Whose spent the best?

[Vlad19]

Wait, you just used the performance of players in England, Spain and Italy to justify how the french league is somehow anywhere near them. You're making my point, not one of those players is a proven commodity until he reaches those leagues. I'm not saying Toure doesn't have potential, I'm saying there's a very limited scope to what you can prove playing outside the top 3 leagues. See, you can rate Lyon's players highly because they play in the champions league often and encounter top teams. But someone who had one season at Monaco after dancing around europe's lower leagues to somehow be rated as a great signing, particularly for a team as loaded in midfield as Barca, is just silly talk.

P.S. - Unproven is not a byword for 'shit'. Unproven is someone like Cristiano Ronaldo before last season. Once you do well in the top leagues, you become 'proven'. Glad we cleared that up.

Again, the Torres transfer was £20.2M and Torres took a pay cut because he specifically wanted to play for Liverpool. I'm factoring that in as well - player's passion and desire. Since last season was so healthily affected by Eto'o and Ronaldinho hating each other, why not bring in another attacker who thinks he's the greatest? All I'm saying is on paper it's dynamite, in reality they're gonna get on each other's nerves since all of them have displayed selfishness. Last season Alex Ferguson sold RVN even though he was still great, because him and CRonaldo hated each other. Lo and behold, CRonaldo blossoms and ManU work like a team again. RVN is a super player, but a dysfunctional team of superstars doesn't seem to be a winning formula.

 

[steevio_uk]

I do very much like the additions of Scott Parker and Julien Faubert (who unfortunately is gonna be out for 6 months but then will go on to establish himself as one of EPL's leading right-backs! ) and one or two more of the purchases of West Ham football club.

Thanks for the kind words, but a quick note is that Faubert has almost surely been brought in to play as a right midfielder for us.
Considering the excellent form of our defence in the closing weeks of the season and in particular Lucas Neill at right back, it is highly doubtful that Curbishley will change it too much.
The only real debate is whether we get a new LB in to replace McCartney and whether it will be Ferdinand or Collins to partner Upson... I believe the latter.
The injury is indeed a real blow as I was very excited to see him play for us this year, but it seems we will have to wait until January at least. Even then, because of the style of Faubert, being a quick powerful player, an achilles injury may cause some permanent damage... let's hope not

(Whether Faubert goes on to become a RB for us in the future, who knows. Incidentally, what are your views on him as a player mate?)

On a seperate note, it gets tiring to hear about West Ham 'splashing cash and throwing money away'.
We have rid our team of the disgraceful Reo Coker, the inconsistent and under performing Benayoun, got a good price for Harewood and also got rid of much dead wood including players such as Newton, Sheringham and Carroll who have had bad personal personal problems.

We have Dean Ashton and Matthew Upson both back from long injuries, so that is like £15m of new signings.
As long as you do not believe the press rubbish that is written about wages we are supposedly offering, such as '£75k for Bellamy' '£72k for Neill' and '£80k for Bent', this summer we have spent roughly £23m (Bellamy £7.5m, Faubert £6.1m, Parker £7m, Ljungberg <£3m, Wright free) and recouped approximately £21m and massively improved our first team in the process. So that's a net spending of approximately £2m.
Compare that to some other clubs such as Spurs who have spent roughly net £25m, it is hardly 'throwing money away' :lol::roll:

(Eidur Gudjohnsen could very well be the next name in at West Ham... we are believed to have made an official approach for him yesterday)

 

[PLF]

Hi Vlad,

I'm not active much on the 'football' section of these forums, but before I reply to some sections of your post, allow me to say that, at times I have seen footy discussions here over the past 6 months or so and read a few posts from you as well as others and unless I'm mixing you up with someone else (I could be), I've at times found what you say to be sensible and my own personal opinions as well and things I agree with, just like with 'lo zio' and a number of other posters around. But unlike with 'lo zio', I never took the time to tell you this before.

Wait, you just used the performance of players in England, Spain and Italy to justify how the french league is somehow anywhere near them.

It is near them and it's not 'somehow' and Bundesliga is even closer to the top 3 and yes, I did. Is there a problem with that? What else can one do exactly when trying to argue the case I'm doing? :-s It's the only thing that makes sense.

How else can I exactly prove the quality of a league and its players to someone who maybe doesn't follow it regularly himself to know just how good it is?

If I said, they are great players in France, that wouldn't make sense because then some would be skeptical that they'd be great elsewhere, but what I did was name only a fraction out of the many successful ones who were in Ligue 1 and made the transition to one of the so-called 'top 3' leagues you mentioned and not only played well but became one of that league's very own best assets and stars. Not to mention, a number of fairly 'mediocre' and NON-top players of Ligue 1 who get exported to the other top leagues every year and actually make a name for themselves (bigger than they ever managed in France) like Chimbonda or Delporte like I previously mentioned.

You're making my point, not one of those players is a proven commodity until he reaches those leagues. I'm not saying Toure doesn't have potential, I'm saying there's a very limited scope to what you can prove playing outside the top 3 leagues.

No, I'm not making your point for you and I fully disagree with that.

The problem is stemming from the fact that you probably don't actually follow Bundesliga and Ligue 1 weekly yourself to know just how high quality it is and you're just judging it based on what the media in places like England and Spain is always feeding to its people which in a nutshell is very political, biased and sounds somewhat like the following: "Our league is the best. Others are fairly $hit. Make no mistake about it and repeat after me! :lol: "

For me, there is no 'Top 3' leagues and that's the beauty of football as compared to Baseball or another sport. Yes, I do recognize the fact that the top 3 includes (Spain, England and Italy) and I'd rank it like that myself if I were to rank the top 3 of Europe. BUT, you don't see me mentioning the 'top 3' much because the difference between them and "#4 - Bundesliga" and "#5 - Ligue 1" isn't much.

When you go look at the mid-table and relegation candidates of Italy and England and compare them to the same ones in France, the gap is much less than the avg person in England and Italy thinks so and almost non-existant in some cases. I could argue for example that one of the relegated Bundesliga and Ligue 1 clubs would've actually survived this year perhaps in Serie A.

Until you start following the league, I really don't think, you have any idea from yourself (instead of being led to thinking who is good and who is bad from media or the general consensus) about what sorta quality teams like Rennes and Sochaux or Hertha Berlin and Hannover hold. But, I actually know the players in these 4 teams individually. As a result, I can compare them with the same ones that I also see playing weekly in Fulham or Mallorca let's say. Even some of their bench members. I'm not saying they're great, not at all. They're far from 'great' but I bet ya, no real further than their same counterpart in England or Spain or Italy is and overall they're better than most people outside Germany and France think they are.

