Champions League 2011/12

PLF said:
What a perfect dive by Cavani to get Badstuber very harshly sent off!
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Badstuber's reaction
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I still think Barcelona and Madrid are the big ones, but they can meet each other before the final or have bad luck and loose against anyone! Bayern and both Manchester teams are the next big favorites obviously!
 
drekkard said:
I still think Barcelona and Madrid are the big ones, but they can meet each other before the final or have bad luck and loose against anyone! Bayern and both Manchester teams are the next big favorites obviously!
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I think that too! Barça and Madrid are in an higher tier with the likes of City, United and Bayern (the strongest of that second pot imo) looking for their chance. Then, I see Chelsea, if they gel they will be dangerous.
 
Statistically Barcelona can be ruled out, no team ever has won two consecutive CL's...but now that i have said that here so bold...

To be honest i see 3 possible candidates: Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern.
City still have a huge match against a good Napoli and they have to play Bayern at home...there are still 3 candidates for two places in that group (with Bayern clear favourites to win it).

Like always, i hope for an outsider...
 
Barcelona is f*ckin dominant. They even made my man Falcao look like an ordinary player. I hate it when there's no competition but let's admit Barcelona's gonna get it and be the first to get that record. I only hope for clean games on the road to trophy.
 
Kanouté, i think it is rather easy to "let images speak for themselves".
The first compilation comes from Arsenal fans...enough said i think...
These carefully compiled videos are the opposite of objective reasoning. If i would only care the least bit i could easily make a compilation that suggests that Barcelona is disadvantaged, but to be honest i can't be bothered (since i'm not even a Barcelona fan).
These images are what football is all about...discussions. Take for instance the foul on Malouda in the first clip...30 years ago there would not have been any discussion: penalty. If you give this now there are 8 penalties in every match...this has nothing to do with Barcelona being advantaged.
I do agree with you with on the fair play argument, i don't like the way Barcelona players dive...but be honest...every single football player dives.
I also agree that big clubs tend to be advantaged, but i don't see a complot in it. Take my favourite team Genk, they lost 5-0 against Chelsea and it could have been 10-0. At the beginning of the match Cech clearly played the ball outside the box with his hand...the ref did not see it...complot? No. Error? Maybe...it could also be that as a fan i'm biased because even in the replays it was not that clear...i saw a handball...but a Chelsea fan will be adamant that there was no handball...does it matter? Not at all...you know what...these discussions make football that popular...i'm not sure if i'm convinced about technology to help the refs. It could kill the reason why we all love football: the discussion.
 
For me Barca aren't favourites to win it. I think there are still big questions about their central defence and there keeper is prone to errors, Puyol is too old to play regularly and they might struggle against pace - Arsenal's attack has caused Barca problems for the last two years - if Arsenal's defence wasn't so brittle they could have eliminated them. They also struggle from set pieces, as shown by Milan's second goal. I could see a full strength Bayern edging them, and could see Man City beating them over two legs. If Man City get through their group (which is a big "if" as it's the hardest CL group in recent history) I can see them winning it. Bayern have the motivation of playing at home in the CL final, they have a strong team with a lot of pace on the wings, a better keeper than last year, and some great young players like Müller (probably the best young player in the competition).
 
Good post Edmundo.
About that CL, i think in the end both Bayern and City will go to the knock-out stages...although Napoli is doing fantastic, i think they will end up 3th. In that case i hope they will win the Euro League or the Scudetto. Love that team.
 
I disagree with you Edmundo on a series of things!

First of all, Arsenal didn't pose much of a threat to Barcelona in footballing terms, specially when they didn't even shot at goal for 90 minutes in the 2nd leg! The only reason why Arsenal threatened Barcelona was wasting lots of chances and the refeering in the first match. Yep, referees do mistakes against us too.

