FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

TikTikTikTikTik said:
Why is it so complicated to understand?

A simple example of manual passing that is stat based;

A longball with the user imput being perfect (angle and power, which is very possible with practice (even if I'm not a manual player)) results in the following passes with the respective players;
Sirhoofalot himself, Carradona = 100% imput (perfect power and pass from user) with Carra's 50% accuracy means the ball will fall within 20m of the "crosshair"*.
Same pass, same imput with Alonso results in 95% accuracy which means the ball will fall within 5m of the "crosshair".

* The crosshair being an imagined one that is the result / location on the pitch whic results from the imput from the gamer, i.e. where he is aiming and powering the pass to.

Stats would therefor mean that if you want to try an elaborate longball with Carra you only have a 50% chance that you can pull it off because....well he's crap at passing. With Alonso it's 95% because he's great. Imput and power is exactly the same from the gamer, but stats manipulate the outcome. Not too complicated surely?

The basis for controls should be;
Assisted; power is automatic, aiming locks on to nearest player from controller angle
Semi; power is semi assisted and aiming locks on when 75% angle accuracy is reached
Manual; power and angle is in full control of gamer.

For all settings stats determines succesrate and accuracy.
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Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward concept.

Controlling a player with all 100 stats, manual should mean the ball goes exactly where you aim, but playing the exact same pass with a player with lower stats means the ball shouldn't go exactly where you aim. Lower stats simply means a greater likelihood of a reducton in accuracy of your fully manual pass.

All well and good when playing human v human, but not so when playing with cpu as EA seem incapable of introducing any sort of error into cpu players.
 
winston said:
Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward concept.

Controlling a player with all 100 stats, manual should mean the ball goes exactly where you aim, but playing the exact same pass with a player with lower stats means the ball shouldn't go exactly where you aim. Lower stats simply means a greater likelihood of a reducton in accuracy of your fully manual pass.

All well and good when playing human v human, but not so when playing with cpu as EA seem incapable of introducing any sort of error into cpu players.
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Well, all 100 stats shouldn't mean the ball goes exactly where you aim. There are still things which should be more difficult than that - 180 degree passes should have a degree of inaccuracy with any player, for example.
 
Yeah, 100 for long passing should be the most accurate you can be in the way that 100 for pace doesn't mean you can run at the speed of light!
 
Rodelero said:
Well, all 100 stats shouldn't mean the ball goes exactly where you aim. There are still things which should be more difficult than that - 180 degree passes should have a degree of inaccuracy with any player, for example.
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Well, duh....I would hope that some things are so obvious that they don't have to be spelled out....but then again, this is EA, so yes, good point (in case EA are reading this)
 
For me, fully manual control, even attribute-based, should just be an optional modifier as it is in PES rather than a control scheme in it's own right.

In real life, aiming any strike of the ball (pass or shot) is an instinctive and natural action - even for me, and I'm by my own admission not a great footballer - imagine what this is like for professional footballers who have been playing competitive football all of their lives and training nearly every day.

Let sports games be (as Jamezinho said) about timing, tactics and reading the play - leave games like COD to test your gamepad precision and dexterity.
 
So those of us who enjoy manual controls, for whom the fun is enhanced by the challenge and the satisfaction and the freedom that you can get from that setting, should have to press and hold an additional modifier button all the time because... why?

kobayashi said:
YouTube - Fifa 06 - Xbox 360
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3:59, look at that. A goddamn out-of-play quick subs/tactics menu! Where the hell did that go?
 
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Again, I don't disagree that right now semi-assisted is the more natural fit for today's controllers, designed for responsiveness more than precision, and with the sort of football game we'll have for the next few years. But it's very short sighted to say that there will never be a time when manual controls will outdo assisted/semi assists for realism.

Where have all the visionaries gone? SMH.
 
nerf said:
So those of us who enjoy manual controls, for whom the fun is enhanced by the challenge and the satisfaction and the freedom that you can get from that setting, should have to press and hold an additional modifier button all the time because... why?
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I did say "for me", as in my opinion.

Maybe for unranked matches and offline play, the fully manual setup could be retained, but constant manual control does not contribute to a better tactical simulation of football and therefore has no place in a game that attempts to be such in my opinion.
 
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Rob92 said:
For me, fully manual control, even attribute-based, should just be an optional modifier as it is in PES rather than a control scheme in it's own right.

In real life, aiming any strike of the ball (pass or shot) is an instinctive and natural action - even for me, and I'm by my own admission not a great footballer - imagine what this is like for professional footballers who have been playing competitive football all of their lives and training nearly every day.

