Arsenal Thread

Godotelli said:
Always moaning about inflated wages etc. and yet is the 3rd highest paid manager in the world of football.
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He's worth every penny. Look at the best paid manager in the world not winnning any silverware! :LOL:
 
I meant Jose, didn't know Pep got better pay. Both are extremes of dull football if you ask me. Results wise they've done great, but I dare any of them to do what Wenger did on a shoestring budget, especially circa 2007-2011, the worst period financially wise.

José won't manage a club that's not financially doped, that I guarantee you. I think he ought to be hoppping from Chelsea to PSG to Man City, back to Chelsea and so on.
 
If its just based on trophies over the last 9 years then yes he is overpaid.

But if you base it on the last 18years then it is worth every penny.

You look at the fact he has improved Arsenal a million times over since he started, created a legacy to leave every other manager after him one of he best infrastructures in world football, then he is worth it.

He basically gaurantees Champions league football that in itself pays back his 8 mill 5 times over.

If you are looking for return on investment then he is well worth he money.

But again if you are basing his wage on recent trophies then 99% of managers are overpaid.
 
Everyone in football is overpaid, it's not news.

Bobby makes a good point - Wenger IS worth every penny to Arsenal owners and board.

I still wouldnt trust him to manage my team long term though, he has gone stubborn and senile. He scraped through against Wigan and Hull in the final - it was a poor cup this year IMO.

Yes, we are worse than Arsenal and have been since I can remember.
 
beating Spurs, Liverpool (best team in the league imo)and Everton was a pretty impressive run to the cup and Wigan beat ManCity (away) doesn`t strike me as a weak run to the cup at all.

aaron-ramsey-celeb.ashx
 
I am a member of an Arsenal forum and the majority on there still want Wenger gone.

They feel that this Cup win is just papering over the cracks.

And now, he has the excuse of winning FA Cup to not deliver in Europe or league for next 3/4 seasons as he can say "Hey, I won that FA Cup in 2014."

I do see their point. I'd love to see him have a crack at the PSG job and try to win the Champions League. But I feel Wenger isn't as strong a manager as he was in the 90s/early 00s.
 
Rentboy said:
I meant Jose, didn't know Pep got better pay. Both are extremes of dull football if you ask me. Results wise they've done great, but I dare any of them to do what Wenger did on a shoestring budget, especially circa 2007-2011, the worst period financially wise.

José won't manage a club that's not financially doped, that I guarantee you. I think he ought to be hoppping from Chelsea to PSG to Man City, back to Chelsea and so on.
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In historical context, Arsenal are "financially doped". It would have been some achievement (in the negative sense) for Arsenal to drop out of the top 4 given all the finances that have been funneled their way, via rule changes etc., over the many years prior.

Rodgers mounted a title challenge right to the final day of the season whilst spending less on a lesser team. I can't remember the last time Wenger managed that.
 
Godotelli said:
In historical context, Arsenal are "financially doped". It would have been some achievement (in the negative sense) for Arsenal to drop out of the top 4 given all the finances that have been funneled their way, via rule changes etc., over the many years prior.

Rodgers mounted a title challenge right to the final day of the season whilst spending less on a lesser team. I can't remember the last time Wenger managed that.
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I think since the Prem has started for Net spend we are like 16th in the league or something ridiculous. To do that and win 8 trophies, building the stadium we did during the economical crisis at the time, with hardly any money to spend.

Spurs have spent much more money than Arsenal, couldn't stay in the top 4, Liverpool over the years have spent more money than Arsenal, couldn't stay in the top 4, Chelsea have spent waaaay more money than Arsenal and managed to drop out of the top 4 in recent times and United this season.

So you can belittle the achievment of him getting it for 17 seasons in a row, but I think we all know it is harder than it seems.

Spurs Won the league cup however many years ago, I bet they would have prefered a top 4 finish then and a shot at the champions league? same with Liverpool in 2011/2012.

So I know everyone takes the piss out of Wenger for what he said, but he was exactly right, 4th place is much more important than the league cup at least, so therefore is better than a trophy. The fact everyone hangs on that is just stupid imo. Everyone knows what he meant by what he said, but they still use it as a stick to bash him with.

