The Retro-PES Corner

I don't like it too and don't know anyone who does, in general im for video assistance but I had a different approach in mind and was against their implementation, it cannot work like this.

It only adds more room for error (humans) and undermindes the main ref., just doesnt make sense.
I'd remove all the tail that is backing the current system, back to how it was with the refs on the pitch, and the team captain has lets say 2 vetos per half, the main ref then goes to the monitor and decides.
I get the counter point to this, that if a team has no veto left and some mistake happens nothing can be done, but so be it, even adds a certain level to the game, atleast we get the flow back.
 
The thing is there are so many other factors that are ignored. What if the ball goes out for a corner but it actually wasn't? The team score from the corner and it's given. But it's just as much a wrong decision for the corner because it resulted in a goal being scored because of an incorrect decision than it is for an offside or a foul.


@cosmo, If it HAS to be in football, which let's face, like it or not, it's here to stay now. Then that's exactly the way I think it should be done, just like in tennis. They have say two appeals per match against a decision. That way it is limited to a maximum of four decisions at most. ONLY the captain can appeal, any other player appeals and it's a booking.

The only good thing coming from it is playing on when the linesman isn't certain about an offside. Although effectively it could be the end of linesmen as well. Just don't give offside and we'll see if was if there's a goal. That would at least add some extra ball in play time to a match if nothing else.
 
mattmid said:
The thing is there are so many other factors that are ignored. What if the ball goes out for a corner but it actually wasn't? The team score from the corner and it's given. But it's just as much a wrong decision for the corner because it resulted in a goal being scored because of an incorrect decision than it is for an offside or a foul.


@cosmo, If it HAS to be in football, which let's face, like it or not, it's here to stay now. Then that's exactly the way I think it should be done, just like in tennis. They have say two appeals per match against a decision. That way it is limited to a maximum of four decisions at most. ONLY the captain can appeal, any other player appeals and it's a booking.

The only good thing coming from it is playing on when the linesman isn't certain about an offside. Although effectively it could be the end of linesmen as well. Just don't give offside and we'll see if was if there's a goal. That would at least add some extra ball in play time to a match if nothing else.
Click to expand...

Yeh but the
mattmid said:
The thing is there are so many other factors that are ignored. What if the ball goes out for a corner but it actually wasn't? The team score from the corner and it's given. But it's just as much a wrong decision for the corner because it resulted in a goal being scored because of an incorrect decision than it is for an offside or a foul.


@cosmo, If it HAS to be in football, which let's face, like it or not, it's here to stay now. Then that's exactly the way I think it should be done, just like in tennis. They have say two appeals per match against a decision. That way it is limited to a maximum of four decisions at most. ONLY the captain can appeal, any other player appeals and it's a booking.

The only good thing coming from it is playing on when the linesman isn't certain about an offside. Although effectively it could be the end of linesmen as well. Just don't give offside and we'll see if was if there's a goal. That would at least add some extra ball in play time to a match if nothing else.
Click to expand...

@mattmid , I agree matters mate, that playing the advantage for marginal offsides is a positive. But a bank of telly monitors is not required to do that for offsides and fouls.

PES 3 had an advantage system all of sixteen years ago. The little outstretched arms icon and away goes Dario Silva clear through one-on-one with the keeper.

GOooooooaaaaaaaalllllllllllll......

(A nod to a radio profile of Adriano I listened to yesterday. A Brazilian commentator to an Adriano missile shot from fortyish yards sounded like he was having a double hernia.....ouch).

:OH::OH::OH:

.
 
Last edited:
Brazil v Netherlands. A mouth watering match that surely has potential to be the tie of the round



Brazil look set to play with a 4-4-2 with 2 attacking midfielders.

In goal will probably be Bruno Carcaioli who looks the pick of the three keepers in the squad, none of which particularly stand out as potential match winners. The centre back pairing will very likely be Vitao and Hiago. Both over 6ft and decent in the air. They look like a good pairing and they'll need to be against the Dutch front two, but more on that later.

Wesley and Weverson seem the most likely duo for the full backs, both have something to offer going forward, as you'd expect from a Brazilian team but both can defend as well.


