Arsenal Thread

[gerd]

Well, I guess Julio Cesar would be very keen to play for Arsenal rather than QPR

I don't understand that either.
A club like QPR can buy Julio Cesar and Wenger does nothing...
Arsenal with one of Spurs' GK's would be great.

I have the same question about Gaston Ramirez, why does Southapmton can buy him from under the nose of clubs like Liverpool?

 

[BobbyBox]

I think the talk of the season will be very similar to other seasons - that Arsenal are 2 or 3 experienced players away from a title! And, while I don't like these generalisations, this will be true about our goalkeeper spot.
It's beyond me how Wenger goes into a season with money sitting in the bank and keepers as Sczcesny, Fabianski and Mannone. Especially knowing one of them (Fabianski) had a serious injury!
It's beyond perilous to think the young Sczcesny would step up and be a world class keeper this very season. And here we are: he is injured and we have Mannone and Damian Martinez.

A difference between 0 and 3 points sometimes is down to the keeper. Look at Cech stoping that Podolski header and that Giroud deflected shot. He also did very well on that Giroud chance, getting bigger and not going to ground early.
I hate to admit this, but probably if all of those 3 chances happened at our end, the ball would have ended up in the back of the net.
And what's the difference? Perhaps £12m. That could be the price of a world class goalkeeper that Wenger will never pay for. He could have bought Mark Schwarzer 3 years ago for £3m, but he played hardball, trying to get him for half the money! Counting pocket change for such an important position!

From the promise Sczez has shown, then I don't blame Wenger at all for making him our number 1. If you got a world class keeper in, then Sczez would never get a game and obviously wouldn't be great for his development.

I think getting a quality keeper in as a number 2 is nearly impossible as well, how do you buy a keeper that knows he is second and probably will hardly play. The ones that accept that probably are not that good anyway, or don't have great belief in themselves or the motivation to be a number one.

With Manonne I think we have a good number 2, he is hungry and wants that number 1 spot, he might not be good enough to get their at the moment, but at least he has the will. Fabianski isn't a good number 1 as we have seen, but to have him as 3rd choice is also no bad thing as he is a decent keeper when he wants to be

Schwarzer was never a world class keeper either, the same as Scott Dann was never a world class defender, but because everybody was going crazy they were both spoken about like they were the second coming of Christ.

Maybe it would be good to get in a world class keeper for here and now, but then we could lose a keeper that has shown great potential and loves Arsenal, which could be out keeper for the next 10-15 years if he lives up to his potential.

It's always a gamble and you have to take gambles in this game.

 

[gerd]

Scez is a very ordinary keeper Bobby. I GK like Ben Foster is much better than Scez...

 

[BobbyBox]

Scez is a very ordinary keeper Bobby. I GK like Ben Foster is much better than Scez...

I'm not so sure about that, he is no where near the finished article, but he has the potential to be great imo.

He was always going to have dips in form as he is still learning and adapting, especially with his injury now, he just needs to get back to full fitness.

The key thing for me is that he loves the club and he has huge potential. If his development goes well, then we could have a great keeper, that would never want to leave us (Maybe I'm just so paranoid after all of the players that have left )

Ben Foster is in his late 20's and Szcz is 21/22? so older keepers with more experience etc are going to be more stable, but I think it would be to the detriment of Szcz if we got in an older keeper. Unless they are 32-34 and only have a year or so left so Szcz can learn from them and share a percentage of the games.

Otherwise he just becomes a frustrated number 2, that has tasted being a number 1 and may eventually leave.

I think he has got a lot to offer Arsenal, but it may take a couple more years to see him flourish.

 

[gerd]

Bobby, it woulde not be the first time i'm completely wrong, but being a former GK i'm pretty sure Szec will never be a very good GK.
Young GK's like Courtois and Neuer while they are far from the finished product and can make the odd mistake (Courtois' howler a couple of matches ago), but they have something that ordinary GK's doesn't have: a certain charisma, and aura of invulnerability.
I saw Courtois' first match with Genk. He was just 16 and Genk's first 4 GK's where all injured and everybody just thaught, this poor kid...but once we saw him play, one immediately noticed that he was something special.
Other great GK's who had 'it': Schmeichel (the best ever), Southall (my all-time favourite), Tomaszewski, Buffon, Maier, Kahn, Dassaev, Preudhomme.

Szec is not in the same league as all those big GK's...IMO Arsenal have never had a an outstanding GK under Wenger. In all their history, i think they only have had one: Pat Jennings.

 

[bebo]

nah, best keeper on paper in the league is Hart n Reina. Neither has a clean sheet. GK are either heroes or zeros ...a thin line.

 

[Rantboy]

Well, I guess Julio Cesar would be very keen to play for Arsenal rather than QPR

Absolutely! No question about that. As a matter of fact, QPR has 2 excellent senior goalkeepers right now. For them it was an opportunity buy, which for Arsenal would be an absolute necessity!

From the promise Sczez has shown, then I don't blame Wenger at all for making him our number 1. If you got a world class keeper in, then Sczez would never get a game and obviously wouldn't be great for his development.

I think getting a quality keeper in as a number 2 is nearly impossible as well, how do you buy a keeper that knows he is second and probably will hardly play. The ones that accept that probably are not that good anyway, or don't have great belief in themselves or the motivation to be a number one.

With Manonne I think we have a good number 2, he is hungry and wants that number 1 spot, he might not be good enough to get their at the moment, but at least he has the will. Fabianski isn't a good number 1 as we have seen, but to have him as 3rd choice is also no bad thing as he is a decent keeper when he wants to be

Schwarzer was never a world class keeper either, the same as Scott Dann was never a world class defender, but because everybody was going crazy they were both spoken about like they were the second coming of Christ.

Maybe it would be good to get in a world class keeper for here and now, but then we could lose a keeper that has shown great potential and loves Arsenal, which could be out keeper for the next 10-15 years if he lives up to his potential.

It's always a gamble and you have to take gambles in this game.

I respect your opinion Bob, and you're a very reasonable guy. But I totally disagree with you on this. Things have to change at Arsenal. We have to start thinking about the club for a change, instead of worrying about players' development.