Let sports games be (as Jamezinho said) about timing, tactics and reading the play - leave games like COD to test your gamepad precision and dexterity.
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PES's manual control is an optional modifier? :LMAO: Afaic, PES's manual passing sits far more uncomfortably with the game's scripted philosophy. The juxtaposition of "supposed" stat based (scripted) gameplay and full manual is a complete mess in PES. With FIFA, the contrast between manual and assisted is far less stark and unnatural.

And, for me, the idea that your accuracy and skill with a gamepad absolutely shouldn't be rewarded, rather than the current garbage where some skilless noob playing as Barca can just pick up and click X a few times a win. What's the point in learning the controls when winning is all about picking the team with the best stats. This is precislely why FIFA fails and online games all end up as Barca v Man U. Why choose to play as Stoke when the opposiiton WILL win as Barca, because the stats say Barca will win?
 
winston said:
Well, duh....I would hope that some things are so obvious that they don't have to be spelled out....but then again, this is EA, so yes, good point (in case EA are reading this)
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Sorry if I was being overly pedantic.

Rob92 said:
For me, fully manual control, even attribute-based, should just be an optional modifier as it is in PES rather than a control scheme in it's own right.

In real life, aiming any strike of the ball (pass or shot) is an instinctive and natural action - even for me, and I'm by my own admission not a great footballer - imagine what this is like for professional footballers who have been playing competitive football all of their lives and training nearly every day.

Let sports games be (as Jamezinho said) about timing, tactics and reading the play - leave games like COD to test your gamepad precision and dexterity.
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Why does it matter if they give people the option to take more control than less? Having a manual modifier isn't exactly ideal, it means you have to put more and more functions into less and less buttons. PES has quite a lot of problematic control overlap on the shoulders, which still screw me up even if

There is no decent reason why a well designed manual system shouldn't be part of the game, plenty of people want it. It doesn't infringe upon assisted at all: all it means, is that if someone is competent enough to take more control, they can.

No-one is going to be able to take advantage of manual BECAUSE of their precision and dexterity: they'll be able to take advantage of manual if they have precision and dexterity AND they can see how to utilise this intelligently. Manual's advantage over assisted can only always be its freedom.
 
winston said:
PES's manual control is an optional modifier? :LMAO:
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Yes, it is.
You hold an extra "modifier" button (LT/L2) while executing a pass to make it manual. You don't have to use it if you don't want to, therefore it's optional.

winston said:
Afaic, PES's manual passing sits far more uncomfortably with the game's scripted philosophy. The juxtaposition of "supposed" stat based (scripted) gameplay and full manual is a complete mess in PES. With FIFA, the contrast between manual and assisted is far less stark and unnatural.
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I'm not quite sure what point you're getting at but I'll make a stab in the dark and try to respond.

The idea of manual passing does not go against what PES stands for - the way it's implemented in PES'11 takes into account player attributes so it therefore doesn't detract from the simulation approach.
I can consistently play diagonal long balls over with pinpoint precision as Xavi or Pirlo, yet with a technically poor defender, the same attempted pass will most likely look more like a clearance! Intricate manual through balls also can't be performed with the poorer players with the accuracy and consistency of the top players.
This is how manual passing should work in FIFA.

I don't see what you mean about manual being a mess in PES - sometimes I see player switching errors when the game doesn't clock on to who the intended recipient is, but the actual execution of the passes seems fine to me.

winston said:
And, for me, the idea that your accuracy and skill with a gamepad absolutely shouldn't be rewarded, rather than the current garbage where some skilless noob playing as Barca can just pick up and click X a few times a win. What's the point in learning the controls when winning is all about picking the team with the best stats. This is precislely why FIFA fails and online games all end up as Barca v Man U. Why choose to play as Stoke when the opposiiton WILL win as Barca, because the stats say Barca will win?
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Why would you expect to be on equal ground with someone if you're playing as Stoke against Barcelona?

Of course you should be getting smashed with ease with such a gulf in class between the sides - that same match in real life would most likely not end well for Stoke...

The problem is the difficulty of getting evenly matched games online if you prefer to use lesser sides.
 
Rodelero said:
Why does it matter if they give people the option to take more control than less? Having a manual modifier isn't exactly ideal, it means you have to put more and more functions into less and less buttons. PES has quite a lot of problematic control overlap on the shoulders, which still screw me up even if

There is no decent reason why a well designed manual system shouldn't be part of the game, plenty of people want it. It doesn't infringe upon assisted at all: all it means, is that if someone is competent enough to take more control, they can.

