eFootball PES 2020 Demo Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox)

[OBH]

Well I did give an example. Like I said, it drives me nuts when I press the pass or shoot button and my player takes an extra touch before executing my command, which by then I might wish to do something different. The worst for me is when you're in the box and you want to do a first-time shot or clearance but your player will take a touch first.

Another example is playing as Man Utd, I often will attempt a quick burst off the first touch with Lukaku, but the game sometimes chooses instead for Lukaku to shield, which then locks me into a situation that's a pure dice roll. So not only is my intention not allowed, but then the outcome is pretty much out of my hands since I can't do anything. Again, it's the old "on-the-rails" feeling.

And speaking of finesse dribbling, often it's quite delayed. Often I feel like you have to plan your use of it in advance because it can take a moment to kick in. I've seen plenty of people say the exact same thing, so not sure why this is all surprising.

And jeezus this isn't a rant. I think the game plays quite brilliantly for the most part, but there's room for improvement. And while maybe I'm alone in here with these criticisms, look out at the wider world and these are some of the top complaints that drive people away. Personally I think they're warranted; that's all.

Wait, I’m really confused now.

I was commenting on that Reddit post, but literally everything you’ve just said isn’t in that post?

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

[DigitalByDesign]

Total realism..Having to get the ball under control before execution..

The player making the run on the wing is slightly ahead so the ball gets caught in his ankles.He has to regain and control the ball first.Before I can make a clean pass.Or move with the ball.Its logical and how real football and movement work.The same applies for the player who made the initial pass and received the long pass(he had to control a weighted ball with energy and mass).

It’s not delay or lack of response..It’s all tied into the physics and depth of stick control..The miscontrol,error and how both the players and ball have momentum and inertia.Its the same with physicality and how when your locked it becomes more about the stick then the buttons.

Everything now is so contextual from the stick..You can play head tennis and time the point you strike the ball on the bounce or on the floor for a killer pass or strike.

On one level there’s a good game here..But for those that like it unassisted and can see the finer detail..Well,there’s a megatron awaiting Imo..

I’ve not played a more sophisticated game of football in over 30 years.Nothing is so game centric but gives you the thrills and spills of real sport.The joy of manipulating spin on a sphere of air with a controller..And those fluid almost air brushed flowing movements you have with the stick and player your controlling(it’s almost a game in itself and the huge wealth of connotations it affords).

 

[Outsider_1624]

Unfortunately, you're going to have FIFA fans complaining about PES because they don't understand that PES takes time to learn.

Its up to konami to listen to what's being said but also be in tune with who is saying what.

Problems arise if konami has no certainty of which group is "correct". Easiest solution IMO would be a couple of ediion of PES - one PRO edition (FUMA only offline and online capabilities; only aesthetic game patches) and one STANDARD (all control levels; gameplay and aesthetic patches). That way you potentially satisfy existing PES and FIFA players and you rake it in.

Said about a PRO edition a few times back on pesfan but if no-one's bothered, then me neither.

How about collectively from the community we message Adam and tell him leave the game as like the demo, just iron out the small issues.
This is the first time, in like, for a long time, this Pes is actually getting a lot of praise from casual and mainly the hardcore fans.

 

[fregen]

The responsiveness is a big part of what makes this demo so great. The minute they try to somehow make it tighter the animations will suffer for it. There are times that I wish an action would be performed quicker by the player I am controlling but I would sacrifice that all day if the game retains the gameplay-feel it now has. What's even more amazing, the AI actually takes a couple of touches now when the situation calls for it. Instead of the ridiculous instant passing of the last few games, they take a bit of time to think now before passing the ball. This would no doubt get messed up as well, after any sort of "responsiveness-tightening" measures.

Exactly! Put THAT on Reddit.

 

[ninety3twenty]

This is the problem for me. Or I’ve had time with the demo, I’m loving it.

The issue is and the same with Fifa, you can no longer rely on even the final product. It’s shouldn't be allowed to change or we should have the choice to not update.

It’s like buying a green sofa and waking in the front room after a week to find it’s now a red armchair.

If it stays close to this I’ll get it though.

 

[JUNELELE]

Maybe we're talking about different things. What you're speaking to is IMO error and footballing fundamentals, which for me is completely separate from responsiveness.

Asking for improved responsiveness is not asking to be able to do things that aren't realistic. For example, IMO there should never be a delay in your controller input leading to an output on the screen. The key factor though is that if I time something wrong, then it should punish me with a terrible pass or mistimed tackle, etc.