So I get your point about the "You're not proven until you've consistently performed well in one of Europe's top leagues" comments dude and I agree with it. The only difference is, me and many of the guys who actually follows Bundesliga and Ligue 1, don't consider them "Lower" leagues and knows the difference between them and the top 3 isn't that much. So I consider a 'top' 5 because there is sufficient quality in 'every' one of its teams even the lower ones and that's why I pretty much only follow the top 5 European leagues and not much else. Because those are the 5 I deem, quality enough from head to toe to spend time getting to know and obsessing over.

Therefore, for me, if somebody is playing consistently and great at the Bundesliga or Ligue 1 level, he IS proven.
But anything outside the 'top 5', I don't easily get impressed with or deem fully 'proven' until they manage to also do the Biz in one of the top 5.

Because despite, Portugal, Holland, Greece, Turkey and a number of other nations having 'decent' leagues, the level of 'weak' clubs some of the top clubs face during the league really IS NOT as good as the ones in Bundesliga, Ligue 1 or the top 3.

So in that case, if a player is impressing in one of the above-mentioned leagues, I don't consider them fully 'proven'. Because many of the teams they faced (unlike in Germany and France) were to be honest quite weak and crap and the gap between their top clubs and mid-table ones and weaker ones, is much bigger than the gap between the counterparts of the same clubs and comparison in France and Germany and the top 3 as well.

In anycase, if what you said was true, then I guess Miroslav Klose, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Torsten Frings, Diego (who was unproven until last season which he was great), Ribery, Coupet, Juninho and many others are 'unproven'.

But they're not! They are some of the world's very best in their positions. Now I know what you can say, you can say but Klose is world-class and proven because he was great in world-cups.

But what if he hadn't? What if he had done nothing special or even played fairly bad like many players who we DO know are class and proven did in world-cups in those few games?

Would than then make him 'unproven' simply because he had played all his life in Bundesliga?

The answer is a big fat "No" of course because Bundesliga's level of football is very high and very much comparable to the top 3. Therefore its top performs just like in France ARE 'proven' and absolutely quality regardless of whether they impressed in the few CL matches they played (or didn't play) or on the international stage like in world-cups.

All in all then, I get what you're saying. The only difference is, me and Chris (Gomito), gibb and many of the other guys who actually follow Bundesliga and Ligue 1, consider 'top 5' not 'top 3' leagues and therefore see players who are OUTSIDE those 5 leagues but doing well 'unproven' until they do it in one of those leagues, where as you consider a 'top 3' and therefore anyone outside it, not proven until performed in that stage.

That's fine. I don't mean to change your opinions and in any case, it's impossible to do so anyhow until you actually start following the leagues yourself. Just ask Chris (Gomito) or the Scottish 'gib', 'roti' or a number of other "Non-French" Ligue 1 and Bundesliga followers. And they will all tell you one thing. Before they actually started following the leagues themselves, they had the same opinion about it which most other people in their country did. An under-rated view of them due to not enough 'hype' and the way English media constantly looks down and talks down on them. (It's not just England's problem by the way. I've seen Spain do the same.)

If the gap between Bundesliga and Ligue 1 was so big to the top 3, then not even half as many Ligue 1 players would be exported to those leagues every year. But they go there, because the majority of them get the job done and are quality enough.

You don't see as many SPL, Superliga or Turkish league players joining EPL every year than you do with French players. Wonder why? They're surely not cheaper.

Furthermore, if the gap was big, you wouldn't have mediocre Ligue 1 players going to EPL and gaining first team places (which they sometimes didn't have in France) and establishing themselves.

But the truth is, the gap is not big. That's why a 'top 5' league is often more appropriate to speak of than a 'top 3'. Because the difference between the 5th best European league and the 6th one, just may be as big as the difference between #5 and #1.

See, you can rate Lyon's players highly because they play in the champions league often and encounter top teams. But someone who had one season at Monaco after dancing around europe's lower leagues to somehow be rated as a great signing, particularly for a team as loaded in midfield as Barca, is just silly talk.

If a player has enough quality and is ambitious enough, he'll make his way to the top. The fact that Yaya spent a year in Ukraine and also a year in the Greek league before moving to Monaco which plays in one of the best leagues in Europe and has 'European' recognition and pedigree itself, shouldn't hold him back or serve as a punishment or be almost looked down upon, compared to someone who's only played in EPL or La Liga let's say. If anything, it's shown that he's fairly adaptable and has the ability to shine in a number of different countries with different footballing styles and languages.

Second of all, 'loaded' in midfield is irrelevant and a general non-specific statement with little meaning since we have to look at the position he's likely to occupy at Barca and that's gonna be the DMF position most likely as Barca have better options for the creative more offensive CM, AMF positions in likes of Deco, Iniesta and Xavi.

They're not loaded in the DMF position because:

1) Thiago Motta is an extremely injury prone player and after having stuck with him for a few years and given votes of confidence to, he now sets likely to finally leave and doesn't have quite enough quality for a regular starting place in Barca anyway even if he wasn't injured so often.

2) Edmilson is gonna be out for a few months and when he does come back, there is no reason to believe and Barca certainly can't afford to assume, he's gonna be back to his best immediately to help them with their 'Going for Title' season, not to mention, as good as he is, he's not exactly 'world-class' either.

That leaves Rafa Marquez who can play in that position but he's a highly skilled CB naturally and Barca may look to keep him there to compete with Milito for a place next to Puyol.

So they're not actually packed and like I said, whether you want to call it 'proven' or not (which I agree, after only ONE successful season in one of Europe's top leagues, it's not enough to be fully convinced), he's already better than Thiago and Edmilson in my opinion and we'll see about that I guess.

P.S. - Unproven is not a byword for 'shit'. Unproven is someone like Cristiano Ronaldo before last season. Once you do well in the top leagues, you become 'proven'. Glad we cleared that up.

English isn't my first language but I know what 'unproven' means. IF it was like a 'synonym' for $hit/crap or even anything remotely close to it, I'd never have the audacity to call someone with the sorta ability Fernando Torres has, 'unproven'.

As for the bolded part, yes, that's correct. Except, for me, that's the top '5' leagues and not the top '3'! Therefore, just like C. Ronaldo, Diego last year proved to finally have turned into the sorta quality player we always knew he could become but previously at Porto and Santos had only shown glimpses of.

Again, the Torres transfer was £20.2M

How can you make me convinced of this though? Any real proof?
Should I just take your word for it and assume you were there in the leather seat when the negotations between the 2 clubs were taking place and at the final stages?

Like I said, bro, I haven't seen anything official to make me believe it IS 20.2M or 23M or 28M! I've heard all 3 reported by a large number of websites and people and none of course, we can be sure of.

