Flaw3d Genius
Banned
here we go again on wenb
next game will be
mark these words
I called it right...
The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread
- Thread starter priskinsprick
- Start date
I called it right...
Pere Ubu
Championship
- 29 October 2002
I'm not usually one to defend Adam or WENB (tbh I don't have very high opinions of either, although for what it's worth I think Alan's basically a good guy), but you can't really blame them for hyping this latest game up a bit in the summer. Remember they'd have been playing early code which most likely wouldn't have had many of the annoyances we found in the retail version. I seem to remember they were saying "it's a great game, but the goalies need work desperately." 75% of the major flaws in the final version are to do with protecting the goalkeepers, and they weren't to know Konami would fail at fixing the keepers and end up taking those awful shortcuts - which half-killed the game they were playing at the time. I think I'd have been pretty excited by early code of PES12, and I'm certainly not blind to the horrible faults in the finished game, even though I do still enjoy it.
Konami shouldn't need "fan feedback" when it comes to fixing/improving the game, anyway. It should be blatantly obvious what needs doing. They know perfectly well where they took shortcuts with the game mechanics, and where they failed to perfect certain things, so they should know perfectly well that these are the areas which need looking at. I don't think some 13 year old from Barnsley saying "goalkeepers MUST be better!!!!11!!1!1111!" is going to rock their world.
The one area where they need a kick up the arse is the whole arcade/simulation thing. Seems they're scared to put out a game which doesn't involve cheap goals, superheroic dribbles, superfast gameplay, scripted comebacks, nonexistent midfield and brain-dead defenders making it high-scoring and "exciting", etc. I'm not convinced that stuff is the result of design problems, or lack of time due to the tsunami. I think they want the game to be a bit like that - they think it's a good "balance" to the more technical simulation elements. Well, first of all that's just wrong - it's not a good balance, it mixes about as well as curry powder and milk - and secondly, it shows how out of touch they are with the mood of football gamers in the west. No one wants a game like that anymore. They want something that looks, feels and plays like football.
Konami are (still) so good at nailing certain aspects of football, and in many ways PES is (still) a better "simulation" than its competitor. It's this half-baked "wow moment" junk which ruins it, and that's the main thing PES players and ex-PES players need to get across to them. I've got more faith in Konami's capabilities of creating a decent football game than I have in EA's, but I don't have so much faith in their will to do it before it's too late.
Konami shouldn't need "fan feedback" when it comes to fixing/improving the game, anyway. It should be blatantly obvious what needs doing. They know perfectly well where they took shortcuts with the game mechanics, and where they failed to perfect certain things, so they should know perfectly well that these are the areas which need looking at. I don't think some 13 year old from Barnsley saying "goalkeepers MUST be better!!!!11!!1!1111!" is going to rock their world.
The one area where they need a kick up the arse is the whole arcade/simulation thing. Seems they're scared to put out a game which doesn't involve cheap goals, superheroic dribbles, superfast gameplay, scripted comebacks, nonexistent midfield and brain-dead defenders making it high-scoring and "exciting", etc. I'm not convinced that stuff is the result of design problems, or lack of time due to the tsunami. I think they want the game to be a bit like that - they think it's a good "balance" to the more technical simulation elements. Well, first of all that's just wrong - it's not a good balance, it mixes about as well as curry powder and milk - and secondly, it shows how out of touch they are with the mood of football gamers in the west. No one wants a game like that anymore. They want something that looks, feels and plays like football.
Konami are (still) so good at nailing certain aspects of football, and in many ways PES is (still) a better "simulation" than its competitor. It's this half-baked "wow moment" junk which ruins it, and that's the main thing PES players and ex-PES players need to get across to them. I've got more faith in Konami's capabilities of creating a decent football game than I have in EA's, but I don't have so much faith in their will to do it before it's too late.
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CalcioCalabrese
Weekend warrior
Well said mate.
Has anybody on this thread mentioned how saving penalties requires just pressing left or right yet? You don't even need to aim down low, in the middle or up high. A simple left or right aims automatically wherever the ball is going as long as the player attempts to put it somewhere in the corresponding side. I'm not even sure how that one got out of the development stage.
Those issues aside there's no glaring issue with penalties except the difference between hitting it over the bar and rolling it along the floor being about an eighth of a second. It's a bit stupid really. I don't know why Konami don't take a leaf out of Fifa's book, the book that was written in 2008, to assess their penalty situation.
Those issues aside there's no glaring issue with penalties except the difference between hitting it over the bar and rolling it along the floor being about an eighth of a second. It's a bit stupid really. I don't know why Konami don't take a leaf out of Fifa's book, the book that was written in 2008, to assess their penalty situation.