Like, you say that you have to get the ball under full control... um, why? That's not football. Players act on the ball all the time without it being under full control. We should be allowed to do the same, it's just there should be a realistic penalty based on context and players stats.

exactly. I see this debate for many games many times. People confuse a lack of responsiveness with "realism" or "inertia" and therefore justify a video game character turning like the titanic. When in reality people can actually be extremely agile and precise with their movements. For one, a person has full control over their body, and they can pre-determine their actions - and ready themselves to take that action - far in advance. In video games you only have a controller to simulate all the human movement, and actions are only determined upon a button being pressed. With these two facts in mind I think some leeway in responsiveness department actually makes for a more realistic experience. It's the difference between Red dead 2 and the last of us. It's the difference between pes2014 and fifa16

And no, I'm not talking about not having to take time to controll a difficult pass, or having it take a moment to turn around after being in a full sprint - I'm talking about pressing shoot and nothing happening for 2 seconds, getting tackled in the meantime with the ball rolling a metre from you, and then having the player finally take the shot at the air like their brain is working at a delay.

As you say, responsiveness and realism are not mutually exclusive but it seems many people, across many different games, think they are. I, as a person, am both extremely responsive and realistic , and that feeling should be translated into games too.

 

[Goldstone]

Total realism..Having to get the ball under control before execution..

The player making the run on the wing is slightly ahead so the ball gets caught in his ankles.He has to regain and control the ball first.Before I can make a clean pass.Or move with the ball.Its logical and how real football and movement work.The same applies for the player who made the initial pass and received the long pass(he had to control a weighted ball with energy and mass).

It’s not delay or lack of response..It’s all tied into the physics and depth of stick control..The miscontrol,error and how both the players and ball have momentum and inertia.Its the same with physicality and how when your locked it becomes more about the stick then the buttons.

Everything now is so contextual from the stick..You can play head tennis and time the point you strike the ball on the bounce or on the floor for a killer pass or strike.

On one level there’s a good game here..But for those that like it unassisted and can see the finer detail..Well,there’s a megatron awaiting Imo..

I’ve not played a more sophisticated game of football in over 30 years.Nothing is so game centric but gives you the thrills and spills of real sport.The joy of manipulating spin on a sphere of air with a controller..And those fluid almost air brushed flowing movements you have with the stick and player your controlling(it’s almost a game in itself and the huge wealth of connotations it affords).

Absolutely love this. Brilliantly articulated & exactly how the game makes me feel.

 

[NIK778899]

I've been a mod on r/WEPES since early 2016 ish and it genuinely takes so much will power to not blindly delete Anothergen's account.

Fixed that for you

 

[NathW90]

How the hell do you take a good corner in PES? They seem so floaty and inaccurate, and no one seems to really attack them.

 

[Emroth]

Asking for improved responsiveness is not asking to be able to do things that aren't realistic. For example, IMO there should never be a delay in your controller input leading to an output on the screen. The key factor though is that if I time something wrong, then it should punish me with a terrible pass or mistimed tackle, etc.

I disagree and I think it would open a flood gate of even bigger complaints.
Dont get me wrong - IF it was the way you are describing - it would be fantastic.
It would also bring realism on the pitch to yet another level.
But I can already see all the complaints:
- my players cant tackle!
- my players cant pass straight!
- i cant shoot on goal!
And then they would have to increase accuracy, decrease errors and we would end up in exactly the same spot that we started with Pes18 and 19.
I think the way it is now is a happy middle for everyone.

 

[Lami]

Football is getting faster. Mayer tells me that in 2006, when Germany finished third in the World Cup, their players spent an average of 2.9 seconds on the ball each time they had it. By 2014, when they won, that had fallen to just 0.9 seconds.

https://thesetpieces.com/features/athletic-brain-neuroscience-revolutionising-sport/

We're at a point where PES is literally slower than real football, although it needs to simulate matches in 10 minutes instead of ~60 minutes.

This doesn't mean it happens in every game and with every team. It just means the Germans adopted that fast football style, and maybe some other teams do.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

I still can't warm to the demo. Concerned that I was winning on full manual on the hardest difficulty. And then I did lose. To this:


Really deflated as there's a lot to like; but I can't justify buying it as is.

 

[OBH]

And when it comes to responsiveness, I think it's fair to say that most people want an in-game reaction as immediate as possible after they press a button on the controller. In PES however, often the game chooses to ignore or delay my input. Sometimes it even locks me out of control, and other times it even overrides my intention with what the game thinks is best

This comment right here sums up beautifully one key difference of opinion between players that can never be fixed - you will never, EVER get a game of football which can both instantly react to the players commands 100% and be realistic. It isn't possible.

