FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

Re: FIFA 12

I'm pretty sure Spike, who is a data reviewer for Bristol City, said it's still happening? Certainly he was the one who raised that it was a problem when we went to Canada last year.

Plac, did you just pull those figures off FIFA or from what you submitted as correct? Are you an editor or a reviewer? Interesting that there is a difference of opinion between two people involved in the same programme.
 
Re: FIFA 12

romagnoli said:
Plac, did you just pull those figures off FIFA or from what you submitted as correct? Are you an editor or a reviewer? Interesting that there is a difference of opinion between two people involved in the same programme.
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From Fifa 11. I'm a data editor :)
 
Re: FIFA 12

nerf said:
It's a factor, but at the same time I don't buy that completely because they don't use the full range of the scale. How often do you see ratings in the 1-25 area? That's a whole quarter of the scale that barely seems to be used at all.
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I've always assumed it was because a player with a ball control (or other important attribute rating) that was at the extreme lower end of the scale would never be able to make it at any of the clubs in the game! Maybe if they added some Sunday League teams, then you'd see the lowest quarter of the scale being used!

Seriously though, it all comes down to differences in what you perceive the ratings scale to represent. The way FIFA does it makes sense enough when you consider the 1-100 rating scale to not represent the skill potential of all professional footballers but the range of all people. Thus it's not so much an issue about EA not using all of the scale because the lower end of the scale - say a 20 OVR player or a player with a dribbling rating of 7 - would never realistically make a professional football squad.

In the end, EA not using all of the numerical scale is irrelevant. What's important is ensuring there is enough of a noticeable difference within the range that is used to sufficiently reflect realistic individuality. And much of this has little to do with numerical ratings but rather gameplay mechanics, like a more realistic relationship between running speed and ball control, making the ball an individual entity within the gameplay, incorporating a two-footed dribbling system, etc.

FIFA could switch to a 1-10 rating system, or one that uses letters A to F, or like you suggest they could use all of the 1-100 scale, but in the end it really doesn't matter what scale they use if the gameplay mechanics needed to properly illustrate individuality are not sufficient or even non-existent.
 
Re: FIFA 12

mfmaxpower said:
I've always assumed it was because a player with a ball control (or other important attribute rating) that was at the extreme lower end of the scale would never be able to make it at any of the clubs in the game! Maybe if they added some Sunday League teams, then you'd see the lowest quarter of the scale being used!
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Well you could say the player with the worst dribbling in the game would have a rating of 1, and the player with the best dribbling would be at 100 (or 99). They could use 20-98, or 11-97, or 5-2034, and get identical results. As you say, what matters is how the range that IS used, is represented.

I've been meaning to respond to Jimmy's post, but I think I've missed my opportunity (and I'm going out for birthday drinks in a bit :D). In short, I agree with almost all of the ingredients of his post, but not the measures. The bit I disagree with is, I do think EA do have the ability to represent individuality to around the same level Konami can, though their relatively young team are at a disadvantage not having had the ten years or so of online-free, single-player centric focus. In fact I think a lot of the ways that EA try to design the game mean that they just can't use the same techniques that Konami do - FIFA is actually coded to remove the sort of scripting PES uses, but then buggers up so many other areas that it ends up feeling scripted anyway.
 
Re: FIFA 12

I fully understand EA point. The casual market is much better to invest in for such a high budget game which requires them to make a huge profit! The amount of money that goes into fifa must be crazy! When you consider licensing costs, how much it costs to run the tech used to make the game etc.. Must be ten fold of Konami's budget!

So it's better to make a game which appeals to everyone which makes perfect business sense! So.. why do we bang our heads against the wall wanting the game to be a genuinely realistic representation of football, why?

TBH should we instead just enjoy for the arcade fun for when your high on weed game it is? Hey, cold your girlfriend or her friends play PES, hell no!

The one 'bad' thing which annoys me is the hype train they spout on about it being the most realsitic game blah pro passing blah etc.. which is the usual EA crap which they have been selling us since god knows when. I mean this picture they released, :LOL: is that it? Whats the point of releasing something this early anyway?

This is my stance atm. I expect the game to be as usual arcadey with player stats meaning next to nothing apart from with Strength and pace with first touches to all be perfect! But what i would like for it not to be a bug infested mess or horribly unbalanced to favor making the same attacks over and over again.

