FC Barcelona Thread

ZeroTheHero said:
I could go on forever, really, but at last I'd mention consistency. Maradona was consistently the best player in the world from 1983 to 1992, that's almost 10 years, even though he was noticeably reduced from 1990.
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Sorry but at least this part is very very wrong. I watched Maradona play live for 2 seasons and though he was a genius, he wasn't consistent at all and is considered a flop in his 2 seasons at Barcelona, specially regarding his mentality and his total lack of discipline. Even if his stats were ok, they were nothing extraordinary and he had clashes and problems with evryone at the club.

His 2 first seasons at Napoli were good, but not absolutely amazing. His explosion comes from 1985 to 1989, and that's it. Because what happened after that was the chronicle of a fall and unfortunately a terrible way of ending a career.

I would say that at best, Maradona performed at the highest level for 3-4 seasons, and never in the European Cup. I know they were other times and playing at Napoli has a lot of merit (but the same could be said about hundreds of great players) but in terms of club career, he hardly had the impact of Pelé, Messi or even Di Stefano.

So let's compare him to Messi (imagine Messi's career ended yesterday). Messi has already delivered more consistent performances than Maradona in his whole career. He has been influential in more trophies and broke more records, solo and team records. The only difference is the World Cup '86, which really turned him into a legend. But we're talking about 4-5 matches. I think the whole career speaks a lot more about a player than a select group of matches. World cup matches in my oppinion are overrated.

Important: I've watched both play live. Messi has been and is as influential (or more) than Maradona and for a longer time. You will agree that Messi most of the time plays as an offensive midfielder and the fact that he ends up finishing the play is just a testament for his amazing skills and influence on the pitch, where he can roam and fall back or go up at will. If you don't think Messi takes the same role as Maradona many times then you should watch more Barça matches.

And finally, in each of the last 5 seasons Messi has scored (a lot) more goals and delivered (a lot) more assists than Maradona in his best one.

Messi to me is way better. And I repeat, I watched them live and when Maradona went to Napoli I watched a lot of his matches as well.
 
In my opinion Messi and Maradona are not comparable since they play in different times. Since Maradona times, football changed a lot, so we can't say one is better than the other with two totally different styles of football, i think. You can compare Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo or Neymar and Bale but you can compare players of 21th century to players like Maradona, Pelé or di Stefano...

And about world cup discussion i think that a team isn't only Messi like a team wasn't only Maradona (in this case Argentina NT). A team isn't a single player and Sweden NT proves that: Ibra is an amazing player and he has no chance to win a single world cup!
Maybe Maradona's Argentina was better than Messi's one comparing to the other teams.

It's my opinion, I think its a valid one :)
 
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agree with miguell. comparisons over national team achievements are quite unfair. unless if the player won 3 world cups as his team's main man as pele did, every player is open to be questioned imo. then the european cup/champions league is the platform the players considered to be greats could be compared with each other. except if it's a brilliant footballer who's also extremely loyal such as totti. because it's almost impossible to win CL with roma. I never expected him to win the CL or never would say "Totti is not a legend because he never won CL", it's just unfair. the same goes with maradona's napoli as well. they won serie a titles too, they won the cup 2 which was much competitive than today's EL (due to the cup 1 being a tournament for only the league champions until 1997/98) but they failed in the cup 1 both times they qualified as league champions. maybe this shows that as a team they weren't strong enough.

so if you want conclusion, I've none. I think football comparisons are just too difficult to be based on objective aspects which is why I hate them. in nba it's a lot easier. just look at the players who won multiple titles as the leader of his team and you have the "greatest" class (since 80's there are only 9 players with this achievement: magic, jordan, bird, duncan, hakeem, isiah, kobe, lebron, shaq).
 
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don't get drekkard started on the NBA :LOL: Btw drekkard makes a critical point about Maradona's lifestyle choices. He acted like a rock star!
 
This is not science, this is pub talk.
If you talk about football like scientists would do, then you can't compare players from diferent ages.

What we do is banter. Most people tend to forget that.

drekkard points are valid imo.
That is what i'm saying too.
I've watched Pele, Maradona and Messi.
There is no doubt that Maradona is one of the best ever players, but people only remember his peaks. I'm even tempted to say that some people only remember the 1986 World Cup while some others rmember him from Napoli.

To me what Maradona did with Napoli has much more merit than the 1986 WC. I agree that World Cups are overrated. Some of the all-time greats like Best and Giggs never played in a WC. A world cup is of course also about ability, but imo it's more about form.

The main reason why i hesitate to put Maradona beside Pele and Messi (and even Zidane) is the same that drekkard mentioned: consistency. Yes Maradona was highly skilled, but so was George Best...and Gunther Netzer.