It's time like these when Arsenal become a laughing stock and get labelled as a Football Academy, or a selling club.

If there's one thing we've learnt through the years is that football players are spoilt, double-crossing, selfish mercenaries. Look at Song! We had to put up with 2 or 3 years of shitty performances and schoolboy mistakes from him - but we thought "hey, he is getting better, he's improving". Next thing we know, he's off to Barcelona mate! No second thoughts about Wenger, and all the trust.
And in Song's case, you know what? We're better off with Arteta in the DMF role.

Football players can't be trusted, and as such, Arsenal should be a bit more ruthless about it. SCSZ is our first choice GK, but at QPR he would be 3rd choice. Think of it this way. And hey, even if he develops incredibly and becomes a world beater, there's no telling he will stick with the club! When he starts showing outstanding performances, he's gonna move on, because he will be feeling like he's pulling all the weight and not winning trophies (by this time, there will be other kids developing at other positions at the expense of titles). It's the vicious cycle.
He's gonna move on if he comes good. Simple as this.

We've learnt it the hard way with Song, Nasri, Fabregas, RVP, Flamini, Adebayor, Hleb, Cashley Cole... Footballers don't deserve the trust Wenger has on them.

PS: Schwarzer is not a Buffon, Casillas, Van der Sar... but he's (was) a solid keeper that would bridge the gap until ScSZ was ready.
SCSZ is the best we've got, but he's 2nd fiddle material almost anywhere else mate, let's face it.

 

[n4p4st4]

you nailed it, Rendboy.
what about: Marc-André ter Stegen? Also, Giussepe Rossi as a forward. we still need something even if Theo stays (haha), we're better of. in fact, it won't change much. 1 or 2 bys each transfer window would make us a great team in 2 years max with not much spent.

I am not bitter over the defeat. it is expected against teams that spend so much. it's just the reality.

 

[BobbyBox]

Absolutely! No question about that. As a matter of fact, QPR has 2 excellent senior goalkeepers right now. For them it was an opportunity buy, which for Arsenal would be an absolute necessity!



I respect your opinion Bob, and you're a very reasonable guy. But I totally disagree with you on this. Things have to change at Arsenal. We have to start thinking about the club for a change, instead of worrying about players' development.

It's time like these when Arsenal become a laughing stock and get labelled as a Football Academy, or a selling club.

If there's one thing we've learnt through the years is that football players are spoilt, double-crossing, selfish mercenaries. Look at Song! We had to put up with 2 or 3 years of shitty performances and schoolboy mistakes from him - but we thought "hey, he is getting better, he's improving". Next thing we know, he's off to Barcelona mate! No second thoughts about Wenger, and all the trust.
And in Song's case, you know what? We're better off with Arteta in the DMF role.

Football players can't be trusted, and as such, Arsenal should be a bit more ruthless about it. SCSZ is our first choice GK, but at QPR he would be 3rd choice. Think of it this way. And hey, even if he develops incredibly and becomes a world beater, there's no telling he will stick with the club! When he starts showing outstanding performances, he's gonna move on, because he will be feeling like he's pulling all the weight and not winning trophies (by this time, there will be other kids developing at other positions at the expense of titles). It's the vicious cycle.
He's gonna move on if he comes good. Simple as this.

We've learnt it the hard way with Song, Nasri, Fabregas, RVP, Flamini, Adebayor, Hleb, Cashley Cole... Footballers don't deserve the trust Wenger has on them.

PS: Schwarzer is not a Buffon, Casillas, Van der Sar... but he's (was) a solid keeper that would bridge the gap until ScSZ was ready.
SCSZ is the best we've got, but he's 2nd fiddle material almost anywhere else mate, let's face it.

I respect you as well Rentboy but there is so much wrong with what you say.....so so so much wrong.

Why do we bother having a youth coaches/teams at all if this is the attitude Arsenal should have? What is the point bringing any players through youth teams? We should just get rid of our youth teams altogether, because that is what you are implying with your post?

The worrying thing about what you say is 'We need to start thinking about the club for a change, instead of thinking about players development' this is crazy. Players developing is thinking about the club. Otherwise we would have to buy all fully established players for every position and this just isn't feasable for any club.

You buy players with potential and hopefully invest in them to become better, every club has to do it. Or you bring players through your youth Academy. But in order for those players to grow and progress, they need to play, they will make mistakes while they play and they will learn from them and get better.

All of the players that you list didn't all leave for the same reason as well, so just listing all of the players that have left doesn't prove your point at all. In fact I would say more of a reason those players left was due to money more than anything, if we were to buy 24 fully established players we would have even less money for wages and bonuses etc (Not that we could afford to buy all of those players anyway).

You need to have a mixture of experienced and young players in a squad and it just so happens one of these young players is our number 1 goalkeeper. He has a strong connection with the club which two thirds of the players you mentioned who left never had as well. It makes a huge difference, especially if we can be successful over the next few years, if they love the club and have a big connection to it then there is less chance for the players to leave.

Why even mention QPR? Did you ever think why Cesar went to QPR and not a top club? because he isn't the goalkeeper he once was probably (I do not know this, but if he was such a great goalkeeper, why the fuck did no other top teams go for him? or not even top teams, but teams much much better than QPR?)

Schwarzer is a good keeper but nothing more, as I said before, he was better than what we had when everybody was going crazy for him, but I would rather see Szcz develop and grow.

Arsenal have been investing in established/experienced players over the last 2 seasons and we are benefiting from it big time, but it makes no sense to buy these players to take away positions from our most exciting youngster like Gibbs, Wilshere, Frimpong, Coq, Szcz.

If people want to call us a selling club then fine, but it just shows how narrow minded they are and they are not looking at the bigger picture, because we are not a selling club.

Anyway, I know you think differently about Arsenal but I am really surprised at reading what you just wrote, just doesn't make sense.

 

[Rantboy]

I respect you as well Rentboy but there is so much wrong with what you say.....so so so much wrong.

