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VAR is destroying my soul

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
Mattmid, your extreme example has happened in real life, can't rememeber where, but it is not fiction and the officials made a correct (but not a just) decision.

But has this something to do with VAR? No, not at all. The rule is ridiculous. Change the rule and this will not ahppen again.

People also criticise that goals are not validated because a player is a few millimetres offside. I don't see the problem. Offside is like pregnancy: you are either pregnant or not, you can't be marginally pregnant. So being very, very, very marginally offside is still being offside... It is ridiculous that a goal is disallowed because a player is 1 mm offside? So when does it cease to be ridiculous? If the player is 2 mm offside? 3mm? 30mm? 300mm? 3.000mm?

Of course there are absolutely ridiculous things, ap layer is considered offside because his armpit is offside? This is completely Monty Phytonesque. I challenge you to score a goal with your armpit…(imagine people trying this...hilarious). Is VAR to blame for these absurdities? Not at all.

FIFA should take a look at the rules considering that VAR is there to stay and that now the officials can see the finest margins. Rewrite the rules considering what VAR can do and the problem is solved.

In this whole thread i haven't seen a single problem that is caused by VAR. But this becoming my favourite thread on evo web. This discussion is very important and enjoyable. I hope that the powers that be will have a similar discussion, but i doubt it.

Oh and what have i learned since VAR is functioning? That most pundits are completely ridiculous and daft people.
 

P34SEMM

@iam_emmo
2 November 2011
Romford
Liverpool FC
We are the only country that uses the lines. If you need the lines to determine whether someone is offside then its not clear and obvious so the goal should stand. Weve already seen Martin Aktinson from the control centre fudge the lines so that Firmino looked offside Vs Villa when he was clearly onside.
The ref should be made to look at the pitch side screen without lines (like in the MLS and other countries) and if he cannot see a blatant offside then it should be goal.
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
The lines are also used here in Belgium, in Germany, Italy and (i think) in Holland. I'm pretty sure that they are also used in Europe. How can one Judge off-side without the lines?

And if you use an example of something outrageously wrong, don't use an example of your favourite team. That is the problem with much fans who complain about VAR, they only complain if it disadvantages their own team. And it seems lots of English fans think that there are conspiracies against their favourite team. I'm a Spurs fan and what i read on twitter from other Spurs fans is ridiculous. Why d so much English fans think everybody is against their favourite club?
 

mattmid

International
15 December 2011
Mattmid, your extreme example has happened in real life, can't rememeber where, but it is not fiction and the officials made a correct (but not a just) decision.

But has this something to do with VAR? No, not at all. The rule is ridiculous. Change the rule and this will not ahppen again.

What was the outcome of that example, a free kick to the other team back where the initial 'defending' handball was? Does it then become a penalty then if it's in the area?? As you say an absolutely crazy rule that needs to be changed.

As my team are in League 1, I could care less anyway at the moment :)

I do think it should be looked at quickly by VAR and if they think it's a tight offside/penalty call/violent conduct then simply tell the ref he should take another look and then he can go over to the Var screen and check it himself. That way there's no worry of undermining the ref and he's still making the decision.
 

mattmid

International
15 December 2011
If that doesn't show what a complete farce that rule is then I don't know what will. So the handball was then deemed deliberate because it was an attacking handball? Or was this slightly different and it actually was a genuine handball anyway?
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
If i remember correct it it wasn't an handball at all.
The handball rule is ruïning football, not VAR.

One might also wonder if the off-side rule should not be ruled.
 

P34SEMM

@iam_emmo
2 November 2011
Romford
Liverpool FC
The lines are also used here in Belgium, in Germany, Italy and (i think) in Holland. I'm pretty sure that they are also used in Europe. How can one Judge off-side without the lines?

And if you use an example of something outrageously wrong, don't use an example of your favourite team. That is the problem with much fans who complain about VAR, they only complain if it disadvantages their own team. And it seems lots of English fans think that there are conspiracies against their favourite team. I'm a Spurs fan and what i read on twitter from other Spurs fans is ridiculous. Why d so much English fans think everybody is against their favourite club?