In DM, often a crucial role in a Brazilian team, it will be between Alves and Rodrigo Nestor. Both bring something to the table but Nestor would seem the better option for a tough game like this one. Alongside him at CM will probably be Alan. He's quick, agile, can go past a player and is a very tidy passer of any length. He is strong mentally and will drive the team on from midfield.

The two Attacking midfielders for Brazil could come from as many as 10 players if required. However Reinier will surely be one of them. With pace, great dribbling skill, sharp passing coupled with long range shooting ability he will be a constant thorn in the side of any team. My pick to go alongside him would probably be Antony. With similar skills Brazil would hope at least one of the two will be on song and able to inspire them to victory.

Up the top will be a simple question of who plays alongside Vinicius Jr., the Real Madrid youngster. It might be easier to list what he doesn't bring to the table. Which would probably be to say his passing is not too bad. An eye for goal and the confidence to take it on from any angle, coupled with the ability to get himself into goalscoring position with his dribbling and pace means he will be causing plenty of problems. With strong mentality he won't be going missing if things go wrong for his team either. So just who will play alongside him? Or in his shadow perhaps? There are five candidates of which three are probably genuine one's. There's not much to choose between Lincoln, Vitor Gabriel or Brenner. It might be down to who complements Viniciuds Jr the best.




Netherlands manager Jihado86 van der Football has already named his side.


In a bold move he has gone for an attacking line up that will at the same time hope to swamp midfield with a 2-6-2 formation.


In goal is Schendelaar a very solid keeper and edges out two able deputies.

At CB, or rather in defence, is Fofana and Hendrikx. Both are very quick and that will be vital given they may often be going two against two at the back.

In midfield - who isn't? We'll start with the two wing backs Lathouwers and Seedorf. If the CB's were quick, just watch this pair. Lathouwers in particular can run all day. Depending on how busy they are Seedorf may run out of steam at some stage. At DM is Timan whose perfomance could be absolutely vital. Quick with good dribblings skills and technique he might need both to get out of tight situations.

In central midfield we have Mendonca and Abid. They are both very quick (do you spot a trend here yet?) can both pass adequately and are very nimble with good defensive qualities. There job will be to feed the wingbacks or the three in front of them.

Ilhattaren gets the nod for the AM berth. He's quick, you knew that right? Agile and is quite a decent long passer which might see a few balls over the top in behind Brazil if the opportunity arises.


Up front are Boadu and Zirkzee. Boadu is qui... ah you know what I'm going to say. Has good shot accuray, great mentality and a good attacking brain. The perfect foil for Zirkzee who isn't quick! Not that he's slow, just in this team he'll be last across the line in any training sprints. However he makes up for that in every other way possible. We've seen some quality strikers in this tournament already after just six games. Zirkzee has the potential to be the best of the lot. Pull together an attacking instinct, with quick responses, a bit of dribbling, a dash of technique, a large helping of shooting accuracy. Add in some power and shot technique, a prodigous leap, a knack for scoring, great awareness of beating the offside trap and you get exactly what Zirkzee is all about. Brazil you have been warned.






What an encounter this promises to be! With the Dutch tactics this has to go one of two ways you would think. Either midfield will get so congested that they batter each other and it'll be last man standing or this will be like basketball and we'll see non stop action. With the attacking talent on display this could be an absolute cracker. Roots Hall, Southend won't have seen entertainment like this for a while.
 
Loooool you noticed the "quick" pattern.
To be honest, speed was my first criteria because after all these years with PES, it's the one that makes the difference more than any other stats.
I'm an attack-minded player in PES and since I'm always attacking, no need to have 4 defenders. Let's see how this works out when it's CPU instead of me.
Quick players also helps my kind of suicidal formation, without these quick players I would go for a regular formation.

I can't wait to see how things will occur tomorrow.
 
about VAR - i just don't see any good in it. Hairline offsides shouldn't be called, unless the ref has a clear view. What happened to the "benefit of the doubt goes to the attacking side"? Penalties should be given in real time, not in slow motion replays. Referee mistakes were always part of the game... and somehow people were accepting those as human mistakes. Nobody's perfect, right? Breaking the flow of the game is the worst. And it can lead to bizzare scenarios: Portugal - Switzerland match in UEFA League of Nations semifinal is a good example: going backwards in time from a stonewall penalty, when Bernardo Silva was chopped down in the Swiss box - to a questionable penalty at the other end. Instead of 2:0 we go to 1:1. Good thing that CR7 decided to join in the fun and had a say in the final result. Otherwise, we'd be still talking about that match.

