eFootball PES 2020 Demo Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox)

[gabe.paul.logan]

Are you serious Gabe Paul Logan?



Play a game in the easiest difficulty, then get near the box and start firing shots away.
Hold the left stick back in the opposite direction to which you're going to shoot to hit low balls, of course body positioning will also affect how low, how curled, how much spin the shot is going to have.
Then do the same, but while holding the left stick forward in the same direction to which you're going to shoot and notice the difference.

DO that through out the entire match, even if it seems silly or boring. After that go play a real game and you'll feel much comfortable although it takes months to do it subconsciously or without being too self-aware or second guessing yourself when push comes to shove.

Oh yes. The ball is faster than last year and fast players are much faster. Thankfuly slow ones are slow and player reaction is "slow" based on skill so its kinda balanced. But to me it feels fast on 0 speed.

 

[majuh]

Sometimes i read on reddit wepes section what people think and there are more and more ex Fifa fans coming to Pes or wanting to come to Pes complaining about responsiveness. I am terrified by their feedback.

Just one example



They want lightning quick gameplay, but they don't understand that players take their decisions on the fly but to put that in practice takes time, that's the time the body needs to react to the brain stimulus. That's exactly what Pes does. You can decide to pass the moment you give the players input but sometimes they will react half second later because they need to physically adapt to the input you gave them.

Obviously there is the usual exaggeration (several seconds for players to react? What?) to try and make their own point.

Unfortunately i already know where this is going and how this will affect the final code.

I would like to show people complaining about players "taking ages" to control the ball thiis match between two of of the most skilled teams filled with top players



People should just look (even by watching the very first minutes) at how many times even the most technical player in this match takes seconds to control the ball. Pes is realistic, don't like that? Go play Fifa. Not meant to feel as an offense or fanboy intent, it's just the truth. If you like your game to be more arcade football and less realistic, you can play with that, arcade is fun. There is no shame into admitting you want to play an arcade game, just don't try to find issues where there aren't.

Football is getting faster. Mayer tells me that in 2006, when Germany finished third in the World Cup, their players spent an average of 2.9 seconds on the ball each time they had it. By 2014, when they won, that had fallen to just 0.9 seconds.

https://thesetpieces.com/features/athletic-brain-neuroscience-revolutionising-sport/

We're at a point where PES is literally slower than real football, although it needs to simulate matches in 10 minutes instead of ~60 minutes.

 

[Chuny]

Oh yes. The ball is faster than last year and fast players are much faster. Thankfuly slow ones are slow and player reaction is "slow" based on skill so its kinda balanced. But to me it feels fast on 0 speed.

Oh I see what you mean now.
Yeah, definitely.
I think the overall speed is lower though. Fast players feel fast and slow players feel slow (something I've been craving for. One of the best things about 2020 for me), but all players have that feeling of weight to them.
I would really love it pass speed could be lowered. Like 30% slower.

 

[Chuny]

Football is getting faster. Mayer tells me that in 2006, when Germany finished third in the World Cup, their players spent an average of 2.9 seconds on the ball each time they had it. By 2014, when they won, that had fallen to just 0.9 seconds.

https://thesetpieces.com/features/athletic-brain-neuroscience-revolutionising-sport/

We're at a point where PES is literally slower than real football, although it needs to simulate matches in 10 minutes instead of ~60 minutes.

Yeah! Agree.
Well, most players (specially the top top ones) are real athletes now.
It's not enough to have an exquisite technique, or amazing skills or about being strong. Now you also have to be an athlete or you're going to struggle.

Clubs really focus a lot on players bodies nowadays, even at the expense of player's own strengths and abilities, maybe a little too much for my taste.

That's why I'll probably never get to see another Riquelme or Xavi or Iniesta or Zidane for as long as I live, unfortunately. Slow players, but with the brain and the technique of a God.

 

[Goldstone]

Football is getting faster. Mayer tells me that in 2006, when Germany finished third in the World Cup, their players spent an average of 2.9 seconds on the ball each time they had it. By 2014, when they won, that had fallen to just 0.9 seconds.

https://thesetpieces.com/features/athletic-brain-neuroscience-revolutionising-sport/

We're at a point where PES is literally slower than real football, although it needs to simulate matches in 10 minutes instead of ~60 minutes.