I could list dozens but of course im going to remember the ones that affect my team.....but my other favorite one is the Sheff Utds wingers foot being offside nowhere near the penalty box v Spurs and the goal was ruled out.
I used the LFC one as well because what VAR has done has made Refs scared to Ref and when they make a mistake they fudge the lines to make it look like they were correct. As Chris Karama said on Goals on Sunday re the FIrmino goal - someone(LFC hating Martin Atkinson) at Stockley Park has made a decision to cancel a perfectly good goal to back up the ref. He put an A4 sheet on the screen and the line was diagonal.

For me Wolves goal against LFC shoud stand and so to Manes V Watford.

Also the stupid rule about handball in the box does my head in.
If a defender handles accidentally its not a pen but if a forward accidentally handles its a free kick. How can that be?
 

mattmid

International
15 December 2011
Also the stupid rule about handball in the box does my head in.
If a defender handles accidentally its not a pen but if a forward accidentally handles its a free kick. How can that be?

There's no doubt that rule was made for VAR. I remember the one earlier in the season that went through two players but touched the attacker's arm without him or any other player or the ref having any idea it had grazed his arm (completely accidentally) and it's get ruled out for handball, absolutely farcical. Having two rules depending on if the team is attacking or defending is a complete joke. Hence my question about an extreme example of a shot hitting a defenders arm accidentally, so no penalty, but it rebounds and starts a counter attack that is scored from, does that handball then become a foul because it helped create a goal and is therefore now an attacking handball! Nonsense.
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
To me the most absurd handball was the one in the CL final (now i'm also talking about my favourite team). It ruïned the most important match of the year in the second minute. It was Obvious that Sissoko never hand the intention the manipulate the ball with his hand. Mané was very close (he targeted Sissoko's hand, and i don't blame him, because the silly rule invites him to do that) and on top of that the ball touches Sissoko's chest before it touched his arm...even according to the stupid rule that isn't a handball (to be honest: LIverpool were the bestter team and deserved to win).
 

*aLe

World Cup Winner
30 August 2005
Lombardia
NOT Lombardia NA.
I've lost my faith in VAR.

I mean, how can this not be a penalty?
rigore-non-dato-su-toloi-incomprensibilegasp-polemico-guarda-la-foto-ch_630756cc-34c0-11ea-a06e-273525087260_700_455_big_gallery_linked_i.jpg


Look at where it happened... Toloi could've easily scored from there had he been let free to reach the ball.
Inter-Atalanta-lepisodio-su-Toloi-1024x884.jpg


No penalty, and of course VAR satayed totally silent. 🤮🤡
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
Of course this is a penalty, but i don't why you can loose faith in VAR when the error is clearly human in this case.
I'm still convinced that VAR is the way forward, but i could agree with people who calim that refs are protercting themselves and their colleagues, a sort of corporatism that is very negative for football.

The powers that be should talk woth the referees.

Atalatna are my favourite team in Italy, but it is not VAR who lost them two points...they missed a penalty with 3 minutes to play. Malinovsky should be their penalty taker, he rarely misses. I saw him 3 seasons at Genk (my favourite Belgian team). He is arguably the best set piece taker i've ever seen.
 

Cuky

International
23 June 2007
Rab, Croatia
Real Madrid, Hajduk Split
Our league debuted VAR this weekend. And it already had an interesting impact on one match. Varaždin vs. Hajduk. Hajduk got 3 penalties in that game all awarded after consulting with VAR while they also had a originally allowed goal dismissed because of offside that assistant missed to signal.
 

Isslander

Gordon's alive!
3 August 2003
Iceland
Liverpool
We are the only country that uses the lines. If you need the lines to determine whether someone is offside then its not clear and obvious so the goal should stand. Weve already seen Martin Aktinson from the control centre fudge the lines so that Firmino looked offside Vs Villa when he was clearly onside.
The ref should be made to look at the pitch side screen without lines (like in the MLS and other countries) and if he cannot see a blatant offside then it should be goal.