A blend between FIFA 08 and 2010 World Cup game would be great! That's at beat all i can see them doing really.
 
Re: FIFA 12

Jimmy G-Force said:
It isnt if your Konami, but EA have yet show they are capable of simulating individualism. Not once. I personally dont believe their dev's are even capable. EA have been left so far behind in this regard it's not even funny. Alternatively, lets for argument sake say they have the programming capabilities and a true understanding of footballing fundamentals- why bother ? They have phenomenal motion-capture technology that has enough magical sparkle to hood-wink the average gamer into believing visuals equate to realism. And that's the bottom-line. They have a highly successful footballing franchise, so why change a winning formula. I've stood by this belief for years, and nothing has changed to make me think any differently.

Looking at the bigger EA picture though, all their sports games are produced with the very same idiology in place. Can anyone seriously name any EA Sports title that doesnt follow the very same principle ? It's all glossy, fully licenced, and very, very pick-up-and-play. There is nothing deep or simulated in any EA Sports title I have ever played. Even Fight Night, which I loved. But hey, they sell bucketloads, so again, why change ?
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You rarely come to this section but that pretty much sums up EA Sports...

Madden and NBA Live both also seem notorious for their lack of accurate player individuality/realism.
If the games were made by anyone else, without exclusive licensing, they would probably be regarded as shit.

As it is, FIFA is one of the most popular video game series' there is, because it's "the done thing"... If you talk to people in the real world and you get onto the topic of gaming, they just ask if you play FIFA, I only know five people who have owned PES at all, only one of them owning PES 11.

It's almost like in the same way a vacuum cleaner is a "hoover", a football video game is a "FIFA"...
 
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Re: FIFA 12

They all have the same ideology, i'll give you that. They're kind of clever in their ability to deceive (or as Jimmy put 'hoodwink') the majority of people and reviewers alike into believing that they're stellar titles. Most of the time it takes a while to realise what the game-play problems are so they usually end up getting good reviews and decent first impressions in demos too (NHL, FIFA, MADDEN ETC). They've got a good formula there, enough to guarantee massive sales.

Something that baffles me is that a lot of people seem to lack critical functions, or sheer perception, too when it comes to these type of games. They just can't see the wood from the trees. There are genuinely people who love FIFA and therefore its ideology, even football fanatics who must truly understand that this the game doesn't really resemble football. For some the initial gloss of the game never wears off. They're swimming through the same pile of dirt but rarely question themselves as to why the water is all brown and sticky.
 
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Re: FIFA 12

Rob92 said:
You rarely come to this section but that pretty much sums EA Sports...

Madden and NBA Live both also seem notorious for their lack of accurate player individuality/realism.
If the games were made by anyone else, without exclusive licensing, they would probably be regarded as shit.

As it is, FIFA is one of the most popular video game series' there is, because it's "the done thing"... If you talk to people in the real world and you get onto the topic of gaming, they just ask if you play FIFA, I only know five people who have owned PES at all, only one of them owning PES 11.

It's almost like in the same way a vacuum cleaner is a "hoover", a football video game is a "FIFA"...
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I'm happy with my Dyson Rob. :)
 
Re: FIFA 12

Wow, I agree with Ea, there's not much they can add to their game right now.

That's why I will be focusing on PES, hoping they indeed have something to add.
 
Re: FIFA 12

EA has been focusing to much on the money lately rather then producing a decent game a further decline is inevitable. I can understand why they dont bother there's no real competition, because Konami has been sleeping for the past couple of years. But even releasing a game without bugs is asking to much from EA at this point it seems. The way Fifa is going I could see Pes taking the crown back if they could release some quality games back to back or perhaps even sooner but they would have to come up with something revolutionary. When you look at the long term future of football games in general it doesn't look to hopeful. With Konami and their incapabilities and EA not caring enough a new company producing football games of some quality is especially now very much needed
 
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Re: FIFA 12

Placebo said:
Fast players get fast attributes*, look at L1 Wednesday (who I of course edit)

Jermaine Johnson - Speed: 89 Acceleration: 84
Nathan Modest - Speed: 88 Acceleration: 82
Jon Otsemobor - Speed: 88 Acceleration: 83
Giles Coke - Speed: 84 Acceleration: 82

*or should if the data editor did their job right ;)

In all the years I've been a data editor I have never, ever been told "you must slow down these lower league players", it's a complete myth that it happens, the problem is simply the lack of available data for the lower leagues, it's really, really easy to check the speeds of Prem players as footage of every single Prem fixture is available, I download and watch 10 Prem fixtures a weekend no problem, for the lower leagues it's much tougher.
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Hah bit off-topic but I had to pick you up on this. Giles Coke 80+ pace?? Not a chance! He's no slouch but I'd never describe him as quick!