You make a very good point here but it doesn't always mean football games should follow suit. Sometimes it doesn't work in a videogame (including non football ones) or is a good idea to completely replicate something like for like. Football may be faster but that doesn't mean it makes for a better football game. Certain things have to be different to achieve level of realism which translates through a controller & on screen.
You can pull off quick football in PES 2020 & players are perfectly agile and fast enough but there's a momentum & weight in place that makes it feel grounded ,immersive & deliberate.
It needs to be like this IMO or we'd end up with something like E.A's offering that replicates the look & feel of 'watching football' quite brilliantly but not actually playing it with a controller in hand, which is of course only my opinion though.

 

[Chuny]

Off-topic: I might be buying this player for ML....... haha

 

[Nacho10]

Honestly I'm living in fear of the state PES will release in with some of this feedback.

"why can't my player receive a ball hammered at him, insta control it, spin fire another 1000mph 100% accurate pass off all in one millisecond long movement"

Well at least we'll always have the demo!

That's not real feedback btw... hopefully

 

[Alx1234]

Sometimes i read on reddit wepes section what people think and there are more and more ex Fifa fans coming to Pes or wanting to come to Pes complaining about responsiveness. I am terrified by their feedback.

Just one example



They want lightning quick gameplay, but they don't understand that players take their decisions on the fly but to put that in practice takes time, that's the time the body needs to react to the brain stimulus. That's exactly what Pes does. You can decide to pass the moment you give the players input but sometimes they will react half second later because they need to physically adapt to the input you gave them.
............

Unfortunately, you're going to have FIFA fans complaining about PES because they don't understand that PES takes time to learn.

Its up to konami to listen to what's being said but also be in tune with who is saying what.

Problems arise if konami has no certainty of which group is "correct". Easiest solution IMO would be a couple of ediion of PES - one PRO edition (FUMA only offline and online capabilities; only aesthetic game patches) and one STANDARD (all control levels; gameplay and aesthetic patches). That way you potentially satisfy existing PES and FIFA players and you rake it in.

Said about a PRO edition a few times back on pesfan but if no-one's bothered, then me neither.

 

[Chuny]

Unfortunately, you're going to have FIFA fans complaining about PES because they don't understand that THIS PES takes time to learn.

I fixed it for ya haha

 

[Ameppe]

That article talks about decision making being faster but it doesn't really talk about the time a player need to control the ball or putting in practice what your brain has already decided.

You can be extremely quick to react when you already know what to do with the ball even before receiving it especially when player positions are so good that you can just make first touch short passes to teammates without even controlling the ball, but in general it's not true that 1 sec is the average time a football player takes to control the ball and pass. Just watch that Barca-Real match.

Actually you already can play with players having much lower time on the ball. Just use first touch passes, pressing the pass button even before your player receives the ball and you will see how players don't even need to control it. Once again, a realistic approach you can replicate on Pes if you use the right tactics to have teammates always near you.

 

[Marlon Anthony]

Yeah! Agree.
Well, most players (specially the top top ones) are real athletes now.
It's not enough to have an exquisite technique, or amazing skills or about being strong. Now you also have to be an athlete or you're going to struggle.

Clubs really focus a lot on players bodies nowadays, even at the expense of player's own strengths and abilities, maybe a little too much for my taste.

That's why I'll probably never get to see another Riquelme or Xavi or Iniesta or Zidane for as long as I live, unfortunately. Slow players, but with the brain and the technique of a God.

True. At top flight level, It's practically pharmaceutical. It's always why players are slimmer and leaner but also fitter then ever. You won't see many big built players or body builders as it's not very functional to carry that kind of weight around. Even CB's & GK's aren't exactly brick shithouses anymore, They've got to be agile due to the demands and pace of the game & most CB's have adapted to become better ball carries and even dribblers now to assist with the rest of the play.

The game has in fact evolved but i remember even back in 2006, Gabriel Agbonlahor, A very pacey striker who also loved bodybuilding was being urged by his manager to stop pumping iron as it was affecting his speed.

 

[Ameppe]

The only responsiveness issue i see in this demo comes from AI awareness of the ball. Sometimes it seems like AI doesn't react quickly enough to activate the cursor switch and let us control the player that is nearest to the ball. This is a longstanding issue, that still brings frustration when playing. This happens a lot more when you play on manual passing because it seems the AI awareness and cursor switch algorithm are not developed enough to understand which player needs to be "activated" when the ball travels near them with much more available trajectories of the ball. Sometimes you even see the name plate in the lower corner switching between several names in a fraction of second because the AI is going crazy trying to understand which player it needs to select.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Just because these guys are FIFA fans (um, like myself) doesn't mean they don't have a point. Coming from FIFA - or really, most AAA action based games these days - PES feels sluggish and unresponsive, made worse by its odd control scheme choices.