Torres took a pay cut because he specifically wanted to play for Liverpool. I'm factoring that in as well - player's passion and desire.

I would've taken a pay cut in order to play for Liverpool and its Spanish manager and players than someone else in England as well.

Fitting in is a big factor and he has more chance of doing that in Liverpool, so he made that decision. It doesn't tell me anything more than he has 'brain' however. Reyes also had big ambitions, willingness to work hard and succeed and many big words to say upon joining for a lot of money.

Any player who has half an ounce of brain will say 'positive' stuff such as: "I will make this a success."
"I will give my best."
"I had big desire to join this club because.... "
"I had option of other clubs but I came here... "
"I took a pay-cut",

etc. etc.

It's nothing new and Fernando certainly isn't stupid. (By the way Gomito, Fernando Torres IS very different from Fernando Morientes. Really shouldn't compare the two in my opinion and yes, I agree with Vlad when he says the only things they have in common pretty much is that they're both forwards, Spanish and named "Fernando" )

So he'll say the same stuff and has said it.

Djibril Cisse said the very same things upon joining Liverpool a few years ago and of course he was also a RECORD transfer signing and got a lot of fans all 'wet' and excited lol (but not me) and we know how that one ended. (Keep in mind, I'm not saying, Torres = Cisse)

So what he's said to the media or stuff doesn't mean much to me. It only makes sense if he's said and done all that. All players say complimentary/flattery stuff to the club and its fans when they join. It'd be weird if he didn't. You'd have to be a retard not to say stuff like that when joining a club. Everyone does even if they join a crappy club with crap facilities and crap history, nowhere near the level of Liverpool FC.

 

[PLF]

Ooops, forgot about this last part:

Since last season was so healthily affected by Eto'o and Ronaldinho hating each other, why not bring in another attacker who thinks he's the greatest? All I'm saying is on paper it's dynamite, in reality they're gonna get on each other's nerves since all of them have displayed selfishness. Last season Alex Ferguson sold RVN even though he was still great, because him and CRonaldo hated each other. Lo and behold, CRonaldo blossoms and ManU work like a team again. RVN is a super player, but a dysfunctional team of superstars doesn't seem to be a winning formula.

Not sure why you're bringing this up as this is certainly something we don't disagree on with each other, AT ALL!

I totally agree. This is why, out of its many signings, the Henry one is my least favorite. It's because of this transfer, that "Bayern" wins the #1 place in original question of this thread and Barca only grabs 2nd place as I previously mentioned on my last post here. It's not exactly a 'needed' one and more like 'Galactico' stuff from Barca and I'm not too happy about it. Even if you consider the fact that there will be injuries, Giuly isn't there anymore and Eto'o will have to go to African Nations cup.

I personally think, Henry will be a 'decent' buy but nothing special and this transfer will ultimately only lead to Ronaldinho or Eto'o moving to AC Milan or another club at the end of the season. Something which I'm quite confident, most Barca fans wouldn't have wanted and rather not taken if they knew that's what the Thierry Henry transfers (who'll be 30 soon) will eventually lead to.

-------------------------------------------------------

@Hammer-Stevo, long time no talk buddy.

Very nice post. I have a lot to say about Faubert, West Ham and their summer activities.

I'll get back to your post later, bro. :salute:

Take care for now.

 

[Vlad19]

My Persian friend, I respect you immensely as well and see your point (even if it takes half a day to read about it ). I think we're really wrangling about subjective things, and you've summarised all the issues well. I'll take pride in making you write up such an exhaustive review of Barca's transfer activity!

 

[voxel]

really great posts going on back and forth on this thread.

just to drop my 2 cents. i think every player is 'unproven' on a team until he consistently successes or fails in that certain environment (team, league, etc).

if it were otherwise this wouldn't be football and the team with the most money would always win. that's the beauty of the game.

you could make cases and examples for hundreds of other leagues beeing top too. the fact that a certain player might be a great, awful or just decent fit to a certain team in a certain country doesn't prove anything.

i could think about a hundred cases of "local scrubs that emigrate and hit the jackpot" about our national league in argentina and that doesn't make our league top anything (camoranesi beeing the most blatant example, almirón and pernía are other examples that were deemed 'not good enough' for the best clubs of our league).

i think it's next to impossible to guess how much success a player will have on a certain team, since a lot of factors come into the equation: the player adapting to the staff / country, the team playing to the players strenghts, hiding the players weaknesses, etc...

 

[lo zio]

PLF, i won't quote your post as it's quite long, but i TOTALLY AGREE WITH U, great post, really
the problem is that many people in europe rate our leagues just by looking at the top clubs... this way it's quite natural to say that there's a difference between italy\england\spain and bundesliga\ligue 1.

but of course to correctly rate a league, u have to consider all the clubs, not just 4 of them. and, most important, u don't have just to look at the "star players"... u have to look at the quality of the football.
and if u do consider theese parameters, ligue 1 and bundesliga are on the same level of serie a, liga and premiership....
actually, if i have to be completely sincere, this season, ligue 1 and bundesliga football (talking about quality) were even better than serie a and premiership's football, imo

Vlad, i've got to say i had the same feeling PLF had; it's really a pleasure to read your posts

sorry for off topic :mrgreen:

 

[gomito#10]

PLF, why the fuck are you studying finance you SHOULD become a writer. Seriously mate your writing skills are top notch. Cheers.

 

[gomito#10]

PLF, i won't quote your post as it's quite long, but i TOTALLY AGREE WITH U, great post, really
the problem is that many people in europe rate our leagues just by looking at the top clubs... this way it's quite natural to say that there's a difference between italy\england\spain and bundesliga\ligue 1.

but of course to correctly rate a league, u have to consider all the clubs, not just 4 of them. and, most important, u don't have just to look at the "star players"... u have to look at the quality of the football.
and if u do consider theese parameters, ligue 1 and bundesliga are on the same level of serie a, liga and premiership....
actually, if i have to be completely sincere, this season, ligue 1 and bundesliga football (talking about quality) were even better than serie a and premiership's football, imo

Vlad, i've got to say i had the same feeling PLF had; it's really a pleasure to read your posts

sorry for off topic :mrgreen:

yeah i had been a huge fan of the epl for years, until i started actually watching league 1, and i love it, it is far and beyond my favorite league to watch. I think this year im going to concentrate on the bundesliga.

 

[PLF]

My Persian friend, I respect you immensely as well and see your point (even if it takes half a day to read about it ). I think we're really wrangling about subjective things, and you've summarised all the issues well. I'll take pride in making you write up such an exhaustive review of Barca's transfer activity!