The problem with the lower league physicality attributes is they bump up the overall by a big %, so editors always tend to tone it down in respect to that. Shows you another 'limitation' to the Ovrl figure.
 
Re: FIFA 12

Escobar said:
EA has been focusing to much on the money lately rather then producing a decent game a further decline is inevitable. I can understand why they dont bother there's no real competition, because Konami has been sleeping for the past couple of years. But even releasing a game without bugs is asking to much from EA at this point it seems. The way Fifa is going I could see Pes taking the crown back if they could release some quality games back to back or perhaps even sooner but they would have to come up with something revolutionary. When you look at the long term future of football games in general it doesn't look to hopeful. With Konami and their incapabilities and EA not caring enough a new company producing football games of some quality is especially now very much needed
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I honestly dont see Konami ever taking the 'sales' crown. Never. And the reason is simple, they dont cater for the masses. And I dont believe they ever will, or least I certainly hope they wont. PES is getting alot harder, alot more technical, with a much steeper and deeper learning curve. That does not appeal to the casual gamer. It's quite the opposite in fact.

The term 'Crown' is subjective, unless it relates only to cold, hard sales. And if that is the case, we need to change the term to 'Treasure Chest'.
 
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Re: FIFA 12

I'd love to see a run-down of FIFA vs PES sales over the last decade.

I know FIFA has probably outsold it every year, but I imagine the extent has increased in the last couple of additions. From about 2003-2007 everyone I knew played PES, only those who were really casual fans of the game bought FIFA. But since FIFA 10 the opposite is true, I don't know one person anymore that plays PES, and even people not really into football pick up FIFA.

While Konami will always have the Japan market, that dip has to got to hurt, and probably why they changed it up for PES 11. But even then I still can't get people to give it ago, or they'll give the demo a quick go over then return to FIFA.

What it comes down to is the 'core' support I think. Those that are into football games but not complete simulation goons. These are the ones that influence the mass support, and were the catalyst for the shift from FIFA being 'a kid's game' to the preferential choice.

I also agree about EA's ruthlessness at churning out solid but shallow games. That look good on the surface but don't hold up after a couple of weeks. It's an excellent business model and one that'll mean FIFA will never become a immersive football game. Rutter will promise gameplay innovation when really everything will be tweaked, a couple of 'back of the box' features will be added, with a gloss of paint over the top to deceive.

The day the licensing monopoly is broken is when we'll see some real innovation and competition. It's disgusting how one company can buy the entire rights for a whole genre, knowing they've earned the market that will not even look at a game without official names. I'm sure 2k sports have challenged this without respect to the NFL game, so hopefully the same will apply to football as well.


Hope that's coherent, rambled a bit.
 
Re: FIFA 12

Jimmy G-Force said:
I honestly dont see Konami ever taking the 'sales' crown. Never. And the reason is simple, they dont cater for the masses. And I dont believe they ever will, or least I certainly hope they wont. PES is getting alot harder, alot more technical, with a much steeper and deeper learning curve. That does not appeal to the casual gamer. It's quite the opposite in fact.

The term 'Crown' is subjective, unless it relates only to cold, hard sales. And if that is the case, we need to change the to term to 'Treasure Chest'.
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Perhaps my point didn't come across well because english isnt my first language excuse me for me for that. I saw Pes back in the day being referred to sometimes as "the king" So I meant with crown having the far superiour gameplay again in a couple of years. In term of sales if Konami keeps releasing good games and EA keeps making bad ones resulting in eventually alot becoming fed up with the game I could see alot going to Pes. While pes 6 wasn't as realistic as the previous game I think it would have sold well even if the game would have been more like pes 5

"PES 6 has managed to outsell FIFA 07 in its debut week by over 20%, at least in the U.K"
 
Re: FIFA 12

Pes 6 was coming off the critically acclaimed PES 5 and it was well known that the next gen version of Fifa 2007 had about 4 leagues aswell as even self admittance that the game wasn't really finished. Fifa 2007 stands as an example of how well Fifa would do without all its licenses.
 