Yes, some of that slowness and heaviness is intentional and needed, but that doesn't mean there aren't issues. There simply is no footballing reason for why sometimes it takes so long for controller inputs to be executed in the game. For example, it drives me nuts how often I press shoot or pass and my player will take another touch before executing my command. Coming from FIFA this just feels like poor game design, because it is.

Then there's issues where you get locked into actions and cannot control your players. @Chris Davies posted video showing how you're locked out of controlling your players in certain situations, clearly because the game wants something to play out in a certain predetermined way, your actions be damned. Coming from FIFA, and again most modern action games, this feels antiquated and it's why the game still gets criticized for being so assisted and "on-the-rails."

PES's gameplay is really good, but it's almost like another Red Dead Redemption 2 where the game plays out in a superb fashion but the controls and the responsiveness and just the overall feel of interacting with the world - in this case controlling players - isn't really up to par. Hardcore PES fans - pretty much most of you - are used to this and so it's the normal, but coming from FIFA (and others games) it's a tough transition and really detracts from being able to enjoy what is the best looking and most realistic football game right now.

FIFA has borrowed heavily from PES when it makes sense. Responsiveness and freedom/control are areas that PES could learn from FIFA. If PES is going to make any kind of dent into FIFA's dominance, it'll have to, as these are major turnoffs to anyone used to playing more fast-paced, twitch-based gameplay, which is most modern day AAA titles.

 

[Bonano]

Football is getting faster. Mayer tells me that in 2006, when Germany finished third in the World Cup, their players spent an average of 2.9 seconds on the ball each time they had it. By 2014, when they won, that had fallen to just 0.9 seconds.

https://thesetpieces.com/features/athletic-brain-neuroscience-revolutionising-sport/

We're at a point where PES is literally slower than real football, although it needs to simulate matches in 10 minutes instead of ~60 minutes.

Do you have a link or your own calculations of how much time the average player in PES spend on the ball?

Also, the ex-Fifa dude said "They take at least 2 or 3 seconds to comfortably receive the pass and have little to no ability to quickly turn in the opposite direction with the ball to continue the flow of play."

Sounds like he doesn't know how to turn without touching the ball/let it roll through the legs while turning, and even then, some of the game's skilled dribblers have that special animation to turn with the ball with a slight touch when you just press the direction you wanna face.

 

[Gale Kast]

Apologies if this has been mentioned, haven't had a chance to scroll through everything. But the easy way to see what his actual offensive formation is this: choose manual man marking setting, select one of your own, and then you'll see their exact lineup for the offensive phase of play.

So it doesn't just look stupid, it's ineffective as well.

I did not know that so thank you very much!

 

[Madmac79]

"Several seconds for a player to receive the ball and position himself"?

How am I supposed to take seriously a critic like this? It's stupid not because he's "coming from Fifa" but because it's just not true and voluntarily over the top.

By the way, I hope Pes stays his distinct thing from Fifa. I like Fifa (or at least liked it before this two dull, empty editions of 18 and 19) and exactly for that I don't feel the need to play two games wanting both to achieve the same final vibe.

 

[Goldstone]

Just because these guys are FIFA fans (um, like myself) doesn't mean they don't have a point. Coming from FIFA - or really, most AAA action based games these days - PES feels sluggish and unresponsive, made worse by its odd control scheme choices.

Yes, some of that slownes

Just because these guys are FIFA fans (um, like myself) doesn't mean they don't have a point. Coming from FIFA - or really, most AAA action based games these days - PES feels sluggish and unresponsive, made worse by its odd control scheme choices.

Yes, some of that slowness and heaviness is intentional and needed, but that doesn't mean there aren't issues. There simply is no footballing reason for why sometimes it takes so long for controller inputs to be executed in the game. For example, it drives me nuts how often I press shoot or pass and my player will take another touch before executing my command. Coming from FIFA this just feels like poor game design, because it is.

Then there's issues where you get locked into actions and cannot control your players. @Chris Davies posted video showing how you're locked out of controlling your players in certain situations, clearly because the game wants something to play out in a certain predetermined way, your actions be damned. Coming from FIFA, and again most modern action games, this feels antiquated and it's why the game still gets criticized for being so assisted and "on-the-rails."