He played a fabulous WC (perhaps the best individual performance ever in a WC), he had some great seasonswith Napoli (at a time when Seria A was by far the strongest league in the world, Milan, Inter and Sampdoria had fabulous teams when he played for Napoli), but he never showed the consistency both Pele and Messi had. And like i said i doubt if he's better than Zidane.

But it's notthat important and in the end it doesn't make sense to compare players of different periods.
 
bebo said:
don't get drekkard started on the NBA :LOL: Btw drekkard makes a critical point about Maradona's lifestyle choices. He acted like a rock star!
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I guess we saw (kind of) a similar story in ronaldinho too in recent years. imo, maradona and ronaldinho are the two most gifted players ever but unfortunately, both did their best to waste that. sometimes I say I wish one never got that world cup trophy and the other one never won that CL. I appreciate hard work and discipline much more than talent. talent is overrated.
 
Not having Giggs being mentioned among all these names. As Roy Keane said in 'best of enemies', great career not a great player

Maradona probably/certainly played in the toughest league for an attacking player out of all the other players mentioned alongside him.

In fact, if you could send Messi and CRonaldo back in time we'd probably now be talking more about the latter than the former. Maradona had personal issues that hampered his career but I'm certain he would destroy the modern game with how privileged attackers are these days - if he didn't kill himself with all the money he'd earn
 
I don't give a hoot what anybody says. The two best players I have ever seen or will probably ever see are ronaldo and messi. The best in the world since 2006/2007 and still going strong. Record breakers. Like it or lump it!
 
bebo said:
don't get drekkard started on the NBA :LOL:
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Lebron will never be as good as Jordan, no matter the number of titles or stats. It's just about being a genius or being a genial athlete.

And that's the difference between Ronaldo and Messi. Take out power from Ronaldo and he's nothing. Messi can amaze without even moving. I know it's an exageration guys, just to illustrate what makes the top legends so special.

Ronaldo scores a lot and is one of the best players I've seen, but I hardly have the feeling of stand up, put my hands in my head and shout "how the hell he did that?".

Players like Maradona, Pele, Messi, Ronaldinho had that special something that Jordan had and I don't feel in Lebron/Ronaldo. But that's because I always rated skill and intelligence over raw power.

bebo said:
drekkard makes a critical point about Maradona's lifestyle choices. He acted like a rock star!
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ZeroTheHero said:
Gazza in form was something special as well. He did some pretty amazing stuff on occasion.
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gerd said:
Roy Keane: great carreer, not a great player and an even les great human being...
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And this is very important to me. It's not only about playing, but also being a good guy and having discipline and being professional.

Maradona did so many things wrong outside of the pitch that probably prevented him from being even better. He threw away too many chances, the same way Ronaldinho decided to stop all efforts after only 2 seasons of greatness.

Gascoine, like Best, are players that were their own enemies.

The good thing for Messi and Ronaldo is that the competition between them has spurred them to be better than they probably thought they were.
 
I'm curious what you think of players like Stoichkov, Romario, Boban, Baggio then drekkard. I also prefer intelligence over power. But i certainly wouldn't mind to see them both combined to have that ultimate athlete/footballer.

There are more players who I like but I'll just stick to those for now.
 
Stoichkov and Romario were/are geniuses, not only as football players, but also as human beings. Cruijff had that too.
That doesn't make them easy people or even succesfull people (those 3 are of course), but they have something unique and special. And sometimes and for some people that aspect is a sort of handicap.
 
I tend to agree with drekkard, intelligence wows me even more than athleticism.

I think in the 90s you could maybe divide the decade in two. In the first half I think Baggio, Romario and Matthaus were the highlights. And in the second half I'd say it was Bergkamp, Ronaldo (the first) and Zidane.

All of those players were formidable athletes at their peak and highly intelligent on the pitch (especially Bergkamp and Zidane IMO, and as proof of that they both played until they were 36 still doing things that amaze you).

But when a player excels in both areas, you get a guy like the fat Ronaldo, when he wasn't fat he was nearly unstoppable, around his Barcelona years. He was quite intelligent on the pitch too, with a great sense for space and movement, so even after 3 ACL injuries and many pounds added to his body, he had to change his playing style (in the Real Madrid years) and still did great things.

When you put athleticism and intelligence together like that, I think only Pelé would be a better example. That was what made Pelé a beast really, the fact that he could do everything, from beating defenders on runs and scoring lots of headers at just 1m72 tall to dismantling defenses through playmaking.

When it comes to comparing Maradona to Messi, people often use the 1986 WC to settle the score in favour of Maradona, but I'm on the Messi camp. Although I do think Messi's Argentina is stronger than that one in 1986 - correct me if I'm wrong cause I was too young to remember '86 but today's Argentina has maybe the best attack in the world with Messi, Aguero, Tevez and Di Maria.

