Arsenal Thread

I always thought the Arsenal thread was full of nutters and now Godo comes in with some crazy arse arguments ;))
 
beachryan said:
*All figures from a single source, transferleague.co.uk. If you don't like their numbers, blame them not me.

Your argument is ridiculous. United are 7th this year. No longer title challengers. Therefore I'm writing off every penny we've spent to date, and will only start counting next season, when we're title challengers again. We win your war. We've spent 0 while being title contenders. Ha.
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And my figures are from the same place.

Chelsea
13/14
52m
12/13
72m
11/12
63m
=188m
Adding the previous 2 years:
10/11
87m
9/10
17.5m
=£292.5m

So not quite £154m then.

Comparing Utd's post-Ferguson drop after being title challengers for 20 years to City who finished 9th and 10th is about as dishonest a caricature of my argument you can can get.
 
Rentboy said:
To think all of this started when Wenger's salary was questioned by a City fan, of all people! :LOL:
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My point was that he was a hypocrite. I'm all for people getting as much money as they can, whether that be you, me, the bloke next door or a football manager.
 
You just said you only had a high wage bill because and listed lots of players you gave ridiculous money to for a lot of years. You can afford to buy two teams worth of players pay them world class player wages and hardly ever play them. You cant see the difference between this and what other teams can do comparing?

Also not counting money you spent over 5 years because you werent challenging for the first two years is barmy imo.

I dont think you are going to convince anybody, like Arsenal supporters cant convince anybody regarding Wenger and the last 9 years.

We should all just leave it. Can we go back to enjoying winning the FA Cup?

WE ARE CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD!!!!!!!!
 
BobbyBox said:
You just said you only had a high wage bill because and listed lots of players you gave ridiculous money to for a lot of years. You can afford to buy two teams worth of players pay them world class player wages and hardly ever play them. You cant see the difference between this and what other teams can do comparing?
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I didn't say that. I said it is higher than it actually is. It is still high, as I said. Besides, the players I listed weren't just "hardly ever used", they were "Winston Bogardes"
Your second point has merit but isn't relevant to my argument.

BobbyBox said:
Also not counting money you spent over 5 years because you werent challenging for the first two years is barmy imo.
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Why?

Given the initial claim, it's far more logical to take into account league position and spending than just "you've spent a lot and so should win everything".
 
I like turtles you know, because they don't get tied up in the politics of the world. When you say "Money ruins football" they say "Yeah, but just chill man.. Eat some lettuce or somethin' or just float with me, its cool you know, let the current carry you wherever it wants man." because that's what turtles like to do and I think that's pretty cool.
 
BobbyBox said:
I always thought the Arsenal thread was full of nutters and now Godo comes in with some crazy arse arguments ;))
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Why is he "crazy", because you don't agree with his opinions and views?

Wenger could not win another pot for 10 years and you'd still find a way to stick up for the guy.
 
Steak Bake said:
Why is he "crazy", because you don't agree with his opinions and views?

Wenger could not win another pot for 10 years and you'd still find a way to stick up for the guy.
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I've explained why i think what he is saying is Crazy, did you miss it? Its a couple of posts up.

You could get banned every month and still come back as another user name supporting a different team.
 
The Genk argument is absolutely ridiculous.
Man Utd and Arsenal had two fine legendary managers whose jib was made easier because of the glass ceiling.
Who knows if Arsenal and Man Utd wouldn't even done even better with other managers?
Considering their financial wealth, imo they underachieved in Europe.

This is not about Genk.
This is about the coïncidence that the clubs that were very strong at the moment that glass ceiling closed itself, became the legendary clubs.
Five years earlier and clubs like Villa and Nottingham Forest would have been the Man Utd and the Arsenal of today. Well, to be honest i'm not sure that would have been the case, because i agree with Beach that you need to be a club from a big city, so perhaps not Nottingham, but Birmingham is bigger than Manchester...
To me the beauty of football is that it is one of the only games were the underdog can win from the favourite. Let the 50th best 100 metre runner start a race against Usain Bolt. He will loose every single race unless Bolt gets injured or gets three bad starts and is ruled out.
In football a team like Anderlecht, Aberdeen or Gothenborg could win a Euro Cup.

