Hi Vlad,
I'm not active much on the 'football' section of these forums, but before I reply to some sections of your post, allow me to say that, at times I have seen footy discussions here over the past 6 months or so and read a few posts from you as well as others and unless I'm mixing you up with someone else (I could be), I've at times found what you say to be sensible and my own personal opinions as well and things I agree with, just like with 'lo zio' and a number of other posters around. But unlike with 'lo zio', I never took the time to tell you this before.
Wait, you just used the performance of players in England, Spain and Italy to justify how the french league is somehow anywhere near them.
It is near them and it's not
'somehow' and Bundesliga is even closer to the top 3 and yes, I did. Is there a problem with that? What else can one do exactly when trying to argue the case I'm doing? :-s It's the only thing that makes sense.
How else can I exactly prove the quality of a league and its players to someone who maybe doesn't follow it regularly himself to know just how good it is?
If I said, they are great players in France, that wouldn't make sense because then some would be skeptical that they'd be great elsewhere, but what I did was name only a fraction out of the many successful ones who were in Ligue 1 and made the transition to one of the so-called 'top 3' leagues you mentioned and not only played well but became one of that league's very own best assets and stars. Not to mention, a number of fairly 'mediocre' and NON-top players of Ligue 1 who get exported to the other top leagues every year and actually make a name for themselves (bigger than they ever managed in France) like Chimbonda or Delporte like I previously mentioned.
You're making my point, not one of those players is a proven commodity until he reaches those leagues. I'm not saying Toure doesn't have potential, I'm saying there's a very limited scope to what you can prove playing outside the top 3 leagues.
No, I'm not making your point for you and I fully disagree with that.
The problem is stemming from the fact that you probably don't actually follow Bundesliga and Ligue 1 weekly yourself to know just how high quality it is and you're just judging it based on what the media in places like England and Spain is always feeding to its people which in a nutshell is very political, biased and sounds somewhat like the following:
"Our league is the best. Others are fairly $hit. Make no mistake about it and repeat after me! :lol: "
For me, there is no 'Top 3' leagues and that's the beauty of football as compared to Baseball or another sport. Yes, I do recognize the fact that the top 3 includes (Spain, England and Italy) and I'd rank it like that myself if I were to rank the top 3 of Europe. BUT, you don't see me mentioning the 'top 3' much because the difference between them and "#4 - Bundesliga" and "#5 - Ligue 1" isn't much.
When you go look at the mid-table and relegation candidates of Italy and England and compare them to the same ones in France, the gap is much less than the avg person in England and Italy thinks so and almost non-existant in some cases. I could argue for example that one of the relegated Bundesliga and Ligue 1 clubs would've actually survived this year perhaps in Serie A.
Until you start following the league, I really don't think, you have any idea from yourself (instead of being led to thinking who is good and who is bad from media or the general consensus) about what sorta quality teams like Rennes and Sochaux or Hertha Berlin and Hannover hold. But, I actually
know the players in these 4 teams individually. As a result, I can compare them with the same ones that I also see playing weekly in Fulham or Mallorca let's say. Even some of their bench members. I'm not saying they're great, not at all. They're far from 'great' but I bet ya, no real further than their same counterpart in England or Spain or Italy is and overall they're better than most people outside Germany and France
think they are.
So I get your point about the
"You're not proven until you've consistently performed well in one of Europe's top leagues" comments dude and I agree with it.
The only difference is, me and many of the guys who actually follows Bundesliga and Ligue 1, don't consider them "Lower" leagues and knows the difference between them and the top 3 isn't that much. So I consider a 'top' 5 because there is sufficient quality in 'every' one of its teams even the lower ones and that's why I pretty much only follow the top 5 European leagues and not much else. Because those are the 5 I deem, quality enough from head to toe to spend time getting to know and obsessing over.
Therefore, for me, if somebody is playing consistently and great at the Bundesliga or Ligue 1 level, he IS proven.
But anything outside the 'top 5', I don't easily get impressed with or deem fully 'proven' until they manage to also do the Biz in one of the top 5.