Still, even if Messi doesn't win a world cup with Argentina, I'd still think he's best than Maradona, mostly due to his sheer consistency and freightening stats.
Nowadays nobody comes closer to Messi and C. Ronaldo (and it's a joke that UEFA apparently considers Ribery as in the same level as those guys).
Finally, I do think C. Ronaldo isn't only about power but we will see if I'm wrong when he starts ageing and losing his pace.
 
I can't talk about players like Maradona and Pele coz I haven't seen them playing and you can't tell by just looking some videos coz even Assaidi can look best ever if you see some YouTube videos ;)

But for what I have seen (mostly from 2000) until now for me best ever it's Ronaldinho , yes his stats maybe weren't as good as Ronaldo and Messi but what he did with ball was incredible , for me he has bring football to whole new level , he was a genius and for those years in barca he was simply the best
 
Brazil 1970 had at least 6 players that were better than Ronaldinho: Gerson, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Tostao, Carlos Alberto and Pele himself.
Those guys never played in Europe, that is the reason why they are less known than Ronaldinho. Brazil 1982 had also several players better than Ronaldinho: Zico, Socrates and Eder. Toninho Cerezo and Falcao were also great players.
 
gerd said:
Brazil 1970 had at least 6 players that were better than Ronaldinho: Gerson, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Tostao, Carlos Alberto and Pele himself.
Those guys never played in Europe, that is the reason why they are less known than Ronaldinho. Brazil 1982 had also several players better than Ronaldinho: Zico, Socrates and Eder. Toninho Cerezo and Falcao were also great players.
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You cant compare 1970 and 1982 players with a 21th century player like Ronaldinho. In that time, football was very different. Look, i just know that he is the best Brazilian player of his generation, maybe the best of the world! I only know that he is a legend and one of the greatest names in brazil history!!
 
I have the impression ppl think Messi is weak, I beg ya differ he has legs like a stallion and is strong like an Ox. He is usually surrounded by large n slow defenders. He is fearless coming thru the middle. He gets challenge more for breaking thrus the middle. While CR comes from open traffic on the wings. Both are great players on their own merit. Let's not get out of touch about Bergkamp a living breathing legend where statues are made for him :P.
 
In terms of spectacle and flair, Ronaldinho was the most impressive player in the world indeed. That he threw away his career in the bin by the late night partying and missing training sessions doesn't come into this equation. He showed the world what he could do.

But to say he was the best of all time for Brazil... sorry, but not even close. Ronaldo, Romario, Pele and a few names mentioned by Gerd are ahead of him IMO.

What Ronaldinho did on the pitch was pure bliss but not always effective, one must observe.

I remember the 2006 Champions League final, Barcelona vs Arsenal, when Arsenal were down to 10 men for most of the match and Ronaldinho was a ghost that day.
He was lauded for winning the CL at the peak of his career, but the truth is that he made little difference in the final (if not in other crucial games which I cannot remember).
Furthermore, the way he behaved in the WC 2006 in Germany made me lose a lot of respect for him, especially because he was the best player in the world back then. Massive disappointment and from there on his career went downhill.
 
Lami said:
I'm curious what you think of players like Stoichkov, Romario, Boban, Baggio then drekkard. I also prefer intelligence over power. But i certainly wouldn't mind to see them both combined to have that ultimate athlete/footballer.

There are more players who I like but I'll just stick to those for now.
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Good points by you all guys!

Romario was a genius and the best finisher ever. I think in 3 years I never saw him miss a single good goal chance and never ceased to create on the fly. He was probably the player who did the most without even attempting to run at all.

And you can take what I wrote about Romario and apply it to Baggio in the midfield. Absolutely loved him.

Stoichkov wasn't the most skilled guy, nor the best athlete, but he was a complete genius in the mental aspects of the game. I think Cristiano Ronaldo is very very similar to him, only he scores a lot more and moans to referees instead of punching or stepping on them. :P

Guys, I miss players like Romario and Baggio in current football. Too much athleticism and tactics have killed the romantic idea behind those genius players.

I didn't watch too much of Boban, so I prefer others who know better than me to speak about him. The few flashes I remember suggest he was quality, for sure.

As Bebo says Messi is a real powerhouse. The only way to stop him is fouling him and many times thanks to his low center of mass he can't push much bigger defenders aside.

I agree with rentboy and gerd on the points they raise, except that I think the current Argentina has the best attacking men, but a terrible team, specially in the midfield. Maradona had no other geniuses around, but that was good for him, he had great teamworking mates and an incredibly good deffense.