You mention Liverpool this season, the liverpool that had no other competitions to trouble them for a large chunk of the season?

Wenger spent more time at 1st in the league, Won the Fa Cup and made the Champions league again. Trying to make Liverpool's achievments more than than what Arsenal have done this season on a 'Lessor' budget, are you taking into account what they spent the seasons before to make the current team they have?

Anyway, you can bash Arsenal and Wenger, but there are two ways to look at it, the very narrow minded way where the only thing that matters are trophies, or you can take into consideration everything that has happened in the period we didn't win anything and understand why we couldn't match the Chelseas, Man Uniteds and Man Citys.

I don't think it is a coincidence that now we are more 'financially free', that we have now Won a trophy. I hope it is the first of many, but we have to wait and see.
 
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Arsene's eyes told their own story ... Its not for ppl to understand he faced it all at this club. Managers are known to turn a club into financial ruins, to be vindicated is just awesome. He can talk about high wages and financial doping... he build a stadium and sacrificed players to fund the club`s books. That is unheard of and his replacement will enjoy the spoils for years to come.
 
BobbyBox said:
Spurs Won the league cup however many years ago, I bet they would have prefered a top 4 finish then and a shot at the champions league?
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That's the problem with Arsenal. You should do both all the time. Before City came along (and only in Mancini 2nd season they were really a top 4 contender) the 4th place was almost an automatic thing for the so-called "big 4". Arsène in most of the seasons, even without 4th place opposition, completely neglected the cups to focus only on the 4th place. That's beneath Arsenal's level.

This season, with the first real title chance in a decade he proved he wasn't a good enough manager. I get all the injuries that they have, so the title probably be out of reach with any other manager at the helm, but the way you guys played against the likes of Liverpool, Man C, Chelsea was such flat out embarrassing and showed that Wenger cannot tactically adapt to play the "Underdog" role. Always playing the possession, high defensive line, without high pressure from the forwards will get you nowhere against teams with better talent.

Hope I'm wrong, because I like Arsenal and Wenger because of their attractive football (plus I loved seeing Overmars playing for you back in the day), but I don't see Arsenal winning the title or even really competing with the other teams, unless they slip up, like what happen this season, with Man U and Chelsea being sub-par.
 
BobbyBox said:
I think since the Prem has started for Net spend we are like 16th in the league or something ridiculous. To do that and win 8 trophies, building the stadium we did during the economical crisis at the time, with hardly any money to spend.

Spurs have spent much more money than Arsenal, couldn't stay in the top 4, Liverpool over the years have spent more money than Arsenal, couldn't stay in the top 4, Chelsea have spent waaaay more money than Arsenal and managed to drop out of the top 4 in recent times and United this season.

So you can belittle the achievment of him getting it for 17 seasons in a row, but I think we all know it is harder than it seems.

Spurs Won the league cup however many years ago, I bet they would have prefered a top 4 finish then and a shot at the champions league? same with Liverpool in 2011/2012.

So I know everyone takes the piss out of Wenger for what he said, but he was exactly right, 4th place is much more important than the league cup at least, so therefore is better than a trophy. The fact everyone hangs on that is just stupid imo. Everyone knows what he meant by what he said, but they still use it as a stick to bash him with.

You mention Liverpool this season, the liverpool that had no other competitions to trouble them for a large chunk of the season?

Wenger spent more time at 1st in the league, Won the Fa Cup and made the Champions league again. Trying to make Liverpool's achievments more than than what Arsenal have done this season on a 'Lessor' budget, are you taking into account what they spent the seasons before to make the current team they have?

Anyway, you can bash Arsenal and Wenger, but there are two ways to look at it, the very narrow minded way where the only thing that matters are trophies, or you can take into consideration everything that has happened in the period we didn't win anything and understand why we couldn't match the Chelseas, Man Uniteds and Man Citys.

I don't think it is a coincidence that now we are more 'financially free', that we have now Won a trophy. I hope it is the first of many, but we have to wait and see.
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Hmmm considering a fair chunk of the sales were in the last few years I don't put much stock in that stat.

