not so bother about the 360 dribble and trick sick, but L1 and the passing system means i can never appreciate PES the way it is.
Saying that, passing is still decent in older PES games.
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Well, it looks like PES 2010 in, FIFA 10 out for me as well.
- Thread starter iluvnineties
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not so bother about the 360 dribble and trick sick, but L1 and the passing system means i can never appreciate PES the way it is.
Saying that, passing is still decent in older PES games.
Thanks, much appreciated! But as a long term PES/WE player I know (most) of the control schemes/tricks. I'm missing innovations/inventions in PES.
FIFA has "borrowed" lots of PES's features (/\ pass into space, etc...), I'm demanding the same of Konami.
FIFA has its weak points in the AI (too strong in high(er) levels, too bad in pro), but in terms of control FIFA is #1
tc811
Resident Evo-Web Retard
Well besides entirely reprogramming the near-perfect gameplay engine of PES, there's not much more that can be done with control schemes because you can already do almost anything you want anyway...
If there is one thing that needs to be changed though, crossing is far too effective because even Christian Chivu can cross like David Beckham if he's given enough space. Also attackers are far too effective at getting in front of defenders for a header; it's like every forward has the ability to position himself like Torres for an easy header on goal.
As much as I like FIFA's control scheme the rest of the gameplay reminds me way too often that the game is just FUBARed tactically.
PS I do understand where the tricksters are coming from because some people will not play PES just because they can't "freestyle". IMO if anyone is going to take football gameplay to the next level with the same level of elegant simplicity we've seen for the past decade or more, it's KONAMI.
As with all PES related discussions, PES 2008 and 2009 are not taken into consideration.
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Leo
League 2
tc811
Resident Evo-Web Retard
opinion. We're on a forum. If you don't agree explain why instead of saying I'm stupid.
Leo
League 2
Tell me why you consider PES to have near perfect gameplay then. Where is the true 360 degree movement, the diversity in ways to dribble the ball, the possibility to do things with the ball in very small spaces, the ability to have true control of passes and shots, the realistic goalkeepers? I don't have the energy to go on but please, elaborate.
tc811
Resident Evo-Web Retard
Ask Rob, I don't deal with the blind...
R
Rob92
Guest
It makes me laugh when people try to say FIFA is a good game just because it has 360 degree movement and manual controls which give you more freedom.
Freedom to do what exactly...? The freedom to repeatedly exploit the defensive AI? The freedom to try numerous ways of attacking, only for all but a couple to fail?
Only when the game has the proper balances between defence and attack, strength and skill and actually has realistic AI and gameplay can the extra freedom feel natural and worthwhile, unless those conditions are met, all you're doing on manual is making an arcade game a bit more difficult for yourself.
I'd agree with tc811 in that PES' gameplay is near perfect - almost any goal you see in real life could be replicated on at least one version of PES... When you watch MOTD, it just makes you realise how bad FIFA is because a very small proportion of the goals would be possible to replicate (even slightly) on it.
Freedom to do what exactly...? The freedom to repeatedly exploit the defensive AI? The freedom to try numerous ways of attacking, only for all but a couple to fail?
Only when the game has the proper balances between defence and attack, strength and skill and actually has realistic AI and gameplay can the extra freedom feel natural and worthwhile, unless those conditions are met, all you're doing on manual is making an arcade game a bit more difficult for yourself.
I'd agree with tc811 in that PES' gameplay is near perfect - almost any goal you see in real life could be replicated on at least one version of PES... When you watch MOTD, it just makes you realise how bad FIFA is because a very small proportion of the goals would be possible to replicate (even slightly) on it.
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Leo
League 2
Okey, but where did I say that it was perfect in FIFA?
No game is even close to perfect even if FIFA is way closer (to me, if you play against people trying to play something close to real football), and if you really think that PES is so good then please answer where in PES you can find the things I asked for. Personally I can't even watch a single goal in PES because almost every single goal keeping action looks so crap that it turns me off completely.
And if you think PES has a "near-perfect" gameplay then I assume you think the 360 degree movement is awesome because last I checked that is a pretty deal deal in real life football.