Excactly. This is the best way to do it. look at the screen without the lines, if you can't conclusively tell if it is offside, then advantage goes to the attacker (as it was supposed to be before) and the goal stands.
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
UK
Tranmere Rovers
We are the only country that uses the lines. If you need the lines to determine whether someone is offside then its not clear and obvious so the goal should stand. Weve already seen Martin Aktinson from the control centre fudge the lines so that Firmino looked offside Vs Villa when he was clearly onside.
The ref should be made to look at the pitch side screen without lines (like in the MLS and other countries) and if he cannot see a blatant offside then it should be goal.
Excactly. This is the best way to do it. look at the screen without the lines, if you can't conclusively tell if it is offside, then advantage goes to the attacker (as it was supposed to be before) and the goal stands.
100% agree with this.

I've heard pundits say on many occasions "that's the beauty of VAR and offside, you're either offside or you aren't", but I think they're missing the point.

We don't have lasers shooting beams over the pitch so that we have a true measurement, or sensors in players' boots that tell VAR the exact moment at which a pass has been struck. We have imperfect people, drawing lines from imperfect freeze-frames and through a "precise spot" on a body part that the guy in the VAR box considers the "exact centre of the armpit", or elbow, or whatever.

VAR does not give us a categorically correct "offside" or "onside" in those incredibly tight instances - and when a pundit says "there's millimetres in it", I just don't believe those millimetres aren't because the bloke drawing the lines is shaking in fear of getting it wrong.

Football is a game, and ultimately exists to entertain - and yes, it's a business, so we need it to be as fair as possible, and technology can help - but if we're going to stop a match for five minutes to make a decision based on something imperfect, why not give the referee or linesman, who seemingly has less and less power*, the opportunity to look at the best-possible freeze-frame and make an eyeball decision based on giving the attacker the advantage if they can't be certain.

It's just astonishing to me what the priorities for this technology are - that so much time is spent on fractional offsides, with no time given (or even rules that allow intervening) for cases where a player pulls another player down in a headlock inside the penalty area, that would be a foul ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE FIELD. Or even worse - players diving a second after contact being made.

It seems punishments for diving don't exist any more. Mourinho and co. are right to have players go down, as Sean Dyche says here, "squealing and screaming", because it will always win a foul, and because they'll never be punished for it. I can't recall seeing so many obvious fouls not given because a player hasn't made enough of a meal of it - is it not a joke, with this technology, that they should have to act like a child falling off a bike to get a free kick?

*Speaking of referees having less power - it's also incredibly frustrating to know that every time a referee goes over to watch a replay of something, he's going to reverse his decision, because if another referee is saying to him "you might want to double-check that one", you might feel like you've made a huge mistake and that you have to undo it... even when it's a subjective decision.
 
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mattmid

International
15 December 2011
We have imperfect people, drawing lines from imperfect freeze-frames

This. Making nasal hair width decisions based on a guess that the picture is frozen at the exact moment the ball was kicked.

Also why do the lines look like they are drawn in 640*480 resolution :LOL: Reminds me of lines on a screen from the days of the ZX Spectrum.


I can't recall seeing so many obvious fouls not given because a player hasn't made enough of a meal of it - is it not a joke, with this technology, that they should have to act like a child falling off a bike to get a free kick?

I remember thinking this the other week when a player was clearly fouled but didn't go down because he tried to continue, ultimately unsuccessful (think it may have been a Brighton player). Had he gone down it would have been a definite penalty. It's no wonder they all fall over at the slightest touch when they won't get given a foul otherwise.