Goal-line technology, on the other hand, is pure gold. I'm all for it. Can we just have that and retire VAR?
 
Last edited:
miguelfcp said:
ukCyLEx.png

First time ever playing ISS Pro 98 and Germany just kicked my ass. It's alright though, I've already spent a few Escudos on ingame currency and bought myself Ziderm and Ronarid, this team is going places.
Click to expand...

What a beautiful game, often lost between the most memorable commentary of all time and the advent of the Master League in the PES canon.
 
@juce Although I get the idea behind it in trying to get decisions right and yes there are sometimes some that are game changing and blatantly wrong at first view, but it's not a game that lends itself to constant stoppages to analyse what went wrong. Also, you lose the whole discussion with friends after leaving a game of whether you should have had a penalty, was their goal offside and so on. Sure it's imperfect but isn't that part of the whole gamut of emotions that supporting a team brings. Fortunately my team aren't in a league that is likely to have VAR for now so it won't be bothering me!

@jihado86 I'm jealous that it's @miguelfcp 's turn to do the game! I can't wait to see how it turns out.
 
mattmid said:
Fortunately my team aren't in a league that is likely to have VAR for now so it won't be bothering me!
Click to expand...
lol... good for you, mate! :) (Watching VAR extravaganza at Women's World Cup and Copa America just makes me sad... no longer angry, but sad and a little bit bitter. As in: "who the f$%# thought it was a good idea in the first place?")
 
juce said:
about VAR - i just don't see any good in it. Hairline offsides shouldn't be called, unless the ref has a clear view. What happened to the "benefit of the doubt goes to the attacking side"? Penalties should be given in real time, not in slow motion replays. Referee mistakes were always part of the game... and somehow people were accepting those as human mistakes. Nobody's perfect, right? Breaking the flow of the game is the worst. And it can lead to bizzare scenarios: Portugal - Switzerland match in UEFA League of Nations semifinal is a good example: going backwards in time from a stonewall penalty, when Bernardo Silva was chopped down in the Swiss box - to a questionable penalty at the other end. Instead of 2:0 we go to 1:1. Good thing that CR7 decided to join in the fun and had a say in the final result. Otherwise, we'd be still talking about that match.

Goal-line technology, on the other hand, is pure gold. I'm all for it. Can we just have that and retire VAR?
Click to expand...
Last season ,Spal v Fiorentina,Fiorentina loses the ball in Spals box,Spal counters and scores,wild scenes!
Ref goes to Var ,discovered a soft touch in a Viola player in Spals box,goal disallowed,penalty to Fiorentina,and they score!
So instead of 1-0 it's 0-1.
Don't care how "right" the decision was,still insane!

And germany Vs Nigeria (women's WC). Where the effective playing time between two goals (both went to VAR )13 seconds!
That was between 20th and 27th minute!
13 seconds!
Goal line decision yes!
This...no!
 
It needs improving no doubt, but I wouldn't write off VAR just yet.

Offside is a black and white decision, there is no benefit of doubt towards the attackers because there is no doubt to be had. These decisions sometimes take too long to be given (biggest problem with VAR imo) but at least it will get it right.

Penalties is a lot more tricky. VAR gets a lot of hate in this area but really its down to the law and a lot of ambiguity around the handball rule. Even when the ambiguity was reduced, many people find the current laws too strict. But this is to do with the laws of the game, not VAR itself. I actually think for penalty checks the decision should be made by the VAR officials, they'll get to see it more times than the ref, and they are qualified refs anyway so what is the problem? Having the ref run over to a tv screen just to see the same reply as the other officials time and time again just takes way too long.

Also worth remembering that VAR isn't just about giving penalties. Last year in the World Cup a really poor Neymar dive was given as a penalty but this was overturned. Have been many other games decided wrongly by diving.

It was always going to be a bumpy road, but really think VAR can work well if tweaked. Not that I trust FIFA with anything. :D
 
The sad thing is that if players didn't cheat we would only need it for offsides.