No-one is going to be able to take advantage of manual BECAUSE of their precision and dexterity: they'll be able to take advantage of manual if they have precision and dexterity AND they can see how to utilise this intelligently. Manual's advantage over assisted can only always be its freedom.
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Most of the time manual control isn't necessary though - why would you want more freedom over a standard pass to feet or into the stride of the recipient? The odd bit of difference compared to an assisted pass is hardly going to alter the flow of an attacking move in your favour.

What about shooting? No footballer ever intentionally aims the ball wide of the goal (obviously), yet this is essentially what your player is doing if you're a few degrees off with your manual aim. In football, players either place the ball in the corners, just try to hit the target, lash the ball powerfully in a general area of the goal, or perform an instinctive reaction finish.

All of this can be done with assisted controls, yet full manual, if anything, would detract from the realism of shooting.
If the ball deflects unexpectedly to your striker and you quickly press the shot button, it's unlikely that you're going to be aiming the analog stick towards the goal. On manual this would result in a strange, unrealistic missed shot aimed completely the wrong way, yet on assisted it would result in an instinctive snapshot towards goal, much more realistic.

FIFA will always have full manual control as an option now though anyway, they won't remove it.
 
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Gab_ said:
Maybe if we write Semi-Manual everyone will understand it better? Which is manual aim as in you tell the football player to try to put 'this' much power and 'this' direction on the pass, and then it is up to the football player's abilities to get it there.

Kind of like in real life, you walk out on the pitch and paint a red mark on the ground and tell Rooney, for example, to try to hit that spot. This means that the "aim" is manual, but then it is completely up to Rooney himself to actually get it there.
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Gab_ said:
It's because people say "fully manual" I think.
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I agree. The arguments are based on the term manual itself. You read "manual" and you think "oh no stats are void". But then again it doesn't really mean that. It depends on what game you're playing.

The problem is, most of us know that Fifa isn't heavily stat based; it is only to an extent. That's why when combining both "manual" and "Fifa", stat-based or individuality supporters will not tolerate it. To them it just means even lesser individuality than it already is. But if Fifa was well known to be heavily dependent on stats, then I'm pretty sure adding manual controls wouldn't be a problem.

Hope I make sense.
 
Rob92 said:
I did say "for me", as in my opinion.

Maybe for unranked matches and offline play, the fully manual setup could be retained, but constant manual control does not contribute to a better tactical simulation of football and therefore has no place in a game that attempts to be such in my opinion.
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It's interesting that you and Romagnoli have both phrased it as being better/worse for realism, which is not the angle I'm looking from.

To me, control scheme is purely about accessibility and allowing different types of gamers to get the most out of their game. Whether that's some of us liking the involvement of Manual, or a non-gamer needing assists because they can barely remember what the buttons do, never mind aim a thumbstick accurately.

If the game is properly stat-based and is about footballing decisions rather than automated cheesing, then there's no reason for differing control setups to be a problem. FIFA isn't yet, but that's the better solution going forwards rather than enforcing a single control system to the detriment of people at each end of the spectrum. Everyone should be able to interface with the game, otherwise it's a badly designed game.
 
Rob92 said:
Most of the time manual control isn't necessary though - why would you want more freedom over a standard pass to feet or into the stride of the recipient? The odd bit of difference compared to an assisted pass is hardly going to alter the flow of an attacking move in your favour.
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But not all passes are that simple, are they?

What about shooting? No footballer ever intentionally aims the ball wide of the goal (obviously), yet this is essentially what your player is doing if you're a few degrees off with your manual aim. In football, players either place the ball in the corners, just try to hit the target, lash the ball powerfully in a general area of the goal, or perform an instinctive reaction finish.
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That's again pretty over simplistic, there is a lot more to shooting - a lot to consider when shooting. How hard, do they try to apply curve, how high? It's quite a lot more complex than just corners or hit it at the target.

All of this can be done with assisted controls, yet full manual, if anything, would detract from the realism of shooting.
If the ball deflects unexpectedly to your striker and you quickly press the shot button, it's unlikely that you're going to be aiming the analog stick towards the goal. On manual this would result in a strange, unrealistic missed shot aimed completely the wrong way, yet on assisted it would result in an instinctive snapshot towards goal, much more realistic.
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I think you mistake 'realistic' with a degradation of interactivity. It would be 'more' realistic if I had no control at all, if we assume that the AI is reasonably intelligent. This is a disagreement merely on the grounds of a difference of opinion about how much control one should have over our players minds.