The pleasure in our recent direct interaction has been solely mine dude.
You've now only confirmed and further enhanced the positive view I previously held on you.

As for the bolded part, I agree. It's a problem I have. I seem to not be able to find a 'middle ground' and am always at extremes when discussing football it seems. What I mean by that is, either I don't bother discussing certain things with some people at all and just ignore a lot of stuff I see said here and there that I don't agree with or when I do decide to get involved, my posts almost always turn out to be huge which I'm not proud of. :|
This is something I have to work on but I seem to never be able to be pleased with myself unless I've discussed every little possible argument and detail that could've and should've been brought up.

PLF, i won't quote your post as it's quite long, but i TOTALLY AGREE WITH U, great post, really
the problem is that many people in europe rate our leagues just by looking at the top clubs... this way it's quite natural to say that there's a difference between italy\england\spain and bundesliga\ligue 1.

but of course to correctly rate a league, u have to consider all the clubs, not just 4 of them.

Exactly.

I think this is the CLASSIC problem of most people which leads to them having wrong thoughts about certain leagues and not rating them correctly.

After all, the top 4 OR the bottom 4 nor the middle 4 clubs in a league can SOLELY determine how quality a league is. ALL have to be considered. Otherwise you can have a couple great teams in a league and every other club being $hit and hence a very boring, uninteresting, predictable and uncompetitive league but one that wouldn't get the bad reviews it deserved because people are judging it only on its couple good teams rather than everything.

And after all, it makes NO SENSE to judge a league simply by its few top teams because the matches involving those teams are only a small fraction of the total number of fixtures that will be played in any given league.

The best and most accurate way of judging a league's quality and finding out how big or small the gap in quality between two leagues really is, to take different clubs at different positions of table and compare them with their counterpart in the other league you want to compare.

So let's say we want to compare the #8's or thereabouts between 3 leagues. We'll take Everton from EPL, Dortmund from Germany and Lille from France. You'll notice if you really know their squads well and I do that the level is very close and similar. None of these clubs is that much better than the other and it's actually arguable who is the strongest and the weakest in this group.

You can then do the same for the teams that were relegated. Compare the quality of the players Nantes had at their disposal (who finished last), Borussia M'Gladbach (who finished last in Bundi) and Watford. Here, the difference is not only non-existant but if anything, in favour of Bundi and Ligue 1 in this particular case as I think Nantes had an even slightly better squad than Charlton or Sheff Utd let alone Watford)

You can and should then do this for every other position in the table (Mid-table clubs, Euro ones, other relegated, etc.) and IF the compared leagues' quality really did have a big gap in them and not be so close, you'd easily see the relegated club of EPL or La Liga be noticably and clearly better than relegated club of France or Germany and the same with their mid-table ones, etc.

But you don't see that and for good reason. They're almost on par with each other in every position apart from the top 3-4 clubs perhaps.

Now go and compare Charlton's squad to the team that finished 2nd last in Scotland, Holland, Portugal, Greece, Turkey and Belgium and you WILL see a clear difference in quality. Those teams won't have had guys with the ability level of Darren Bent in their squad or a number of other decent players Charlton had. It's the same thing if you compare EPL's #10 (Absolute mid-table) with their mid-table again. Again, you can do this for every position and you will then see that, it IS true that EPL and La Liga are clearly of a higher quality than the aforementioned leagues. Because their teams in every single position are better than the ones in the same positions in the other leagues. Hence the gap isn't so small or non-existant like it was when you compare La Liga and EPL to Bundesliga or Ligue 1.

This further proves what I've said before and I'll keep saying. The gap in quality and competitiveness of the league between the #5 which is France and #6 is probably as large if not larger than the difference between #5 and #1!

Hence, it makes little sense to continuously talk about "Top 3" as if they're by a large degree far better than anything else when really, it's more like the "Big 5 European Leagues" as they're much more congested and closer to each other in terms of ability and quality and then a bunch of other decent but non-top leagues that follow them but by some distance.

It's like in England and with their clubs. You don't see people saying "Top 2 clubs" much. They almost always refer to the "Big 4" instead even though last year proved once again that there IS a difference between Arsenal and Liverpool compared to Chelsea and Man Utd.

The same should be the case for the leagues. We shouldn't make such a big deal out of the top 3 and put down Bundesliga or Ligue 1 because it is only slightly inferior. We should rather be referring to them most often as the "Big 5 leagues of Europe" because while there are differences and gaps in quality, they're not big.

PLF, why the fuck are you studying finance you SHOULD become a writer. Seriously mate your writing skills are top notch. Cheers.

Yeah, right! :rolleyes:

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that, bro.

My level of English and writing is nothing special or good enough to be admired or complimented in my opinion for someone who has been living in an English-speaking country for as many years as I have. Maybe if I spoke English like I do and I lived somewhere else like in Italy (lo zio) then I could be congratulated. But I don't, so I don't think I deserve any special praise in this regard.
Plus, if my English and writing really was good, I wouldn't struggle so much with essays in school like I do. :p

By the way, there have been talks and I might be getting a job with GOLTV sometime in the near future. :8):
Now, If you'd said I should be working in direct relation to football whether it's as an analyzer, commentator or whatever else rather than a writer, then I would agree with you and I will do that once my studies are over.

yeah i had been a huge fan of the epl for years, until i started actually watching league 1, and i love it, it is far and beyond my favorite league to watch. I think this year im going to concentrate on the bundesliga.

Definitely go for it dude.

You'll be happy you did and have absolutely no regrets.
It's an awesome league with lot of quality throughout it, it's physical, fast, has the highest average attendance turnout compared to any other European league and that's because they have die-hard hardcore fans who fill up those big beautiful stadiums of theirs every weekend! Great atmosphere, great players and just simply a great league therefore.

Any real footy fan who doesn't follow Bundi is missing out and since you're a close personal friend of mine and I know you're a real football lover, I just HAVE TO highly recommend it to you.

By the way, you should refer to French league as "Ligue 1" rather than "League 1". Because 'League 1' is also England's 3rd division from what I understand and it may confuse some people. But as long as you say "Ligue 1" , most people recognize what you're talking about even if you exclude the key word 'French'.

-------------------------------------------------------

@Stevo, you and your beloved Hammers are next bro.
Sorry for the delay.