Anyway, not buying the argument he has done excellently to remain in the top 4 for so long. Given the lack of competition until a few years ago I'd describe it as par for the course.

Overpaid hypocrite :SHAKE:
 
People sometimes forget how he helped change the club. He could have won the FA Cup 2005 and stepped down from the job and let someone else take the reigns and face all the hardship. It would have been glorious for Wenger - winning the 2004 title unbeaten and in 2005 the FA Cup, then BAM, moved to a new stadium with facilities (and training facilities at London Colney as well) for which the development he oversaw himself.

The truth is, the man is much more than a manager.

Don't get me wrong, Rodgers is looking more and more like a great manager, but he spent a fair amount of money on that team, not to mention he inherited a beast of a striker in Luis Suarez.

Godo makes it sound like Liverpool is a poor horse, but we're talking about a team who paid £37m on Carroll at some point and were spending these sums during a time when they weren't in the Champions League.

I like Rodgers especially for the way he made that Swansea team play, with a much more restricted budget. I think that was even more impressive. But let's see how he fares in the next 3 or 4 years.

You're trying to compare someone who's just getting started to a manager who's been 18 years at the helm.

Wenger's loyalty to Arsenal is just amazing, you can't put a price on that. He knew better than anyone else exactly what Arsenal would go through during the stadium debt years and stuck it out.

I have no doubt in my mind that a fella like Mourinho would jump ship if the club owner/board tells him that the well is gonna dry up and there will be reduced investment. Hell, O'Neil did it at Villa.

Now things are gonna get interesting again for Wenger, the Puma deal and renewed Emirates contract are kicking in and it looks like he can afford an Özil per season.
Nothing of this is financial doping. There you won't find no dodgy £400m sponsorship contracts from Kroenke's associates or half-brothers.
 
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andy18cruz said:
That's the problem with Arsenal. You should do both all the time. Before City came along (and only in Mancini 2nd season they were really a top 4 contender) the 4th place was almost an automatic thing for the so-called "big 4". Arsène in most of the seasons, even without 4th place opposition, completely neglected the cups to focus only on the 4th place. That's beneath Arsenal's level.

This season, with the first real title chance in a decade he proved he wasn't a good enough manager. I get all the injuries that they have, so the title probably be out of reach with any other manager at the helm, but the way you guys played against the likes of Liverpool, Man C, Chelsea was such flat out embarrassing and showed that Wenger cannot tactically adapt to play the "Underdog" role. Always playing the possession, high defensive line, without high pressure from the forwards will get you nowhere against teams with better talent.

Hope I'm wrong, because I like Arsenal and Wenger because of their attractive football (plus I loved seeing Overmars playing for you back in the day), but I don't see Arsenal winning the title or even really competing with the other teams, unless they slip up, like what happen this season, with Man U and Chelsea being sub-par.
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Your first paragraph stating that we should do both all of the time, just sums up how easily they think the task of being in hat top 4 is especially when for a large chunk of the 9years we had less money to invest in players than the 3 clubs above us and the 3 probably below us aswell (if not more).

Wenger set a ridiculously high standard in his first half of life at Arsenal, but to say we should automatically get 4th and win the cups is just not right imo.

Im not saying Wenger isnt to blame, there are lots of mistakes that he has made, but some of them were made trying to make the best of a bad situation. If we didnt build the stadium and invested the money in the team then things could look completely different. Or if when we built the stadium the world didnt go into a financial fuck up, also maybe we could have done better.

I think things are looking up for this club, we have a great mix of players here and hopefully Wenger can learn from away days at the top clubs.

Anyway think what you think, but all that matters is that Arsenal and the fans think he is worth 8mill a year, not really from a City fan, or any other fan to be honest why should you guys get so upset about it? If we are wasting money and our team is shit then it is better for you other teams.
 
andy18cruz said:
That's the problem with Arsenal. You should do both all the time. Before City came along (and only in Mancini 2nd season they were really a top 4 contender) the 4th place was almost an automatic thing for the so-called "big 4". Arsène in most of the seasons, even without 4th place opposition, completely neglected the cups to focus only on the 4th place. That's beneath Arsenal's level.