Why do we bother having a youth coaches/teams at all if this is the attitude Arsenal should have? What is the point bringing any players through youth teams? We should just get rid of our youth teams altogether, because that is what you are implying with your post?

The worrying thing about what you say is 'We need to start thinking about the club for a change, instead of thinking about players development' this is crazy. Players developing is thinking about the club. Otherwise we would have to buy all fully established players for every position and this just isn't feasable for any club.

You buy players with potential and hopefully invest in them to become better, every club has to do it. Or you bring players through your youth Academy. But in order for those players to grow and progress, they need to play, they will make mistakes while they play and they will learn from them and get better.

All of the players that you list didn't all leave for the same reason as well, so just listing all of the players that have left doesn't prove your point at all. In fact I would say more of a reason those players left was due to money more than anything, if we were to buy 24 fully established players we would have even less money for wages and bonuses etc (Not that we could afford to buy all of those players anyway).

You need to have a mixture of experienced and young players in a squad and it just so happens one of these young players is our number 1 goalkeeper. He has a strong connection with the club which two thirds of the players you mentioned who left never had as well. It makes a huge difference, especially if we can be successful over the next few years, if they love the club and have a big connection to it then there is less chance for the players to leave.

Why even mention QPR? Did you ever think why Cesar went to QPR and not a top club? because he isn't the goalkeeper he once was probably (I do not know this, but if he was such a great goalkeeper, why the fuck did no other top teams go for him? or not even top teams, but teams much much better than QPR?)

Schwarzer is a good keeper but nothing more, as I said before, he was better than what we had when everybody was going crazy for him, but I would rather see Szcz develop and grow.

Arsenal have been investing in established/experienced players over the last 2 seasons and we are benefiting from it big time, but it makes no sense to buy these players to take away positions from our most exciting youngster like Gibbs, Wilshere, Frimpong, Coq, Szcz.

If people want to call us a selling club then fine, but it just shows how narrow minded they are and they are not looking at the bigger picture, because we are not a selling club.

Anyway, I know you think differently about Arsenal but I am really surprised at reading what you just wrote, just doesn't make sense.

I'm just tired of seeing Wenger getting slapped on his face. He's patient with players who are developing, giving them chances to evolve in a top club. Question: are they patient with the club when they reach their peak?

Buying seasoned players isn't feasible for any club, but it is for Arsenal. When we got Arteta, Mertesacker, Podolski, Cazorla... didn't we get better?
All I'm asking from Arsenal is not to neglect crucial positions such as GK.
I'm painting quite the picture here - the worst case scenario: but imagine Sczcsesny as a 25 year old exciting, coveted in-demand goalkeeper, frustrated by salary caps and lack of trophies, in a side that continues on a trophy drought and still fields lots of inexperienced youths. Do you think he would stay?

I just don't believe in strong connections with the club and loyalty and stuff like that. Loyalty is for us, fans.
Development is good for the club as well, if they stay at the club that is. Are you fully aware of the Walcott situation? He came as a 16 year old and he is what he is today, in great part, thanks to Arsenal. Now he is a contract rebel in his final year of contract, he might leave on a free and, to add insult to injury, he's turning 23, which means Arsenal will not be entitled to financial add ons for player's development. Walcott will walk out with a very lucrative Bosnan-fuelled salary package for himself. But tell me what Arsenal will be getting.

I think SCZC is a great lad, he has lots of potential, but we shouldn't sacrifice bigger things for the sake of his development. And it's not as if he would be eradicated from first team action. If we brought a quality keeper in his late thirties, both of them could see plenty of action.

In many positions it's fine to have young players, but goalkeeper isn't one of them. Very rare exceptions apply, such as Casillas at Madrid.
For most cases though, keepers reach their peek when they're 31, 32 years old. Which is about Julio Cesar's age, I'd say.
We're mentioning QPR because it puts things into perspective. I don't know the intricacies of contract and salary details. QPR seems to be paying a lot to their players. But QPR are a mid-lower table team at best, and even their 2nd choice (Robert Green) would bench our first choice Sczcesney. And that speaks volumes IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I still want the youths (Coq, Ox, Jenkinson, Gibbs, Ramsey, Wilshere) shining with the senior players. But when you have Mannone and Fabianski as competition for Sczcesny, this leaves him in a quite comfortable position indeed. At 21, he should be pushing hard to be first choice ahead of a keeper of the caliber of Julio Cesar, not being the undisputed number one. Wenger should know better than this.

While we're talking about Julio Cesar, do you know how he made his breakthrough? He was very promising when he moved from Brazil to Inter some 10 years ago. At Inter, his competition was none other than Francesco Toldo (who, at some point, benched Buffon and Peruzzi in the Italian national team). And I've watched a lot of Toldo, he was a fantastic keeper. But in 1 or 2 seasons, Julio Cesar snatched his spot and spent a long time as one of the best keepers in the world. Now the cycle is completing for him, as he saw Handanovic doing to him what he did to Toldo.
And that's how you have great goalkeepers, you provide them with great competition.

Right now, let's face it, Sczcesny is not that great, and Mannone and Fabianski don't provide decent competition. At the moment SCZC walks into this Arsenal first team.

 

[BobbyBox]

I'm just tired of seeing Wenger getting slapped on his face. He's patient with players who are developing, giving them chances to evolve in a top club. Question: are they patient with the club when they reach their peak?

Buying seasoned players isn't feasible for any club, but it is for Arsenal. When we got Arteta, Mertesacker, Podolski, Cazorla... didn't we get better?
All I'm asking from Arsenal is not to neglect crucial positions such as GK.
I'm painting quite the picture here - the worst case scenario: but imagine Sczcsesny as a 25 year old exciting, coveted in-demand goalkeeper, frustrated by salary caps and lack of trophies, in a side that continues on a trophy drought and still fields lots of inexperienced youths. Do you think he would stay?