Because despite, Portugal, Holland, Greece, Turkey and a number of other nations having 'decent' leagues, the level of 'weak' clubs some of the top clubs face during the league really IS NOT as good as the ones in Bundesliga, Ligue 1 or the top 3.
So in that case, if a player is impressing in one of the above-mentioned leagues, I don't consider them fully 'proven'. Because many of the teams they faced (unlike in Germany and France) were to be honest quite weak and crap and the gap between their top clubs and mid-table ones and weaker ones, is much bigger than the gap between the counterparts of the same clubs and comparison in France and Germany and the top 3 as well.
In anycase, if what you said was true, then I guess Miroslav Klose, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Torsten Frings, Diego (who was unproven until last season which he was great), Ribery, Coupet, Juninho and many others are 'unproven'.
But they're not! They are some of the world's very best in their positions. Now I know what you can say, you can say but Klose is world-class and proven because he was great in world-cups.
But what if he hadn't? What if he had done nothing special or even played fairly bad like many players who we DO know are class and proven did in world-cups in those few games?
Would than then make him 'unproven' simply because he had played all his life in Bundesliga?
The answer is a big fat "No" of course because Bundesliga's level of football is very high and very much comparable to the top 3. Therefore its top performs just like in France ARE 'proven' and absolutely quality regardless of whether they impressed in the few CL matches they played (or didn't play) or on the international stage like in world-cups.
All in all then, I get what you're saying. The only difference is, me and Chris (Gomito), gibb and many of the other guys who actually follow Bundesliga and Ligue 1, consider 'top 5' not 'top 3' leagues and therefore see players who are OUTSIDE those 5 leagues but doing well 'unproven' until they do it in one of those leagues, where as you consider a 'top 3' and therefore anyone outside it, not proven until performed in that stage.
That's fine. I don't mean to change your opinions and in any case, it's impossible to do so anyhow until you actually start following the leagues yourself. Just ask Chris (Gomito) or the Scottish 'gib', 'roti' or a number of other "Non-French" Ligue 1 and Bundesliga followers. And they will all tell you one thing.
Before they actually started following the leagues themselves, they had the same opinion about it which most other people in their country did. An under-rated view of them due to not enough 'hype' and the way English media constantly looks down and talks down on them. (It's not just England's problem by the way. I've seen Spain do the same.)
If the gap between Bundesliga and Ligue 1 was so big to the top 3, then not even half as many Ligue 1 players would be exported to those leagues every year. But they go there, because the majority of them get the job done and are quality enough.
You don't see as many SPL, Superliga or Turkish league players joining EPL every year than you do with French players. Wonder why? They're surely not cheaper.
Furthermore, if the gap was big, you wouldn't have mediocre Ligue 1 players going to EPL and gaining first team places (which they sometimes didn't have in France) and establishing themselves.
But the truth is, the gap is not big. That's why a 'top 5' league is often more appropriate to speak of than a 'top 3'. Because the difference between the 5th best European league and the 6th one, just may be as big as the difference between #5 and #1.
See, you can rate Lyon's players highly because they play in the champions league often and encounter top teams. But someone who had one season at Monaco after dancing around europe's lower leagues to somehow be rated as a great signing, particularly for a team as loaded in midfield as Barca, is just silly talk.
If a player has enough quality and is ambitious enough, he'll make his way to the top. The fact that Yaya spent a year in Ukraine and also a year in the Greek league before moving to Monaco which plays in one of the best leagues in Europe and has 'European' recognition and pedigree itself, shouldn't hold him back or serve as a punishment or be almost looked down upon, compared to someone who's only played in EPL or La Liga let's say. If anything, it's shown that he's fairly adaptable and has the ability to shine in a number of different countries with different footballing styles and languages.
Second of all,
'loaded' in midfield is irrelevant and a general non-specific statement with little meaning since we have to look at the position he's likely to occupy at Barca and that's gonna be the DMF position most likely as Barca have better options for the creative more offensive CM, AMF positions in likes of Deco, Iniesta and Xavi.