All that is over: teams like Anderlecht, Gothenborg, Aberdeen, Ajax, Benfica will never win the CL now because of the glass ceiling and because of the sugar daddies.

I'm not saying that i like the sugar daddies. All i'm saying is that fans from clubs like Man Utd and Arsenal cry murder because of the sugar daddy clubs. It seems as if they cheat...but do they cheat more than these other clubs ? Not IMO.

And another thing. It's not that i single clubs out. It's not about Arsenal and Man Utd. It is also about clubs like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Inter, Ac Milan....

I have nothing against those clubs (except Madrid and Juventus, they went even further in their cheating), but i want more competition in football. I watch lots of English football, but it frustrates me that players like Kompany, Courtois, Hazard, Vertonghen and other fine Belgian players can't play for Belgian teams. Hell this isn't even about Belgian teams. Why couldn't Hazard have stayed with Lille ?

IMO the NBA model is much more fair, the competition is more even with the salary cap and with the draft (imagine Januzaj going to Wigan in the draft).

Oh and i don't have a grudge, it's only pub talk...discussion for the sake of discussion. If Real Madrid play good football why would i be mad if they win the CL ? In the end for me, it's more about the players...i love to watch Modric, Xabi Alonso,Bale...
 
How can ANYONE argue that Arsenal haven't underachieved in Europe?! They have never won a European Cup. Ever. And for a club that has consisted of the likes of Henry, Bergkamp, Van Persie, Fabregas, Ozil, Vieria, Ljunberg etc, this is UNDER ACHIEVING.
 
BobbyBox said:
I've explained why i think what he is saying is Crazy, did you miss it? Its a couple of posts up.

You could get banned every month and still come back as another user name supporting a different team.
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Haha nice edit there Booby! What are you on about anyway? I said before, I WAS JOKING about supporting City/Real Madrid.

I've always been a SPURS MAN THROUGH AND THROUGH! :WORSHIP:
 
I think FFP is trying to a salary cap.

Hopefully Arsenal can win CL and league title soon. Im sure it will be we bought it! . What if ManCity never wins CL ,because whatever reason? I don`t think Wenger will stay beyond 3 yrs. the argument won`t matter.
 
BobbyBox said:
I've explained why i think what he is saying is Crazy, did you miss it? Its a couple of posts up.
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I must have missed it also despite replying to said post. Nothing in there explained why.

All you said with regards to my argument was

"not counting money you spent over 5 years because you werent challenging for the first two years is barmy imo."

Which amounts to saying "The argument is crazy because the argument is barmy". Obviously that's just a repetition, not an explanation/argument.
 
Godotelli said:
I must have missed it also despite replying to said post. Nothing in there explained why.

All you said with regards to my argument was

"not counting money you spent over 5 years because you werent challenging for the first two years is barmy imo."

Which amounts to saying "The argument is crazy because the argument is barmy". Obviously that's just a repetition, not an explanation/argument.
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Booby thinks everyone is "crazy" that doesn't rate Wenger as the "bestest eva!!11"

Poor chap is deluded, bless him.
 
If your not in the title hunt your spending should not matter? Spurs can spend forever and wont count... Arsenal hasn't been in the title hunt since Adebayor score 30 goals and finished 3rd.
 
Godotelli said:
I must have missed it also despite replying to said post. Nothing in there explained why.

All you said with regards to my argument was

"not counting money you spent over 5 years because you werent challenging for the first two years is barmy imo."

Which amounts to saying "The argument is crazy because the argument is barmy". Obviously that's just a repetition, not an explanation/argument.
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It sounds like you're saying a team's spending shouldn't matter if they aren't challenging for the title. So the money Spurs (for example) spent last year is disregarded until they challenge, so in two years time when they've spent only £10m more if they are challenging for the title, we only consider that £10m. Which makes it look so much better than the £100m they spent last year.


I don't think I made sense, sorry.
 