I just don't believe in strong connections with the club and loyalty and stuff like that. Loyalty is for us, fans.
Development is good for the club as well, if they stay at the club that is. Are you fully aware of the Walcott situation? He came as a 16 year old and he is what he is today, in great part, thanks to Arsenal. Now he is a contract rebel in his final year of contract, he might leave on a free and, to add insult to injury, he's turning 23, which means Arsenal will not be entitled to financial add ons for player's development. Walcott will walk out with a very lucrative Bosnan-fuelled salary package for himself. But tell me what Arsenal will be getting.

I think SCZC is a great lad, he has lots of potential, but we shouldn't sacrifice bigger things for the sake of his development. And it's not as if he would be eradicated from first team action. If we brought a quality keeper in his late thirties, both of them could see plenty of action.

In many positions it's fine to have young players, but goalkeeper isn't one of them. Very rare exceptions apply, such as Casillas at Madrid.
For most cases though, keepers reach their peek when they're 31, 32 years old. Which is about Julio Cesar's age, I'd say.
We're mentioning QPR because it puts things into perspective. I don't know the intricacies of contract and salary details. QPR seems to be paying a lot to their players. But QPR are a mid-lower table team at best, and even their 2nd choice (Robert Green) would bench our first choice Sczcesney. And that speaks volumes IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I still want the youths (Coq, Ox, Jenkinson, Gibbs, Ramsey, Wilshere) shining with the senior players. But when you have Mannone and Fabianski as competition for Sczcesny, this leaves him in a quite comfortable position indeed. At 21, he should be pushing hard to be first choice ahead of a keeper of the caliber of Julio Cesar, not being the undisputed number one. Wenger should know better than this.

While we're talking about Julio Cesar, do you know how he made his breakthrough? He was very promising when he moved from Brazil to Inter some 10 years ago. At Inter, his competition was none other than Francesco Toldo (who, at some point, benched Buffon and Peruzzi in the Italian national team). And I've watched a lot of Toldo, he was a fantastic keeper. But in 1 or 2 seasons, Julio Cesar snatched his spot and spent a long time as one of the best keepers in the world. Now the cycle is completing for him, as he saw Handanovic doing to him what he did to Toldo.
And that's how you have great goalkeepers, you provide them with great competition.

Right now, let's face it, Sczcesny is not that great, and Mannone and Fabianski don't provide decent competition. At the moment SCZC walks into this Arsenal first team.

Any player whether he is young old, from the youth team or any other can leave the club for whatever reasons. If the club was to think as cynically as you, they wouldn't invest in any player at all.

To say Rob Green would bench Szcz is your opinion, Green has had quite a fall from grace and is not the keeper he was a few years ago. Also he signed for QPR thinking he was going to be number 1 keeper, then they signed Cesar after. I don't think he would have gone to them if he knew they were getting Cesar.

Lets see how Cesar does this season as well, then we can say how wrong Arsenal were not to get him and the many other clubs in the world, that don't have great goalkeepers that are much much better than QPR, then we can bemoan why we didn't get him.

It would have been good if we had a top quality goalkeeper coming in for the last couple of years in his career and teaching Szcz, but it is too late for that now. Now he has been number 1 he will not want to play second fiddle. If he hadn't been our number 1 I would agree, but it just wont happen now.

He barely has played any games this season anyway, so I don't even know why this is all coming out about our goalkeepers and Szcz? let him have this season and then lets see how his progression is.

I think Manonne has done pretty well in his abscence as well, you are making out like he is a disaster as well?

I would be quite happy with another Seaman or Lehmann, he doesn't have to become the greatest goalkeeper ever, just somebody that we can depend on.

I think it is important that we build our young players that have a strong connection with us, if they are good enough and show potential play them and let them grow. Gibbs, Jenkinson, Wilshere, Szcz, Frimpong all have a strong connection to Arsenal that the other players you mentioned leaving Arsenal never had (Maybe Cashley did once?....but apart from that?), so I don't think it applies to everybody.

I know where your cynicism is coming from, but I think it is a bit too irrational to think like that.

I think Arsenal are heading in the right direction and I think keeping Sczez is good as well.

 

[gerd]

nah, best keeper on paper in the league is Hart n Reina. Neither has a clean sheet. GK are either heroes or zeros ...a thin line.

If those two are the best keepers in the league, then there is something wrong with GK standard in the EPL.
To me Cech; Krul and Vorm are miles above both Hart and Reina...Reina has had some howlers lately...

 

[Rantboy]

Any player whether he is young old, from the youth team or any other can leave the club for whatever reasons. If the club was to think as cynically as you, they wouldn't invest in any player at all.

To say Rob Green would bench Szcz is your opinion, Green has had quite a fall from grace and is not the keeper he was a few years ago. Also he signed for QPR thinking he was going to be number 1 keeper, then they signed Cesar after. I don't think he would have gone to them if he knew they were getting Cesar.

Lets see how Cesar does this season as well, then we can say how wrong Arsenal were not to get him and the many other clubs in the world, that don't have great goalkeepers that are much much better than QPR, then we can bemoan why we didn't get him.

It would have been good if we had a top quality goalkeeper coming in for the last couple of years in his career and teaching Szcz, but it is too late for that now. Now he has been number 1 he will not want to play second fiddle. If he hadn't been our number 1 I would agree, but it just wont happen now.

He barely has played any games this season anyway, so I don't even know why this is all coming out about our goalkeepers and Szcz? let him have this season and then lets see how his progression is.

I think Manonne has done pretty well in his abscence as well, you are making out like he is a disaster as well?

I would be quite happy with another Seaman or Lehmann, he doesn't have to become the greatest goalkeeper ever, just somebody that we can depend on.

I think it is important that we build our young players that have a strong connection with us, if they are good enough and show potential play them and let them grow. Gibbs, Jenkinson, Wilshere, Szcz, Frimpong all have a strong connection to Arsenal that the other players you mentioned leaving Arsenal never had (Maybe Cashley did once?....but apart from that?), so I don't think it applies to everybody.

I know where your cynicism is coming from, but I think it is a bit too irrational to think like that.

I think Arsenal are heading in the right direction and I think keeping Sczez is good as well.