Was it Antonio (think so) in the game at the weekend, he was breaking clear and (Gundogan?) was pulling and grabbing him back, but he kept going and managed to actually pass it ok as he was falling, The ref played what was actually a good advantage but once the ball was out of play he didn't book the City player! Had Antonio gone down he would have been booked straight away.
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
UK
Tranmere Rovers
Was it Antonio (think so) in the game at the weekend, he was breaking clear and (Gundogan?) was pulling and grabbing him back, but he kept going and managed to actually pass it ok as he was falling, The ref played what was actually a good advantage but once the ball was out of play he didn't book the City player! Had Antonio gone down he would have been booked straight away.
Yep. That was absolutely outrageous. Honesty being punished. Pep and his tactical fouls - AKA rugby tackles... Totally unpunished.
 

Madmac79

Champions League
11 September 2006
Funnily enough in the just finished Milan-Roma the referee gave away two ridiculous, literally inexistent penalties (one to each team) without watching VAR.

I'm not a fan, but at least they should use it when it's the case.. lol. I think there is still too much confusion.
 

Officer

Non-League
31 October 2013
The Liverpool derby was spoilt at the end of an enthralling game between two decent squads by a ridiculos and invisible offside.
Can someone explain that disallowed third winning goal? What an heck is the VAR doing there?
 

superleeds1

72 Veteran
Staff
16 July 2004
LUFC O.K.
Don't know if any of You ever watch Rugby League, but the sheer quality of video refereeing has to be seen to be appreciated.

The way they do it and run it back live from as many angles as the ref calls ,with clear talk through makes the decision irrefutable.

EPL could learn a lot from this.
 

mattmid

International
15 December 2011
Clearly gaining an advantage on his knees. I find it very frustrating. Yes, by the letter of the law he is offside but do we really need to be going to these lengths?

Did you see when they had the close up of it as he was drawing the line? Toney's knee was in blobs that looked about the resolution I used to get on my Spectrum as a kid. His entire thigh below his shorts was about three blobs. Where's the accuracy in that!

I think it would be much fairer if they just paused the picture at the point of impact and if it can be seen to be clearly offside, then it's offside, if it requires lines to find out then just give the attacking team the advantage.


Also something I just thought about with VAR. If there's a goal but there was a foul just before that wasn't initially seen and VAR spots it then the goal is disallowed. However if a team wins a free kick outside the box and they score from it, what if replays would have shown that it shouldn't have been a free kick? That foul wasn't checked but in the other instance it was. I know there has to be a limit otherwise we'd spend all game watching replays on everything but as it's the immediate act before a goal where's the consistency?
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
Off-side is off-side, no matter if it is 1mm or 1 meter.
if you think 1mm is not off-side, when does it become off-side? 2 mm? 3 mm? 10mm? 40 cm? 40 meters?
His knee? If he scores with his knee what will you do? Disallow the goal because he scored with his knee? No? Then in this instance it is off-side.
Off-side is like being pregnant. You can’t be marginally pregnant, you can’t be marginally off-side. You are either off-side or not.
Conclusion this was off-side even against the cowardly Mourinho team Spurs that everybody hates since José is their manager...even if it is not fair that Son or Kane are this good...
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
UK
Tranmere Rovers
Off-side is off-side, no matter if it is 1mm or 1 meter.
if you think 1mm is not off-side, when does it become off-side? 2 mm? 3 mm? 10mm? 40 cm? 40 meters?
His knee? If he scores with his knee what will you do? Disallow the goal because he scored with his knee? No? Then in this instance it is off-side.
Off-side is like being pregnant. You can’t be marginally pregnant, you can’t be marginally off-side. You are either off-side or not.
Spoken like Mourinho himself! :D I mean that in the nicest possible way Stan, no disrespect.

I get your point here. You are right, of course - offside is black-and-white. But the issue is, the TECHNOLOGY isn't.

How do you know the exact moment when the ball is made contact with (to pause the footage)? You don't. Not without installing a device in the balls and boots.

You've also got cameras recording at a frames-per-second rate that can't keep up with the speed a ball can travel. The ball jumps between frames, so there is error.