This season, with the first real title chance in a decade he proved he wasn't a good enough manager. I get all the injuries that they have, so the title probably be out of reach with any other manager at the helm, but the way you guys played against the likes of Liverpool, Man C, Chelsea was such flat out embarrassing and showed that Wenger cannot tactically adapt to play the "Underdog" role. Always playing the possession, high defensive line, without high pressure from the forwards will get you nowhere against teams with better talent.

Hope I'm wrong, because I like Arsenal and Wenger because of their attractive football (plus I loved seeing Overmars playing for you back in the day), but I don't see Arsenal winning the title or even really competing with the other teams, unless they slip up, like what happen this season, with Man U and Chelsea being sub-par.
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Excellent post :WORSHIP:

Wenger built an amazing thing at Arsenal. But if I was a betting man, I'd wager £1000 NOW that Arsenal will not win the league or Champions League with him in charge.
 
Any blind fool has to admit buying or let's say spending £42m on a single player is abnormal for Arsenal under Arsene. We lack fire power and they know it. The thing is w/ Arsene he won't cry like Mou does about not having a 30 goal season finisher.

In retrospect nothing is guarantee , but getting serious in the transfer market is a huge step in the right direction. So, I would agree Arsenal will not win the top honours w/ supplemental generic transfers. This season was a success , but also a failure. Why Wenger was force to use 4-4-2 it was out of desperation . Sometimes through a tactic crisis , it opens new avenues.
 
Rentboy said:
People sometimes forget how he helped change the club. He could have won the FA Cup 2005 and stepped down from the job and let someone else take the reigns and face all the hardship. It would have been glorious for Wenger - winning the 2004 title unbeaten and in 2005 the FA Cup, then BAM, moved to a new stadium with facilities (and training facilities at London Colney as well) for which the development he oversaw himself.

The truth is, the man is much more than a manager.

Don't get me wrong, Rodgers is looking more and more like a great manager, but he spent a fair amount of money on that team, not to mention he inherited a beast of a striker in Luis Suarez.

Godo makes it sound like Liverpool is a poor horse, but we're talking about a team who paid £37m on Carroll at some point and were spending these sums during a time when they weren't in the Champions League.

I like Rodgers especially for the way he made that Swansea team play, with a much more restricted budget. I think that was even more impressive. But let's see how he fares in the next 3 or 4 years.

You're trying to compare someone who's just getting started to a manager who's been 18 years at the helm.

Wenger's loyalty to Arsenal is just amazing, you can't put a price on that. He knew better than anyone else exactly what Arsenal would go through during the stadium debt years and stuck it out.

I have no doubt in my mind that a fella like Mourinho would jump ship if the club owner/board tells him that the well is gonna dry up and there will be reduced investment. Hell, O'Neil did it at Villa.

Now things are gonna get interesting again for Wenger, the Puma deal and renewed Emirates contract are kicking in and it looks like he can afford an Özil per season.
Nothing of this is financial doping. There you won't find no dodgy £400m sponsorship contracts from Kroenke's associates or half-brothers.
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No-one's talking about the first half of his reign. He was brilliant then. Since then tho he has underachieved or, at best, just done the minimal expected given the chronic lack of competition - which was itself not just down to management but also via the lobbying of UEFA ...a form of financial doping itself.

Liverpool's spending in the past is irrelevant in this instance. They still had a lesser squad than Arsenal. Some of the difference between the teams could be put down to less games but that can't explain it all.

The Etihad deal is a fair market price.
 
You make it sound like playing in the Champions League creates such a disparity that cannot be overcome by the other teams.
If so, then why have Newcastle never qualified again for the CL? Why couldn't Liverpool qualify for about 4-5 consecutive seasons, after being a CL regular?
I don't see where this 'chronic lack of competition' comes from. If anything, with the arrival of Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour on the scene, a financially restricted Arsenal was a stronger candidate for dropping out of the CL places than, say, Liverpool, who had been spending more than Arsenal.