Just for the record, my problem isn't Sczcesny. I have nothing against him, but I have everything against neglecting the goalkeeper position at a club as big as Arsenal.
Since Lehmann we don't have a decent keeper. Almunia never was good enough, and Sczcesny so far doesn't have what it takes to be week in week out a starter for Arsenal.

Even if he was ready, we needed another strong name for the position. The situation is calamitous, Bob. Even Arsene Wenger admitted he was ready to let Mannone go this summer. Now look at us depending on our 3rd keeper who we were ready to part ways with.

Don't get me wrong though, that I'm just posting negativity here because we lost, cause I'm not. I'm very happy with this Arsenal team this season. But seeing Cech working yesterday, some questions have to be asked about our goalkeeper situation. Without Cech they would probably let in an equaliser and even a third.

As much as I'm happy with this team so far, I just can't agree with what they did about our GK situation, when Arsenal has money sitting in the transfer chest and could have much better personnel in the position.

For a team that wants to challenge for the title, Wojcech is still not good enough. Otherwise, people should just accept that we're in it for a top four finish then and be done with it.

 

[BobbyBox]

Just for the record, my problem isn't Sczcesny. I have nothing against him, but I have everything against neglecting the goalkeeper position at a club as big as Arsenal.
Since Lehmann we don't have a decent keeper. Almunia never was good enough, and Sczcesny so far doesn't have what it takes to be week in week out a starter for Arsenal.

Even if he was ready, we needed another strong name for the position. The situation is calamitous, Bob. Even Arsene Wenger admitted he was ready to let Mannone go this summer. Now look at us depending on our 3rd keeper who we were ready to part ways with.

Don't get me wrong though, that I'm just posting negativity here because we lost, cause I'm not. I'm very happy with this Arsenal team this season. But seeing Cech working yesterday, some questions have to be asked about our goalkeeper situation. Without Cech they would probably let in an equaliser and even a third.

As much as I'm happy with this team so far, I just can't agree with what they did about our GK situation, when Arsenal has money sitting in the transfer chest and could have much better personnel in the position.

For a team that wants to challenge for the title, Wojcech is still not good enough. Otherwise, people should just accept that we're in it for a top four finish then and be done with it.

We should have got a better keeper in long before we put Szcz in, but it didn't happen. Arsenal should have done a lot of things in the past, but we need to look at the future and Szcz is part of that and could be a great goalkeeper for us.

If Cech made the saves and Manonne/Szcz played terrible then I might agree with you, but not now.

Szcz hasn't played hardly any games this season and I think he has done enough over the last couple of season to progress this season and prove why he should be in that position, if he is shit, then we can re-evaluate it, but until then.

With Manonne he was going to sell him, but Mononne has proved that he has a bit more about him since his loan move and has taken his chance in the first team reasonably well and to give Szcz something to think about.

I think Wenger is making the right decision personally for the future of the club, maybe not for instant success, but I do think it will be better for us in the long run.

I think we have a great mixture of youth and Experienced players at the moment, so I want to see it develop.

 

[bebo]

If those two are the best keepers in the league, then there is something wrong with GK standard in the EPL.
To me Cech; Krul and Vorm are miles above both Hart and Reina...Reina has had some howlers lately...

validation process is broken...will Messi be the best player in black burn rovers?

 

[jonneymendoza]

i cant understand the hate towards shez, he was easily top 5 goalie in the league last year. better then united GK and at times, looked and played more consistantly then petr ceck. i cant understand u lot.

you are worse then me when i wanted wenger sacked after 3-4 years of winning nothing. Shez makes one mistake begining of the season and everyone is slating him.

Giroud another example. people are all over him, slating him left right and centre and he has only been with us for a month.

this is fucking redicolous and at times, a shamed of fellow gunners. support your fucking club for once lads. give Giroud a season at least and stop slating Shezney as well.

Chelsea fans still support and cheer Torres who has been far worse then Giroud and look how long his played for chelsea. Toss in the fact that Torres was a proven world class striker before joining chelsea with high expectations and price tag puts even more of a mockery of some of u lot slating Giroud who is unproven, bene here for just over a month and cost a fraction of what Torres costs yet Torres's club fans actually "support and cheer" him whilst we slag off Giroud.

Work that out lads

 

[BobbyBox]

i cant understand the hate towards shez, he was easily top 5 goalie in the league last year. better then united GK and at times, looked and played more consistantly then petr ceck. i cant understand u lot.

you are worse then me when i wanted wenger sacked after 3-4 years of winning nothing. Shez makes one mistake begining of the season and everyone is slating him.

Giroud another example. people are all over him, slating him left right and centre and he has only been with us for a month.

this is fucking redicolous and at times, a shamed of fellow gunners. support your fucking club for once lads. give Giroud a season at least and stop slating Shezney as well.

Chelsea fans still support and cheer Torres who has been far worse then Giroud and look how long his played for chelsea. Toss in the fact that Torres was a proven world class striker before joining chelsea with high expectations and price tag puts even more of a mockery of some of u lot slating Giroud who is unproven, bene here for just over a month and cost a fraction of what Torres costs yet Torres's club fans actually "support and cheer" him whilst we slag off Giroud.

Work that out lads

What has happened to you Jonney?! are you getting more sex these days? at least I have Rentboy to argue with

I love the way we all still can't spell our young Polish keepers name

 

[gerd]

What has happened to you Jonney?! are you getting more sex these days?

LOL

Jonney, i don't understand why you would have the least bit of confidence in your Polish GK (why can't he have a normal name like Tomaszewski, Lato, Gadocha, Szarmach or Lubanski, in those days the communists selected players with names one could write).

IMO your big pal Almunia was better than him...

 

[Rantboy]

i cant understand the hate towards shez, he was easily top 5 goalie in the league last year. better then united GK and at times, looked and played more consistantly then petr ceck. i cant understand u lot.

you are worse then me when i wanted wenger sacked after 3-4 years of winning nothing. Shez makes one mistake begining of the season and everyone is slating him.

Giroud another example. people are all over him, slating him left right and centre and he has only been with us for a month.

this is fucking redicolous and at times, a shamed of fellow gunners. support your fucking club for once lads. give Giroud a season at least and stop slating Shezney as well.