Ern Dog
Championship
- 23 October 2009
That probably happened because a massive amount of people complained about the penalties last year. I liked the system last year but it was something that needed to be learned. I guess when people are used to pointing in anyone of 8 directions and pressing a button doing something a bit more complicated frustrates them. As usual Seabass goes from one extreme to the other.
TanMak
League 1
Haven't really posted on the game as it's really far gone & requires too much effort to save. However I do peruse the thread & there are some who always bring this general term of PES being 'simulation' etc without explaining. Now I appreciate this is a term we all once believed but this was mostly back in the PS2 glory days when we were all 'young' (gaming evolution) & weren't as critical and as weathered as we are now.
So I've been wondering ... those who still claim PES is a simulation, how exactly do you feel it qualifies such award?
I ask because quite frankly I find it has all the hallmarks of a cheap arcade football game if anything.
PES cannot be qualified a sim when you take in a lot of it's characteristics. These are in bullet points but they've been discussed in detail over the years.
- GKs are unrealistically bad
- Tactics & player positioning is inconsistent/abhorrent/unrealistic
- Heavily assisted shooting (basic & hollow & rubbish finesse shooting)
- Basic stamina system (can sprint all day)
- Non-contextual animations (diving header at shin level, top poking a shot when through on goal etc) - clumsy
- Player positioning unrealistic
- Cheap dated penalty system (this is a joke)
- Super powered player agility
- Bursting from 0 - Full speed in milliseconds (explosive power! geez)
- General lack of awareness between ball & players (AI related)
- Poor referee logic
- Diminished player individuality
- Horrendous team & individual AI
- Scripting & Cheating correlated to difficulty (reminds me of the old coin-op difficulty system or NES)
- No Volleys or maybe just the one side shot
- Frequent scissor kicks (pathetic)
- Erratic passing system
- Poor collision system & heavy clipping
- Removal of USER control
- Bad control selection
- Compromise to D-Pad configuration
- Dull presentation (i.e. Commentary, menus, atmosphere - all very open source)
- Ball physics (unrealistic, ball even rolls backwards to player's boot at every touch on the dribbling)
- Catchup logic
- Inconsistent or disregard of player stats (CPU)
- Dumbing down (i.e. cross-field ball , assisted crossing etc)
- Archaic dribbling system (link feints? cumbersome right stick)
- Generally rigid grid based game-play
- New Free-kick player selection
- Digital over analogue controls
- Non-variable player movement (0-stand, 1-jog, 2-sprint)
- Again, animations mostly have no correlation to what is going on. Balls going different direction to animation, awkward movements sandwiched with player clipping. Toe pokes flying 50yards etc etc It's a right mess
There's more I suppose but it's got to a point where I can't think of any fundamental simulation aspects to the game.
For those that still believe PES has any simulation aspects or can appease some of those listed I'd really like to hear how you see this rubble as a simulation.
So I've been wondering ... those who still claim PES is a simulation, how exactly do you feel it qualifies such award?
I ask because quite frankly I find it has all the hallmarks of a cheap arcade football game if anything.
PES cannot be qualified a sim when you take in a lot of it's characteristics. These are in bullet points but they've been discussed in detail over the years.
- GKs are unrealistically bad
- Tactics & player positioning is inconsistent/abhorrent/unrealistic
- Heavily assisted shooting (basic & hollow & rubbish finesse shooting)
- Basic stamina system (can sprint all day)
- Non-contextual animations (diving header at shin level, top poking a shot when through on goal etc) - clumsy
- Player positioning unrealistic
- Cheap dated penalty system (this is a joke)
- Super powered player agility
- Bursting from 0 - Full speed in milliseconds (explosive power! geez)
- General lack of awareness between ball & players (AI related)
- Poor referee logic
- Diminished player individuality
- Horrendous team & individual AI
- Scripting & Cheating correlated to difficulty (reminds me of the old coin-op difficulty system or NES)
- No Volleys or maybe just the one side shot
- Frequent scissor kicks (pathetic)
- Erratic passing system
- Poor collision system & heavy clipping
- Removal of USER control
- Bad control selection
- Compromise to D-Pad configuration
- Dull presentation (i.e. Commentary, menus, atmosphere - all very open source)
- Ball physics (unrealistic, ball even rolls backwards to player's boot at every touch on the dribbling)
- Catchup logic
- Inconsistent or disregard of player stats (CPU)
- Dumbing down (i.e. cross-field ball , assisted crossing etc)
- Archaic dribbling system (link feints? cumbersome right stick)
- Generally rigid grid based game-play
- New Free-kick player selection
- Digital over analogue controls
- Non-variable player movement (0-stand, 1-jog, 2-sprint)
- Again, animations mostly have no correlation to what is going on. Balls going different direction to animation, awkward movements sandwiched with player clipping. Toe pokes flying 50yards etc etc It's a right mess
There's more I suppose but it's got to a point where I can't think of any fundamental simulation aspects to the game.