 

[Re-arranged]

great post there, Sina, that's how i rate European leagues:
1-. Spain - league where no mattaer whether you are Real, Barca, Sevilla or Valencia no game can be a walk in the park for you (exception Shitnastic which was really shite).
2-. England - top 4 and the others. Tottenham is near to those, but still has to prove to be consistent unlike last season.
3-. Italy - The least interesting off the top 5, i mean not the quality of play which is very high in there, but in terms of overall level of competition. Champions and ECL qualifiers are known long before the end of the season, this year was the same for UEFA Cup spots.
4-. Germany - the second most unpredictable top league this season.
5-. France - Lyon and the others, high level of competition for any other place than the first.
6-. Portugal - once again top 3 and the others, despite that very interesting league to watch.
7-. Netherlands - I usually watch only the top 4-5 teams as the others are weaker by far.
8-. Turkey, Russia - Russian league is very much like Spanish, where any lower teams are a serious threat for top ones.
9-. Ukraine.
10-. Scotland/Greece/Romania.
etc... etc....

About the top spends: no.1 is surely Bayern, after so many seasons without too much changing club bosses finally decided to spend some big money on some huge players like Ribery, Toni and Klose.

 

[gib2504]

Some fantastic posts there from Vlad and PLF.

Totally have to agree with everything Sina had to say, anyone who leaves Bundi and Ligue 1 our of any top league conversation needs to do some research into 2 amazing leagues.

The EPL and La Liga are quality leagues, but the amount of players that come from Bundi and Ligue 1 show the quality of these leagues.

As Sina said, I'm Scottish, so for years the SPL and EPL were the leagues I mostly watched, and then La Liga, but now, after 2 years here I love watching Ligue 1 and Bundi, Sportschau is a regular watch for me, all the great Bundi highlights, and always watch a Ligue 1 game everyweek plus the highlights show.

One stat that shows the quality of Ligue 1 is the Table only 10 points seperated Toulouse in 3rd to PSG in 15th which is amazing if you ask me, 3 wins either way and your either fighting relagation or winning a european place, thats why Lyon manage to run away with the league, all the other teams are so close together that they all take points off each other and Lyon pull away from them all.

It's not that the other teams are so much worse, It's the level of consistency and squad quality, on their day teams like Lille, Rennes, Bordeaux, Monaco and Troyes all managed to beat Lyon, but then these teams could win 2 more games in a row but then lose 2 or 3.

Pretty much the same in Bundi except there are more clubs on the same level, Stuttgart, Schalke, Werder and Bayern were all at some point challenging for the title, and after then 10 points covered 5th to 13th and in a league with only 18 teams thats alot of teams at the same level including teams like Leverkusen, Dortmund and Hamburg who all recently challenged for the title, Proves how strong a league Bundi is.

To expand on Sinas point in leagues outwith the Top 5, you can spot these Leagues like SPL, Superliga etc because the teams that are constantly the Champions, although can do well in the CL reaching the last 16 always a top moment for them, and anything else is a bonus, Celtic, Rangers, Fenerbache, Porto, Benfica, Sporting, being a Celtic fan myself, Champions League knock out football is the main target for my club, and i'd be delighted to reach it again.

Where as teams like Liverpool, Arsenal, Valencia, Sevilla, Bremen, Roma, Schalke, Marseille although these teams may be a few players short of challenging for their own domestic championships, each of these teams would be expecting to get to the Quarter Finals of the CL, and thats the difference in quality with the Top 5 and the leagues outside it.

A league that hasn't been mentioned so far is the Eredivisie, although not enough overall quality, there are alot of Talented teams, AZ Alkmaar have done excellent breaking the mould of the big 3, and teams like Twente, Gronginen, Heerenveen have quality players just not at a higher level yet, so I would class it just outside the Top 5, but above the other leagues.

--------------------------------
To answer the question of the thread:

I think Man U have made some excellent signings but maybe spent over the odds for them, the squad wasn't as strong as it could be last year, but now with Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves and maybe soon to be Tevez, the squad will have some excellent strength and depth.

Chelsea have done excellent, 3 great Bosman signings and the excellent buy of Malouda, a strong squad getting stronger.

I like what Portsmouth have done, added the fire power they lacked last year and a great buy in Muntari.

Upset to say this but RC Lens have bought well, solid keeper in Le Crom and good talent in Kanga Akale and Julian Sable and a great coach in Guy Roux.

Gotta mention Lyon, not only buying quality Ligue 1 players as usual in Keita, Bodmer and Belhadj but also attracting a World Cup winner away for a so called bigger league, good replacement for Abidal in Fabio Grosso.

Marseille let Ribery go, but bulk up in quality with Benoit Cheyrou, Jacques Faty, Gael Givet, Laurent Bonnart and Karim Ziani, will be good to see how they do.

Last Ligue 1 team to mention in St-Etienne, looking forward to seeing Matuidi, Payet, Tavlaridis, and Varrault for Les Verts.

Zaragoza are my team to watch in Spain, addding Ayala, Ricardo Oliveira, and hopefully Matuzalem hopefully will make them give Valencia and Sevilla a run for 3rd place or even higher.

Sorry for going on guys, Sina inspiried me lol

 

[PLF]

Awesome post as usual, gib.

@Re's post,
Yep that's how I rank the top 5 as well. So any player that is impressing outside those is somewhat 'unproven' to me until he also does the business on a consistent basis in one of the top 5. Simply because in the other leagues, some of the teams you come up against can be VERY weak, so it's easier for even 'decent' players to look 'great' against them.

But I'm hopeful EPL can perhaps take the top spot after this season or next year since now many of its NON-TOP clubs (they are what's most important and will help improve the league's quality and competitiveness and ultimately fan satisfaction and reputation as a result, not so much, Man Utd and chelsea getting even stronger) seem to be improving their squads due to new found money and richer more ambitious chairmen and board of directors. This is GREAT news!

Because, the better and stronger, squads of clubs like West Ham, Man City, Everton, Portsmouth, Newcastle, Tottenham and Aston Villa get, the better EPL will be.
And thankfully, most of them do seem to be doing that now, so the future looks bright and not boring where the top 4 could be so easily predicted year after year as they were much stronger than any one else. Thankfully that seems to be changing now as a number of mid-table clubs will look to push towards the top and that's only gonna make the league more exciting as it did with La Liga where you had the likes of Zaragoza, Sevilla, Villarreal and Atletico have some outstanding top notch players that their English counter-parts didn't have in their squads.

You didn't see the English version of Zaragoza for example, have top notch quality players like "The Milito Brothers, Pablo Aimar, D'alessandro, Albert Zapater or Ewerthon (who didn't even get enough playing time and moved on loan to Stuttgart this summer) as well as some other good but lower rep players which I'm not gonna bother mentioning because some may not be familiar with".

Nor did the English version of "Villarreal" (whatever club that is) be able to have players like the genius Juan Roman Riquelme, Sorin, Marcos Senna, Forlan, Nihat and Cani playing there in their peak. Then there is Atletico and the likes of Espanyol and Osasuna whom despite not having many 'big rep' players showed just how good they are by going to the last 4 of Uefa Cup where the ultimately lose to another Spanish side (The Mighty Sevilla).