Neymar should just be made to wear a Go pro camera at all times then the ref can review everything he does on the field :)
 
I think there's a majority (or more people anyway) who's pro VAR that are TV fans,or casual football watchers,you know "wow it's the champions League " or support a big club not being local,all people I know that are watching football live,and have stood on a terraces cheering,then not cheering ,and eventually cheering again,I'd say that's a no VAR crowd.

If it's down to millimeter justice,then we might pack it in,if VAR continues,it needs to be more fluid and only in certain situations,and it needs to be done without disrupting the game..

I'm pretty sure if it continues the way we've seen in France (WC) it's a travesty,refs and assistant refs are hardly needed,orders are "wait until sure or on our signal on offsides"
I think we've all seen very late offside calls that are a clear cut offside,but held back,even a couple off times the Def has tackled the offensive players and causing injury risks.

This system has been in effect for what,2-3 seasons now?
And it's even worse now then at the start
And I honestly believe if it's here to stay and as screwed up as it is now, effective time is the next step,2x30 or 2x35 min games.
Then the next step is power breaks etc.
Obviously my personal opinion,and not convincing anyone on my view on it,just a gathering of thoughts
 
peterc10 said:
I actually think for penalty checks the decision should be made by the VAR officials, they'll get to see it more times than the ref, and they are qualified refs anyway so what is the problem?
Click to expand...
I have a problem with these qualified refs reviewing penalty decisions in slow motion replays, because defenders don’t play in slow motion. Defenders don’t have an option to rewind, look at their arm positions, and say: hmm, maybe i should put my left arm even further behind my back, to make it look certain that i didn’t intend the ball to hit my elbow. The referee sees everythin in real time too, and (if he is properly positioned) should be able to a make a judgement call on whether it’s a penalty, or not. If the referee cannot make a decision here and then, from what he actually saw, then what is he doing on the field anyway? Same goes with diving vs going down in the box because of contact. Anybody who played himself (on any sort of level, really) knows that it doesn’t take much contact to lose balance if you are running at high speed in the box. Reviewing it in slow motion completely changes the perception of what had happened. Referees should trust what they saw in real time, or why have referee at all? Have everything reviewed frame by frame from 16 different camera angles instead...
 
I'd be happy without it honestly, as we've come to a point in which the referee on the pitch is rendered almost useless. Like "I'm just here to ask you to wait, my colleagues are taking care of this and will let me know as soon as possible".

On the other hand, it could be useful if one of the teams really thought the ref had taken a bad bad decision.
It shouldn't be automatic IMHO, it should be on request like in volleyball.

Each team has 2x calls per match ans they could "call" a VAR check whenever they want (of course stating the reason they call it for: for example if I'm an attacker, I get tackled down in the box but I manage to shoot and my shot hits the arm of a defender with the ref not giving the penalty, my team could ask for a VAR review but should specify whether they'd want the tackle or he handball reviewed: this would prevent teams from calling VAR! VAR!!! with no reason, hoping to get it right).
If the video review shows that the team requesting the VAR check was right, the decision is changed and the team gets its "call a check" bonus back.
If the review shows that the ref was right, the team loses one of the two chances to call for a check.

It works pretty much like this in volleyball and it's pretty effective.
 
I agree with Ale. The 2x call would be a good solution. I'd personally let go 99% of the stuff that not even the people on field see (maybe I'd save the autonomous checks for handfouls that avoid certain goals or heavy similar unseen stuff).

But for example- yes, "hairline" offside calls are painful to watch and I don't think that's the reason VAR was there in the first place at all. VAR needs to be saved for true 100% wrong stuff, not for 50/50 episodes that were fine on full speed or for things so thin in principle as a 5 cm offside. Imho.
 
I agree with Ale x2. All VAR check must be requested by player or manager for 2 times only, just like volleyball or tennis.
 
They have a similar system in the NHL ,dont know if it's restricted to just twice though
Get it wrong (it's called coach's challenge) and your team gets penalised (two min).
 
rockstrongo said:
Last season ,Spal v Fiorentina,Fiorentina loses the ball in Spals box,Spal counters and scores,wild scenes!
Ref goes to Var ,discovered a soft touch in a Viola player in Spals box,goal disallowed,penalty to Fiorentina,and they score!
So instead of 1-0 it's 0-1.
Don't care how "right" the decision was,still insane!