Steak Bake said:
Booby thinks everyone is "crazy" that doesn't rate Wenger as the "bestest eva!!11"

Poor chap is deluded, bless him.
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He actually makes a valid point. It is wrong to disregard what has been spent just because they haven't challenged for the title, as it sounds like Godo has said.

You should stop being a tool and think when you respond, instead of posting to enforce the fact you want to troll an individual.
 
Godotelli said:
I must have missed it also despite replying to said post. Nothing in there explained why.

All you said with regards to my argument was

"not counting money you spent over 5 years because you werent challenging for the first two years is barmy imo."

Which amounts to saying "The argument is crazy because the argument is barmy". Obviously that's just a repetition, not an explanation/argument.
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I said your arguments were crazy and then you came back to say that isnt an argument, then i explained why i said your opinions are crazy by stating the wages thing and the 5 year thing.

Have a look again.
 
bebo said:
If your not in the title hunt your spending should not matter? Spurs can spend forever and wont count... Arsenal hasn't been in the title hunt since Adebayor score 30 goals and finished 3rd.
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TheJinxedOne said:
It sounds like you're saying a team's spending shouldn't matter if they aren't challenging for the title. So the money Spurs (for example) spent last year is disregarded until they challenge, so in two years time when they've spent only £10m more if they are challenging for the title, we only consider that £10m. Which makes it look so much better than the £100m they spent last year.


I don't think I made sense, sorry.
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No. I am not saying that at all.

The claim my argument is in response to is "City should win everything because of the money spent"

Yes, we've spent 450m ( a lot) since the takeover, however, you can't ignore a) the fact x amount of years of those 6 we were not in contention with other teams for the top honours, and b) the spending of our competitors once we were in contention.

Since pulling ourselves into contention for the top honours our transfer net has been high, yes, but not aberrational in comparison to our competitors (Utd and Chelsea)

I chose 3 year spending because I felt that was when we were finally on par with our competitors.
I guess an argument can be made for choosing 4 years (we won the FA Cup and finished 3rd 3pts ahead of Arsenal but weren't challenging for the title) but it doesn't change my argument. It would just mean we have spent 77m more than Utd over the 4 years but still 30m less than Chelsea.
To go further back than that tho would be a mockery because quite clearly we were not in contention.
 
BobbyBox said:
I said your arguments were crazy and then you came back to say that isnt an argument, then i explained why i said your opinions are crazy by stating the wages thing and the 5 year thing.

Have a look again.
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The "5 year thing" was just you saying "it's crazy because it's barmy". :))
 
There's no logic to your argument. It's just basically picking a period that City's spending doesn't look as obscene, and using that to demonstrate a point.

Liverpool haven't challenged for the title in years, so do we only count their spending in the last season?

Chelsea came 6th a few years back, do we discount their spending because they didn't challenge for the title that year?

Similarly United didn't challenge this year, I guess we got Mata and Fellaini for free! Wahey!

City's squad is the most expensively assembled, best-paid squad in England. Fact. Therefore they should damn well be close to the title. That's all anyone is saying.
 
beachryan said:
There's no logic to your argument. It's just basically picking a period that City's spending doesn't look as obscene, and using that to demonstrate a point.

Liverpool haven't challenged for the title in years, so do we only count their spending in the last season?

Chelsea came 6th a few years back, do we discount their spending because they didn't challenge for the title that year?

Similarly United didn't challenge this year, I guess we got Mata and Fellaini for free! Wahey!

City's squad is the most expensively assembled, best-paid squad in England. Fact. Therefore they should damn well be close to the title. That's all anyone is saying.
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When it comes to money in football I think you're tribally/emotionally incapable of engaging in an honest fashion.


And some of your facts again are just wrong. Chelsea's squad cost more than City's. And Utd's isn't far behind. In fact the last few derby's Utd's 11 has cost more.

And, no, "that's all anyone is saying" isn't true, as I've pointed out multiple time now zzzz. If that was the claim I wouldn't have batted an eyelid.

With regards to Liverpool, they've done excellently this season hence the surprise of many.