But NOW, hopefully the possibility is there and they will and hence EPL can rise to the level of La Liga and who knows, maybe even get better! As a life-long hardcore EPL fan therefore, I'm sure you can all understand, how excited I am! \\:o/ \\:o/

I'm anticipating a more exciting and competitive EPL next year and hopefully an even better one the year after that and if they continue on this path, I could see them edging La Liga in near future for that #1 spot. :8):

----------------------------------------------------------------

After the big 5, it's really hard for me to rank them with as much confidence to be honest, Re. Therefore, I'll take your word and ranking for it because I do know you have very good level of knowledge even outside the top 5 leagues which is something I can't say I do.

I do like Russian league as my 6th fav though. Because like you said, there is some solid quality competition even for lower places. Their weaker teams from what I've seen at least, have better players than the weak team of SPL, Eredivisie or Portuguese Superliga. Even if the distance isn't so much and it's fairly close. So maybe I'll put Russian league (which has been growing and could continue to grow as it attracts a higher quality of players every year than it did the previous year) as #6 behind France, personally, but of course as I'm sure you agree, the distance between them or whoever else is at #6 is quite a long way from Ligue 1.

 

[Re-arranged]

lol, i must be underrating Russian Premiership than. Actually there are many good mid-table teams: Amkar despite being on 12-th place is showing very fast and interesting football, FC Tom' is known here for it's fantastic team play and defence that's hard to break down they are 11-th, Rubin is 9-th but almost defeated Rapid Vienna who were 4-th in Austria if not two stupid sent offs and genius Stefan Hoffman who I'd really buy if I were any near-top European club. I can name more of the teams, but you aren't probably interested in hearing about them.

What i wanna mention is how foreigners underrate Russian league. For example Peter Odemwingie said in the interview:" The level of Russian Premier League is even higher than I thought. I have been always saying that it's underrated in Europe, but after seeing it with my bare eyes and playing in it I am now certain I was right." Anatoliy Tymoshchuk said that he wasn't expecting RPL to be so much higher level than Ukrainian League.

Some good foreign players play here Vagner Love, Dudu, Krasic, Dani Carvalho, Jo, Rado Kovac, Jiranek, Pletikosa, Kalinichenko, Mozart, Stranzl, Pelizzoli, Asatiani, Ivanovic, Odemwingie, Rodolfo(who is very underrated Brazilian defender), Hagen, Skrtel, Lee Ho, Tymoshchuk, Dominguez, Fatih Tekke etc.... This isn't even half a list and most of those players are members of their respective national teams or u-21's -20's -19's -18's -17's.

 

[djdoc]

Barca's 16million (I think im right?) for Henry seemed like a bargain and is the best buy of the so-called Summer so far.

I think United have done some good deals with Hargreaves, Nani and Anderson it will be interesting to see how they fit in. If we get Tevez too I think we have had a very good Summer transfer wise.

Liverpool have been pretty good in the Tranfers too, Torres will be a good signing will be interesting to see how he gets on in the Prem in Spain there is a dive every 5 seconds and the refs give a free kick!. As PLF says though Torres has a lot to prove.

West Ham have done some good deals too, I think the arrival of Bellamy and Ljungberg should mean they wont be fighting for survival this season.

 

[Re-arranged]

Liverpool have been pretty good in the Transfers too, Torres will be a good signing will be interesting to see how he gets on in the Prem in Spain there is a dive every 5 seconds and the refs give a free kick!

:shock: :lol: you are ridiculously biased, my friend, typical English people bias! I really doubt that u've watched any La Liga game ever. You English are so funny when talking about other leagues than your's...

 

[gomito#10]

:shock: :lol: you are ridiculously biased, my friend, typical English people bias! I really doubt that u've watched any La Liga game ever. You English are so funny when talking about other leagues than your's...

spot on

 

[steevio_uk]

Hey, hey, let's not generalise here :lol:

 

[hayabusa85]

One player who i'll be looking forward to seeing at the Kop (besides Torres and Babel) is Andriy Voronin, who has already made a big impression during Liverpool's pre Season friendlies. In many respects Liverpool already have a similar and argueably better player in Dirk Kuyt but i've been a fan of Voronin's since his Koln days so i'm looking forward to seeing him play in the EPL this season.

 

[PLF]

Been watching Voronin in Leverkusen and Bundesliga for a long time as well and I have to very much disagree with you on that 'hayabusa'.

"Form is temporary, class is permanent." And Kuyt >>>>> Voronin.

Plus I know a bunch of players who in the past seasons have impressed in pre-season matches and friendlies but not when the real competition against teams other than South China or an unfit and unmotivated Werder and Auxerre began.

He's a decent player but nothing special. But considering, Liverpool got him for 'free', I like the transfer. Especially since he's equally as good of a finisher as Torres but one was free and one for as much as 28M :lol: according to some websites. (According to some other websites and people like vlad of course, it could be less of course and perhaps they are correct)

lol, i must be underrating Russian Premiership than. Actually there are many good mid-table teams: Amkar despite being on 12-th place is showing very fast and interesting football, FC Tom' is known here for it's fantastic team play and defence that's hard to break down they are 11-th, Rubin is 9-th but almost defeated Rapid Vienna who were 4-th in Austria if not two stupid sent offs and genius Stefan Hoffman who I'd really buy if I were any near-top European club. I can name more of the teams, but you aren't probably interested in hearing about them.

The bolded part is basically why I said, I prefer Russian league slightly to any of the other outside the big 5. It's just more competitive it seems because it's not only about 2 or 3 good teams.

What i wanna mention is how foreigners underrate Russian league. For example Peter Odemwingie said in the interview:" The level of Russian Premier League is even higher than I thought. I have been always saying that it's underrated in Europe, but after seeing it with my bare eyes and playing in it I am now certain I was right." Anatoliy Tymoshchuk said that he wasn't expecting RPL to be so much higher level than Ukrainian League.

I think that's because in Ukraine, there is Dinamo Kiev and Shakhtar who are at very high level and then one or two more 'okay' teams before everyone else being fairly weak.

But in Russia, you have more 'good/decent' teams so the league is more competitive and the quality of it is higher. This is what he's finding out now that he's actually playing there...

Some good foreign players play here Vagner Love, Dudu, Krasic, Dani Carvalho, Jo, Rado Kovac, Jiranek, Pletikosa, Kalinichenko, Mozart, Stranzl, Pelizzoli, Asatiani, Ivanovic, Odemwingie, Rodolfo(who is very underrated Brazilian defender), Hagen, Skrtel, Lee Ho, Tymoshchuk, Dominguez, Fatih Tekke etc.... This isn't even half a list and most of those players are members of their respective national teams or u-21's -20's -19's -18's -17's.

