantic, calm possession play makes it feel slower than normal); ball physics are great; player momentum makes a huge difference – can no longer use super cancel to intercept at pace, have to slow down; some great new animations affecting ability to get and keep the ball; turning circles nerfed; much more careful first touch system; through balls nowhere near as accurate, and PA1 passes much more sensitive to power input.

I could go on. Yes, that's all player AI pretty much, but it's a massive improvement. The COM AI issues are worrying, and it's not good enough, but overall the gameplay is very clearly a step up from last year.

Online is online. If you think FIFA won't be full of sweaty formations, playstyles, kids being dicks... You're welcome to find that out in time. It is – regrettably – a playing culture, based around exploits, winning at all costs, gloating, etc.

There are other ways to play PES online which don't involve matching up with people like that, where your formations are sensible and make a difference, and where you get to experience those gameplay improvements in a very positive playing environment.

 

[Chris Davies]

@janguv - if someone made the best car simulator in the world, and it felt incredibly lifelike...

But whenever you played it against the AI, their moves were robot-perfect no matter what car they used, bashed you off the track with no penalty, and on top of that they occasionally put the brakes on heading towards the finish line for no reason whatsoever...

And whenever you played online in a competitive mode, everyone played with so many assists on that they could go around corners pretty much automatically...

You could at least drive around on a nice countryside track and appreciate the physics, and the graphics maybe.

With a football game, what can you do? Pass the ball around and appreciate the feel, in a training game against no opposition?

All those changes you mention - yes, the game feels nicer on the ball. What does any of that matter when the AI plays ping-pong, always looks for a winger, and then passes back to a midfielder when given a 1-on-1? Not to mention how strictly they adhere to tactical instructions, to the point where players may as well not run into certain positions if the tactics are geared towards other areas of the pitch.

Okay, online you can play non-competitive games and you won't get the guys who play auto-football, constant pressure whores and all that. But the game shouldn't allow those "tactics" to work in the first place, especially not on default.

Your response may well be "yes, but they do, so we have to work around that". By not playing the key game modes? You can't filter myClub to get players who use your passing settings, from what I can remember - and PA0 dilutes attribute importance anyway, and we just shouldn't have to resort to playing full-manual in order for the game to work as a football match does. We didn't have to in the PS2 days. Now the game supposedly improves and we have to fix it by hamstringing ourselves and diluting player attributes? Why?

You may say "don't play myClub" - play endless friendlies instead? Is that fun? Or acceptable?

I don't get how anyone can support all of this.

 

[Tinker]

I'm really not understanding how people can see "barely any" changes to gameplay in the PES 2019 demo. It's night and day to 2018 for me. The pace is varied depending on how you play (e.g., pressing makes it feel frantic, calm possession play makes it feel slower than normal); ball physics are great; player momentum makes a huge difference – can no longer use super cancel to intercept at pace, have to slow down; some great new animations affecting ability to get and keep the ball; turning circles nerfed; much more careful first touch system; through balls nowhere near as accurate, and PA1 passes much more sensitive to power input.

Agree with everything (maybe except PA1 passes, that are still too accurate for me and I play PA0). I found pes2018 utterly terrible and played FIFA last year (at least until EA destroyed it with patches), but on pes2019 I already had games I haven't had in a long time on PES.

 

[P34SEMM]

@Chris Davies

You say - If you can adapt to FIFA's gameplay - suddenly, you've got player attributes that matter, and tactics that matter (in theory but okay, let's see if that turns out to be true or not). You've got a wider range of animations, enabling you to do more with the ball. You get huge gameplay advantages.

I really dont see or feel that when playing fifa. All players feel the same. The slow clumsy players can do what the best players can do. In PES you really notice the difference between top players and players weight.
When you put a 65 rated sub on for a 90 rated player in FIFA it doesn't matter. Your team wont be hindered by it.
Play the kids in the league cup - again, it wont matter. You wont feel much difference between them and first team.

I do agree with your comment that if you have never liked FIFAs gameplay you will never will until they start from scratch. FIFA although has all the bells and whistles has never felt quite right.

 

[janguv]

With a football game, what can you do? Pass the ball around and appreciate the feel, in a training game against no opposition?

All those changes you mention - yes, the game feels nicer on the ball. What does any of that matter when the AI plays ping-pong, always looks for a winger, and then passes back to a midfielder when given a 1-on-1? Not to mention how strictly they adhere to tactical instructions, to the point where players may as well not run into certain positions if the tactics are geared towards other areas of the pitch.

Okay, online you can play non-competitive games and you won't get the guys who play auto-football, constant pressure whores and all that. But the game shouldn't allow those "tactics" to work in the first place, especially not on default.

Your response may well be "yes, but they do, so we have to work around that". By not playing the key game modes? You can't filter myClub to get players who use your passing settings, from what I can remember - and PA0 dilutes attribute importance anyway, and we just shouldn't have to resort to playing full-manual in order for the game to work as a football match does. We didn't have to in the PS2 days. Now the game supposedly improves and we have to fix it by hamstringing ourselves and diluting player attributes? Why?