No game is even close to perfect even if FIFA is way closer (to me, if you play against people trying to play something close to real football), and if you really think that PES is so good then please answer where in PES you can find the things I asked for. Personally I can't even watch a single goal in PES because almost every single goal keeping action looks so crap that it turns me off completely.
And if you think PES has a "near-perfect" gameplay then I assume you think the 360 degree movement is awesome because last I checked that is a pretty deal deal in real life football.
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Rob92
Guest
The reason it's near perfect is because it lacks certain things... it would be perfect if it contained everything we ask for.
Of course 360 degree movement and (optional) manual controls would be nice additions to PES, and i'd go as far as saying that if it had those two things plus better animations, (gameplay wise) FIFA would not be able to comepete whatsoever.
You go on about it a lot, but how does 360 degree movement help in FIFA?
It should help you keep possession of the ball by being able to maneuver away from defenders more easily and make facing up to and taking defenders on more realistic - this is not really the case due to the stupid defending/pressure/collisions system.
It should also help you get a better pass/shot away by being able to move the ball onto your player's stronger foot - this isn't the case because passes are the same accuracy at all angles and shots are generally only struck well when done so in one way (moving and facing goal).
Nothing much to really add to the realism then, and not something that would be missed by me if playing a game which doesn't have it (i.e. PES5), however (again) if the rest of the game was balanced and improved, it would be worth having.
You rank goalkeeper animations above goalkeeper AI?
PES5 goalkeepers may have had poor animations but they are 100x more realistic than FIFA keepers...
Of course 360 degree movement and (optional) manual controls would be nice additions to PES, and i'd go as far as saying that if it had those two things plus better animations, (gameplay wise) FIFA would not be able to comepete whatsoever.
You go on about it a lot, but how does 360 degree movement help in FIFA?
It should help you keep possession of the ball by being able to maneuver away from defenders more easily and make facing up to and taking defenders on more realistic - this is not really the case due to the stupid defending/pressure/collisions system.
It should also help you get a better pass/shot away by being able to move the ball onto your player's stronger foot - this isn't the case because passes are the same accuracy at all angles and shots are generally only struck well when done so in one way (moving and facing goal).
Nothing much to really add to the realism then, and not something that would be missed by me if playing a game which doesn't have it (i.e. PES5), however (again) if the rest of the game was balanced and improved, it would be worth having.
You rank goalkeeper animations above goalkeeper AI?
PES5 goalkeepers may have had poor animations but they are 100x more realistic than FIFA keepers...
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Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
Are you sure? Dribbling and close control in Fifa is quite poor in my opinion due to the response times, over physicality of defenders and the unnatural and over complex control scheme. 360 degree control adds nothing to the gameplay in my experience, it's just aesthetics.
I've said it before but Fifa 10 gives you complete freedom to do the same thing over and over again because underneath the fancy exterior I think the gameplay is actually quite shallow and it channels you to play a certain way. PES may be on rails, stiff, rigid - whatever you want to call it - but I feel I can play much more expressive football in that game than Fifa.
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Don't agree with you about FIFA 10 response times being off, but the physicality is very annoying. There is no close control in FIFA 10, but even if there was it would be useless as you'd get barged off the ball 24/7.
You and Rob make excellent arguments why PES is still ahead in terms of past games, but these days I can't see past FIFA 10. PES 2010 is decent after the patch, but still a poor football game. How long you guys going to compare FIFA 10 to PES5?
I agree with what you say, but feel defending PES is pointless as Konami are ruining what we loved.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
I think all football games - not just Fifa10 - will be compared to PES5 by people like myself and Rob until a better one comes out.
Anyway, maybe it's not the response times that are off but I still feel that I have to wait for players in Fifa to finish an animation routine before they respond to my input. In the meantime I will be barged off the ball by double sprint pressure. I feel like the ball gets sucked away from my player's feet as soon as he goes near a defender, such is the effectiveness of the pressing in this game.
By the way I'm comparing more to PES2010 than PES5. Technically PES2010 is a poor game on this gen, but it's a hell of a lot of fun, and however dated it may feel it's still classic PES for better or worse. Until Fifa can inject a bit of fun, and the unpredictability and randomness of a real football match into the gameplay then it will never be better than PES for me. Fifa is far too clinical and sterile, and because of that I play a couple of games here and there and get bored. The PES disc used to live in my console. Dare I say it, but Fifa needs a bit of scripting here and there to liven it up a bit.
nerf
Forming triangles
I can't agree that that's the way to go.