FIFA will always have full manual control as an option now though anyway, they won't remove it.
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True.
 
Rob92 said:
The problem is the difficulty of getting evenly matched games online if you prefer to use lesser sides.
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Maybe I'm lucky but most people I've been playing lately are all pretty fair with the teams they are picking against me. If I don't like what they pick, I won't play them.
 
winston said:
PES's manual control is an optional modifier? :LMAO:
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why is that a bad idea? I think FIFA should offer the same, at least for semi-assisted users. I don't think PES can offer always-on manual controls though because, as you say, the game uses scripting to simulate some of the passing ability - passes aren't intercepted by great defenders so much as passes are forcibly aimed at them.
 
I don't disagree that having the option to manually intervene whilst playing semi/assisted is probably a better solution than having to play full manual, with the problems it introduces. FIFA already allows this to a reasonable extent, with manual through balls, and playing on manual long passing, with semi/assisted for ground passing. It still needs work.

PES's manual is a bit of a mess. The very thing that Rodelero referred to - manual shouldn't allow you to play perfect passes at 180 degrees - was from my memory (haven't played it for months) pretty close to possible, particularly in difficult defensive situation - facing your own goal, just whack in a lofted powerful manual pass 180 up field and job done.

In PES, the typically Seabass shooting system (I can just imagine him saying "we decided to have more shots going over the bar") got on my (and many other people's) nerves, so I just used manual passing for my shots and the goals were far more forthcoming. My manual pass "shots" could now be full blast pile drivers as opposed to the stupid, fluffy shots sailing over the bar the pressing finesse+shoot delivered. Manual wasn't so much a subtle refinement/override but a completely different control altogether, with far more power and as far as I could see, went pretty much exactly where I aimed.
 
nerf said:
FIFA isn't yet, but that's the better solution going forwards rather than enforcing a single control system to the detriment of people at each end of the spectrum. Everyone should be able to interface with the game, otherwise it's a badly designed game.
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So I guess most sports games are badly designed in that case? One control system is certainly not bad design at all. It's good design if the age-old 'easy to learn, hard to master' principles are adhered to.
 
winston said:
PES's manual is a bit of a mess. The very thing that Rodelero referred to - manual shouldn't allow you to play perfect passes at 180 degrees - was from my memory (haven't played it for months) pretty close to possible, particularly in difficult defensive situation - facing your own goal, just whack in a lofted powerful manual pass 180 up field and job done.
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No, it's not a mess it's just basic really. I agree about turning 180 degrees and doing a superman clearance with manual lob isn't good. But that's not to say the system is broken, it's like i said basic.

You don't play a perfect passes with it from my experience and it does take stats into account. It needs more animations + better physics to irony out the madness and 'snap to grid'. Moments!

In PES, the typically Seabass shooting system (I can just imagine him saying "we decided to have more shots going over the bar") got on my (and many other people's) nerves, so I just used manual passing for my shots and the goals were far more forthcoming. My manual pass "shots" could now be full blast pile drivers as opposed to the stupid, fluffy shots sailing over the bar the pressing finesse+shoot delivered. Manual wasn't so much a subtle refinement/override but a completely different control altogether, with far more power and as far as I could see, went pretty much exactly where I aimed.
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Finesse shot has changed a lot. It's not got the same power as it used to and you don't use it like you do with FIFA, your best off pressing it when the gauge is on, or just tapping it depending on how much curl you want.
 
Rob92 said:
For me, fully manual control, even attribute-based, should just be an optional modifier as it is in PES rather than a control scheme in it's own right.

In real life, aiming any strike of the ball (pass or shot) is an instinctive and natural action - even for me, and I'm by my own admission not a great footballer - imagine what this is like for professional footballers who have been playing competitive football all of their lives and training nearly every day.

Let sports games be (as Jamezinho said) about timing, tactics and reading the play - leave games like COD to test your gamepad precision and dexterity.
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This sums up almost everything that we need, and to be honest, the "reading play" aspect is a big fail in pes 2011 to me, so both games still need a lot improvements in this regard (from what i payed in fifa10).

I've been beaten by my brother with ease because of this (he's a "gamer", not a hardcore footy player). Pes 2011 has good mechanics and it's more a sim game (compared to fifa) in many aspects, but it's awful in some others that make the "reading play" a minor aspect (at least imo), because the game doesn't allow you for anticipations and interceptions to avoid cheap and boring plays. I dont know about fifa 11, but in pes 2011 the reading play is irrevelant (i'm not talking about being a couch and change tactically what needs changing).