Chelsea fans still support and cheer Torres who has been far worse then Giroud and look how long his played for chelsea. Toss in the fact that Torres was a proven world class striker before joining chelsea with high expectations and price tag puts even more of a mockery of some of u lot slating Giroud who is unproven, bene here for just over a month and cost a fraction of what Torres costs yet Torres's club fans actually "support and cheer" him whilst we slag off Giroud.

Work that out lads

It's not everybody here who's slating Sczcezney, it's only me. Except, I'm not slating him
All I'm saying is that he's too green. He's talented, but he's too young, he has some obvious flaws and he is in a position where he can take things for granted - as I said, when you're a 21 year old keeper and still have a lot to learn, normally in a club with the resources of Arsenal FC, you would be a reserve pushing hard to get first team action ahead of your senior GK.
Who can Sczcesny look up to?

I blame Wenger for this one. We try too hard to please our players, afraid that bringing competition could kill their career?
Wenger should've brought a senior world class keeper 2 or 3 years ago, since we saw Almunia wouldn't fly.
But IMO it's not too late. You hire a top class keeper and the others will have to deal with it. Sczc is a professional, he would understand that. And if he didn't, it would mean he's getting too big for his boots, at the tender age of 21.

Arsenal has to do business a little bit more ruthlessly and stop spoon feeding players. When it's time for them to move on, they're ruthless with the club. Therefore, I still think squad quality comes in first place, pleasing your players by not bringing competition for them would be out of the question for me.

Anyway, new personnel for the position was needed. Now, look at us, we're going into Premier League and CL games with our 3rd choice keeper who we wanted to boot anyway.
God forbid, if Mannone gets injured we'll have Damian Martinez, our youth keeper 4th choice. We're walking on thin fucking ice.
People will point out how injuries can happen, which I'll agree. But my point is also the lack of quality available there: our 2nd keeper is substandard quality material elsewhere. Fabianski would be the 4th choice at some other clubs. Mannone is in the same level.
We should have SCZC and a senior quality keeper sharing games between themselves, and then the others would get the odd game here and there.

 

[Rantboy]

I've been thinking about this Julio Cesar situation, since Bobby observed how nobody went for him.
I don't even like Julio Cesar much, to be honest. But I have to admit the guy is a world class keeper. And it shows. He's playing for bottom of the table side QPR, but he managed to hold Chelsea to a draw with a fine display, and the other day he defended a penalty in the League Cup.

Why nobody else went for him?
Chelsea has Cech, City has Hart, United put a lot of money towards De Gea already, Liverpool has Reina, Tottenham has Lloris, Friedel, Gomes and Cudicini! (too much, IMO)
Everton has Howard in excellent form, Newcastle has Krul, Fulham has Schwarzer... you see what I mean?

Give or take, these are keepers performing at a high level for some time (guys like Reina are in poor form at the moment, but you have to show belief in them for what they achieved). Hart is more hype than real quality, but he's solid enough.

Julio Cesar was an opportunity buy, and it would be a very acceptable signing for Arsenal. I like Sczcesny, but if he is every bit as good as he's believed to be, there would be no problem in having some stiff competition.

I like SCZC and think he's talented, has an iron will and great strong personality (contrary to the low key personalities of Fabianski and Almunia). But a 21 year old unproven keeper with still some issues in ball distribution and claiming easy crosses isn't good enough to be absolute 1st choice at Arsenal. I'm with Gerd on this one, that Sczc isn't good enough (yet).

And it amazes me that 90% of Arsenal fans seem to see most things through rose tinted glasses all the time.

 

[bebo]

I think you lots are over analyzing too much . I say before cesc, nasri , song the list goes on these players all started slow and left very good. I was livid w/ the progress of most players n including rvp. We only see so much w/o seeing the whole. We have a chance to get a few wins playing lower clubs. The foot needs to be pressed on the gas and floor it! Hopefully this will kick start the season

 

[gerd]

There is a diference between GK's and field players bebo.
A young field player can slowly develop himself. He can start as a substitute for 15 minutes and then eventually become a starter now and then, being substituted after 60 minutes. The manager can rest him now and then. If he makes errors, team mates can cover up for him.

A GK is totally different. A GK is the organizer of the defense and therefore should play all the time and has no room for error. A GK of a big club should be the finished product.

The EPL has lots of fantastic players, but at the moment not the top GK's. Friedel is top, Lloris should be top, De Gea will become top, Cech is absolute top and Reina was top class. Howard and Mignolet are also among the very best. Vorm and Krul were fantastic last season, but it is too soon to judge them.

All in all i think only Cech, Friedel, Howard and De Gea are fantastic ( Lindegaard is good but De Gea is better, Ferguson is making a mistake when prefers Lindegaar to De Gea).

All the rest are ordinary (Jaaskelainen used to be a top class GK, but he is declining).

Hart is much overrated. Last year he played behind the best CB in the world, now that Kompany has a bad spell Hart is less impressive.

 

[BobbyBox]

I've been thinking about this Julio Cesar situation, since Bobby observed how nobody went for him.
I don't even like Julio Cesar much, to be honest. But I have to admit the guy is a world class keeper. And it shows. He's playing for bottom of the table side QPR, but he managed to hold Chelsea to a draw with a fine display, and the other day he defended a penalty in the League Cup.

Why nobody else went for him?
Chelsea has Cech, City has Hart, United put a lot of money towards De Gea already, Liverpool has Reina, Tottenham has Lloris, Friedel, Gomes and Cudicini! (too much, IMO)
Everton has Howard in excellent form, Newcastle has Krul, Fulham has Schwarzer... you see what I mean?

Give or take, these are keepers performing at a high level for some time (guys like Reina are in poor form at the moment, but you have to show belief in them for what they achieved). Hart is more hype than real quality, but he's solid enough.

Julio Cesar was an opportunity buy, and it would be a very acceptable signing for Arsenal. I like Sczcesny, but if he is every bit as good as he's believed to be, there would be no problem in having some stiff competition.