What FIFA needs is more character and atmosphere. It needs tactics to be more tangible and immersive, it needs greater player individuality and authenticity, and it needs more atmosphere surrounding each matchday. Those are the things that will make it less sterile and more involving, not attempting to falsify events here and there.
Placebo
Ԁlɐɔǝqo
What Fifa needs is QA.
tc811
Resident Evo-Web Retard
I think that's the statement that sums up FIFA quite succinctly.
So I got PES 10 for Xmas and have to say... it's a pile of crap gameplay wise.
Don't get me wrong, the player faces and having the Champions League are nicer, but seriously... Is the same kicking the ball sound still in there from like 6 years ago? In 2010 do we still have to have generic teams? I felt like I was in a time warp... I mean, you can have a licensed Chelsea for the Champions League but not for the EPL, or is it BPL?
Crowd noise sucks, passing is very rigid, movement is very clumpy - I do like the bullet headers and long shots though.
I don't like FIFA 10 much at all for the reasons listed all over the place, but there really shouldn't be much of a debate about which game is better. FIFA has far surpassed PES and I thought the opposite years ago.
Don't get me wrong, the player faces and having the Champions League are nicer, but seriously... Is the same kicking the ball sound still in there from like 6 years ago? In 2010 do we still have to have generic teams? I felt like I was in a time warp... I mean, you can have a licensed Chelsea for the Champions League but not for the EPL, or is it BPL?
Crowd noise sucks, passing is very rigid, movement is very clumpy - I do like the bullet headers and long shots though.
I don't like FIFA 10 much at all for the reasons listed all over the place, but there really shouldn't be much of a debate about which game is better. FIFA has far surpassed PES and I thought the opposite years ago.
klashman69
Fight the Power!
- 28 November 2007
Did you download the 1.03 patch? it seems you simply expected the game to feel different from pes6. TBh you will like PES 2010 if you give it time and don't focus 100% on the animations. The animations are very poor at times but the player individuality and all round 'football' feel to game makes it worth playing.
Try playing the game for what it is, not for what you expected it to be, i tried the same for FIFA 10 but it's still poor.
klashman69
Fight the Power!
- 28 November 2007
Best post in the thread
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TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- 7 August 2004
- Team
- Liverpool
What? Your own post? 
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
Ah yes, these threads. A cosy Sunday retreat where 90% of people agree FIFA 10 is shit and the other 10% is Retri.
When you look at what FIFA 10 gets right, none of it really requires any football insight. It's all technological. The animations are mostly superb, physicality is impressive at face value, the 360 degree movement is almost exactly 360 degree... I've run out. You don't have to understand football to get the above right. Naughty Dog among others could achieve the above without breaking a sweat. The actual footballing aspects that are being packaged alongside all this Game Expo wet dreamery are simply too unsophisticated and devoid of passion.
I play PES 2010 very sparingly, and only to play some guys from a blog 2v2. It looks and feels hideous to play for the most part, and whereas EA have made League Two players play like midtable Premiership players, Konami have made midtable Premiership teams play like League Two sides. However, while they have completely overdone player error to the point where it's almost funny, it gives you that sense of having to play a particular way to suit your side's strengths and weaknesses, or it makes successfully playing against the grain of your side's limitations all the more satisfying.
jeblo05 said:
When you look at what FIFA 10 gets right, none of it really requires any football insight. It's all technological. The animations are mostly superb, physicality is impressive at face value, the 360 degree movement is almost exactly 360 degree... I've run out. You don't have to understand football to get the above right. Naughty Dog among others could achieve the above without breaking a sweat. The actual footballing aspects that are being packaged alongside all this Game Expo wet dreamery are simply too unsophisticated and devoid of passion.