And germany Vs Nigeria (women's WC). Where the effective playing time between two goals (both went to VAR )13 seconds!
That was between 20th and 27th minute!
13 seconds!
Goal line decision yes!
This...no!
Click to expand...

And to add to the Women's World Cup VAR madness @rockstrongo , England vs Cameroon was even more disgraceful. The decisions that went against Cameroon would infuriate any team.

But guess what ? The English media did the full "uncivilized colonies" routine with Phil Neville of all people weighing in with false outrage.

He and his mouthy brother and other Man Utd thugs used to intimidate and bully every referee they came across.

The Dinner is fully wound up. Sorry matters mate......

COME ON NORWAY......:BOUNCE::BOUNCE::BOUNCE:
 
WhoAteMeDinner said:
And to add to the Women's World Cup VAR madness @rockstrongo , England vs Cameroon was even more disgraceful. The decisions that went against Cameroon would infuriate any team.

But guess what ? The English media did the full "uncivilized colonies" routine with Phil Neville of all people weighing in with false outrage.

He and his mouthy brother and other Man Utd thugs used to intimidate and bully every referee they came across.

The Dinner is fully wound up. Sorry matters mate......

COME ON NORWAY......:BOUNCE::BOUNCE::BOUNCE:
Click to expand...
Yeah,i forgot that one,saw some reactions on twitter "I had to call my husband and tell him to turn off the TV so my children wouldn't see that barbaric behaviour" from Mrs very offended white British lady.

Yeah,not warm on Norway,but go tall blonde neighbors!
 
rockstrongo said:
Yeah,i forgot that one,saw some reactions on twitter "I had to call my husband and tell him to turn off the TV so my children wouldn't see that barbaric behaviour" from Mrs very offended white British lady.

Yeah,not warm on Norway,but go tall blonde neighbors!
Click to expand...

Lol @rockstrongo , dude, the lack of self-awareness of some very privileged white people is almost absurd and funny. But also deeply offensive to developing countries in Africa and elsewhere.

Remember we once called it the third world and yet some forget that women footballers have none of the support, training and facilities in Africa that are taken for granted here in Europe.

A certain poodle-haired German player once spat at Frank Rijkaard. And the use of an odd elbow in most men's professional games is frankly routine.

Guess you get an outrage pass if you are white and blonde.

:TD::TD::TD:
 
WhoAteMeDinner said:
Lol @rockstrongo , dude, the lack of self-awareness of some very privileged white people is almost absurd and funny. But also deeply offensive to developing countries in Africa and elsewhere.

Remember we once called it the third world and yet some forget that women footballers have none of the support, training and facilities in Africa that are taken for granted here in Europe.

A certain poodle-haired German player once spat at Frank Rijkaard. And the use of an odd elbow in most men's professional games is frankly routine.

Guess you get an outrage pass if you are white and blonde.

:TD::TD::TD:
Click to expand...
True!
 
du0 said:
Which one of you guys is this guy?
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/...o-data-editor-the-analyst-who-sets-the-stats/
Click to expand...

If he's not one of us then he really should be here in the retro thread! Hopefully the article is true regarding Konami and they are beginning to realise they need to sort out the offline side of the game and get back to concentrating more on that.


@WhoAteMeDinner

Can't really argue with that apart from the spitting, think that's disgusting as it was when in that Germany v Holland game. No need for it at all.

I've not really seen any of the women's world cup bar a bit of highlights here and there. I'd imagine France or USA would win it from what I have seen.

As to the comments from Neville, I'm sure they could find some old clips to show him :)



rockstrongo said:
Yeah,i forgot that one,saw some reactions on twitter "I had to call my husband and tell him to turn off the TV so my children wouldn't see that barbaric behaviour" from Mrs very offended white British lady.

Yeah,not warm on Norway,but go tall blonde neighbors!
Click to expand...


Seriously? :LOL: They sound like the sort of people we have now who get offended on other people's behalf. The sort that will say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas in case they offend another religion (who actually aren't in the least bit bothered about it!). Or the one's who go on twitter to complain in absolute outrage that a shop doesn't have a blue sweater for their little girl. So go shop somewhere else then.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom