The Retro-PES Corner

[Marlon Anthony]

@MafiaMurderBag That's interesting about stats and how there seems to be so much player individuality in the older PES games. How is passing stats and traits different than the newer PES games?

Well, the short answer is that it's algorithm based. On the older games you could only aim your pass in 8 directions on the controller, even with the analog stick. Not to mention on PES 4 onwards, outside of holding the the pass button down to reach a further away target, it was very rudimentary and there is no input on passing power or speed.

That's where the stats come in. It was a combination of the stats of the player calculating how fast, accurate and smooth a pass would be as well as the context of your players body position, their momentum and situation. That's where the stats "mentality" (and i think it was "response") would come in too, determining how composed a player would be and if they could pass while being pressed by a defender or under any other urgent circumstance.

So in the example of passing, that's where all these variables would combine to give the player the illusion that the game was as diverse and hence the individuality. It's because of this you felt like there was a difference between Pirlo and Gattuso. Why one felt more like an elegant passer when you needed it and why the other felt like a reliable pit-bull when out of possession. Konami did well to disguise the limitations of what's really an engine that limits your passing to certain directions and the fact the ball physics aren't literally free & individual.

Once the technology improved it kind of became less about player algorithm and more about the actual human players skill with a controller. Don't get me wrong stats still have their role in modern games but i think it's also more of an issue of game design that players weaknesses aren't really felt particularly well in modern games.

 

[cosmo]

Was not happy with PES4 either, after WE9LE, the midfield is a bit open and regarding R2 and some other controls its mainly as PES3 which for me nowadays (due to comfort and ease of play etc) is not an option, I always played PES with analog stick too thats another issue with 3 and to some degree 4, and 6 is too scripted so the classics are definately a thing of the past for me now.

14 and on I have no attraction to, 12 and 13 I already gone back to last year and didnt like it, 11 was too easy to keep poss. and the passing too, 8 just look goofy so it was between 09 and 10, the latter looked a bit more refined in the animation department so I took that, not to mention the player card system and the better ML.

What I like so far after two matches:

- grafix are nice, lightning and the pitch are superb, probably still top end for the series
- music is good
- trap sound of the ball and such pitch sounds are nice
- manual pass on Rstick no need to press down
- tight midfield
- team and player ID again probably still unmatched
- the 90° turn on players with low dribble is really slow, the difference to better players is really nice
- through balls are good, PES 4 style, mostly no need for super cancel the forward into the run or any of that, unlike PES5 where most through balls plainly su ck and go not even the same lane that you want, or PES6 where you need all those more defined controls all the time, just tiring after some time
- lobs similar to PES4 too which i like
- weight of the ball and players really felt
- one really feels the foot-planting, not much sliding and skating compared to sluggish skate fest games such as especially PES2012 and 13 (or Fifa ), not sure on PES2014 and beyond on that, 2015 and 2018 which I played the full versions of are alright, not great not bad in that regard

bad:
- the hangy nets
- more fouls here and there would be nice, but its alright unlike newer games

on the reaction time someone mentioned earlier on this game, if one moves the stick slightly to see the reaction time its pretty good, its when you do more of a turn and advanced movement its felt, so its in fact not the reaction time but the animation speed, i like it, you need to think in advance a bit what you do
if you need it faster turn of vsync in the settings and in gpu driver set pre rendered frames (flip size queue AMD) to 1, its solid.

Will experiment with the diff. level and match time, maybe speeder with kitserver, then find a patch and start a ML!

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@MafiaMurderBag , very interesting and detailed explainer of the changed gameplay and passing algorithms in modern PES games.

It sounds to me like the difference between active and passive game code. The old PES games had a gameplay set-up that was passive or neutral in general terms and player controller inputs made little difference either. The whole game was dependent on the active elements of player stats and abilities. It was like the pitch was a blank slate that individual players could do anything on, based on their skills.

How exactly did Konami think buggering that up was a good idea ?

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

After a Europa League final in a two-thirds full stadium in central Asia, with all the atmosphere of a dead pre-season game in the far East. UEFA are treating us to a "Champions League" final held in June and involving two clubs that have not been league champions in their country since 1990 and 1963. I guess football federations and unions don't come under misleading advertising laws and regulations.

Here is a pile of horse sh*t and they call it a gourmet feast......