They're not loaded in the DMF position because:
1) Thiago Motta is an extremely injury prone player and after having stuck with him for a few years and given votes of confidence to, he now sets likely to finally leave and doesn't have quite enough quality for a regular starting place in Barca anyway even if he wasn't injured so often.
2) Edmilson is gonna be out for a few months and when he does come back, there is no reason to believe and Barca certainly can't afford to assume, he's gonna be back to his best immediately to help them with their 'Going for Title' season, not to mention, as good as he is, he's not exactly 'world-class' either.
That leaves Rafa Marquez who can play in that position but he's a highly skilled CB naturally and Barca may look to keep him there to compete with Milito for a place next to Puyol.
So they're not actually packed and like I said, whether you want to call it 'proven' or not (which I agree, after only ONE successful season in one of Europe's top leagues, it's not enough to be fully convinced), he's already better than Thiago and Edmilson in my opinion and we'll see about that I guess.
P.S. - Unproven is not a byword for 'shit'. Unproven is someone like Cristiano Ronaldo before last season. Once you do well in the top leagues, you become 'proven'. Glad we cleared that up.
English isn't my first language but I know what 'unproven' means. IF it was like a 'synonym' for $hit/crap or even anything remotely close to it, I'd never have the audacity to call someone with the sorta ability Fernando Torres has, 'unproven'.
As for the bolded part, yes, that's correct. Except, for me, that's the top '5' leagues and not the top '3'! Therefore, just like C. Ronaldo, Diego last year proved to finally have turned into the sorta quality player we always knew he could become but previously at Porto and Santos had only shown glimpses of.
Again, the Torres transfer was £20.2M
How can you make me convinced of this though? Any real proof?
Should I just take your word for it and assume you were there in the leather seat when the negotations between the 2 clubs were taking place and at the final stages?
Like I said, bro, I haven't seen anything official to make me believe it IS 20.2M or 23M or 28M! I've heard all 3 reported by a large number of websites and people and none of course, we can be sure of.
Torres took a pay cut because he specifically wanted to play for Liverpool. I'm factoring that in as well - player's passion and desire.
I would've taken a pay cut in order to play for Liverpool and its Spanish manager and players than someone else in England as well.
Fitting in is a big factor and he has more chance of doing that in Liverpool, so he made that decision. It doesn't tell me anything more than he has 'brain' however. Reyes also had big ambitions, willingness to work hard and succeed and many big words to say upon joining for a lot of money.
Any player who has half an ounce of brain will say 'positive' stuff such as: "I will make this a success."
"I will give my best."
"I had big desire to join this club because.... "
"I had option of other clubs but I came here... "
"I took a pay-cut",
etc. etc.
It's nothing new and Fernando certainly isn't stupid. (By the way
Gomito, Fernando Torres IS very different from Fernando Morientes. Really shouldn't compare the two in my opinion and yes, I agree with Vlad when he says the only things they have in common pretty much is that they're both forwards, Spanish and named "Fernando"
)
So he'll say the same stuff and has said it.
Djibril Cisse said the very same things upon joining Liverpool a few years ago and of course he was also a
RECORD transfer signing and got a lot of fans all 'wet' and excited lol (but not me) and we know how that one ended. (Keep in mind, I'm not saying, Torres = Cisse)
So what he's said to the media or stuff doesn't mean much to me. It only makes sense if he's said and done all that. All players say complimentary/flattery stuff to the club and its fans when they join. It'd be weird if he didn't. You'd have to be a retard not to say stuff like that when joining a club. Everyone does even if they join a crappy club with crap facilities and crap history, nowhere near the level of Liverpool FC.
but then will go on to establish himself as one of EPL's leading right-backs! ) and one or two more of the purchases of West Ham football club.
). I think we're really wrangling about subjective things, and you've summarised all the issues well. I'll take pride in making you write up such an exhaustive review of Barca's transfer activity!
. the same goes for ribery too, of course, but franck already proved (in the last 2 matches against werder and stuttgart) that he already familiarized with his new team. Moreover Luca is injured at the moment, so he will skip the first phase of athletic preparation (wich is very important for a tall player).
