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Of course FUMA can still have difference between players, your input just sends the intention of where you want to hit the ball, how consistently the ball ends up where you aimed is down to player attributes. That isn't making it somehow "less manual", it's just the same error that exists on assistance being applied to manual.

An example of something that has always been "full manual" on PES with this kind of stats influence would be free kicks. Even on PES6 you basically decided where you're aiming down to the millimetre, yet with a player with a poor FK accuracy stat then even with identical inputs, loads of the shots will not end up exactly where you aimed and will go into the wall, off target or to the GK. With Juninho or Beckham they would be very consistent and you could score a high percentage with identical inputs.

Both are full manual but the players with higher stats are more effective, the same can be true of anything with manual input... Whether each game has done this properly is it's own discussion but saying manual must mean no stats influence is completely wrong. Error/inconsistency is nothing to do with assistance.
 
I see Messi has re-signed with Barcelona for up to 5 years (won't be 5, he'll be 39!)...

This means Konami won't have to frantically re-do all their videos at least! As has been said, this might have been one of reasons to delay
coming out with anything marketing wise.

Barcelona the ideal poster club for PES 2022 - the club are a catastrophic mess atm, with massive debt and unable to register free transfers!
 
Good guy messi signed new deal, must've been good mood after Winning Copa. Should've left that broken club while he can.
 
Hayes said:
Good guy messi signed new deal, must've been good mood after Winning Copa. Should've left that broken club while he can.
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I see it the other way around in that they better should have kicked him out. Nothing new can develop in his shadow. But I guess right now they need those jersey sales more than a clean restart. Mes que un club, my ass.
 
h3li0 said:
Ok, but if its as you are saying, then its not real FUMA, its assisted with the only difference that you have a little more control. You say that you cant switch sides because kicking power is to low, but that for me does not make sense. Every professional football player have enough strenght to switch sides, the thing that changes the outcome in real life its the accuracy they deliver that, or the way they strike the ball. You see Kroos doing switch sides, with pin point accuracy and with the perfect strength, which many of other player cannot do despite hiting with the same strength. So by what you are saying i guess Full Manual only affects the outcome of the shooting direction, and passing direction, since you have to place precisely the space you want to pass/shoot, which allows much more different outcomes and behaviours.

But if Stats matter then its not Full Manual, and that is what i think this new generation of football videogames is missing regarding the PS2 times. They did not find the correct balance. Or its way to scripted where you scence you have almost no control, or you go "FUMA" to have a little bit more control but stats dont matter all that much.

I have to try in training mode with FUMA to see if theres difference between player, because all the times i have tried in normal games i haven´t felt the differences you are saying. I´m not saying you are wrong and that im right, just saying i can´t feel the stats the same way you are explaining, and it feels like i´m playing with same players just with differnet body strenght and speed attributes, and with different shapes.
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No, I think where you're going wrong here is in thinking that "manual" is the opposite of "stat-driven", whereas actually it's the opposite of "assisted" (or even automatic).

Regarding switching: most players can just about get it the width of the pitch, but it depends on whether it's a diagonal switch (IRL players also struggle with that), and still, there are obvious factors that players with better passing stats can take benefit of: the speed, the trajectory, the "whip" or curl, the rate at which the ball slows down in time for the receiving player to collect (so, spin). All these things are affected by stats in PES, including the direct passing stats themselves, on manual.

What assistance does is not just "implementing stats". The computer calculates, given the strength and direction of the user's input, which passing options are the likeliest the user was aiming for, and then directs the ball with the right pacing and into close proximity at the player's feet. It also does stuff like this: when you play a 1-2, and you instinctively pass the "2" back at the player where he is when he starts his run, it'll direct it where he is running to rather than where he was.

Manual doesn't do any of that. FUMA players will, of course, argue about whether sometimes there's a little bit of that sort of assistance, whether this demo or that patch "feels" more or less assisted. But at any rate: the basic idea is that it doesn't do this stuff, and this stuff isn't particularly stat driven either.
rojofa said:
Of course FUMA can still have difference between players, your input just sends the intention of where you want to hit the ball, how consistently the ball ends up where you aimed is down to player attributes. That isn't making it somehow "less manual", it's just the same error that exists on assistance being applied to manual.