I've already pointed out what a dishonest caricature it is to bring in Utd (and now Chelsea) as tho they are analogous. Utd finishing 7th and spending 60m after winning the title is clearly a huge balls-up. Same with Chelsea***. Utd will be back just as Chelsea came back. Rare one offs happen. Pretty sure you yourself have said plenty of times that your squad is one of Champions ...well, ex champions now :SMUG:

***but, just for shits n giggles, let's say we only take the last 2 years into account, due to Chelsea's slip, we'd still be outspent by them (and Utd) over that period. Huzzah! we overachieved! :TTTH:
 
Last edited:
When criticising Wenger, lots of goid points have been made back and forth...

But I could not see one very important point mentioned...

Since 2005, the squad was going through an overhaul process. However, this process was disturbed and reset multiple times due to key players up and leaving. First Hleb, Flamini. Then Nasri, Clichy, Cesc. Then Persie and Song. Each case leaving either after years of underperforming/injury or finally hitting the peak of their careers.

Hleb and Flamini were practically unknown before hand. At Arsenal, they immideately exploded on the scene becoming key figures of a newly-forming Arsenal squad. And what did they do right after getting a bit hot? Take off to Barca and Milan out of greed or ambition, moves that practically killed their careers. Very similar case for Adebayor. We all remember the gap his departure left in our front line.

Then reset again...You thought we had a good squad coming, but it got completely demolished due to player's lack of loyalty. Let's try this again.

Nasri, an unproven talent shining through, takes off to City along with Clichy. And we all know the Cesc saga as well.

Reset again.

Van Persie, who has barely contributed at all over the years sidelined due to serious injuries, repays Wenger's faith in him throughout all those injury-strucken years by forcing a move to the clubs biggest rivals after having 1 good season. And Song as well...Many years everybody questions his talent and if he's worth anything, but Wenger keeps his faith. And finally Song looks to come through as a great midfielder now who can even dribble, make great assists, and even get on the score sheet once in a while...And one good season, the stories come through of disgruntled training sessions and the eminent move to Barca which saw him nearly permanently benched.

Yes, Wenger is not fault-free in this era. Especially in letting still capable players like Gilberto Silva go just because of standardized 30-above contract rules and etc. But most of these transfers were practically inevitable as players forced their way out, with a even few of them leaving on frees!!! (Flamini, 1 example I believe).

Even Walcott was about to bail on a free on some rant about wanting to play CF which everybody and their mother knows is just silly.

Try having to rebuidl your squad 3 times over each time in a time of financial crisis with limited funds, a global economic crisis, and money-injected clubs stealing your players/transfer targets & inflating the value
and wages of players in the market.

It's easy to say Wenger was not ambitious
enough during those years. But no one can name another club suffering such player losses (yes, partally their own fault, but undeniably, mostly the player's fault). Not to mention the endless freak injuries and mishaps and goals (Eduardo, Ramsey, Walcott, Wilshere, Diaby, Birmingham FA Cup final, etc,
etc)...

Considering all the negative factors, the arguement is any other club/manager would have drowned against such tides. In fact, we saw clubs already do that against much smaller tides (Liverpool, Man U, etc).

IMO, Wenger's tactical ability has declined as the game has developed throughout the last 10 years. But in terms of managing a team, forming a squad, and being a leader and visionary he's as good as they come. And doing this all with class that he has, never putting the blame on his players who countless times let him down majorly...

I really congratulate him and his FA cup victory. I hope now Mr. Wenger focuses on making the 2-3 top quality signings the squad needs to close the gap a little between Man City and Chelsea.
 
Your talking absolute nonsense with this conveniently selective period, Godo. You know very well a great team doesn't get built overnight, not even with oil money, and you've seen how it is.

Sheikh Mansour spent untold amounts of money in an inevitable lengthy process of hit-and-miss signings until you reached the point where you are today.

You simply cannot sum up what City became by taking only the last 3 years.

This is akin to competing at Archery in the Olympics, firing 52 shots, out of which only 5 were on target, and then say 'hey, only 5 arrows will count, you know, because for all the others I wasn't really challenging for the medal'.
 
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