You may say "don't play myClub" - play endless friendlies instead? Is that fun? Or acceptable?

I don't get how anyone can support all of this.

I'm not talking about non-competitive friendlies. I'm talking about league structures with bespoke transfer markets, player databases, several divisions (including FUMA) across platforms, community nights, and more. The league I'm in, ProEvoNetwork, has existed on and off since PES4. On current gen, ever since myClub hit, we've seen a crossover of FIFA/FUT playing styles and playing culture online. It's sad, though to be expected. In the last four or so years, then, the best place to play PES online, competitively, has been in community-run leagues.

Of course you can say that the fans shouldn't have to do that, and that the game shouldn't *allow* for sweaty nonsense online in the first place. It's complicated. On the one hand, yeah, they can introduce proper PA filters and nerf PA levels for pros. They can also make the midfield matter more and reduce the space, so that people can't get away so easily with gegenfucking you or 4-1-5ing their way to victory. On the other, exploits always exist. Patch one thing up, and the weasels work something else out.

In short, in this instance, you're battling against a culture, not a developer, and there's very little we can do about it except to abide by different culture norms. Thankfully, at present, there are avenues for that – which aren't non-competitive friendlies.

Re PA levels online, and FUMA. I think the claim that PA0 renders stats unimportant is exaggerated. Have been playing a lot of PA0 online in the demo, and definitely notice a tighter range of passing error with some good passers. Not to mention, of course, stats such as balance, dribbling, etc., which impact in turn how easy it is to pull off certain passes. It's possible to play PA1 only online in Divisions and myClub. A filter exists, but Konami are typically obscure about how it works. The general understanding is that it works in "sweeps", so that if it doesn't find someone on the same assistance level in the first sweep, in the second it'll expand the search criteria. Not ideal, but can cancel and re-search, etc. Again: not good enough, but it's something.

I would love nothing more than for Konami to nerf PA1, introduce proper filters, address the myriad of AI problems. I think they've advanced positively in some of these areas this year. Not enough to make myClub etc. a very enjoyable experience, but I largely suspect that no matter the changes, it will always be overrun with dicks. At least there are leagues with a positive and fun culture which exist, and have existed for a long time.

 

[janguv]

Agree with everything (maybe except PA1 passes, that are still too accurate for me and I play PA0). I found pes2018 utterly terrible and played FIFA last year (at least until EA destroyed it with patches), but on pes2019 I already had games I haven't had in a long time on PES.

I would say that I don't mean PA1 is yet good enough. It's still very hard to accidentally play the ball into space (though it happens with some stray through balls), and you can't intentionally lay it off into space, as you can on PA0. But there's a clearly noticeable nerfing effect comparing it to 2018's PA1, and much of that, in my view, is to do with the sensitivity to power, which feels (in general) more consistent.

I actually enjoyed much of 2018 on the ball, but I think it's interesting that some of the people who really liked 2018 are turning away from 2019 because they don't like the new weight, first touch, riskier dribbling, etc. It's more evidence, at least, that there are genuine gameplay changes between these editions.

 

[rockstrongo]

For the first time in ages,a constructive debate around both games.
Very nice to see.

I gave up on Pes 18 very early, wouldn't take the massive amount of chipped through balls.
I can deal with that if I'm playing Vs Barcelona (the actually did that in their first game of the season this weekend pretty much every attack)

But having it from Udinese and Crotone?
Deal breaker!

Went back in may and played the rest of my first ML season (had been in hibernation since November)
And the game felt much better,not as much tiki taka etc as before.
Very playable and better than I remember (patches made it better)
But positioning is still a massive problem.

As for FIFA 18.
Started late with it,probably in November,and I still remember how fast that game played,and how direct the CPU played,no build up whatsoever.
Extremely boring (played as Bournemouth/Palace)

Then I did what I've done on 17,a game I actually liked a lot,some flaws,but liked my first 3-4 seasons on it.
I decided to go out of the extremely over powered Premier League,a league that EA simply thinks are superior to any other (football tourists worldwide booing me right now) I stated a career in BL,just like I did on 17 and had two very good season.
But in the end I stopped playing 18 to.
There's something not right with FIFA's gameplay and me after a while.
Gets dull when the bells and whistles are worn out.
But I'd prefer FIFA 18 vs Pes 18 if I only had the choice of those two games.
But since I've decided to play older games instead,don't really have to bother with any of them.

This year I'm not buying Pes,reason for that Is crystal clear for me,don't really need to go into that here,spammed the 19 thread enough with my thoughts.

Will I buy FIFA 19?
If it's a hell of a lot better than 18, probably!
But it has to feel and play tons better than 18 for me to do it.
Actually like FIFA online a lot though.

 

[mfmaxpower]

@Chris Davies

You say - If you can adapt to FIFA's gameplay - suddenly, you've got player attributes that matter, and tactics that matter (in theory but okay, let's see if that turns out to be true or not). You've got a wider range of animations, enabling you to do more with the ball. You get huge gameplay advantages.