An example of something that has always been "full manual" on PES with this kind of stats influence would be free kicks. Even on PES6 you basically decided where you're aiming down to the millimetre, yet with a player with a poor FK accuracy stat then even with identical inputs, loads of the shots will not end up exactly where you aimed and will go into the wall, off target or to the GK. With Juninho or Beckham they would be very consistent and you could score a high percentage with identical inputs.

Both are full manual but the players with higher stats are more effective, the same can be true of anything with manual input... Whether each game has done this properly is it's own discussion but saying manual must mean no stats influence is completely wrong. Error/inconsistency is nothing to do with assistance.
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I think another good contrast is super cancel running off the ball, or goal kicks. When you don't use SC off the ball, your forward runs are automatically arced towards the ball/ball carrier. To override it and anticipate where the ball might be going to, or to cover lanes effectively, SC no longer arcs your run to the ball and you go where you input going.

As a result, with SC, unless you're running directly in a straight line at a ball, you will be going faster than without (both for acceleration and speed). People naively think that this means the ordinary running is slower, but really it's just the players running at arcs towards the intended path. So when you no longer taking the arcing route, you hit your max speed and travel at your max acceleration – all of that is still just within the bounds of whatever the player stats are.

Same with taking a GK: you'll see people on assisted use the manual modifier because it feels more powerful. However, it's still constrained by the main kicking power and other ball kicking stats, it's just the kick is no longer arcing its path towards a player that's been selected by the computer given your input.
 
CastoloMessias said:
I see Messi has re-signed with Barcelona for up to 5 years (won't be 5, he'll be 39!)...

This means Konami won't have to frantically re-do all their videos at least! As has been said, this might have been one of reasons to delay
coming out with anything marketing wise.

Barcelona the ideal poster club for PES 2022 - the club are a catastrophic mess atm, with massive debt and unable to register free transfers!
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Off topic but Barcelona are crazy signing him until he’s 39. He has far too much control at that club, it’s as if he thinks he’s bigger than Barca.

Real Madrid and Barcelona have so many money issues and it’s because they insist on giving these ridiculous contracts to players who’s better years are behind them.
 
PotatoCouch said:
I think PES2020/2021 still enjoyable, no?
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Not really no, it depends on the mods obviously
Only thing I'm hyped for is renewal of AFC Champions League licence, new graphics, and that's it
I started to adjust my expectations and not being hyped for 21st, Konami will either make it or break it with their announcement
 
Mikhail said:
Off topic but Barcelona are crazy signing him until he’s 39. He has far too much control at that club, it’s as if he thinks he’s bigger than Barca.

Real Madrid and Barcelona have so many money issues and it’s because they insist on giving these ridiculous contracts to players who’s better years are behind them.
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Before insisting it's football that needs to change, to give them more money...
 
Schwarzenbeck said:
I see it the other way around in that they better should have kicked him out. Nothing new can develop in his shadow. But I guess right now they need those jersey sales more than a clean restart. Mes que un club, my ass.
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Lol kicked him out, what a way to treat the biggest player in club history.

I feel like barca will sell him in next 2/3 years after signing new contract, can't let him go for free.

Barca dont deserve messi right now, that man suffered heavy back pain after carrying them for years. He deserves a much better club, maybe go back to argentina or just retire already. He's pretty much done everything on club & international level.

I wonder who's gonna be next pes cover after cr7 or messi retired 🤔
 
Hayes said:
Lol kicked him out, what a way to treat the biggest player in club history.

I feel like barca will sell him in next 2/3 years after signing new contract, can't let him go for free.

Barca dont deserve messi right now, that man suffered heavy back pain after carrying them for years. He deserves a much better club, maybe go back to argentina or just retire already. He's pretty much done everything on club & international level.

I wonder who's gonna be next pes cover after cr7 or messi retired 🤔
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Frenkie De jong or Pedri or Fati if Barcelona are still partners in 3+ years
 
Spursfan07 said:
Konami will either make it or break it with their announcement
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There's a third option really. The announcement could be a teaser that doesn't really show us anything one way or the other, neither confirming fears nor encouraging hype. More to be revealed at a later date.

Never underestimate their ability to drag this out!
 
janguv said:
There's a third option really. The announcement could be a teaser that doesn't really show us anything one way or the other, neither confirming fears nor encouraging hype. More to be revealed at a later date.

Never underestimate their ability to drag this out!
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Yep, what I don't like is that there are no leaks at all for so long (not in comparison to fifa)
 
Hayes said:
Lol kicked him out, what a way to treat the biggest player in club history.

I feel like barca will sell him in next 2/3 years after signing new contract, can't let him go for free.

Barca dont deserve messi right now, that man suffered heavy back pain after carrying them for years. He deserves a much better club, maybe go back to argentina or just retire already. He's pretty much done everything on club & international level.

I wonder who's gonna be next pes cover after cr7 or messi retired 🤔
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If reports are true he is heading the MLS in 2 years mate but with partnership and sponsors etc eg PES they will make the money back
 
vialli82 said:
Every real player got a market value, except the ones who don't have nothing on TM. Well those ones should be given "50k" or "25k" as a standard...
I talked about created players. And about fakes players in NT such as some in UAE, Korea, Burkina Faso, i don't think they can assign due to (again) licence restriction. But yes, about the algorithm with ages at least, it really looks like lazyness but i checked and it was unmodifiable since PES 2014 in fact. Only introduced on PES 2020, probably for the future (we hope better)
They're lazy in many, many areas, it's sure, and nothing seemed really important for them with their "priorities". But about that (market value algorithm), i just think it's more the fact that the team in charge of Modes wasn't enough competent, or wasn't even aware about the issue at all / what i said is worst that just lazyness :((so don't think i'm defending Konami at all cost, i said one part of the team isn't competent enough : i hope they've learned some stuffs since


Yeah, like PEU etc.
I don't really knows the "creation centre" system, i downloaded some leagues like Turkey, J-League when they weren't in game, and some other more exotic (i think South Africa League lol). But i don't remember how does it worked. Yes, the calendar and everything should be editable. PEU/PLA/PAS are settled from the start > So they're a way to settle it > so there's should be a way to change it. it's as simple a you said.

Or they add a system to add a PEU league with X teams, or a totally "blank" league like 30 players by teams, and we should got the option to erase or add one player on that team / not linked at all with "created players" section : just others ID's. Because on some teams, you only need for example 12 players, like, i don't know Monchengladbach or Dortmund as the rest is on free agents or in Nationals teams. Same as i created Hajduk : only 7 players to create from scratch, the rest was in game (one keeper back to loan and one midfield in end June in more... 9 before that)

Otherwhise, i don't care that much as you for PES 2022. It's not that i will follow blindly, but i need a PS5, and i don't think to have one when the game will be launched. And i won't buy a PS4 version. My PC is also not too old (close to a PS4 standard... So)
Will check again and again if there's a destock. But i don't want to pay it 800 euros.
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Regarding the market value, I kinda do think that KONAMI didn't know about the problem, but this reason isn't strong enough - since this option is modifiable -. and I definitely don't think that the developers would learn from their past mistakes.

I also don't think that I would be playing PES in its release since I also do not have the material for the "so called photo realism" but I'm ready to complain about future KONAMI mistakes lol
 
Hayes said:
Lol kicked him out, what a way to treat the biggest player in club history.

I feel like barca will sell him in next 2/3 years after signing new contract, can't let him go for free.

Barca dont deserve messi right now, that man suffered heavy back pain after carrying them for years. He deserves a much better club, maybe go back to argentina or just retire already. He's pretty much done everything on club & international level.

I wonder who's gonna be next pes cover after cr7 or messi retired 🤔
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But he wanted to leave, didn't he? If Laporta did have some balls, he'd have shown him the door. Look, Lio, we practically paid you half a billion over a period of time in which you and the team basically won shit internationally. Instead we got humiliated by Roma, Liverpool and Bayern respectively. Perhaps it's better we part and revel in the good old times.

Reportedly he accepted a 50% pay cut. That's still 250 million over the next 5 years. It's not that I think he doesn't deserve it but given the bleak financial situation the club is in this is insanity.
 
Spursfan07 said:
Yep, what I don't like is that there are no leaks at all for so long (not in comparison to fifa)
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Yeah, though ironically, EA teased a date for the FIFA reveal, and in the end it was a flashy trailer that lasted a minute with no gameplay and a few buzzwords popped up on the screen. Slightly more on the website, but again not much that you can really gauge whether they've made serious improvements or not. So it's another example of the "third way" ha.
 
I dont know if this is going to make sense but, what if EA and 2k don't want to release a proper "next gen" on PC because they are afraid of PC gamers notice that their games is not next gen at all. I mean, if the game really is next gen, and PC have the same version, PC can go beyond the consoles graphics.

I saw some F1 videos with ray tracing turned on and maxed out graphics and I'm was not impressed. Some Assetto Corsa mods are way more realistic than that.
 
janguv said:
Yeah, though ironically, EA teased a date for the FIFA reveal, and in the end it was a flashy trailer that lasted a minute with no gameplay and a few buzzwords popped up on the screen. Slightly more on the website, but again not much that you can really gauge whether they've made serious improvements or not. So it's another example of the "third way" ha.
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That is to expect with fifa and their trailers and gameplay etc
Most shocking is they can show 20 dribble skills in a row ending in a bycicle kick goal and thinking they are doing something good
Although I have to say the lightning is better maybe the best out of previous games, ray tracing is a plus for fifa but that’s not enough don’t get me wrong
 
Spursfan07 said:
That is to expect with fifa and their trailers and gameplay etc
Most shocking is they can show 20 dribble skills in a row ending in a bycicle kick goal and thinking they are doing something good
Although I have to say the lightning is better maybe the best out of previous games, ray tracing is a plus for fifa but that’s not enough don’t get me wrong
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Are they actually doing RT haha? I really don't see the point on a football game lol. Almost all the surfaces are matte or not reflective enough to make use of it. And when you want weather effects like a slightly misty look in winter matches, you'd use volumetric lighting. RT in a football game just sounds silly to me. Likely only for marketing purposes. Stick it on the box and it helps sell; idiot games journalists who know nothing about technology or game design will give it effuse praise too.
 
h3li0 said:
But if Stats matter then its not Full manual
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I really trying here, but cant understand your logic at all..

Its like you and your friend go to a football pitch. Your friend is good at shooting, you are shite. Both of ye are trying to shoot into top corner.
Your friend hits it, while you break somebodys window.

Going by your logic - its not really full manual on the real pitch then..?
 
Emroth said:
I really trying here, but cant understand your logic at all..

Its like you and your friend go to a football pitch. Your friend is good at shooting, you are shite. Both of ye are trying to shoot into top corner.
Your friend hits it, while you break somebodys window.

Going by your logic - its not really full manual on the real pitch then..?
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you are at best in the morning hours...! ;)

have a good weekend, M!
 
Emroth said:
I really trying here, but cant understand your logic at all..

Its like you and your friend go to a football pitch. Your friend is good at shooting, you are shite. Both of ye are trying to shoot into top corner.
Your friend hits it, while you break somebodys window.

Going by your logic - its not really full manual on the real pitch then..?
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I think I understand the logic. Suppose you're aiming at a 26 degree angle, if the game makes it a 30 degree angle because "stats" then it's not "full manual".

Personally I don't care for full manual. Suppose your virtual player is under pressure from all directions and off balance, should the pass be executed perfectly because "full manual"? But you're not off balance sitting on your couch, the game has to somehow simulate some things virtually. Like pressing, vision, passing stats, errors.

Also, once it's competitive and people care about winning more than having fun, it can still look like shit, even if passing is full manual. Some years ago I watched two guys play competitively with full manual. They didn't attempt to pass the ball unless they had absolutely no better choice. Why pass it when now just keeping it and dribbling is the safer option. It looked just as laughable (perhaps even more so), as a football game with over the top ping pong passing assistance.

Just play full manual with like minded friends if you just want to have a fun game that feels like football, but it's not the solution to any other problem.

Edit: Obviously, I also think that ping pong style assisted passing as seen in recent years is dogshit. There just has to be much less passing assistance by default. Ideally for me a pass should be 50% manual aim, 50% assistance/stats & other context variables, like body position, pressure, etc.
 
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I think this is the first year I've ever been meh about PES. I think I and Konami have accepted it'll never be where it was. New engine should be a chance to showcase something game changing but sadly I think this talk of mobile/console alignment makes too much sense to not be true. Makes no sense to me, but to Konami and for where they are with PES.

Guess we'll see very soon.
 
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