bobbybox said:
So i understand about deals, football negotiations etc and i understand that Arsenal have done equally as bad or even worse things. But we can still moan about things happening to us That is all I am saying.
yeah and i perfectly understand that. you know what? although i tend to agree more with jumbo's point of view, i actually don't think our point of views are that distant. in the end it's just about semantics.
u think barca has been arrogant in some "exterior aspects" of this negotiation, and that, even though arsenal has showed some arrogance too towards smaller teams in the past, that doesn't mean u shouldn't be mad at barcelona now (wich actually makes perfect sense
).
while i prefere not to define arrogant either arsenal and barca. arsenal (aswell as many other EPL clubs) just takes advantage of (unfair) opportunities. but imo FIFA should be blamed for not addressing this issue, not the british clubs. sure EPL clubs showed some serious desprespect and i'm not justifying them, but i can understand them, as that's business, and u don't give up on a good opportunity just because it wouldn't be fair (i mean, when u can get something for free, why paying for it?).
likewise, i can't blame barca for trying to force arsenal's hands by putting some extra pressure on the club and the player (btw bebo, yeah cesc probably isn't the smartest or nicest guy, but this summer he found himself in quite a tricky situation and i think he handled it with some real class).
we might say u have (like Gerd said) a romantic approach to this situation, while i have a more cynical approach. but in the end, it's just about semantics.
there's just one thing on which we disagree.
u say forcing a barca shirt on fabregas has nothing to do with negotiations.... the thing is... that actually has to do with negotiations.... it might be not nice, but that's it.
it's pretty much like when u negotiate with a used cars dealer. u try to "play dirty", by remarking all the car's flaws and act like u weren't really interested in byuing it. that's an arrogant attitude too, but it's something so common, so natural, no one even considers it as arrogant today. it's just about showing you're willing to walk away.
and trying to remark fabregas' bond with barca and to highlight his desire to play with barca (even in a very unclassy way, like forcing a shirt on him), falls in the same category. it's not nice, sure... but it actually
is part of the negotiation.
there's just one possible scenario for a "fair negotiation". and that's
when the club wants (or needs) to sell the player. other than this specific case, negotiations are never something "smooth" or "fair". and fabregas' case is even more complicated than that. because in this case there are also other factors which made this deal very tricky.
-
fabregas one of the best players in the world in his role
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he's the captain of the team and, despite his young age, one of the charismatic leaders of the team
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on the pitch, he's arguably the most important asset of his team, and off the pitch he represents the image of arsenal.
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he really cares about arsenal and probably wouldn't wanna leave the gunners for any other club than barca (and funnily that gives leverage to both clubs)
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Rosell had to try to get him coz that was his "electoral promise".
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fabregas still has 3 years left on his contract
theese 2 last factors (rosell's needs and those 3 years on the contract) give huge leverage to arsenal.... and combined with the other factors, they make fabregas an almost unreachable player. it's just too complicated to get him, no one would even bother starting a negotiation, coz arsenal would clearely step in the negotiation as the "strongest player".
in every negotiation the parties aren't exactly on the same position. it's like poker, someone always has a better hand. and u always know who has the better hand: the one who has no real urge or need to close the deal. that party is always gonna get the better terms in the deal.
so when u're supposed to face a negotiation, knowing from the very beginning that u're gonna be the "weak player" (and barca clearely was the weak player this time) and that your counterpart is gonna have so much more leverage than u, u just don't even bother and give up.
that's a loosing negotiation and it's something u wanna avoid, unless u have to face it (and, like i said, this summer rosell was forced to face this challenge for electoral reasons).
for any other counterpart it would be impossible to overcome such a gap in bargaining power..... arsenal would get the better terms and so there's no point in even trying to start the negotiation unless u're confortable with the idea of putting a ridiculous offer on the table (say, a real madrid kinda offer or a man city kinda offer)
........
or unless u have some leverage of your own. and that's barca's case. but in order to take advantage of that leverage, barca has to "play smart". try to act like they got the upper hand (even if they don't). and when u come to think of it, they actually achieved this goal. this "display of arrogance" (although, like i said, i don't think arrogance is the appropriate word) gave arsenal fans the feeling they were the smaller player in this negotiation. now barca is probably a more powerful team than arsenal........ but in this specific negotiation, arsenal was the strong player, not barca.
yet barca's strategy achieved its goal: to have people perceiving arsenal as "the weak player" in the negotiation.
lucky you, arsenal board didn't fall for it. all barca's theatrics weren't enough to overcome the gap between arsenal's position and barca's position in the negotiation and that's why barca had to walk away (at least for this round).
but those theatrics, weren't just a display of arrogance.... it was a strategy aimed to reduce "the bargaining power gap" between arsenal and barca in this deal and actually get a chance to sign fabregas for a reasonable price (by "reasonable" i mean not making a real madrid kinda offer or a man city kinda offer).
it was actually part of the negotiation.
the best thing for barca would have been to have fabregas complaining with wenger and his agent fighting with arsenal's board.... but that was impossible as fabregas didn't wanna turn his back on his team and play "the bastard card" just to make things easier for barca.
so what's the next best thing? trying to take advantage of a national team celebration situation to force a barca shirt on fabregas' shoulders.
again, it's not a nice thing to do, but negotiating is never about "playing nice", especially in such a tricky negotiation.
the bad news for arsenal though (and the good news for barca) is that, from now on, things will only get easier for barca. it doesn't matter if fabregas will have a stunning season this year... next summer he'll have only 2 years left on his contract, and that's obviously gonna effect his pricetag (and arsenal's leverage).
and if u don't sell him next summer, then in 2 years, fabregas will only have one season left on his contract. and, at that point, the situation will turn upside down and arsenal will become the "weak player" in the negotiation.
so long story short, i don't know what kinda offer barca made this summer, but, from next season on, u'll never gonna get more than what barca already offered this season, as fabregas' pricetag will get cheaper and cheaper, regardless his performances.
anyhow bobby that was a really interesting conversation. u actually opened my mind on "the arsenal fan perspective". afterall, i got to admit, it's pretty easy to have a neutral prespective when u're not personally involved.... and probably, if i were an arsenal fan, i wouldn't be so comprehensive towards barcelona.
and after reading your posts, even though i can't really sympathize with arsenal's position, i can certainly understand and sympathize with arsenal's fans position
oh and btw, jumbo, bebo, thanks for the infos and links
sorry for the long post guys.... and sorry for dragging u back on this topic again
) 
Yee Haa!
This will be very odd.
..Barca doesn`t want anyone coming to their training grounds and picking their players no club even though they comes to us and take our players. How many players left Arsenal to join Barca ? How many players Arsenal take from Barca? It`s Business maybe not the nicest way...How was fergie when Ronaldo wanted to leave " I wouldn`t want to sell them a virus" Wenger doesn`t talk out of anger it`s business not personal . I get angry for selfish reason trust me I was more angry when Henry left miles more ...Henry went for 16 mil Bent went to Spurs for 16mil. So you saying we shouldn`t me angry because we took him from them 1st is laughable .Barca could of come earlier but choose to come in the last few season