Talking about the referees for the 1000th time, all conspiracy theorics always forget a side of the story, like that terrible ref at Highbury last year (that costed us to loose) or the portuguese who befriended Mourinho at San Siro, or the blatant ref we had to endure at Camp Nou against Chelsea THAT year...We had to endure a lot of refeering mistakes all this years, but we simply win a lot and don't moan that much. The more you win the more some people have to criticize you. I'm used to it by now. I even had to hear that Barcelona celebration of the goals was "insincere". Come on...

The other thing I don't agree with Edmundo is that we are weak on set pieces. We conceded a goal on a corner against Milan. That's because Thiago Silva is awesomely good on air balls. It's the only goal we've conceded in a set piece this season, and being the team with less goals against in practically all the big leagues and the team with less shots on goal, I really doubt our defence is slow, bad or aged! We haven't even conceded a single goal since september!

And finally, Valdes is a great keeper and in no way prone to errors. You can find 3 or 4 big mistakes by Casillas for every mistake by Valdes, but people still rate Casillas as extremely safe and Valdes prone to error. I think people don't watch enough games of Barcelona and for some reaons (probably his looks) people underrates him. In fact, as an Arsenal fan, you should remember that CL final where Valdes saved 2 1vs1s to Henry and was key for the win.

I think we're big favorites, but that means nothing in this competition. Imagine if Messi gets injured in 1/8 finals. We could be easily ruled out by ANYONE. The season is long and teams go up and down, both mentally and phisically. And you also need luck.

It's a mistake to think any team will reach the final for sure. Football is football and many things can happen. The history is full of big teams that couldn't win trophies in a row. That's why we love this sport (though if we can be the first to win 2 CL in a row I would love it even more!).
 
(Chelsea vs Barca) Terry foul on Valdes on Chelsea goal ?
(Inter vs Barca) Milito offside goal ?
(Barca vs Inter) Bojan goal ?

it's easy to make compilation, but you can do that with all teams
 
gerd said:
YES!
Genk-Chelsea 1-1. A well deserved point against a much better opponent.
Great atmosphere and the point was celebrated as if Genk had won the CL. This is what supporting litle clubs is all about.
Of course i know that 9 times out of 10 Genk will loose like in London, but this one time they did have a draw.
As a Genk (and football) fan i'm particularly happy with the draw after the reactions in the English press (and i'm not talking about the tabloids, but about the "quality" papers). Once again it was clear how self-centered the English press can sometimes be. Genk were weak, but nobody bothered to point out that at the time all their central defenders were injured and that they had to play with two CMF in the heart of the defense and one RB at CMF. That Toszer (who played CB) had only once before that match had played at CB and that he is the architect of the team with his vision and his passing. Witout all these injuries, it is well possible that Genk would have lost too, but in a more honourable way.
There was also this hack who was writing about Platini and that matches like that are the result of Platini's policy...what a stupid man. Platini wants a more fair division of the money. If he succeeds the result will be that in the future Chelsea-Genk will be a more even match. Now teams from litle countries simply don't stand the slightest chance against big teams because of the unfair division of money in football...
I have nothing against Chelsea, i've always liked them and i hope they will win the CL one of these years...but this year Genk had more right to be in the CL than Chelsea because Genk were champions and Chelsea not. I hope today the English press will reflect on all this, but of course i know better. They will solely focus on Chelsea, how weak they were because they lost a point against "such a weak team"...
Meanwhile yesterday we had a very good time in Genk. Even my daughter (a Chelsea fan) was over the moon with the equaliser.
I'm well aware that after new year Chelsea will still be in the CL and Genk not even in the Euro League and will be burried and forgotten, but right at this moment i couldn't care less...blissfull ignorance. This is what football should be about.
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Gerd good read, I agree with you! Congratulations :BOP:


I have nothing against Chelsea, i've always liked them and i hope they will win the CL one of these years...but this year Genk had more right to be in the CL than Chelsea because Genk were champions and Chelsea not.
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Genk had more right to be in CL than Chelsea? You know for Genk its easier to win championship than for Chelsea.. Even with all the money they have to play Liverpool,Arsenal,Manchester City,Manchester United etc.

Genk got much easier competition.