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Re: FIFA 12

FIFA 2003 to about 2007 was so laughably terrible. It's amazing how EA got away with it tbh, and they'd still score well in magazines
 
Re: FIFA 12

screenshot = meh. always the same each year EA. photoshopped to make it look better than it actually does in-game.:RANT:
 
Re: FIFA 12

Northzzz said:
Pes 6 was coming off the critically acclaimed PES 5
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Yes if the previous game did well the hype will carry on to the next one. What if Pes 2012 were to be a massive improvement and Fifa 12 would turn out to be just as bad as Fifa 11 if not worse.

Northzzz said:
and it was well known that the next gen version of Fifa 2007 had about 4 leagues aswell as even self admittance that the game wasn't really finished. Fifa 2007 stands as an example of how well Fifa would do without all its licenses.
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Pes 6 was also lacking in several departments Do you think the only reason fifa 2007 didn't sell wel was because of the license issue or because the gameplay was terrible for years?

I feel though Were going slightly off track here for EA to make a decent game the only way I could see it happening is If Konami or some other company could make it competitive again when it comes to sales. In the end though both are just games. I'll have no problem to wait and see what tomorrow brings
 
Re: FIFA 12

Vieirinha said:
PES6 outsold FIFA 06 in UK.... After that it went downhill for KONAMI...
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PES2008 was a big mistake for konami. one i dont feel they have come back from yet. smoething is still not right about the way PES feels.

FIFA on the other hand is all about pace and strength. no other stats seem to matter which is very annoying.
 
Re: FIFA 12

Jamezinho said:
Some things never change. FIFA will always be FIFA.
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It's a shame really...

I never realised just how bad the problem actually was until I searched YouTube for a few videos recently... All of that Hjerpseth's videos are ridiculous, as well as those "Goal of the Day" ones, plus there's bound to be hundreds (if not thousands) of videos just as crazy.

Obviously there will be similar goals in PES (especially before the patch, when rainbow flicks were too easy) but usually the goals are within the realms of possibility, and the tricks are generally realistic-looking...

The simple fact that EA have the selection of tricks they do in the game is proof enough of their idea of football.
 
Re: FIFA 12

polakis said:
True but this happens one time.Can you do it? I cant personally...And i play fifa for years and i am in top50 in the world on manual leaderboards...
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It's not exactly uncommon, as I said before, there's LOADS of crazy goals like that on YouTube, and probably the EA site too.

I could fill a whole page with them, but here's few more;

YouTube - Fifa Goal Of The Day Ep.13 | iIVIatty

YouTube - Fifa Goal of the Day Ep.69 | MASSv

YouTube - Fifa Goal of the Day Ep.63 | KSIOlajideBT

This stuff shouldn't even be possible... If someone on PES just tries tricks all game, you can just back off and wait for them to fail. In FIFA it seems like a massive advantage if you're good at it, which is bullshit.
 
How does everybody feel about Fifa 09? A lot gets said about 08, 10 & 11 but rarely 09. I was considering playing it yesterday (i played WE9LE instead though) because when i owned it i don't remember having any major qualms with it when on semi controls. Fast players were boss and that was a bit of an issue but i much preferred fast players being boss compared to Fifa 10's reaction to make strong/tall players the best assets to a team. I haven't played it in a while, perhaps i have forgotten other issues with the game.
 
Re: FIFA 12

polakis said:
True but this happens one time.Can you do it? I cant personally...And i play fifa for years and i am in top50 in the world on manual leaderboards...
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If real life was manual I would be playing in Barca instead of Xavi.... :COOL:
 
@rob92

all your posts are posts of fifa hater. i could put here dozens of videos that show pes stupidty and gameplay issues. but i won't do that. opposite form you i try to be objective as i can and to admit that both games have their ups and downs.

did you forget how stupid pes goalies are form pes 2008 'till now? how many stupid, funny and unrealistic goals you can score and concede? konami had four games, dozens of patches and they never managed to fix goalies. but they didn't. and it is one of the major issues in trying to make pc game to look realistic.

so stop barking at fifa.
 
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