I know them all except Asatiani.

Is that Rodolfo the same guy who used to play for Dinamo Kiev? If so, yeah he's pretty decent, I agree and still fairly young.

Barca's 16million (I think im right?) for Henry seemed like a bargain and is the best buy of the so-called Summer so far.

I think 16M is about correct or at least that's what's been reported but I can't agree with that at all.

In my opinion, he's not even the best Barca signing of the summer. Only the 'highest reputation' one. Let alone be the best buy of all summer!

He'll turn 30 very soon as well and for a guy his age, 16M isn't really a bargain. No matter how much undoubted quality he has. Especially when the transfer isn't so needed unlike the other ones such as Abidal, Yaya Toure and Gabi Milito who really do improve on a member that got playing time but was not good enough for Barca's expecations anymore. (Gio Van Bronkhorst, Thiago Motta and Thuram respectively let's say)

I think he'll be a decent buy however because Giuly and Saviola have left and there will be injuries and suspensions, not to mention Eto'o going to African nations cup. But like I said, for me, it's not even Barca's best buy of summer.

I think United have done some good deals with Hargreaves, Nani and Anderson it will be interesting to see how they fit in. If we get Tevez too I think we have had a very good Summer transfer wise.

Liverpool have been pretty good in the Tranfers too, Torres will be a good signing will be interesting to see how he gets on in the Prem in Spain there is a dive every 5 seconds and the refs give a free kick!. As PLF says though Torres has a lot to prove.

West Ham have done some good deals too, I think the arrival of Bellamy and Ljungberg should mean they wont be fighting for survival this season.

United and Liverpool have definitely been splashing the cash, that's for sure.

Whether they've been great buys or not, we'll see at the end of this season and who is holding the title.

The fans I see, usually get very excited and happy when cash is being spent. Even if it could've been spent more wisely or on players that had the same amount of quality but could've been brought in for cheaper.

All in all, I do think L'pool and Man Utd have had a good summer and strengthened their squad. But probably not as much as many of their excited fans (from both clubs) seem to think they have.
Liverpool's forward problems of last season (lack of a clinical finisher) isn't over for example but most fans now THINK it is due to having brought in 3 NEW strikers and for a lot of $$$ as well.

I'll elaborate more on what I mean and why I'm disappointed with Liverpool's striker signings despite Torres and Babel's huge potential, later if time permits.

In talking about EPL, I'm liking Chelsea and West Ham transfers the most so far (especially when you consider, the players Hammers bought last January and haven't yet shown their talent) although Chelsea REALLY needs a good right-back and Portsmouth who have got some good players in this summer as well.

In any case, the transfer window still has more than a month on it, so any team that's having a good transfer summer right now, could have that taken away from them by losing one or more very good players (Heinze or Robben leaving for example) and those who haven't been much active or impressive yet (Blackburn let's say) could still turn it around and make themselves stronger in the time that is left.

 

[lo zio]

He'll turn 30 very soon as well and for a guy his age, 16M isn't really a bargain. No matter how much undoubted quality he has. Especially when the transfer isn't so needed unlike the other ones such as Abidal, Yaya Toure and Gabi Milito who really do improve on a member that got playing time but was not good enough for Barca's expecations anymore. (Gio Van Bronkhorst, Thiago Motta and Thuram respectively let's say)

absolutely agree mate.
i'm really curious to see how frank will line up barca next season.
u can't keep players like ronaldinho, messi, eto'ò and henry out of the starting formation....... but u also can't play with all of them in the same time :roll:

honestly giuly was much more useful than henry for barca, imo

 

[hayabusa85]

Been watching Voronin in Leverkusen and Bundesliga for a long time as well and I have to very much disagree with you on that 'hayabusa'.

"Form is temporary, class is permanent." And Kuyt >>>>> Voronin.

Plus I know a bunch of players who in the past seasons have impressed in pre-season matches and friendlies but not when the real competition against teams other than South China or an unfit and unmotivated Werder and Auxerre began.

He's a decent player but nothing special. But considering, Liverpool got him for 'free', I like the transfer. Especially since he's equally as good of a finisher as Torres but one was free and one for as much as 28M :lol: according to some websites. (Could be less of course)

Yeah, sorry that's what i was getting at, while they're both hard working Kuyt is definetely the better player by a long way.

 

[Re-arranged]

Yep, Sina, that's the same Rodolfo who was playing for Dynamo Kiev and he's only 24, it's a very young age for a central back. He looks quality this season. Asatiani is Loko and Georgia NT CB/DMF who is among the best defenders in RPL, but he was injured for almost 1,5 years and has to work hard to get his form back.

 

[PLF]

I see.

To answer the question of the thread:

Upset to say this but RC Lens have bought well, solid keeper in Le Crom and good talent in Kanga Akale and Julian Sable and a great coach in Guy Roux.

Don't forget, Olivier Monterrubio was bought last January and that now means, Lens will have two good lefties and two of the best left wingers in France competing some of the time for one place. That's impressive!

The LB position was one of their weakest and they've brought in Lucien Aubey from Toulouse. Furthermore, Vedran Runje (Croatian Ex-OM and Besiktas GK) has been brought in to challenge Le Crom for that #1 position and that could be another good transfer.

They did lose star player and captain to Sevilla but Julien Sable is just as quality and a leader himself, so he should be able to fill Seydou Keita's place adequately enough.

It was the day before yesterday actually I think that, me and DeniroBob were actually talking about how Lens could be good shouts for a 2nd place finish in Ligue 1 next year and with good odds for betting as well. :8):

Marseille let Ribery go, but bulk up in quality with Benoit Cheyrou, Jacques Faty, Gael Givet, Laurent Bonnart and Karim Ziani, will be good to see how they do.

Don't forget Djibril Cisse either whom if can stay injury-free and not used as a right-winger :rolleyes: , once he gets his confidence back, can score you a lot of goals.

None of the players brought in have the same sorta quality that 'scarface' did of course and are nowhere near as special or talented as "Ribery".

BUT, it's probably best to have better quality players in 5-6 different positions than one world-class player and many mediocre ones as OM did last season.

Nonetheless, even with these new signings and the great crowd that will get behind them in their huge stadium, I expect them to struggle somewhat either in CL or in Ligue 1 because of CL involvement as LOSC did this year.

Same deal for Toulouse who was better off not being in CL this year in my opinion. Because I now doubt they have enough depth to compete respectively in both and involvement in Europe could hurt them domestically as it does every year with one or two clubs.