Take the below clips as examples, one from PES 2018, one from real life:

1) In this one there is a point where both of Kroos' feet are off the ground. If you happened to press ANYTHING at this point what would you expect to happen? He can't do anything while he's technically in mid air, even if for only the briefest of moments.

2) Here's a real-life example; imagine if he decided to shoot the exact moment he'd made contact with the defender? It just wouldn't happen, even though it only takes a split second he has to follow through with the contact before he can then do anything else.

So yeah, you'd fundamentally break any attempt at 'realism' should the game become 100% instantly responsive. Animations would have to be cut short and it would look ridiculous at the wrong moment.

Now, I'm not saying that is a bad thing, it just depends on what you want? Do you want PES to be more football, or more video game? And there's no right or wrong answer to that. Just personal taste.

I still can't warm to the demo. Concerned that I was winning on full manual on the hardest difficulty. And then I did lose. To this:


Really deflated as there's a lot to like; but I can't justify buying it as is.

Did that count as an own goal? I know the fact it went through Countinho's head is the main issue, but I'm interested.

 

[Schwarzenbeck]

Play a game in the easiest difficulty, then get near the box and start firing shots away.
Hold the left stick back in the opposite direction to which you're going to shoot to hit low balls, of course body positioning will also affect how low, how curled, how much spin the shot is going to have.
Then do the same, but while holding the left stick forward in the same direction to which you're going to shoot and notice the difference.

DO that through out the entire match, even if it seems silly or boring. After that go play a real game and you'll feel much comfortable although it takes months to do it subconsciously or without being too self-aware or second guessing yourself when push comes to shove.

Thanks, Chuny. @OBH gave me a similar run down and that already helped a lot. The practical problem I have is that with anything below TP the AI is parking the bus in their box and it's almost impossible to test shots, because pretty much everything is blocked. On TP and SS, on the other hand, I am mostly occupied with defending.

I regret more and more that Konami didn't include a training mode in the demo. Another proof that they simply don't understand how user-centered design works.

 

[Bonano]

Reading this whole responsiveness discussion was fascinating to me, so I played a couple of games to try to understand it (understand what @mfmaxpower ment).

Had this scenario where I thought "well my players respond perfectly fine, I don't see what's up"


Then later I had these two and I could kinda see what mfmaxpower talked about


In both of them my players control/trap the ball even though I pushed the shoot button (in the latter I go on to super cancel so he doesn't shoot at all).

In both however it is also a very fine margin between my command and the time the ball reaches the player which is milliseconds in my experience, so yes, you sort of have to know that you wanna shoot, pass or whatever slightly before you do it. Compare it also to the first video where I clearly press pass and shoot before the actual pass and shots happen.

IMO this is not unfair or bad game design since the margin is so narrow but that's just my opinion.

Some might experience this in a different way but may I ask those who feel this is unresponsive:
1) do you play on- or offline, and if both, is there a difference?
2) how is the actual responsetime on your TV and have you set it to game mode (if not on PC)?

Btw I'm not asking this to be arrogant. People of course do perceive things differently but there's also a chance that your set up/main mode might contribute to the game actually being less responsive.

 

[orangebard]

How the hell do you take a good corner in PES? They seem so floaty and inaccurate, and no one seems to really attack them.

When I'm taking them from the right hand side (your own right wing) I always do the 'far post' strategy then aim slightly left of the penalty spot, hold up and do about 60% power. You normally get a runner coming towards the ball and most of the time you will get a shot on target.

 

[Schwarzenbeck]

This doesn't mean it happens in every game and with every team. It just means the Germans adopted that fast football style, and maybe some other teams do.

We cultivated it perhaps most during 2010 WC (in summary to no avail), but if you compare an average Bundesliga match to an average EPL one, there is still a noticeable speed difference (Bundesliga much slower). Which kind of confirms your point, though I would agree with @majuh that an explosive style, high speed football like you have with Liverpool, ManCity or Dortmund is hard to replicate in PES, at least on the human side. Not impossible but difficult.

 

[JUNELELE]

2) Here's a real-life example; imagine if he decided to shoot the exact moment he'd made contact with the defender? It just wouldn't happen, even though it only takes a split second he has to follow through with the contact before he can then do anything else.

he would kick the ball probably without a lot of power and fall over on his back

what do you mean "it just wouldn't happen"?. Do you think it is a physical impossibility to kick the ball in that instance?

 

[Emroth]

OT - @Rodchenko - kick Pes19 training mode off and practice Advanced Shooting there. Its all the same. Id say you will need not more than 10mins for it to click. And then you can go back to 20 and have fun.