For those that still believe PES has any simulation aspects or can appease some of those listed I'd really like to hear how you see this rubble as a simulation.
Ern Dog
Championship
- 23 October 2009
Sadly Pere I think you are totally wrong here. Going by the playing styles of the majority of people I have played online and off, I would say this is exactly the way they want their football games to play. I have also played people from communities that have been set up to connect players that want to play in a realistic manner, that play in pretty much the same way!
People wanting a football game that is more sim than arcade are in the minority.
Completely agree mate. For me pes is nowhere near sim. There is no balance to the gameplay, actually throw some hockey sticks in and a puck it could easily be passed off as a game of ice hockey, a poor one! It's pure end to end. It really baffles me given all these probelms it has people can actaully come out say it's a good game!
henrys hand
Premier League
- 2 September 2010
I think he has a deal with Konami that he hypes every PES-game over the moon up to release-day, so that as many people as possible buy the game. Additionally he is supposed to make sure that the forum of his is under control, ie. overly critical people and opinions get banned during the hype-pre-release-phase...
After release (say a month after) he is allowed to express his real impressions of the game and the forum is allowed to be critical, after all those that would buy because of the hype already bought, and being critical of the game after release can be used to generate hype for the next version etc...
Konami gets more buys, and Adam gets early access to information which he can use to hype and which generates more klicks on his website, ie. more money through advertisement...
Exactly, well put! Without rude to Lons, it's a fucking scam mate! I don't know whether Adam is aware of this though!!
great list tanmak. send it to jonh murphy before he gets fired for losing 90% of konami's european customers.
I myself went back to the old time "a game must be fun to play" without overanalasying things. pes 2012 is a dull game in every aspect. i still get more fun from pes 2011 and old school ps2 pes.
I myself went back to the old time "a game must be fun to play" without overanalasying things. pes 2012 is a dull game in every aspect. i still get more fun from pes 2011 and old school ps2 pes.
I'll drink to that! I'm playing pes 5 for a bit of fun. It's great, so much more balanced! Looks abit SHIT at the moment on HD!
And Jon Murphy, he is the worst salesman/mouth piece ever! He sucks at his job! The set up between him and Konami Japan is so fragmented it's untrue!
Lons
AMIGA 1200 HARDCORE FAN!
- 15 December 2007
Don't agree with you because Adam clearly said Pes 2012 is base on Pes 2011. He never said that Pes 2012 is something special. Of course he said about AI improvements but animations, collision system is no near like FIFA. He said it a lot of times on podcasts. Listen him more deep. For me difference between him and here is very simple. In this thread is haters show. What they do for Pes? What? Hate, hate and hate. What makes Adam? He work with Pes, he speak with Jon Murphy, he opened feedback thread etc. He do something. Here everyboody hate. This is a main difference.I listen him a lot and he exactly knows what Pes need. The problem is with KONAMI not Adam. They don't invest in Pes. They don't have concept with Pes. Adam knows what pes fans want. Trust me. What do you think? Adam doesnt't know about animations problem? collision? shooting? passing assit online? Cmon... Seroiusly for me Seabass has more problem with concept in Pes than Adam and WENB. Seabass doesn't know what he want. In one hand he want sim in other arcade. EA with Rutter has one concept of the game and from year to year they make improvements. They know what they want! This is a main difference between KONAMI and EA.
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Flaw3d Genius
Banned
Nonsense after every play test he was saying the game was amazing, he complained about the shooting but was adamant that it would be fixed before release, He then got the game home to his house well before release and he couldnt stop saying how good it was and infact invited tons of people round for them to spread the word how amazing the game was, Oddly now he's claiming he never said the game was good...what a lot of bullshit that comes from that guy.
Suff after play tests kept saying it was the best PES to date, Alan Curdie would wax lyrical about it after the extensive playtest at Adams house and then of course he gives it a 9/10 review for WENB.
You need to be incredibly naive not to see the difference before and after release.
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You seem like a nice chap Lons, so I'm not all being rude to you! Adam has stated many times(podcasts, and general blogging etc) that pes 2012's gameplay is amazing!!! Yeah he said the animations were not up to scratch, but he and many others Alan, suff, and some others who I cannot remember said that the gameplay was the best it's ever been. That is a fact!