Sorry for going on guys, Sina inspiried me lol

Lol, well IF this is true, then I'm glad because you have made one hell of a nice post with lots of great insight. :8):

Yeah, sorry that's what i was getting at, while they're both hard working Kuyt is definetely the better player by a long way.

Actually, I'm the one that should be 'sorry', haya.

Because I read your last post again (the one before this one) and I noticed that I had misread what you'd written. I thought you were saying Voronin is better than Kuyt. But after reading over your post again, I see you were the saying the opposite.

So I'm the one who should be apologizing for misreading. There was nothing wrong or unclear about what you were point out.

 

[steevio_uk]

If we get Tevez too I think we have had a very good Summer transfer wise.

Never gonna happen!!! :lol:

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Never gonna happen!!! :lol:

Well one things for sure he'll be a "United" player next season

 

[jorgebolano]

Re: Who's spent the best?

Wow, lots of quality stuff in here, just like in the old days. ^^ I had to get used to catching-up and reading a whole page full of high-level football discussion again. Hope, I won't lose my practice anytime soon.

I agree on most of the points that have been made in here so far. Unfortunately, my knowledge on leagues other than Bundesliga is still rather limited, although I have been able to develop it at least a bit by watching some match and gaining some knowledge everyonce in a while. I'm really happy to hear from so many Bundesliga-fans from a respectable variety of different countries posting in this thread. Something that might be enormously interesting for you and also pretty surprising is that in Germany there are not so few football fans and PES players who go the same way as British and Spanish media tend to do. PES Downtown, which is possibly the most famous German PES "Community" (there hasn't been too much common spirit in the last years though), sadly is quite full of them. Moreover, there are guys from my class, who are hardcore followers of the German NT and rate Kuranyi higher than Klose, because the first was the one to receive some hype during the last season. :-s

So, what I'm trying to say is that not only British or Spanish media/people are overrating EPL and La Liga, but even people here in Germany and I wouldn't be too surprised if there was a similar situation in France.

United and Liverpool have definitely been splashing the cash, that's for sure.

Whether they've been great buys or not, we'll see at the end of this season and who is holding the title.

The fans I see, usually get very excited and happy when cash is being spent. Even if it could've been spent more wisely or on players that had the same amount of quality but could've been brought in for cheaper.

Couldn't agree any more on this, especially on the bolded part. Some guys bring this arguments saying: "Mr. X has been brought in for 10 Mio. €, so he can't be a bad player and will definitely a better addition to our squad than Mr. Y, who came for 2 Mio./free." :roll:

Another great prove a player's quality that can be found on German forums every now and then is: "Well, Bayern has bought José Ernesto Sosa and as they are our number squad they surely have bought a quality player. Therefore, Sosa can't be only a talented, but not yet very good player, but should have many of his stats in the yellow area. Why would Bayern have got him otherwise?" :lmao:

I even was a bit worried when I heard to Ribéry cost us as 25 Mio. €. I knew of his qualities and had no worries on his "provenness". Nevertheless, I consider Ribéry to be our best buy, which I already did before his Ligapokal performances, and not Luca Toni, who originally had been receiving more hype due. I'm not saying that Toni has been a bad signing, of course not, but I think Franck will turn out to be more helpful for us.

Talking about Bayern I'm glad about your answer to the original question of this thread, guys. I was pretty convinced of Bayern's transfer policy, but it's still great to see it backed up by several guys, who undoubtedly have a wider range of knowledge on European football and therefore can giving a more reliable rating on Bayern's squad. Telling you this, I have to state that I highly doubt Bayern having the best squad in Europe. There definitely are many quality players, but our central defenders are still scaring me a bit. Lúcio still has not found his old form, Demichelis tends to play passes that make me shaking in my shoes, Ismael has been injured for an enormously long time, Ottl is unproven as a CB on a high level and van Buyten playing alongside Lahm has been a constant threat for our goal during the last season. : \

Neverhteless, I'm positive about the upcoming season and I think Bayern really could progress very far in next year's UEFA-Cup and maybe even win it. Just thinking a bit, it's obviously still so far away and nobody can make any sensible prediction at this very moment.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Who's spent the best?

Telling you this, I have to state that I highly doubt Bayern having the best squad in Europe. There definitely are many quality players, but our central defenders are still scaring me a bit. Lúcio still has not found his old form, Demichelis tends to play passes that make me shaking in my shoes, Ismael has been injured for an enormously long time, Ottl is unproven as a CB on a high level and van Buyten playing alongside Lahm has been a constant threat for our goal during the last season. : \

i'd say that's bayern's weak point. Here in italy we use to say " to build up a team u need 1 good cb, 1 good central midfielder and 1 good, and preferably tall, foward" that's the "skeleton" of a team, around them u can build up a team.
well, if i have to be honest i don't like at all bayern's cbs.

Lucio has always been very overrated, imo. he has good foot, ok, but that's not the most important prerogative for a good cb. he has no discipline, and that's what makes him a bad cb, imo. he often leaves his spot in the defence creating dangerous holes in the defensive line. that's an unforgivable mistake for a cb... that's an amateur's mistake.

About Van buyten, well, bad positioning, just decent timing, not a great technique, and he clearely doesn't speak with his "rolemate" Lucio, as they never give u the idea their movements are coordinated, wich is very important for a defensive line.... we could say that they have no "chemistry" , that they don't act as they were a "one man defence" (but that's also lucio's fault).
he could be good enough for a mid-class team, but not for bayern.

Ismael doesn't look very reliable, too many injuries... and btw he's not even a great defender.

about demichelis and ottl, i'd consider them defensive midfielders rather than cbs.

anyway that's the only weak point i can see in this team.
i agree with u about considering ribery a better buy than toni. Toni is an awesome player but maybe he'll need some time to adapt himself to his new country and lifestyle and to find a good chemistry with his new teammates (anyway i don't think luca will have big problems in adapting himself to bundes football, as german football is a simple, basic football - wich is not a criticism, it's a great compliment to german football . the same goes for ribery too, of course, but franck already proved (in the last 2 matches against werder and stuttgart) that he already familiarized with his new team. Moreover Luca is injured at the moment, so he will skip the first phase of athletic preparation (wich is very important for a tall player).

but if i'd have to say which is the best buy for bayern (till now) i'd pick altintop and klose. they already know bundesliga football and if we make a costs-benefits analisys, i'd say they were the best bayern's transfers.

i saw the matches against werder and stuttgart and i have to say i was quite impressed

 

[Stringer Bell]

So many long post.

-

@PLF, Bonnart should do well for OM, his a very good LB.

 

[Clockender]

Whose spent the best? Man Utd in my opinion. They have all bases covered in their squad with quality.