I like SCZC and think he's talented, has an iron will and great strong personality (contrary to the low key personalities of Fabianski and Almunia). But a 21 year old unproven keeper with still some issues in ball distribution and claiming easy crosses isn't good enough to be absolute 1st choice at Arsenal. I'm with Gerd on this one, that Sczc isn't good enough (yet).

And it amazes me that 90% of Arsenal fans seem to see most things through rose tinted glasses all the time.

Nobody has rose tinted glasses, they just don't agree with you fully, there is a difference.

Also I wasn't just talking about why prem teams didn't buy Cesar, what about the many other good teams in the world in very good leagues?

I think you are very 'here and now' and it is highlighted when after a couple of good games you know that Cesar would have been brilliant for us.

I think we would be better now with a more experienced keeper, but I would rather have Szcz in goal learning quickly and thrown in the deep end. We will see if he sinks or swims, but as I said before over the last couple of seasons he has proved he can handle himself in this league.

I really don't understand why people are talking about him like this now? He has hardly played, why are people talking like this now?

And does it matter that Manonne was our 3rd choice keeper, he isn't now and he has played well filling in. If he kept making mistakes I could understand people's frustrations but now I just don't think there is any reason to talk like this now.

 

[jonneymendoza]

I've been thinking about this Julio Cesar situation, since Bobby observed how nobody went for him.
I don't even like Julio Cesar much, to be honest. But I have to admit the guy is a world class keeper. And it shows. He's playing for bottom of the table side QPR, but he managed to hold Chelsea to a draw with a fine display, and the other day he defended a penalty in the League Cup.

Why nobody else went for him?
Chelsea has Cech, City has Hart, United put a lot of money towards De Gea already, Liverpool has Reina, Tottenham has Lloris, Friedel, Gomes and Cudicini! (too much, IMO)
Everton has Howard in excellent form, Newcastle has Krul, Fulham has Schwarzer... you see what I mean?

Give or take, these are keepers performing at a high level for some time (guys like Reina are in poor form at the moment, but you have to show belief in them for what they achieved). Hart is more hype than real quality, but he's solid enough.

Julio Cesar was an opportunity buy, and it would be a very acceptable signing for Arsenal. I like Sczcesny, but if he is every bit as good as he's believed to be, there would be no problem in having some stiff competition.

I like SCZC and think he's talented, has an iron will and great strong personality (contrary to the low key personalities of Fabianski and Almunia). But a 21 year old unproven keeper with still some issues in ball distribution and claiming easy crosses isn't good enough to be absolute 1st choice at Arsenal. I'm with Gerd on this one, that Sczc isn't good enough (yet).

And it amazes me that 90% of Arsenal fans seem to see most things through rose tinted glasses all the time.

Sczcesny is better then half those goalies u mentioned from other teams last season. Sczcesny hardly put a foot wrong and saved us many games with some amazing saves.

he makes one mistake begining of the season and all of a sudden Almunia is rated higher.

How old was Casias from Real Madrid when he started as number 1 in RM? similar age mate and did he have anyone to look up to? as far as i know, no he diddnt, he has been RM number one goalie for like 15years now.

u dont need competition so to speak to become a top GK. you just need ability and the knowledge to learn from mistakes. thats it. i'd take Sczcesny all day long compared to most GK in the EPL.

 

[jonneymendoza]

There is a diference between GK's and field players bebo.
A young field player can slowly develop himself. He can start as a substitute for 15 minutes and then eventually become a starter now and then, being substituted after 60 minutes. The manager can rest him now and then. If he makes errors, team mates can cover up for him.

A GK is totally different. A GK is the organizer of the defense and therefore should play all the time and has no room for error. A GK of a big club should be the finished product.

The EPL has lots of fantastic players, but at the moment not the top GK's. Friedel is top, Lloris should be top, De Gea will become top, Cech is absolute top and Reina was top class. Howard and Mignolet are also among the very best. Vorm and Krul were fantastic last season, but it is too soon to judge them.

All in all i think only Cech, Friedel, Howard and De Gea are fantastic ( Lindegaard is good but De Gea is better, Ferguson is making a mistake when prefers Lindegaar to De Gea).

All the rest are ordinary (Jaaskelainen used to be a top class GK, but he is declining).

Hart is much overrated. Last year he played behind the best CB in the world, now that Kompany has a bad spell Hart is less impressive.

Seriously mate if u think De Gea will come good and shezney not then something wrong because Shezney is superior then De Gea currently.

De Gea was a joke for united, thats why he got dropped by fergie. he made MORE mistakes then shezney last season

 

[Rantboy]

Nobody has rose tinted glasses, they just don't agree with you fully, there is a difference.

Also I wasn't just talking about why prem teams didn't buy Cesar, what about the many other good teams in the world in very good leagues?

I think you are very 'here and now' and it is highlighted when after a couple of good games you know that Cesar would have been brilliant for us.

I think we would be better now with a more experienced keeper, but I would rather have Szcz in goal learning quickly and thrown in the deep end. We will see if he sinks or swims, but as I said before over the last couple of seasons he has proved he can handle himself in this league.

I really don't understand why people are talking about him like this now? He has hardly played, why are people talking like this now?

And does it matter that Manonne was our 3rd choice keeper, he isn't now and he has played well filling in. If he kept making mistakes I could understand people's frustrations but now I just don't think there is any reason to talk like this now.

Forget any individual criticism to Sczcesny, just consider this as criticism to how Arsene Wenger handled our goal keeper situation.

I think this issue came from me, by seeing how Mannone didn't put a hand out for that Torres goal, and by looking at Kos' own goal... and comparing it all to Cech's performance. The difference was abysmal. In the end, could've been a draw, right? It's a case of 2 points more to Chelsea, 2 less for us. If the title race gets tight, these things matter, you know.

It's nothing to do with Sczcesny alone, it's funny that you guys took it almost as a personal attack when I said he isn't ready yet, not quite the finished article we need. It's especially weird to discuss this, because I quite like the lad!

But I can't stress enough the importance of having someone who can hit the ground running in GK position. I'm very "here and now", as you put it, because the GK position has to be here and now!