Take a look at the Premier League tables through the years, since the Champions League inception.
The league used to be dominated by Man United and Arsenal, alternating themselves in the 1st and 2nd places, but Liverpool and Newcastle also qualified in consecutive years. Even Leeds United were there.

So before suggesting it was any form of lobbying by UEFA or the financial edge of being in that competition that kept Arsenal in this position, just look elsewhere and think of other reasons why Arsenal keeps qualifying for CL.

Is it the manager? I think so. Look at what happened to Liverpool after they sacked Benitez. Look at Man United now! After being in the Champions League for as long as Arsenal, surely Man United wouldn't lose their place? Or would they?
If the disparity of Champions League participation was as bad as some folk suggest, even under Moyes, there would be no way Man United would have lost their place to Liverpool - especially considering how Liverpool missed out on 4-5 consecutive seasons of 'UEFA lobbying', as you put it.

Now, if we ask ourselves why Chelsea and Man City now keep qualifying for CL every year regardless of the manager, I know the answer for that.
 
Also the fact he not only gets in the champs league but also usually gets out of the group stage and for the last few years has only been knocked out by the eventual winners or finalists says quite alot as well (Seeing as Man City struggled to do so :PP)

Again I think we should have done better in this last 9 years, but I still think people are grossly underestimating what we did in this time given the circumstances we were in at the time.
 
I think it will be a shame to see Wenger retiring without the CL trophy. his football philosophy is excellent, his player choices are excellent, relationships with the players, fans etc. but obviously something is lacking out there. the invincibles squad were true CL-winning caliber team but they managed to get knocked out of CL by Ranieri(!)'s Chelski. in the 2006 final, I know it's very difficult to retain the lead as 10 men against Barcelona (or another finalist, doesn't matter), but hell, Wenger was tactically outmastered in the second half by... Rijkaard!

I hope he isn't still working with the same coaching staff of those years.
 
Wenger had his whole world torn apart by Abramovich. Everything he had built and was building towards was a plan to make Arsenal able to compete with the 'other' juggernaut - Manchester United - in terms of remaining in the black but also competing for the premier league.

Then 1bn pounds of sovereign wealth completely blew his plan out of the water. From his point of view, it is simply impossible to compete with that level of, to quote him, 'financial doping'. And I believe that his teams since then have shown that.

Unlike Ferguson, who basically said f*ck you money, I'll win this league by myself if I have to, Wenger basically retreated into 'well it's no longer fair, we'll just do our best' mentality.

Maybe this cup performance will get him some drive back, but I'm not convinced. Even in the Hull game despite all the dominance of possessoin, both regular time goals came from set pieces - neither of which should have been given. Arsene needs to get some drive back, some actual stubborn belief that his team can and WILL compete with clubs he believes are 'cheating'. He needs to suck it up, realise that the premier league isn't fair and go and win anyway.
 
Rentboy said:
You make it sound like playing in the Champions League creates such a disparity that cannot be overcome by the other teams.
If so, then why have Newcastle never qualified again for the CL? Why couldn't Liverpool qualify for about 4-5 consecutive seasons, after being a CL regular?
I don't see where this 'chronic lack of competition' comes from. If anything, with the arrival of Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour on the scene, a financially restricted Arsenal was a stronger candidate for dropping out of the CL places than, say, Liverpool, who had been spending more than Arsenal.

Take a look at the Premier League tables through the years, since the Champions League inception.
The league used to be dominated by Man United and Arsenal, alternating themselves in the 1st and 2nd places, but Liverpool and Newcastle also qualified in consecutive years. Even Leeds United were there.

So before suggesting it was any form of lobbying by UEFA or the financial edge of being in that competition that kept Arsenal in this position, just look elsewhere and think of other reasons why Arsenal keeps qualifying for CL.

Is it the manager? I think so. Look at what happened to Liverpool after they sacked Benitez. Look at Man United now! After being in the Champions League for as long as Arsenal, surely Man United wouldn't lose their place? Or would they?
If the disparity of Champions League participation was as bad as some folk suggest, even under Moyes, there would be no way Man United would have lost their place to Liverpool - especially considering how Liverpool missed out on 4-5 consecutive seasons of 'UEFA lobbying', as you put it.