PES's gameplay is really good, but it's almost like another Red Dead Redemption 2 where the game plays out in a superb fashion but the controls and the responsiveness and just the overall feel of interacting with the world - in this case controlling players - isn't really up to par. Hardcore PES fans - pretty much most of you - are used to this and so it's the normal, but coming from FIFA (and others games) it's a tough transition and really detracts from being able to enjoy what is the best looking and most realistic football game right now.

FIFA has borrowed heavily from PES when it makes sense. Responsiveness and freedom/control are areas that PES could learn from FIFA. If PES is going to make any kind of dent into FIFA's dominance, it'll have to, as these are major turnoffs to anyone used to playing more fast-paced, twitch-based gameplay, which is most modern day AAA titles.

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with hardly any of this. The only thing that would dent FIFA's dominance is licences and better presentation, doesn't matter how good,fast or responsive the gameplay is because licenses are absolute king these days. Even many FIFA players openly admit to only playing it because it has everything whether it's good or bad to play.

PES has been very responsive in the past and twitch based ,This is the first year in long time it's gone down a more simulation route and for some of us it's what we've been waiting for & we don't want it ruined. We know it has issues but the majority are pleased for a change.

I don't buy the idea that Konami should cater to players coming from AAA fast paced twitch games? Why should they? There's already a football game for that & PES has been guilty of being that way in previous iterations, it's nice to have something different for a change.

Again and I stress, there is nothing wrong with the player responsiveness (excluding loose balls which are an issue) in this year's game and it is not sluggish. It's by design and takes time to learn the mechanics. Once you shake off the need to have every input action carried out immediately you'll see how organic it actually is and it starts to flow beautifully. I understand your frustration, I really do because it felt weird to me at first but there's a reason it's like this and we like it.

 

[OBH]

Sometimes i read on reddit wepes section what people think and there are more and more ex Fifa fans coming to Pes or wanting to come to Pes complaining about responsiveness. I am terrified by their feedback.

Just one example



They want lightning quick gameplay, but they don't understand that players take their decisions on the fly but to put that in practice takes time, that's the time the body needs to react to the brain stimulus. That's exactly what Pes does. You can decide to pass the moment you give the players input but sometimes they will react half second later because they need to physically adapt to the input you gave them.

Obviously there is the usual exaggeration (several seconds for players to react? What?) to try and make their own point.

Unfortunately i already know where this is going and how this will affect the final code.

I would like to show people complaining about players "taking ages" to control the ball thiis match between two of of the most skilled teams filled with top players



People should just look (even by watching the very first minutes) at how many times even the most technical player in this match takes seconds to control the ball. Pes is realistic, don't like that? Go play Fifa. Not meant to feel as an offense or fanboy intent, it's just the truth. If you like your game to be more arcade football and less realistic, you can play with that, arcade is fun. There is no shame into admitting you want to play an arcade game, just don't try to find issues where there aren't.

I don’t mind this guy having criticisms, what I have a problem with is that he’s not given any actual examples or evidence to support his claims, simply said “I don’t like it”.

The fact that he’s not once mentioned finesse dribble or finesse touch in his rant just makes me believe that he’s not using all the controls available to him.

Surely when claiming something is broken you should prove that you’ve done everything possible to make it work.

 

[Chris Davies]

Here we go again.

If you want to compare the games, go to the right place: The FIFA & PES Comparison Thread.

 

[tomj]

Sometimes i read on reddit wepes section what people think and there are more and more ex Fifa fans coming to Pes or wanting to come to Pes complaining about responsiveness. I am terrified by their feedback.

I've been a mod on r/WEPES since early 2016 ish and it genuinely takes so much will power to not blindly delete any thread that starts with 'COMING FROM FIFA BUT...'

On the plus side, I've almost managed to get my ban in place on any submitted videos filmed vertically with a mobile phone...

 

[mfmaxpower]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with hardly any of this. The only thing that would dent FIFA's dominance is licences and better presentation, doesn't matter how good,fast or responsive the gameplay is because licenses are absolute king these days. Even many FIFA players openly admit to only playing it because it has everything whether it's good or bad to play.

PES has been very responsive in the past and twitch based ,This is the first year in long time it's gone down a more simulation route and for some of us it's what we've been waiting for & we don't want it ruined. We know it has issues but the majority are pleased for a change.

I don't buy the idea that Konami should cater to players coming from AAA fast paced twitch games? Why should they? There's already a football game for that & PES has been guilty of being that way in previous iterations, it's nice to have something different for a change.