 

[Madmac79]

The way I see it, the second action posted by @OBH would took the player's body "time" to adjust to shoot after the shoulder block, so to represent what happens in videogame when you press the shoot button in a similar circumstance, you would either need to cut the "natural" animation (as it has already been done in the majority of the football games until now) or it would feel, well, "unresponsive" because the player wouldn't shoot "immediately".

 

[Chuny]

Thanks, Chuny. @OBH gave me a similar run down and that already helped a lot. The practical problem I have is that with anything below TP the AI is parking the bus in their box and it's almost impossible to test shots, because pretty much everything is blocked. On TP and SS, on the other hand, I am mostly occupied with defending.

I regret more and more that Konami didn't include a training mode in the demo. Another proof that they simply don't understand how user-centered design works.

If you have two controllers, just play a 1 vs 1 game, on the easiest difficulty and you'll have all the freedom to fire away!

 

[mfmaxpower]

Wait, I’m really confused now.

I was commenting on that Reddit post, but literally everything you’ve just said isn’t in that post?

Are we talking about the same thing?

Maybe not lol... what reddit post?

 

[Flipper the Priest]

This comment right here sums up beautifully one key difference of opinion between players that can never be fixed - you will never, EVER get a game of football which can both instantly react to the players commands 100% and be realistic. It isn't possible.

Take the below clips as examples, one from PES 2018, one from real life:

1) In this one there is a point where both of Kroos' feet are off the ground. If you happened to press ANYTHING at this point what would you expect to happen? He can't do anything while he's technically in mid air, even if for only the briefest of moments.

2) Here's a real-life example; imagine if he decided to shoot the exact moment he'd made contact with the defender? It just wouldn't happen, even though it only takes a split second he has to follow through with the contact before he can then do anything else.

So yeah, you'd fundamentally break any attempt at 'realism' should the game become 100% instantly responsive. Animations would have to be cut short and it would look ridiculous at the wrong moment.

Now, I'm not saying that is a bad thing, it just depends on what you want? Do you want PES to be more football, or more video game? And there's no right or wrong answer to that. Just personal taste.


Did that count as an own goal? I know the fact it went through Countinho's head is the main issue, but I'm interested.

Coutinho goal.

 

[Goldstone]

The way I see it, the second action posted by @OBH would took the player's body "time" to adjust to shoot after the shoulder block, so to represent what happens in videogame when you press the shoot button in a similar circumstance, you would either need to cut the "natural" animation (as it has already been done in the majority of the football games until now) or it would feel, well, "unresponsive" because the player wouldn't shoot "immediately".

Cutting the natural animation is something I wouldn't like at all in this instance. It's part of what happens in football and shouldn't be taken out to make things more responsive. I guess it's all personal preference but I don't get the obsession with having button presses causing immediate actions even if it means breaking the laws of physics & skipping animations just so a shot can be taken. I'm not aiming that comment at you btw but just a general observation.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Total realism..Having to get the ball under control before execution..

The player making the run on the wing is slightly ahead so the ball gets caught in his ankles.He has to regain and control the ball first.Before I can make a clean pass.Or move with the ball.Its logical and how real football and movement work.The same applies for the player who made the initial pass and received the long pass(he had to control a weighted ball with energy and mass).

It’s not delay or lack of response..It’s all tied into the physics and depth of stick control..The miscontrol,error and how both the players and ball have momentum and inertia.Its the same with physicality and how when your locked it becomes more about the stick then the buttons.

Everything now is so contextual from the stick..You can play head tennis and time the point you strike the ball on the bounce or on the floor for a killer pass or strike.

On one level there’s a good game here..But for those that like it unassisted and can see the finer detail..Well,there’s a megatron awaiting Imo..

I’ve not played a more sophisticated game of football in over 30 years.Nothing is so game centric but gives you the thrills and spills of real sport.The joy of manipulating spin on a sphere of air with a controller..And those fluid almost air brushed flowing movements you have with the stick and player your controlling(it’s almost a game in itself and the huge wealth of connotations it affords).

That has nothing to do with responsiveness of controller inputs. You're just described realistic physics and proper football fundamentals, which is all excellent in this game.

 

[PRO_TOO]

What can I say?! This is exactly how it looks when I play the demo on fuma.
I put the Em-Filter on for more realism.


But really. what is there to say!? The game ain’t perfect but the pace and weight and the flow is spot on, imo!

 

[OBH]

he would kick the ball probably without a lot of power and fall over on his back

what do you mean "it just wouldn't happen"?. Do you think it is a physical impossibility to kick the ball in that instance?

No, Kroos could obviously swing a leg at it. He is however also about to take a hit from a defender so it’s hugely unlikely anyone would swing a leg at the ball just as he’s jumping to put his body between the defender and the ball.