I play PES 2010 very sparingly, and only to play some guys from a blog 2v2. It looks and feels hideous to play for the most part, and whereas EA have made League Two players play like midtable Premiership players, Konami have made midtable Premiership teams play like League Two sides. However, while they have completely overdone player error to the point where it's almost funny, it gives you that sense of having to play a particular way to suit your side's strengths and weaknesses, or it makes successfully playing against the grain of your side's limitations all the more satisfying.
Dusse
Banned
Actually, I think is rather the opposite. Tactics etx (AI) is much easier to learn than actually playing football. Tactics etc is very much not a practical but a theoretical skill and follows certain patterns etc and is something that is quite "easy" to break down in understandable pieces.
On the other hand, creativity and freedom with the ball is very much about imagination and is very unpredictable. It's not something logical and does not follow a certain pattern, and the basics is much more complex than the basics of tactics etc.
IE IMO what FIFA does is much more complex then what PES does and the AI is easier to fix than the freedom and creativity in handling the ball. So to me, what FIFA does require a much deeper understanding of football than what PES does, that is actually just the very basics of what you learn when you start to play football. Besides, the AI and individuality in PES is actually quite poor IMO.
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
Umm...? No offence, I don't know you and I'm not familiar with your posts in general, but I'm completely baffled by that on several levels.
So you're saying that you don't need to understand football in order to code good football game AI? To know how to make the defenders defend properly, not just standing in the general area as in FIFA? To make sure the fullback on the other side of the pitch isn't standing 10 yards further back than the rest of his players, playing the speedy centre forward onside, even when you've chosen to play a square line? To teach attackers what a good scoring threat is? If that was even a tiny bit close to being true then why wouldn't that apply to being a manager or a coach? If you don't need to have any interest or understanding of football to be a good football tactician then why are 99.99% (maybe more!) of all football managers former football players? It's certainly not tradition, nor is it a law within the game.
Ignoring of course that the practical side of the football, and the creativity you are expected to express with it, is something FIFA gets atrociously wrong anyway. As we've been at pains to point out, this is a game that rewards you attacking in the same ways by negating your ability to score other types of goals. It just looks smooth while it does it. Just watch EA's own goal of the week competition to see what types of goals people have scored. See how many times the first time dipping volley is scored over the keeper. Or the lob. Say what you like about PES, but even if the AI isn't great at least it's balanced, and FIFA can't hold a candle to the sheer scope of even the latest PES's creativity.
So you're saying that you don't need to understand football in order to code good football game AI? To know how to make the defenders defend properly, not just standing in the general area as in FIFA? To make sure the fullback on the other side of the pitch isn't standing 10 yards further back than the rest of his players, playing the speedy centre forward onside, even when you've chosen to play a square line? To teach attackers what a good scoring threat is? If that was even a tiny bit close to being true then why wouldn't that apply to being a manager or a coach? If you don't need to have any interest or understanding of football to be a good football tactician then why are 99.99% (maybe more!) of all football managers former football players? It's certainly not tradition, nor is it a law within the game.
Ignoring of course that the practical side of the football, and the creativity you are expected to express with it, is something FIFA gets atrociously wrong anyway. As we've been at pains to point out, this is a game that rewards you attacking in the same ways by negating your ability to score other types of goals. It just looks smooth while it does it. Just watch EA's own goal of the week competition to see what types of goals people have scored. See how many times the first time dipping volley is scored over the keeper. Or the lob. Say what you like about PES, but even if the AI isn't great at least it's balanced, and FIFA can't hold a candle to the sheer scope of even the latest PES's creativity.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
As with romagnoli, I simply cannot agree with anything you have written here.
Tactics is certainly one area that PES2010 is ahead of Fifa this year. Seabass and his team have always understood the tactical side of football, and with the exception of PES2008 and maybe 2009, the series has always been the football purists game of choice. Spend a bit of time with PES2010 playing as the same team and it's quite clear how the sliders, player cards and all the other settings, as well as the individuality of the players make PES the more realistic team game.
If tactics is mainly a theoretical skill and so easy to learn then why is EA, with it's large team and resources, struggling so badly to create a highly tactical Fifa? EA were always criticised for not understanding football and I don't think much has changed. Yes, they are great at creating a visually pleasing, silky smooth football game with plenty of online modes, but deep down the football experience is very shallow. You play the way the game engine restricts you to. There is more freedom of movement in Fifa compared to PES, but the game is actually quite restrictive. It's about playing the same attack patterns and scoring the same goals. Playing Fifa is like trying to beat a computer game, but PES is a more impulsive football experience, like the sport in real life.
paddyknight
Championship
- 11 November 2003
In truth, i can't play either of them for more than 2 games without getting bored now due to lack of variety.