Again and I stress, there is nothing wrong with the player responsiveness (excluding loose balls which are an issue) in this year's game and it is not sluggish. It's by design and takes time to learn the mechanics. Once you shake off the need to have every input action carried out immediately you'll see how organic it actually is and it starts to flow beautifully. I understand your frustration, I really do because it felt weird to me at first but there's a reason it's like this and we like it.

I'm just trying to give the point of view of someone who's a bit more main stream than folks typically are in here, as the opinions expressed in here are often quite extreme relative to what most football gamers seem to think and want these days. And when it comes to responsiveness in PES, I believe the criticism is warranted.

And when it comes to responsiveness, I think it's fair to say that most people want an in-game reaction as immediate as possible after they press a button on the controller. In PES however, often the game chooses to ignore or delay my input. Sometimes it even locks me out of control, and other times it even overrides my intention with what the game thinks is best.

This isn't about realism, or player momentum, or football fundamentals... this isn't about FIFA v PES... this about basic proper good gameplay design.

I'm not suggesting that PES should become FIFA. I'd hate that. But there's certainly room to be better, and when so many people - who aren't already hardcore fans - give up on the game because PES removes control and freedom from players for the sake of its gameplay vision, there's a big clue there about what might need some improvement. The more I think about it, the more I think the RDR2 comparison is spot on - a potential masterpiece but with some flaws in its control scheme and how it handles.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I don’t mind this guy having criticisms, what I have a problem with is that he’s not given any actual examples or evidence to support his claims, simply said “I don’t like it”.

The fact that he’s not once mentioned finesse dribble or finesse touch in his rant just makes me believe that he’s not using all the controls available to him.

Surely when claiming something is broken you should prove that you’ve done everything possible to make it work.

Well I did give an example. Like I said, it drives me nuts when I press the pass or shoot button and my player takes an extra touch before executing my command, which by then I might wish to do something different. The worst for me is when you're in the box and you want to do a first-time shot or clearance but your player will take a touch first.

Another example is playing as Man Utd, I often will attempt a quick burst off the first touch with Lukaku, but the game sometimes chooses instead for Lukaku to shield, which then locks me into a situation that's a pure dice roll. So not only is my intention not allowed, but then the outcome is pretty much out of my hands since I can't do anything. Again, it's the old "on-the-rails" feeling.

And speaking of finesse dribbling, often it's quite delayed. Often I feel like you have to plan your use of it in advance because it can take a moment to kick in. I've seen plenty of people say the exact same thing, so not sure why this is all surprising.

And jeezus this isn't a rant. I think the game plays quite brilliantly for the most part, but there's room for improvement. And while maybe I'm alone in here with these criticisms, look out at the wider world and these are some of the top complaints that drive people away. Personally I think they're warranted; that's all.

 

[Isslander]

The responsiveness is a big part of what makes this demo so great. The minute they try to somehow make it tighter the animations will suffer for it. There are times that I wish an action would be performed quicker by the player I am controlling but I would sacrifice that all day if the game retains the gameplay-feel it now has. What's even more amazing, the AI actually takes a couple of touches now when the situation calls for it. Instead of the ridiculous instant passing of the last few games, they take a bit of time to think now before passing the ball. This would no doubt get messed up as well, after any sort of "responsiveness-tightening" measures.

 

[Goldstone]

I'm just trying to give the point of view of someone who's a bit more main stream than folks typically are in here, as the opinions expressed in here are often quite extreme relative to what most football gamers seem to think and want these days. And when it comes to responsiveness in PES, I believe the criticism is warranted.

And when it comes to responsiveness, I think it's fair to say that most people want an in-game reaction as immediate as possible after they press a button on the controller. In PES however, often the game chooses to ignore or delay my input. Sometimes it even locks me out of control, and other times it even overrides my intention with what the game thinks is best.

This isn't about realism, or player momentum, or football fundamentals... this isn't about FIFA v PES... this about basic proper good gameplay design.

I'm not suggesting that PES should become FIFA. I'd hate that. But there's certainly room to be better, and when so many people - who aren't already hardcore fans - give up on the game because PES removes control and freedom from players for the sake of its gameplay vision, there's a big clue there about what might need some improvement. The more I think about it, the more I think the RDR2 comparison is spot on - a potential masterpiece but with some flaws in its control scheme and how it handles.

I get what you're saying and honestly I wasn't having a go. I think a lot of us, including myself are just very worried Konami might do a complete U-turn with regards to the gameplay before release and undo all the good.

 

[rockstrongo]

I get what you're saying and honestly I wasn't having a go. I think a lot of us, including myself are just very worried Konami might do a complete U-turn with regards to the gameplay before release and undo all the good.

Same here,I'm worried that they start to pay attention to criticism coming from people how are new to the game and don't really have the patience to learn it or adapt to it's legacy and tradition.
I want it to be as is , responsiveness or a different kind of dribbling isn't on my list to improve or change.
Just hope konami stays true to its roots,like I feel they've done with this demo and build.
If I want something else,I'd play that!

 

[Goldstone]

The responsiveness is a big part of what makes this demo so great. The minute they try to somehow make it tighter the animations will suffer for it. There are times that I wish an action would be performed quicker by the player I am controlling but I would sacrifice that all day if the game retains the gameplay-feel it now has. What's even more amazing, the AI actually takes a couple of touches now when the situation calls for it. Instead of the ridiculous instant passing of the last few games, they take a bit of time to think now before passing the ball. This would no doubt get messed up as well, after any sort of "responsiveness-tightening" measures.

Absolutely spot on here, well put. This is the big worry with regards to responsiveness. Id hate to lose those extra animations when passing the ball around. I like the time it takes to perform certain actions and the visual feedback you get from it. You can't perform a lot of these things in real life instantaneously so why should you be able to in the game.
I think people are too impatient when they play sometimes which stops this particular game flowing properly. You have to get the ball under full control and lay off the sprint button more than usual, the game totally opens up I've found when doing this and feels incredibly free & fluid.

 

[mfmaxpower]

The responsiveness is a big part of what makes this demo so great. The minute they try to somehow make it tighter the animations will suffer for it. There are times that I wish an action would be performed quicker by the player I am controlling but I would sacrifice that all day if the game retains the gameplay-feel it now has. What's even more amazing, the AI actually takes a couple of touches now when the situation calls for it. Instead of the ridiculous instant passing of the last few games, they take a bit of time to think now before passing the ball. This would no doubt get messed up as well, after any sort of "responsiveness-tightening" measures.

I don't disagree. The game is very well balanced, and I agree with you that I wouldn't want gameplay to be screwed by changes to make things more responsive in the short term. But going forward it's my hope that Konami can find a way to offer the same realistic gameplay with smooth animations and transitions, while also providing greater freedom and control.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I get what you're saying and honestly I wasn't having a go. I think a lot of us, including myself are just very worried Konami might do a complete U-turn with regards to the gameplay before release and undo all the good.

Totally. And to be clear, the last thing I'd want is for Konami to do is a rush patch of things prior to release that caters to criticism if it undermines the best of gameplay. I'm speaking more in term of long term changes. It remains an area of weakness for the series IMO, that's all.

Also, my memory is fuzzy but I think last year the little polish between demo and full release helped with this a bit for me, and I'm hopeful that will be the case this year too.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Absolutely spot on here, well put. This is the big worry with regards to responsiveness. Id hate to lose those extra animations when passing the ball around. I like the time it takes to perform certain actions and the visual feedback you get from it. You can't perform a lot of these things in real life instantaneously so why should you be able to in the game.
I think people are too impatient when they play sometimes which stops this particular game flowing properly. You have to get the ball under full control and lay off the sprint button more than usual, the game totally opens up I've found when doing this and feels incredibly free & fluid.

Maybe we're talking about different things. What you're speaking to is IMO error and footballing fundamentals, which for me is completely separate from responsiveness.

Asking for improved responsiveness is not asking to be able to do things that aren't realistic. For example, IMO there should never be a delay in your controller input leading to an output on the screen. The key factor though is that if I time something wrong, then it should punish me with a terrible pass or mistimed tackle, etc.

Like, you say that you have to get the ball under full control... um, why? That's not football. Players act on the ball all the time without it being under full control. We should be allowed to do the same, it's just there should be a realistic penalty based on context and players stats.

 

[gabe.paul.logan]

You make a very good point here but it doesn't always mean football games should follow suit. Sometimes it doesn't work in a videogame (including non football ones) or is a good idea to completely replicate something like for like. Football may be faster but that doesn't mean it makes for a better football game. Certain things have to be different to achieve level of realism which translates through a controller & on screen.
You can pull off quick football in PES 2020 & players are perfectly agile and fast enough but there's a momentum & weight in place that makes it feel grounded ,immersive & deliberate.
It needs to be like this IMO or we'd end up with something like E.A's offering that replicates the look & feel of 'watching football' quite brilliantly but not actually playing it with a controller in hand, which is of course only my opinion though.

Basically everyone wants to be Ronaldo