slamsoze
International
- Joined
- 28 September 2010
No offense or salt here, but i cannot understand how you have opinion about Exhib VS ML ; since you stated you dont play ML. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Chuny
-
- Joined
- 11 December 2007
It is certainly not.
Just by saying this you are undermining yourself and the rest of your posts because it will be hard to take you seriously from now on. In fact, you can check it yourself if you have PES on PC.
The difficulty level is shown before the start of the game. Besides, if you are so familiar with the staples of the saga you should see it is barely beginner level.
As i said, i don´t play ML and never did on any PES game before. But that´s not the point, as i can compare the PES gameplay difficulty through the years in terms of offline league mode and tournaments. Here i see a clear "evolution" in challenge since PES2018 after the catastrophal issues of 2016 and 2017.
If it is really necessary to select a mode with fantasy players and abnormal transfer policy to get a halfway demanding gameplay, you can add this to the list of PES worst issues.
Madmac79
International
- Joined
- 11 September 2006
That's of course the point if you are giving us opinions on a mode you never ever played.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
I agree,my small player got closed down way to fast the last 2-3 meters.
I know what you mean,it's a cheaty way to keep the CPU defending tight.
Still I consider it being scripting since you can break free on other occasions and not be caught.
Catch up bug or general scripting mess,doesn't matter what its called,still a poor and lazy short cut by Konami
If you would concentrate on reading, you would see i am giving opinions on offline modes (tournament, league) throughout the last PES titles.
I don´t know how it could be made clearer that i don´t know anything about ML´s particular gameplay, as it is not a realistic experience for me.
- Staff
- #9,218
If there's another insult we're going to have to break out the banhammer folks. This is aimed at everyone. Keep it civil - the conversation has been really good in here in recent weeks, let's not do this.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
No...no....no...
It even feels different when playing an Exb Vs ML.
It's even a difference between ML and league mode.
Chuny
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- Joined
- 11 December 2007
Correct!
Exhibition Mode gives you that "What I great game I just played!"
While MOST ML games give you that "Meh" feeling. Like a "Should I play one more or throw this game away?" feeling.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Big difference between those modes.
You always start from scratch with no history when playing exhibition.
ML always has a Vs com stats clouding it.
That´s a thing we all know, and we all know that at certain "environments" different stats are boosted (or not).
But what´s the official game mode to judge and compare a PES game now? Or let´s ask in a different way: Would you expect Barcelona to get beaten by Flamenco with zero passes in a friendly match?
Chuny
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- Joined
- 11 December 2007
I don't think they realise how much of a better game PES would be offline, if Master League matches played exactly as exhibition mode ones do.
Madmac79
International
- Joined
- 11 September 2006
Well, to say that the difference between a friendly and a ML match is a "myth" seems like a very neat opinion that would presume a (very good) first hand experience, since it contradicts the experience of practically all people who played both here.
Sorry @Chris Davies .. just this last reply or I'll look like an illiterate
. I don't have particular will to keep arguing on this, anyway.
Sorry @Chris Davies .. just this last reply or I'll look like an illiterate
. I don't have particular will to keep arguing on this, anyway.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
You should really sack Jose Chris.
Ps I know what you mean,the long ball passing accuracy is not good in Pes
Especially since it's mainly high long balls.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
You can exploit what ever in a game if you want to,and obviously that shouldn't happen,but then again if I had time,is probably edit a league with both Flamengo and Barca in it,and I bet the outcome would be different.
Chuny
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- Joined
- 11 December 2007
Well, to say that the difference between a friendly and a ML match is a "myth" seems like a very neat opinion that would presume a (very good) first hand experience, since it contradicts the experience of practically all people who played both here.
Sorry @Chris Davies .. just this last reply or I'll look like an illiterate
You know what? I think ice-cream is horrible. Really, disgusting. It tastes like feet.
But I have never ever had an ice-cream in my entire life and probably never will. I just know it by reading about it and looking at pictures of people having one.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
It would be a truly great game.
To bad they're stubborn/stupid as a donkey and don't realise it
Well, to say that the difference between a friendly and a ML match is a "myth" seems like a very neat opinion that would presume a (very good) first hand experience, since it contradicts the experience of practically all people who played both here.
Sorry @Chris Davies .. just this last reply or I'll look like an illiterate
Of course it is a myth, alone because you never know when this diffence kicks in, how much it influences or boosts stats or what is really responsible for this. Team spirit? Fatigue?