The second one is far more difficult. His momentum is taking him past the ball and into the defender, and he’s only stood on one foot, so I suppose he could always kick the ball towards the defender as he hits him, but it would be ridiculous to attempt to attempt an actual shot on goal, especially if the goal isn’t directly behind the defender.

The point is that expecting the game to be both 100% responsive and realistic is ridiculous. It completely ignores instances where the players are colliding with other, or, let’s say you press R2 to let the ball run through your legs, but you press shoot as he’s turning and the balls directly in between your legs? You’d still expect him to immediately shoot? You’d still expect Konami to design some utterly ridiculous wacky animation of a player attempting to shoot at that exact moment? Which absolutely no one would ever attempt to do?

The way I see it, the second action posted by @OBH would took the player's body "time" to adjust to shoot after the shoulder block, so to represent what happens in videogame when you press the shoot button in a similar circumstance, you would either need to cut the "natural" animation (as it has already been done in the majority of the football games until now) or it would feel, well, "unresponsive" because the player wouldn't shoot "immediately".

Summed up what I was trying to say perfectly.

 

[OBH]

Cutting the natural animation is something I wouldn't like at all in this instance. It's part of what happens in football and shouldn't be taken out to make things more responsive. I guess it's all personal preference but I don't get the obsession with having button presses causing immediate actions even if it means breaking the laws of physics & skipping animations just so a shot can be taken. I'm not aiming that comment at you btw but just a general observation.

Oh I agree with you mate.

There’s nothing wrong with either option - skipping animations for ultra responsive gameplay or delayed ‘realism’ (for want of a better expression). Depends entirely on what kind of game they want to make.

I just think that expecting both at the same time is completely and utterly unrealistic.

 

[mfmaxpower]

This comment right here sums up beautifully one key difference of opinion between players that can never be fixed - you will never, EVER get a game of football which can both instantly react to the players commands 100% and be realistic. It isn't possible.

Take the below clips as examples, one from PES 2018, one from real life:

1) In this one there is a point where both of Kroos' feet are off the ground. If you happened to press ANYTHING at this point what would you expect to happen? He can't do anything while he's technically in mid air, even if for only the briefest of moments.

2) Here's a real-life example; imagine if he decided to shoot the exact moment he'd made contact with the defender? It just wouldn't happen, even though it only takes a split second he has to follow through with the contact before he can then do anything else.

So yeah, you'd fundamentally break any attempt at 'realism' should the game become 100% instantly responsive. Animations would have to be cut short and it would look ridiculous at the wrong moment.

Now, I'm not saying that is a bad thing, it just depends on what you want? Do you want PES to be more football, or more video game? And there's no right or wrong answer to that. Just personal taste.


Did that count as an own goal? I know the fact it went through Countinho's head is the main issue, but I'm interested.

I don't disagree with any of this. What you've described are the problems the other game has gotten into by focusing so much on responsiveness. I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but asking for more responsiveness is not the same as asking for physics-defying unrealistic actions. Well, maybe some people want that, but when say I'd like the controls to be more responsive I mean that within the context of the game keeping its realistic foundations.

Simply put, there are times in the game when a controller input is either ignored or over-ridden by the game when it's not clear why. For me this happens most often when trying something first time and your player will take a touch first instead, but it also happens sometimes with player movement and dribbling.

Another example I just had in a game was I had Rashford going after the ball in the box, I charged up a shot, the keeper dove for it and grabbed the ball, and Rashford never initiated a kicking animation. Maybe my timing was off, but because my controller input was ignored, there was no feedback and I'm just left guessing as to why he didn't go for the ball - did the game ignore my button press because it knew I'd fail, or did my input just not register. I'm left to wonder and IMO that's not good design.

For me, the game deciding not to execute a controller input - for whatever reason - is not a good thing.

This is not a massive issue, but I think when you combine it with some of the odd input design decisions and some of the clumsiness with the system pulling off skills and feints, the move from R2 to R3... the game doesn't handle as well as it could and it turns people off. The game is so good otherwise that this won't prevent me from buying it, but I do feel like this is one of the few weak areas of the game.

 

[Madmac79]

Cutting the natural animation is something I wouldn't like at all in this instance. It's part of what happens in football and shouldn't be taken out to make things more responsive. I guess it's all personal preference but I don't get the obsession with having button presses causing immediate actions even if it means breaking the laws of physics & skipping animations just so a shot can be taken. I'm not aiming that comment at you btw but just a general observation.

You can aim it at me if you want, but I'm of the same opinion as you anyway