How do you draw the lines in the pixel-perfect correct position each time? You can't, and the "margin of error" (relating to all the above) is larger than some of the offside distances being called (hate to use the Daily Mail as a source for anything, but, this sums it up pretty well).

So how can you then apply to all of that, "offside is offside"? Because the lead-up to it isn't perfect, the decision can't be.

Hence why my belief personally (and I've said this in here before) is that the spirit of "clear and obvious" needs to apply to everything. Not just for offsides but for the sake of what VAR is doing to the game - taking 2-5 minutes of line-drawing and scrutiny, making referees change their decisions based on very little actual evidence, and pulling all joy out of what is supposed to be a game, big-business or otherwise.

So I'm of the mind that offisde decisions should involve the best freeze-frame possible and then it should go to a "naked eye" decision (get the linesman involved, even - get them over to the pitchside monitor). Then you're using two imperfect, but at least human, decisions, and if it's clear and obviously offside, justice will be done. If it's not, then IMO, justice will still be done because a goal will stand that was too tight to call without drawing lines, and judging on manager AND player interviews over the last few months, I think everybody in the game would prefer that (even the defenders).

Conclusion this was off-side even against the cowardly Mourinho team Spurs that everybody hates since José is their manager...even if it is not fair that Son or Kane are this good...
I don't think everybody hates Spurs, or Mourinho. I think you might think that because of my comments on here (which I stand by) - that's just me, nobody else.
 

mattmid

International
15 December 2011
One of the problems with VAR in my opinion is the inconsistencies. Sane shoots, it goes in. Linesman didn't put his flag up. Check the replay, he was offside, goal is disallowed. Same situation, Sane shoots, it's saved for a corner. TV shows the replay before the corner and you see Sane was clearly offside. Corner is taken and a goal is scored.

So if it goes in first time, it's offside. If it gets saved and they score from the corner they shouldn't have had it's a goal. There's no recourse to review it.

Now of course you can't be endlessly reviewing everything, it's bad enough as it is but if it's supposed to be correcting game changing errors then how are those above not in that category? In which case what's the point of correcting some errors and not others?


@Stan I think you are in danger of adopting the Mourinho siege mentality of everyone hates us. :) If the offside had been the other way around I'd have thought exactly the same. As you rightly said if it's offside, it's offside, but as @Chris Davies and I pointed out the vagueness of how accurate the paused picture is and the poor resolution of it and the lines brings the whole thing into doubt when the call is that close.
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
My friends. I don.t blame either of you personal. Of course i’m biased because I’m a Spurs fan.
Clear and obvious error? That is way too subjective. What is clear and obvious for you? I can assure you that the same thing that is clear and obvious for one person will not be clear and obvious for another.
People blame VAR, but they should blame the rules. Both the hands ball rule and the off-side rule are absurd. I will not get in the hands ball rule, because one write a book over that one. As for the off-side rule, what should happen is look at the players’s feet. Are his feet off-side (and no matter how marginal) then the player is off-side. I realize that this would mean that Brentford’s goal should count, well so be it. The only difference is that the rule should change. It is absurd but under the current rules Brentford’s equalizer was correctly disallowed.

About the siege mentality. As a Spurs fan, I hate to see my team play. We could have crushed Arsenal, yet we cowardly parked the bus. Against Liverpool, Crystal Palace and Wolverhampton we refused to attack and we lost points with late goals. At the moment Mourinho costs us points, he should be sacked imo. But it is remarkable how negative Spurs is judged since Mourinho is their manager. Under Pocchetino they were everybody’s second team ( the way Neville for example was a big fan of Spurs amazed me enormously and that is only one example).

My post was cynic or sarcastic or both, but it wasn’t directed at both of you. I know I gave that impression and I apologize for it. After all, it’s only football. Take care and stay healthy, my friends.
 

mattmid

International
15 December 2011
Now I'll put in the disclaimer that I only saw highlights put up by BT Sports on youtube and only saw it once but how on earth was that a penalty for Man Utd last night? With VAR as well?
 
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