Now, if we ask ourselves why Chelsea and Man City now keep qualifying for CL every year regardless of the manager, I know the answer for that.
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The lobbying of UEFA can't be argued against. I know you want to believe all of Arsenal's achievements have been "done the right way" but it's an absurdity. One of the differences between you and LFC is that LFC didn't have as far to fall. If not for the changes in the CL, finishing 4th would have seen you out and if you don't get straight back in you start to pay the price. The CL changes and all the money involved have acted as a buffer against failure for previously title-winning/challenging clubs. Utd plummeting from 1st to 7th is a temporary Ferguson-hangover aberration, 30 years in the making. They'll be back. Leeds went broke because they only qualified once. Newcastle qualified for the CL twice but failed the qualifying round. Utd, Arse, Chel, LFC were the top 4 for 7 or 8 years running. The PL was suffering from a chronic lack of competition, quite clearly.

Of course a decent manager is important, and, as I've said, Wenger had a brilliant first half, but my argument isn't that Wenger is a shit manager. The argument is that he has done the minimal expected given the nature of modern football. If he had stayed in the top 4 for 17 consecutive seasons prior to all the changes etc. I wouldn't be making the argument.
 
It doesnt really matter anyway, i dont really care, i personally am happy Wenger is staying and i am hoping for good things next season.

Its all subjective. I personally think the minimum that should be expected of Mancity is to win Every trophy out there for the amount of money they have invested and the players they have but you are happy with the league and league cup only. :PP

We will see what happens next season.
 
I've been reading these posts.
I can understand Arsenal fans. They are glad their club won something (whichis more than us Spurs fans can say).
I alsolove Wenger for the way he changed the Englishgame, he is the most influential manager in the history of the EPL.

But he is not the most succesful.

In fact lately, he and Arsenal are underachieving.

The fact that Arsenal plays CLevery year and gets out of the group stage, is rather logical considering Arsenal are the sixt wealthiest club in the world (source: Football Weekly).

People do not Always see things in perspective.

Lets consider Atletico Madrid. I was very happy because they won La Liga and i hope they will also win the CL. And yes, compared to Real Madrid and Barcelona they are underdogs.

But are they underdogs compared to Almeria, Getafe and every single Dutch, Belgian, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian,Swiss and Austrian club ? No.

The fact that Arsenal come out of the group stage of the CL is mere logic.
Because they are a rich club and they have been traditionally succesfull (which is what hampers Manchester City, on top of that they have been unlucky with grou draws).

I'm glad Arsenal won the FA Cup. I hope this will have a positive influence on this player group, they also deserve to win something after what was a great season (i really enjoyed Arsenal until Ramsey's injury - roughly).

But it is only the FA Cup.

It would have been quite an achievement for Hull, like it was for Wigan. For Arsenal, it's nothing exceptional.
 
We are the 6th wealthiest club maybe but that wealth was tied into building the stadium and infrastructure we have now.

Arsenal put all of their eggs in one basket with the stadium and because of the financial situation could not get through it as quickly as planned.

So one of the only ways forward was to invest time in youth, which we all know now didnt work, it was a gamble (but aas really the only option) that didnt pay off, the good players we had were not winning because of this and wanted to move on, so we were stuck in a constant spiral of trying to build the team up and not being able to because we didnt win, catch 22.

But it is no coincidence that we are now have a team of players that want to stay, a great mixture of youth and experience, we have the stadium off of our backs and new sponsorship deals........then we win a trophy.

I think it is so funny everyone says that we didnt win anything for 9 years, now its 'only the FA cup' and everybody is going crazy about Liverpool for finishing second and not winning anything when they had no other commitments this season.

I know i am flogging a dead horse here but if people cant see the constraints we have been under over the last few years as a contributing factor to why we didnt achieve what we could have in these years then there is something wrong witht he world IMO.

But as always a caveat I do agree that we should have done more and Wenger could have done things differently, but to say he was settling for 4th and doing the minimum just isnt truley reflective IMO.
 
gerd is right though. It's the FA Cup, it will be forgotten about in a few years. Arsenal NEED a league title OR Champions League title. And soon.
 
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