Professional football at the level of the Premier League is brutal. You can't have someone learning the trade without compromising results.
What bothers me the most is that we have a very good team on our hands with a shot at the title - but our performance can be hampered by inexperience at crucial positions, namely GK.

Gerd summed it all up perfectly, see his post. A GK doesn't have teammates to cover for their mistakes.

All I'm saying is: there is a senior GK missing in our squad. Everything else is perfect. If our senior no.1 keeper was injured now, Sczcesny would probably be playing right now instead of Mannone, perhaps maintaining the quality of said senior GK.
To sum it all up: the dip in quality when Szcz isn't playing is too big. He should be our no.2 keeper, and the standard would be much higher.

Mind you, I'm not criticizing individuals in the GK position - Mannone is 3rd in the pecking order and he got exposed, but I think he's better than Fabianski (our 2nd).
What I do criticize is Wenger throwing our young keepers in the fire. With money in the bank, he should know better than that.

When you're aiming for greatness, this isn't too much to ask. It's not unreasonable of me to wish Arsenal had a top level senior keeper.

Sczcesny is better then half those goalies u mentioned from other teams last season. Sczcesny hardly put a foot wrong and saved us many games with some amazing saves.

he makes one mistake begining of the season and all of a sudden Almunia is rated higher.

How old was Casias from Real Madrid when he started as number 1 in RM? similar age mate and did he have anyone to look up to? as far as i know, no he diddnt, he has been RM number one goalie for like 15years now.

u dont need competition so to speak to become a top GK. you just need ability and the knowledge to learn from mistakes. thats it. i'd take Sczcesny all day long compared to most GK in the EPL.

I'll go back to my previous point, Jonney. Who can Sczcesney look up to?

Casillas bedded in a brilliant Real Madrid side at 20 years of age, I think. I mentioned him as an exception to the rule. But still, do you know who showed him the ropes, and passed the torch? A certain German legend that goes by the name Bodo Illgner
Casillas could be his son, by the age difference. And I'm sure he learned a lot, a lot.

We human beings either become accommodated or sometimes we push harder, not happy to stay in plateaus. Right now, Sczcesny can take his position for granted really. The others don't come close to him, and he knows it. This can't be good for his development.

 

[bebo]

@gerd fair point!

I just think our keepers have the best record atm in goals allowed.I would agree verm was a fault for the both FK. A capt. That's making too many errors.*oops a can opened.

 

[TheJinxedOne]

Seriously mate if u think De Gea will come good and shezney not then something wrong because Shezney is superior then De Gea currently.

De Gea was a joke for united, thats why he got dropped by fergie. he made MORE mistakes then shezney last season

De Gea is better Sczecezny (united bias) but not by much, and both can become world class without a doubt.

He got dropped because he doesn't compete for balls that are lofted into crowded areas, but otherwise a lot of united fans have been baffled by why he's been dropped. Personally I believe he's been our third best player when he has played. Fergie dropping him is one of wry few decisions I can't see logic in, an why anyone would think Lindegaard is better than De Gea is beyond me (Alan Shearer writing for The Sun) Lindegaard is good, but De Gea is so much better.


But this is the Arsenal thread, for me Sczezcny ( yeah, the spelling will change every time I try) is a fantastic keeper playing behind one of the only defences in the league without a pure leader; someone in the mold of Tony Adams who controls the defence so the keeper can cocentrate on his job, and this is worrying because it leads to mistakes which inetivably makes the keeper look bad, when you need a scape goat the keeper is the easiest target.
At Arsenal it's worrying to see the lack of a real defence leader especially as the club captain is Vermaelan, a centre back, if he can't control a defence how can he control a team? Or perhaps he's trying to do too much and now struggles to do anything? I know how it can feel to be a defender in a weak defence captaining a team (albeit at a much lower level) in the end something had to give and I gave up captaincy to cocentrate on being the defence leader we needed.
Scezcesny is a brilliant keeper, with brilliant potential unfortunately he has awful confidence and its reflected in his play, the only difference is you don't have a back up nearly as good, Flappyhandski isn't half the keeper he could be.

On a side note ,Koscielny what's the deal with him? One week I thought he was outstanding the next he's just bloody awful! If he could sort it out, he'd be excellent!

My two cents.

 

[Rantboy]

Let me go off-topic here, if you allow me, just to lighten up the mood

I don't know how many of you in this thread still play PES. Konami killed a lot of the good things about the game and doesn't seem to care about fans sending letters to complain. So I thought I'd go viral on them instead.

I'd like your feedback, if it's alright. I did one of those Hitler rant movies on those meme sites, but I'm looking for the original file to do it on a video editor, proper stuff.

But firstly, tell me what you think and if I should go ahead with the idea:

http://meemsy.com/v/4019

 

[Godotelli]

There is a diference between GK's and field players bebo.
A young field player can slowly develop himself. He can start as a substitute for 15 minutes and then eventually become a starter now and then, being substituted after 60 minutes. The manager can rest him now and then. If he makes errors, team mates can cover up for him.

A GK is totally different. A GK is the organizer of the defense and therefore should play all the time and has no room for error. A GK of a big club should be the finished product.

The EPL has lots of fantastic players, but at the moment not the top GK's. Friedel is top, Lloris should be top, De Gea will become top, Cech is absolute top and Reina was top class. Howard and Mignolet are also among the very best. Vorm and Krul were fantastic last season, but it is too soon to judge them.

All in all i think only Cech, Friedel, Howard and De Gea are fantastic ( Lindegaard is good but De Gea is better, Ferguson is making a mistake when prefers Lindegaar to De Gea).

All the rest are ordinary (Jaaskelainen used to be a top class GK, but he is declining).

Hart is much overrated. Last year he played behind the best CB in the world, now that Kompany has a bad spell Hart is less impressive.

Hart has been great so far this season. Sick of people saying he's overrated (why? because he's English?). He's been the best GK in the PL for the last 2/3 seasons.

It's a complete joke to list those GKs above Hart. De Gea? give me a fucking break