 

[Special4988]

@MafiaMurderBag That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the write up. I remember when I went through a phase playing fifa where I went to all "manual" settings, so nothing assisted. At first it felt fun and enjoyable, because it felt like it was all my skill. But eventually I realized that I played these games so I could experience the skill of each player, (with my input) and classic PES nails this. It just feels right. It's true, you do really feel a difference between Pirlo and Gattuso passing the ball.

 

[mattmid]

@Special4988 This is what I don't understand about the modern games. What's the point of playing on manual settings really? The whole point is for each player to be as individual as possible, why remove that by having it all rest on how good you are with the controls? That was the beauty of the retro games. You're in a good position to play a nice through ball but don't have a great player in your control to do it. You try it anyway and it's over hit, under hit or if you get lucky it might just be that time he pulls it off.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

More noticeable in PES than FIFA, although both games are afflicted by the diminishing importance of attributes.

I've been a three up front man since ISS Pro Evolution 2 (slogging away with Ximenes, Njord and Castello until it became Simo, Hakan Suker and Babangida) and the difference between players was so evident. What was that, about 20 different attributes with a range of 12 to 19? Now with however many attributes from 1 to 99 there's a greater struggle to make a player feel like an individual. Not sure how that can be so but, as stated, the less restricted gameplay will play a role.

In my 2019 ML, there's nothing remarkable about any of the default players, who are all too good to begin with. I think pace is the main thing. You can't seem to get a slow player in the newer games. Where's Vorlander when you need him?

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

More noticeable in PES than FIFA, although both games are afflicted by the diminishing importance of attributes.

I've been a three up front man since ISS Pro Evolution 2 (slogging away with Ximenes, Njord and Castello until it became Simo, Hakan Suker and Babangida) and the difference between players was so evident. What was that, about 20 different attributes with a range of 12 to 19? Now with however many attributes from 1 to 99 there's a greater struggle to make a player feel like an individual. Not sure how that can be so but, as stated, the less restricted gameplay will play a role.

In my 2019 ML, there's nothing remarkable about any of the default players, who are all too good to begin with. I think pace is the main thing. You can't seem to get a slow player in the newer games. Where's Vorlander when you need him?

Exactly chessehead, exactly.
@Flipper the Priest , his Vornanderness was the best defender in my squad. Like you and as a PES puritan, I have always played a proper 4 : 3 : 3.
Vornander had a stately presence, you never attempted to get him to beat COM players to a pass, over running being a classic way to concede a soft goal with defenders you had that were quick, and you placed to much confidence in their pace. Vornander would always be the last man and never failed.

 

[miguelfcp]

@WhoAteMeDinner: The "Europa" League and the "Champions" League, the Copa "America" with Qatar and Japan, and even the freaking "Euro"vision Song Contest with Australia and Israel. One of these days we'll all be so brainwashed that people will be calling you "Lunch" instead of "Dinner"

@MafiaMurderBag: Spot on. If you watch any PESLeague/eSports football competition, you see the modern reality of football gaming: it's a contest of skill. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's the devs' vision for the games, but it sure ain't anything like a simulation.
I think many have yet to confront the fact that the more user influence you have on the game, the less realistic that football experience will be. If I have total control over the passing accuracy of a player, then it doesn't matter whether I have a Pirlo or a Gattuso, a Vieira or Iouga. Total control over shooting? Then why spending money on a Lewandowski when you can score as many with every other striker?

Retro-PES games figured out that perfect balance between user input and stats' influence: you're not totally in control, but you're not totally devoid of it either. Your individual skill is rewarded, but only if you respect your players' attributes, their pros and cons, and use it to your advantage.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Exactly chessehead, exactly.
@Flipper the Priest , his Vornanderness was the best defender in my squad. Like you and as a PES puritan, I have always played a proper 4 : 3 : 3.
Vornander had a stately presence, you never attempted to get him to beat COM players to a pass, over running being a classic way to concede a soft goal with defenders you had that were quick, and you placed to much confidence in their pace. Vornander would always be the last man and never failed.

Vorlander on the end of Miranda corners. Mwah. He'd get you 10 a season.

I recall once scoring a goal with him in open play. If I remember correctly it was a long ball and bizarrely bounced over the keeper when someone missed a header. Almost felt happy for him. He's a fake German footballer in a video game FFS.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

@WhoAteMeDinner: The "Europa" League and the "Champions" League, the Copa "America" with Qatar and Japan, and even the freaking "Euro"vision Song Contest with Australia and Israel. One of these days we'll all be so brainwashed that people will be calling you "Lunch" instead of "Dinner"

@MafiaMurderBag: Spot on. If you watch any PESLeague/eSports football competition, you see the modern reality of football gaming: it's a contest of skill. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's the devs' vision for the games, but it sure ain't anything like a simulation.
I think many have yet to confront the fact that the more user influence you have on the game, the less realistic that football experience will be. If I have total control over the passing accuracy of a player, then it doesn't matter whether I have a Pirlo or a Gattuso, a Vieira or Iouga. Total control over shooting? Then why spending money on a Lewandowski when you can score as many with every other striker?

Retro-PES games figured out that perfect balance between user input and stats' influence: you're not totally in control, but you're not totally devoid of it either. Your individual skill is rewarded, but only if you respect your players' attributes, their pros and cons, and use it to your advantage.

While we're on modern football gripes: the 'big five' leagues.

European Trophies:

Aberdeen 2-2 French Football

But hey, that Neymar eh? [rolls eyes]

 

[miguelfcp]

The Retro-PES Goal of the Week is back!

@MafiaMurderBag - l
@mattmid
@miguelfcp - l
@jajabinx35 - lll

Congratulations @jajabiinx35, this week's winner! Here's the (awesome) goal:


As promised, you'll be delivered autographed nude pictures of Espimas via PM. The Goal of the Week sure knows how to give awesome prizes, don't it?

Thanks to everyone who participated, maybe next week will be your week. Thanks to the voters as well.

///////

 

[Hoshii]

Well i'm not comming back 4 real but... i beat the shit out of that fucking game

Today i finished my 4'th season in ML (PES 6) and i got the Triple, no lost game in the League: 26 wins, 4 draws (i only lost 1 game in champions league, second leg) - everything done in 100% no "do-overs" - it was do or die till the end.

But there is a trick on how to play this game - so that it actually makes fun....smh nobody told me 'bout ...

First you have to get all the best players into your team - the ones with best potencial who develop great and keep them, for example like:

Barneta
Fabregas
Raphael Sobis
Park Chu Young
Mutu (.....praise this Legend! Salute!)
Aissati
Gomes (Keeper)
Carini (Keeper)
etc...

Then after a while the stats on them will grow and the game stops pissing at your leg all the freaking time... Forget "League" or "Cup" mode or any of that shit - this game just works in Master League, that's where it's at. It was a journey, and fuck i didn't give up! Also life besides was more then hard at times but i didn't give up there as well. Fuck you! FUCK YOU!
......

Thanks for reading! Take care and may you learn to recognize lifes pain for what it is - a universal mechanism for personal/spiritual growth.

Bye

 

[mattmid]

Retro-PES games figured out that perfect balance between user input and stats' influence: you're not totally in control, but you're not totally devoid of it either. Your individual skill is rewarded, but only if you respect your players' attributes, their pros and cons, and use it to your advantage.

To sum it up - You're in charge of the decision, they're in charge of carrying it out.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Vorlander on the end of Miranda corners. Mwah. He'd get you 10 a season.

I recall once scoring a goal with him in open play. If I remember correctly it was a long ball and bizarrely bounced over the keeper when someone missed a header. Almost felt happy for him. He's a fake German footballer in a video game FFS.

Well to me Vornander is more real than the likes of Pogba, Neymar or Ozil, who do not even try to act like professional footballers.

 

[miguelfcp]

@Hoshii: Congratulations, and hope you're doing well IRL mate.

 

[mattmid]

Well to me Vornander is more real than the likes of Pogba, Neymar or Ozil, who do not even try to act like professional footballers.

I was thinking as regards the ML defaults and who their 'real' player might have been. Given he was in the game before this player made his real debut perhaps it was the other way around with life impersonating PES and Mertesacker was a real life copy of Vornander. The height, the lack of pace...

I was thinking on wednesday night after that game - does Ozil not feel at all embarrassed by a performance like that? Well and all season really. He gets paid £350k a week FFS. We know the money is obscene but at least with the likes of a Messi or Ronaldo you get the best of what a footballer can offer on a consistent basis.

 

[slamsoze]

RIP J. A. Reyes. Didn't have the mentality and concentration to achieve the career according to his talent, but in the years after his decline , he became more mature as a player.
He was a very big contribute in my first MLs in pes4/5. Good bye fella.
Sorry for the off-topic, he and Di Tomasso, were of the rare ocassion players, i got close due only to PES and i was shocked when i informed their deaths.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/jose-antonio-reyes/profil/spieler/7717

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

I was thinking as regards the ML defaults and who their 'real' player might have been. Given he was in the game before this player made his real debut perhaps it was the other way around with life impersonating PES and Mertesacker was a real life copy of Vornander. The height, the lack of pace...

I was thinking on wednesday night after that game - does Ozil not feel at all embarrassed by a performance like that? Well and all season really. He gets paid £350k a week FFS. We know the money is obscene but at least with the likes of a Messi or Ronaldo you get the best of what a footballer can offer on a consistent basis.

@mattmid , well matters mate, as ever we are in similar thoughts. What with our discussion before about the PES 2 fictional player: Bogota, that we eventually worked out was loosely based on a much smaller real world player called Lima. Then Mertesacker does look remarkably similar to Vornander, both tall, good in the air, a tad slow and graceful in their movement.

Another one I thought of was Espinas being modelled on Emmanuel Petit, the blonde locks, dynamic and forceful midfield presence, and an eye for goal.

Only thing missing was that Espinas was a much better player.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

RIP Jose Antonio Reyes. Nice post as always @slamsoze , mate.

What is it about footballers and fast cars ? My all-time favourite real life player in PES was Dario Silva, the Uruguayan striker had a leg amputated in 2006 after a car accident.

Amazed big clubs do not insist all the extremely valuable players in their squads have drivers and demand that they not drive Lamborghinis or Ferraris on their days off.

Didn't Ronaldo write off a sportscar a few years ago too ?

 

[Marlon Anthony]

How exactly did Konami think buggering that up was a good idea ?

It's because they gave into the pressure of modernising the game in order to play catch up with FIFA. Between PES 2008-2010, The game was ridiculed for being archaic in terms of the mechanics i previously mentioned.

Just so happens that, like i said, Those archaic controls actually complimented the game and made PES well, PES. 2011 onwards and even into present day PES, that strong sense of individuality is absent. Some players are just a bit faster and have slightly better shot power and accuracy but that's about it now.

So to summarise, they buggered it up due to consumer pressure.

After a Europa League final in a two-thirds full stadium in central Asia, with all the atmosphere of a dead pre-season game in the far East. UEFA are treating us to a "Champions League" final held in June and involving two clubs that have not been league champions in their country since 1990 and 1963. I guess football federations and unions don't come under misleading advertising laws and regulations.

Here is a pile of horse sh*t and they call it a gourmet feast......

Just you wait until they expand the Champions League finals to 48 teams. If they're doing it to that fucking gumball worldcup in 2026 then i can guarantee it won't be long before UEFA start interfering with the Champions League like they did the Euro's in our lifetime.

@MafiaMurderBag That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the write up. I remember when I went through a phase playing fifa where I went to all "manual" settings, so nothing assisted. At first it felt fun and enjoyable, because it felt like it was all my skill. But eventually I realized that I played these games so I could experience the skill of each player, (with my input) and classic PES nails this. It just feels right. It's true, you do really feel a difference between Pirlo and Gattuso passing the ball.

Exactly. I don't have anything against assisted controls either, I just wish there was still some passing error and room for the users skill like there used to be.

Like @miguelfcp said, the direction they're going in is Call of Duty soccer. It's no longer a "Football Game", It's a GAME that happens to be inspired by the sport of football. It ain't really Gran Turismo soccer anymore and i think PES 2014 was the last time Konami really respected the sport and wanted to faithfully recreate the real world intricacies and nuances of football. Like i said to @WhoAteMeDinner fan backlash soon squashed that silly idea too.

You watch how a lot of these Youtubers and E-sports guys play the game now and even those FIFA goal of the weeks that EA runs, The "best goals" are those that involve one player, chaining skills from one end of the pitch to the other, making the opposition defence look like retired bitches and scoring without fatiguing in the slightest and everybody wants to do the same. I call it Ninja football.