I really dont see or feel that when playing fifa. All players feel the same. The slow clumsy players can do what the best players can do. In PES you really notice the difference between top players and players weight.
When you put a 65 rated sub on for a 90 rated player in FIFA it doesn't matter. Your team wont be hindered by it.
Play the kids in the league cup - again, it wont matter. You wont feel much difference between them and first team.

I do agree with your comment that if you have never liked FIFAs gameplay you will never will until they start from scratch. FIFA although has all the bells and whistles has never felt quite right.

This is ludicrous. There's a very good reason why elite players cost a fortune in the FUT markets - because a team made up of Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar etc is far superior to a team made up of lesser players, let alone a team with players rated in the 70s or 60s.

Likewise, in my beta 19 CM with Southampton, I brought in some highly rated youngsters - like Foden from Man City and Weah from PSG - and they were absolutely rubbish for me in the EPL.

Years ago player individuality without a doubt was a massive weakness for FIFA but in the last 5 years or so, they've made some excellent strides making players feel - and more importantly perform - differently. In fact, it's at the point now where I give the edge to FIFA over PES in terms of how players feel. For example, playing as Salah in the FIFA beta, he felt more like the real thing than the version in PES's demo.

But even more importantly, PES has gone backwards in how player stats individualize players, and I notice far more individuality in FIFA when it comes to first touches, first time passing, shots and even dribbling. This would have sounded ridiculous only five or so years ago but now, for me, the games have essentially swapped positions when it comes to player individuality.

 

[P34SEMM]

I just want to see teams and players playing like they do in real life.
When I face Messi, Ronaldo, Salah, Hazard I want to feel like they can tear me apart at any minute.
If I play against a direct physical team I want it to feel like I’ve been in a battle.
I’m really hoping with new tactics in Fifa it gives me that as pes doesn’t.
There’s no point in Fifa looking great, having tons of detail if when the whistles blows you have 40 odd games in a season that are exactly the same.

 

[elfie]

Been going from one game to the other, currently playing fifa again.
Both games have great things but both games are missing things.

I currently hate pes18's constant perfect backheels. On the other hand I love the game's pace, crossing and headers.

Fifa seems more complete, but is really too damn fast, even on slow.
Currently playing it in broadcast mode which somehows feels slower, and the player models look better close up.

I read the pes2019 section every day see that playing against the ai, which i do since i never play online, is still shit.
Constant low crossing, and i have seen those examples of players being able to go 1 on 1 against the goalie but opt for a pass instead. So i'm not going to buy pes this year.

Now i can only hope that fifa 19 is any good.

 

[Chris Davies]

Been going from one game to the other, currently playing fifa again.
Both games have great things but both games are missing things.

I currently hate pes18's constant perfect backheels. On the other hand I love the game's pace, crossing and headers.

Fifa seems more complete, but is really too damn fast, even on slow.
Currently playing it in broadcast mode which somehows feels slower, and the player models look better close up.

I read the pes2019 section every day see that playing against the ai, which i do since i never play online, is still shit.
Constant low crossing, and i have seen those examples of players being able to go 1 on 1 against the goalie but opt for a pass instead. So i'm not going to buy pes this year.

Now i can only hope that fifa 19 is any good.

In exactly the same boat over here, my friend.

 

[P34SEMM]

Been going from one game to the other, currently playing fifa again.
Both games have great things but both games are missing things.

I currently hate pes18's constant perfect backheels. On the other hand I love the game's pace, crossing and headers.

Fifa seems more complete, but is really too damn fast, even on slow.
Currently playing it in broadcast mode which somehows feels slower, and the player models look better close up.

I read the pes2019 section every day see that playing against the ai, which i do since i never play online, is still shit.
Constant low crossing, and i have seen those examples of players being able to go 1 on 1 against the goalie but opt for a pass instead. So i'm not going to buy pes this year.

Now i can only hope that fifa 19 is any good.

With PES19 its another case of "so close" and its been that way for last 10 years.
I cant believe they didn't test the AI - The constant spamming of the low cross and keepers routed to line is a complete game breaker. Also silly things like goal celebrations (the pause after scoring) are a real immersion killer and Master League being broke.
Fifa will 100% nail every tiny detail that us football fans love and want to see in a game but like you say slow is still way too fast. Fifa for me feels a bit flat on the pitch. Im hoping with the new tactics Fifa 19 nails it.
Theres so much I love on PES19 but the cons outweigh the pros at the moment.

 

[Ameppe]

With PES19 its another case of "so close" and its been that way for last 10 years.

Honestly when the AI is so fundamentally broken in Pes 2019, it's not a case of so close.
This year it has been released as quickly as possible without even testing it and assuring the bare minimum to make it playable and fun against AI.

I would say this year is far less close than it was last year to a great product. I think Pes 2018 in general is the better game, no doubt about it.