Fifa 10 the only way i can score is break away and then finesse shot into the bottom corner theres no space/ i get closed down immediately if have it in any other shooting position, Pes 10 on the other hand the only way i feel like i can score is to spank it from about 30 yards - because dribbling doesnt feel close and the players all feel clumsy.
Graphics wise - both are good but i have to say pes wins hands down, the graphics are stunning.
Animations and movement - Fifa by a mile
Passing and shooting - its too accurate in Fifa and too far the other way, and random in pes.
I think Fifa is great to play but Pes feels like a constant fight against the game itself (rather than the opposition) so is far more satisfying to succeed in, cos if i'm going to succeed in Fifa, on any difficulty, i know its going to be through breakaways more or less! In many ways i think 09 had more variation in attack.
So my ideal would be Pes graphics, Fifa licenses, Pes challenge/variation, Fifa fluidity, speed and movement, and somewhere in the middle on passing, shooting, and importance of speed/power (Fifa) v ridiculous over importance of stats in Pes (ie a low stat in certain elements basically resigns a player to retardation!)
Fifa 10 the only way i can score is break away and then finesse shot into the bottom corner theres no space/ i get closed down immediately if have it in any other shooting position, Pes 10 on the other hand the only way i feel like i can score is to spank it from about 30 yards - because dribbling doesnt feel close and the players all feel clumsy.
Graphics wise - both are good but i have to say pes wins hands down, the graphics are stunning.
Animations and movement - Fifa by a mile
Passing and shooting - its too accurate in Fifa and too far the other way, and random in pes.
I think Fifa is great to play but Pes feels like a constant fight against the game itself (rather than the opposition) so is far more satisfying to succeed in, cos if i'm going to succeed in Fifa, on any difficulty, i know its going to be through breakaways more or less! In many ways i think 09 had more variation in attack.
So my ideal would be Pes graphics, Fifa licenses, Pes challenge/variation, Fifa fluidity, speed and movement, and somewhere in the middle on passing, shooting, and importance of speed/power (Fifa) v ridiculous over importance of stats in Pes (ie a low stat in certain elements basically resigns a player to retardation!)
for me scoring in PES is far too easy. You can score from any area, no special built up to create chances is required.
It's far more rewarding to score in FIFA (manual controls, else it's stupid button mashing, too), and it's possible to score all kind of goals (long range, volleys, finesse,...) not just sinmple 1-on-1s, too.
The more important thing for me is the built up play. In FIFA I have the freedom to create the built-up play I like (--> semi/manual passing):
- passing into free spaces
- sending a player into space
PES plays as being on rails (rails = tactical sliders, you can change them, I know...)
The "perfect game" for me would be:
- controls: FIFA
- animations: FIFA
- textures/lightening: PES
- models: PES/FIFA
- AI: tweaked FIFA with a grain of PES individuality
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both games are too "individual"/have different approach to compare them exacty, though:
PES --> easy control ("boring"), but "deep" gameplay due to "advanced" AI
FIFA --> deep control ("frustrating"), lazy implementation of team tactics --> no variety.
I did download the patch as I read it make the passing slower? I will give it another shot and have played it several different times and for decent stretches at a time as well.
I loved the old PES games but the presentation of the game is still back in those times. I am not a big animation person - It just feels really awkward at times.
100% agree - I think for years now many people have felt if you could combine the good aspects of both games into one you would have one hell of a game. I wonder when Konami will sell to EA? : )
tc811
Resident Evo-Web Retard
That will never happen unless EA sheds its stigma of being the "casual" football game. Also EA's consumer base for FIFA is way too large, and it would be financial suicide if EA made drastic changes to the FIFA gameplay engine, like removing assisted passing from the game. It can't be done. Can you imagine the outrage from the assisted fanboys if FIFA introduced a first touch game mechanic like PES does?
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