But the question still remains: What could be a better way to check & compare the core mechanics as a basic exhibition game (or at least the game mode you are playing regularly)? PES2018 & PES2019 passed the test easily, you won´t get any presents in exhibition mode on maxed difficulty levels. PES2016 & PES2017 were shockingly easy, both in exhibition and tournaments. I can hardly be the solution, even if PES unfolds somewhere deep in master league to a level the other modes can´t reach. So what´s the intention in hanging on with that myth-discussion?
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Unfortunatly neither ice-cream nor master league is the topic i refer to, but the difference in basic, uninfluenced gameplay of the last PES titles.
Chuny
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- Joined
- 11 December 2007
I get your point. And I could even agree. But when you buy a game, you expect it to be an all-around product with a certain quality among all game modes. And when you play one game mode that makes you feel like it's a very good game -potentially the best of the current generation- and then go and play another game mode that's supposed to be 'deeper' (we could discuss how deep ML actually is some other time) but it actually ruins the first experience, then... that's where I cannot agree with you. Much less when you called it "a myth", mate.
It appears to me that we define the impact of "myth" in a different context here. I am absolutely aware that games feel differently in exhibition and other modes like tournaments due to arrows and individual conditions alone. But it is not predictable if this "extra-boost" by the CPU kicks in or not. If you say in ML it is always and ever an invisible difficulty level up, i will believe it. But this would lead all other game modes ad absurdum, at least if the core logic isn´t stable enough anyway.
Chuny
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- Joined
- 11 December 2007
It's not "an invisible difficulty level up".
It's the combination of Team Spirit + Rival you're playing against + Script.
Those 3 factors make ML gameplay more clunky, less spontaneous, more frustrating, less enjoyable.
Whereas as soon as you exit Master League mode, and recreate the exact same match you just played (same teams, same stadium, same conditions) in Exhibition mode, everything just... flows. Suddenly the AI stops predicting every move you try to make on 1on1s. The AI tries different things too. There's no scripting. The AI doesn't handicap you if you're 1 up and there's only 20 minutes left and then miraculously score an equaliser. ETC.
And this has been that way since PES 2015 or 16. But it has become more evident in recent versions.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
The more complex the game gets,the more "realistic" gameplay/motions we demand,the more they have to dial up the cheating from the CPU to fight that,rather than revamp the AI,making it smarter/more life-like
- Staff
- #9,236
Thats a great point.
There is a challenge, and there is frustration. Challenge is good. Frustration not so much.
2019 feels most cheaty, shallow and cheap, to cover up underdeveloped AI.
You say I can drop difficulty and raise pass assistance, @philla .
But,
No1: im already on Profesional, and the game is still breaking my balls with cheap moves, where I know exactly what theyr gonna do, but cant do shit to prevent it.
No2: I've never player anything above PassAssistance 1, and I dont understand why should I have to change it (decreasing my overall satisfaction from playing and making it automated) to counter shallow, cheaty AI?
Besides - were you not the one, who said in the past that there is no point playing pes19 on anything below Legend?
So, if you find Legend ballanced and enjoyable to play - thats fantastic. I envy you and wish I was the same. I wouldnt be sitting now, as we speak and installing OF for Pes17.
But for me 2019 in its current state is predictable, boring, shallow and frustrating torture and thats not what its all about, right?
Schwarzenbeck
Premier League
Agreed. In an ideal world they would do some research in AI and invest heavily in machine learning. There are amazing things that are already done with new technologies and sooner or later – that's my absolute conviction – this will affect gaming.
Then again, I am not so sure whether the limitations we are facing are due to Konami's (or EAs) limited expertise in programming or whether they are not purposely designed into the system in order to drive users elsewhere. In the latter case we will of course never see a decent offline mode ever again.
Exactly these 3 factors influence regular tournaments and seasons as well, so if there is no additional "magic" in ML this is exactly what i am saying. If even the exhibition match is beyond logic in terms of AI behaviour (like PES2017), the ML or tournaments won´t get any "better" - apart from occasional scripting.
Best option for me is a permanent difficulty level, like on legend in PES2018 and PES2019. It is always present in exhibition and tournaments (can´t say about ML, as i underline) and provides a realistic resistance by the CPU which is missing in PES2017 and PES2016. Unfortunatly, it gets really tricky when boosts and scripts kick in.
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Couldn't agree more.
Good points
Schwarzenbeck
Premier League
To follow up on that, perhaps true innovation in this field will not come from a gaming company but rather from the likes of Google. I read about rumors that they plan to enter the console market. If so, they will cetainly not only deliver the hardware but also content at some point. And since they are pretty advanced in AI technology, the idea that they could base gaming mechanisms on data harvesting, AI and machine learning isn't too far off.