Finally, I must say I feel totally blessed by football, and probably I will never be able to give back to football what it has given to me. I have watched Maradona, Romario, Stoichkov, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Messi... all play live at the Nou Camp stadium. Maybe to balance karma I broke my ACL again.
 
Garrincha was before my time, but my father and uncle would always go on about Garrincha when Maradona was all over the place in '86. He was, according to them, better than Pele as well.

Anyway, since we all seem to have to agree to disagree I'll admit that even though I was a huge England fan in the 80's, watching Maradona play football gave me a feeling of watching something very special and no player ever since has even come close to that same awe inspired greatness on the pitch. I'm not talking about stats here, I'm talking about the Maradona presence that made him the huge idol that he was. If anyone has earned the name "The Special One" it should be Maradona and not that piglet of a man that claims it now.

@Drekkard Argentina had a good defense because they played catenaccio. It says 3-5-2 on the lineup sheet but it was in fact 5-3-Maradona-1. Without Maradona in 1986, Argentina would've probably struggled to get past the group stage.

PS. Since we're good and gritty about mentioning all the bad sides to some players mentioned, nobody seem to mind that Pele counts around 400 friendly goals against more or less pathetic opponents among his amazing 1000 goal tally. If that's not smallminded then I don't know what is.
 
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I think you downplay Cristiano Ronaldo's 'magic' or 'X-factor' Drekkard, sure he's not Messi in that department but if ever there was a player to get you on the edge whilst watching Ronaldo did that everytime I saw him at United and continuous to at Real.

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Magic.
 
Thanks for these responses guys :)

I have to be honest, I still prefer watching older games from the 80's, 90's and even early 00's over games now. Wife keeps telling me I watch too many 'old fart' games. I just tell her I can't shake off the feeling there was more quality back then. There was more thinking and intelligence then. Just too much athleticism now. I know it's good and all but I guess it takes more energy away from the brain to create brilliance.

Ronaldo (The one and only) is the one man whom I thought combined both intelligence and athleticism at his peak. Thought he was out of this world and simply unstoppable, but his injuries got the best of him. C Ronaldo is a goal scoring machine yes, but I don't feel excited watching him play nowadays as opposed to when he was at United. He is a brilliant player, but I guess he's probably learnt better ways to get to the goal than he used to. I kind of feel the same regarding Messi too.

I might be talking rubbish here but it's just my humble opinion :)
 
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Pelé may be the greatest ever perhaps, but his goal tally is a hoax. Some detractors in Brazil say he counted goals in the army teams when he was serving :LOL:
It is practically superhuman to score more than 1,000 goals.
In Brazil some strikers claim to have scored around 1,000 goals, which is absolutely rubbish IMO. Even with the state championships with low-level opposition and long pre-season in Brazilian football, plus friendlies, it must be impossible to reach that mark. Even Romario, who's probably the most prolific Brazilian striker of all time, claims to have scored his 1,000th goal when he was 40 nearing the end of his career. But even so, I bet he included many non-official matches and charity matches.
Dadá Maravilha also claims he scored around 1,000. Also rubbish IMO. There is/was also a striker in Brazil called Tulio, who was in his personal journey to score his 1,000th goal, last time I checked he was 44 years old and still a dozen goals shy off the mark (according to his count, of course) :LOL:

If even non-official games count, I must have scored around 200 when I played for the school team and was any good at football, so you get the idea :P

You take a guy like Messi, he scores almost every match he plays, and many times scores twice or hat tricks. Counting all competitions, he must have almost 400 by now?
If there's a guy with a genuine chance of scoring 1,000 'legit' goals in his professional career, I think it's Messi.

Still regarding legends from the past, if you had to compare Brazilian players of all times to Ronaldinho, there's no doubt Garrincha goes way ahead, as Zero mentioned. In Brazil it 's debatable if he was better than even Pelé.

Barcelona has had some sort of special connection with Brazilian players in the last 20-25 years. Rivaldo must be one of the top players from the 90s, and I followed Barcelona closely when he was there, circa 99-2000. His golden era didn't last too long but he did truly jaw dropping things there, one of the most spectacular players at his peak.
 
I'm fond of some cult players, who never could make a claim to be among the likes of Pele, Messi, Maradona, Zidane and Cruijff...but i really liked them for their intelligence and their elegance: some examples Fernando Redondo, Giuseppe Giannini (whol ost his place in the national team to the divine ponytail Baggio, and yes Baggio was the better player, but i preferred Giannini) David Ginola, Lee Sharpe (a player who in the failed, but when he was good, he was fantastic, he had the ability of Giggs), Asgeir Sigurvinsson (this is a player of the '70's who played in Belgium and then went to Bayern Munchen but never really succeded there) and the whole Red Star Beograd team that won the CL...
 
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