AND THEY HAVE DONE THAT EVERY SINGLE YEAR PES 2008 best ever, 2009 classic ps2 best ever gameplay, 2010 feels like the good old days, 2011 Packed his ps2 away, 2012 best ever!
Yeah the only peope who were around his gaff were people who were afilliated with wenb!
Their would have been a sign hanging outside the door, 'if you affliated, you ain't coming in'!!
Yeah they apologied for that one, and next, and the next, and next one after that and so on.
They seem to think it is ok to hype the game up and then change their mind after release. They should just keep their mouths shut! They fail to see this, it just comes across as so narrow minded, failing to see the bigger picture.
Also, Lons the 9/10 may have come from Alan, who is not Adam, but is a true representive of wenb's final score for the game. So in essense, the wenb website believe the game to be a 9/10 believe it or not. If not they should alter it now to a more believable socre of 6/10.
Lons
AMIGA 1200 HARDCORE FAN!
- 15 December 2007
@Stephen
Of course i know what Adam said before release Pes 2008/09/10/11/12 but when you listen him on podcast he is totally opposite what he writes on the board. I believe more people when I listen and see them than writing on internet. In podcast Adam looks for clever person. He speaks about Pes problem very truly. Yes he said Pes 2012 gameplay is best ever but he means A.I. Not whole gameplay. He and Suff said very clearly about probles like: keepers, animations, shooting, not complex collisions. He also said very clearly that Pes 2012 is base on Pes 2011. You know what is a problem? People want SUPERB PES for years but KONAMI can't give us it. You know what i mean? You, i and a lot of people have different mentality and it's not possible to create PES what everyboody like. Everyboody have different opinion. Look what people wrtite about demo. Thousand totally different look.
Of course i know what Adam said before release Pes 2008/09/10/11/12 but when you listen him on podcast he is totally opposite what he writes on the board. I believe more people when I listen and see them than writing on internet. In podcast Adam looks for clever person. He speaks about Pes problem very truly. Yes he said Pes 2012 gameplay is best ever but he means A.I. Not whole gameplay. He and Suff said very clearly about probles like: keepers, animations, shooting, not complex collisions. He also said very clearly that Pes 2012 is base on Pes 2011. You know what is a problem? People want SUPERB PES for years but KONAMI can't give us it. You know what i mean? You, i and a lot of people have different mentality and it's not possible to create PES what everyboody like. Everyboody have different opinion. Look what people wrtite about demo. Thousand totally different look.
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That doesn't account for how much of a dick to people in the forums, which is a big reason why people dislike him.
PES' problem isn't that is isn't able to please everybody whatsoever. PES 6 was a game that didn't adhere to my own taste but i acknowledge that it was a decent game in its own right if you liked the sort of game it was going for. PES 2012 on the other hand is nothing like that. It is far too basic to even be considered as a good game regardless of taste. What does taste even mean anyway? Not having a problem with the on rails gameplay? Ignoring all the key problems because you want to like it, or are you supposing that people actually like the problems that were posted about half way down this page. I'd rather be able to attest for the problems with the game than ignore them and naively accept them even in the grim face of reality. To me that's all taste equates to with PES 2012.
Shikashi
League 1
- 6 November 2009
wut?
What a stupid anwswer! Putting the emphasis onto the consumer.
Shikashi
League 1
- 6 November 2009
What does he mean exactly?
It s strange one really, but I think its kinda saying the tech won't be as good as fifa, but is dependent on the opinion rather than fact if you think its better or worse. Doesn't make much sense to me.
It doesn't fill me with any confidence either.
Shikashi
League 1
- 6 November 2009
Something along the lines of, we're not striving for "realism" per se, but the presentation will be good none the less?
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
No. He's saying it's a matter of opinion, which is fair enough, I suppose.
But like stephen suggests, it's not exactly a statement of confidence. Usually, all you get from the developers is hyperbole, so when they're not saying "our tech will be the best ever", you've got to doubt their confidence in what they think they will achieve in relation to the competition.
But some people are not objective when it comes to comparison. There are those with rose tinted specs for one game or the other, so even if it is clearly worse, there will be those that insist that it is better.
Flaw3d Genius
Banned
Adam has took over from Seabass and is now making PES 2013, or so he thinks.
It is certainly coming across like that - he is a complete tool.
He suggested everyone will be proud of pes 2013 even at this stage. Someone told him to play the final version before he makes statements like that.
Adam came back and told the guy he was basically in a minority and was very rude to him.
This adam guy needs to step aside! He is right twat!!