The issue is also that the skill gap has lessened with these games now. Anybody can pick up the controller and just score crazy goals. The Street Fighter games underwent a similar change in direction, The complaint being that there's no learning curve to the game anymore really. And i do get it, Some people have less time to be punished for not learning the game else they'd just move onto another product, Some people wanna come home after getting their arse kicked at work and don't need the stress of Dark Souls football, I get all that but i do think it could be a lot better balanced, because hell, it bloody well used to be and everybody applauded these games, especially PES 5.

Which brings me to my next point. Just to get you in the mood for tonight's Premier League consolation in the corporate playground of Madrids brand new template stadium... We go back to a simpler time in European Football when rouge businessmen pumping money into a club and paying 2 win was a relativity new trend.

It's The PES 5 Champions League Final 2006 - Porto v Chelsea!

Porto reach their 2nd final in 2 years, against all odds once again. This time they face their former coach Jose Mourinho who is keen to take Chelsea to their first European Championship the same way he did with his opponents. It's an all Blue final in Paris!

[/user]

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@MafiaMurderBag , funnily enough pal, you won't be surprised that the Dinner (or soon to be called the Lunch as the way things are collapsing as said by miggy), has not done any of the following.......

1. Played FIFA
2. Played Called of Duty or any other ultra-violent FPS.
3. Been told by some eight-year-old little brat in an online game to do something anatomically impossible to myself.

 

[MadbaLL]

truly shocked to hear about jose anotio reyes

RIP, but he will live forever in our retro pes games

 

[Madmac79]

truly shocked to hear about jose anotio reyes

RIP, but he will live forever in our retro pes games

Yeah, incredibly sad to hear. He's one of the players I remember the most from Pes 5.. I've even bought him more than once for my own MLs. It's maybe stupid to say, but that's a way to make a connection as well, I guess.

Class 1983.. damn .

 

[loco]

Truly sad. May god rest his soul and his cousin's.

 

[Marlon Anthony]

Yeah I was only playing as him a couple of weeks ago in PES 5. It's something else I hold dear about Retro PES... I don't just play these games because they are good games, I play them because they're time capsules.

I boot the game up & I'm a kid again, in the presence of the squads & players I grew up watching. The sport has changed & we have an entirely new generation of players & I don't have the time to study the players from around the world like I used to, but in these ancient encyclopedias of Football, These players are immortalised in software.

They don't age & I don't have to dread the passing of time. Reyes truly will live forever in PES. In a team where most will have the fondest memories of him, in one of the best ever Arsenal sides.

 

[mattmid]

What is it about footballers and fast cars ? My all-time favourite real life player in PES was Dario Silva, the Uruguayan striker had a leg amputated in 2006 after a car accident.

Very sad to hear about Jose Reyes, I remember him well in that Arsenal season in particular.

Dario Silva played for us and to be truthful I was quite disappointed with him 'live' as it were, after seeing him as quite a livewire in PES. He was a livewire on the pitch, just not that good really, at least not at that time and for us anyway. That happened a couple of years after he left us if I recall correctly.

Because I didn't get into PES until it reached the PC, that was probably one of the first times we signed a player who I mainly knew from PES. Now had it been a few years earlier when we had Prosinecki for a magical season that I'll remember for ever... (can you imagine him playing in the championship with the likes of Kevin Harper and Courtney Pitt (who you'll say?) He also played with a certain 19yr old striker called Peter Crouch and set up just about all his 19 goals that season Anyway I better stop thinking about him as I'll need to get a tissue

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@mattmid , In fairness, matters mate, just looked up Dario Silva's career stats and he definitely was a vastly better player in PES land than with Pompey or Uruguay and he was well into his thirties when he joined Portsmouth.

One of those PES versions of players that are nothing like the real thing, rather being far superior in every sense on the PES pitch.

I can recall Dario Silva scoring a goal a game in PES 3 ML campaigns at top difficulty levels season after season. He was lightning quick, great in the air and his reaction ability was amazing in the box.

I always thought players like Nedved and even Roberto Baggio were better in PES in many aspects too.

 

[mattmid]

Well that was possibly the worst final I've seen in many a year

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Well that was possibly the worst final I've seen in many a year

@mattmid , the Dinner did not watch it.