Btw if you follow Belgium league, how is Lierse japanese goalkeeper Eiji Kawashima doing? So sad great Japanese goalkeeper is stuck in Belgium, I think he got much better potential, for example in Italy/France or Spain. Oh and I have nothing against Belgium league, it just isnt a top european league.
 
Thanks Enzo.
By saying that Genk has more rights to be in the Cl (which is a harsh way of saying it) i mean that Genk are champions and Chelsea are not.

Tougher competition in England? Of course, but that is the down side with all the money ENglish clubs have and Belgian haven't. Besides i'm sure it is as hard for Genk (with their feeble means) to become champion in Belgium, than for Chelsea in England. In fact considering the budgets in the league, it's harder for Genk.
 
drekkard said:
I disagree with you Edmundo on a series of things!

First of all, Arsenal didn't pose much of a threat to Barcelona in footballing terms, specially when they didn't even shot at goal for 90 minutes in the 2nd leg!
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Well last year they were 2-1 up from the first leg, and then were 1-1 on around 70 mins in the second leg. The year before in the quarter final Arsenal were 3-2 ahead in the second leg. In both cases inept defending by Arsenal was their downfall. Silvestre played 2 years ago and had a shocker, last year Fabregas made a big error with a back heel giving away the ball on the edge of his box. You can try and fabricate both matches as easy victories, by saying "Arsenal were no footballing threat" but they created a few chances against you in both sets of matches, and scored in all 4 games. I think if you are trailing a team like Bayern or Man City in a second leg like last year or the year before I cannot see them being so slack at the back. Don't forget what happened in 2010, Inter were "no footballing threat", they were not going to out pass Barca especially at 10 men - yet with a strong defence they couldnt be broken down and Barca went out. To my mind this Barca defence is a bit weaker than that one, with Puyol being older, less mobile and less able to play every game.

drekkard said:
The only reason why Arsenal threatened Barcelona was wasting lots of chances and the refeering in the first match. Yep, referees do mistakes against us too
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I dont think you can say that the only reason Arsenal had a chance was down to the ref, I think you are falling into a trap you accuse others of here. The fact is Arsenal created a number of chances against Barca at the Emirates and while a victory (2-1) might have flattered Arsenal slightly, they created enough legitimate chances to score twice, you could argue that maybe 2-2 would have been a fairer score, but then you could take the other side in the second leg and talk about the red card. The salient point is when you played Arsenal you were not "out of sight" in terms of beating them.

The other thing I don't agree with Edmundo is that we are weak on set pieces. We conceded a goal on a corner against Milan. That's because Thiago Silva is awesomely good on air balls. It's the only goal we've conceded in a set piece this season, and being the team with less goals against in practically all the big leagues and the team with less shots on goal, I really doubt our defence is slow, bad or aged! We haven't even conceded a single goal since september
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Well I seem to remember there was a horrible mix up in the Barca defence during the super cup second leg. I think Kaká took a corner Barca didn't clear it, it went to someone like Pepe who passed it to Benzema who scored. Thiago Silva is very good in the air, but he was almost totally unchallenged. Barca defenders didn't even contest the header from the corner. Yes he's good in the air, but no one seems to command the box when Barca conceed a corner. Who is marshalling the defence, usually it would be the keeper but he doesnt seem to do it. Also you say that you havent conceeded a goal since September, which is true, but you havent really faced world class attacking opposition in that time. Gijon, BATE, Santander, Viktoria, Grenada, Sevilla - with the possible exception of Sevilla none of these teams are at the quality of Champions League knockout opposition. Even Sevilla, never really had attacking intent in that game and played for the 0-0. On the other hand you could say every time Barca have faced quality attacking teams this season (who have exhibited the intention to attack) Real (super cup twice), Milan, Valencia, they have let in more than one goal. Even Sociedad, who were very limited for half of the game, were able to score more than once when they changed and had the intention to attack Barcelona instead of just containing them.

And finally, Valdes is a great keeper and in no way prone to errors. You can find 3 or 4 big mistakes by Casillas for every mistake by Valdes, but people still rate Casillas as extremely safe and Valdes prone to error. I think people don't watch enough games of Barcelona and for some reaons (probably his looks) people underrates him. In fact, as an Arsenal fan, you should remember that CL final where Valdes saved 2 1vs1s to Henry and was key for the win.
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Well I'm not actually an Arsenal fan, I admire the way they play - but I admire the way a few teams in this years competition play e.g. Zenit, Shaktar, Dortmund, Napoli, but I'm not an actual fan I don't make a point to watch every game they play. I think positionally he is not the very best in the world. He let a weak shot from Walcott squirm under him two years ago, after getting his legs wrong and diving over it. Then last year he was horribly exposed by Van Persie's shot at the near post, yes all goalkeepers make errors but that was a catastrophic error to be beaten like that at the near post from an almost impossible angle. He went walkabout for the Arshavin goal too, which meant despite Arshavin being pretty far outside the box, he was able to slowly side foot it into the box. It was a great finish from Arshavin but he had a lot of the goal to aim at due to Valdes positioning. As I say he doesnt really command high balls into his box, and you would think that the coaches of big european teams (Milan, Bayern, both Manchester clubs) might try and exploit this.
 
Concerning this debate on goal keepers, it's not always the most spectacular GK that is the best one. IMO (as a former GK) both Casillas and Valdes are good keepers, but they are overrated.
I like Neuer a lot and i also like Howard (Everton's goalkeeper).
It seems to me that GK's are not as good as 20 years ago, right at the moment there are no Southall's, Dasaev's, Zenga's...the last really good goal keepers were Buffon and VD Sar (and the bitter irony is that they once played for the same team and that the best one had to go).
I think the reason why there aren't any grat GK's anymore is due to the light balls that are used nowadays...when a player shoots those balls make strange curves that are almost impossible to foresee for a GK (look at Van Persie's last goal against Chelsea).

What do you guys think are the best GK's at present? I think now it's Neuer, Howard and Courtois (who is very young, but who has it all) and maybe De Gea, who is getting better and better with Man Utd.
 
I think there are a lot of underrated Gks out there and some are overrated. I would put Handanovic and Hart well over De Gea. De Gea right now seems a disaster waiting to happen. He is improving but the ball he saved with his face is something I've never seen before.
 
I think Neuer, Valdés and Casillas are the best ones. But Varas from Sevilla was outstanding lastmonth, as well as Valencia has 2 of the best goalkeepers in Spain.

I still can't understand how people underrates Valdes so much. Just by pointing out 2 goals in the last 2 years in which he could have done a little bit more. But as with the refs, you could do the same with every goalkeeper out there. Look at Courtois, who is a good goalkeeper, but he was destroyed at the Camp Nou and could have done a little more on some of the goals. It dones't matter, to me he's still a great goalkeeper, but still has a lot to learn. The same with De Gea, who still has to improve the blocking and the 1vs1.

Maybe in the premier league there are more crosses and being great in the air is more critical than in Spain, where it's more important to block shots and be a good keeper positionally in 1vs1. And for instance, at Barcelona is almost as important to use well your feet. You won't find a better passer than Valdes at that, for instance, and people doesn't give him any credit for it!

I agree with Gerd that goalkeepers don't seem to irradiat the same feeling of safety that the old guard did. Maybe there's a little nostalgy for the past there, but to me Buffon, Casillas and Van der Saar in their primer have been the best goalkeepers in the last 15 years, and by far.
 
People found weird when I said Falcao was the best poacher in Europe while ago. I guess you will feel the same now because I'm going to nominated Artur from Benfica one of the best GKs nowadays. He is no Casillas, no Buffon nor Van der Saar of course but, atm, he is solid as a rock (strange, I used this expression twice this day) so we all are given that great sense of security and quietness I always love in a goalkeeper, never felt that since Preud'homme times to be honest. So for me, he is in top10 keeper in Europe right now.
 
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