For example, all my brother does in the game while attacking is 1-2s. As the cursor is crap and the ai reacts so slowly and badly for anticipations and interceptions (and players will harldy stick their legs to intercept a pass a control the ball), there will always be one of his attacker that will recieve the ball (through ball or lofted pass) in conditions to finnish. The AI does not help, it doesn't read those stupid 1-2sruns, i read easiy, but then, the game itseld doesnt help me as well (no quick reactions time for dangerous attacks, terrible cursor and etc).

I think I expect too much from these games. :II
 
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winston said:
I don't disagree that having the option to manually intervene whilst playing semi/assisted is probably a better solution than having to play full manual, with the problems it introduces. FIFA already allows this to a reasonable extent, with manual through balls, and playing on manual long passing, with semi/assisted for ground passing. It still needs work.

PES's manual is a bit of a mess. The very thing that Rodelero referred to - manual shouldn't allow you to play perfect passes at 180 degrees - was from my memory (haven't played it for months) pretty close to possible, particularly in difficult defensive situation - facing your own goal, just whack in a lofted powerful manual pass 180 up field and job done.

In PES, the typically Seabass shooting system (I can just imagine him saying "we decided to have more shots going over the bar") got on my (and many other people's) nerves, so I just used manual passing for my shots and the goals were far more forthcoming. My manual pass "shots" could now be full blast pile drivers as opposed to the stupid, fluffy shots sailing over the bar the pressing finesse+shoot delivered. Manual wasn't so much a subtle refinement/override but a completely different control altogether, with far more power and as far as I could see, went pretty much exactly where I aimed.
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I haven't really experimented much with PES's manual - but to be honest you can do far too much 180 degree spin passing for my liking without it. The Vision AI feature for FIFA 12 is something which is sorely needed by both games, though it wouldn't surprise me if they don't make it substantial enough.
 
Rodelero said:
I haven't really experimented much with PES's manual - but to be honest you can do far too much 180 degree spin passing for my liking without it. The Vision AI feature for FIFA 12 is something which is sorely needed by both games, though it wouldn't surprise me if they don't make it substantial enough.
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Very true. But as long as it doesn't get overcooked to the extent where everything turns out as it used to be before.
http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/fifa-12-pro-player-intelligence/
Vision Mapping – is an under the hood technology which calculates a players field of vision. Cesc Fabregas for example has a an almost complete 360 degree field of vision with only directly behind him the unknown.
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Well, kudos to Cesc, but still ... 'almost complete 360 degree vision' sounds like overcooking. Balance, please.
 
No I don't think he had but it was also about seeing things at range as well as close in, this was important for seeing that third or fourth option and through balls other players don't when on the ball, rather than focusing on the action close in or more obvious passes...
 
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It wasn't 320 vision that spread into infinity either - it was about 50, 60 yards or so IIRC. Still a bit long for me, but the idea was that when he took a touch and turned, he spotted the opportunity for a pass very quickly and the ball was released. For Park Ji Sung the angle was kind of the same but the distance that the wedges behind him would extend were a lot shorter - 30 yards or so. As he turned, the wedges forwards would take a while to extend forwards as he tried to process what was going on around him. By the time he spotted the same pass that Fabregas made, the moment had gone.
 
Wow, so it's that time of the year already? The manual-assisted epic debate is back in full-swing?

Just give me more options for control settings - in both games - and I'm content. I couldn't care less which control scheme is preferred by whom, or which scheme supposedly results in the more realistic brand of football to one person or another. Just give me a control scheme with the freedom to let me play the type of football I want to play, especially in regards to passing, combined with a solid influence of player attributes.

Call it manual, semi-assisted, semi-manual,whatever... it's all along a spectrum anyways - there is no full manual or full assisted settings in either game. PES is too far along the spectrum toward assisted for my tastes, while FIFA's control scheme has numerous little issues that annoy and I'd like to still see more influence of player attributes. I'm also with Rom in that I'd like to see a manual pass modifier button like PES has introduced in FIFA. That said, I felt that PES 2011's assisted passing system contributed to too much ping-pong-like football and was too easy.

In the end I think nerf has it exactly right - it's not about which control scheme leads to greater realism or not, but rather which enables players to best interact with game (after all, realistic football should be a goal of all control schemes rather than a byproduct of one.). We will never all agree on which control settings is preferred or best, so for me, just give me as many options as possible and hopefully I'll be able to find a combination of settings that works for me.
 
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