SPAIN thread

[henrys hand]

Today Spain was better, especially because of Iniesta who basically selfhandedly beat Italy. Iniesta was the one making the perfect dribblings followed by perfect killerpasses that opened up Italy's defense for both of the first goals.

Italy made mistakes though in defense, especially Chiellini was awful today. Prandelli made then the mistake to sub in all three at once forcing Italy to play with 10 for most of the second half, which of course allowed Spain to up their game and add goals.

Italy could have scored though especially in the first half, but Balotelli returned to his bad playing that he showcased before the Germany-match. Balotelli can one day become a dangerous striker, but he needs to become faster and better at dribbling. Whenever he got the ball he had difficulties to hold it and was unable to make good passes and whenever a throughpass was made to him, he was too slow and clunky to make anything out of it.

Pirlo was not so effective today, he seemed tired.

The last two goals of Spain really don't count, they were only due to Italy playing with one less.

Spain won deservedly and they played pretty well, way more direct than in the whole tournament, and that's how Spain should play, direct and enjoyable, not the anti-football-tikitaka-nonesense they usually play.

Congratulations to Spain.

 

[Me!TheRaven]

It´s a wake up call to nations worldwide. Nurture your talent, give them identity, a project. It was, it is,too easy for Spain at the moment.

 

[PIPA23]

I dont think Pirlo was tired tbh, but he was alone as single creator for Italy, Spain once they keept him from making passes basicly won the midfield game...

 

[jihado86]

Alonso killed Pirlo today, but all the credits at the end goes to the one who have skills to dribble ..

 

[Rantboy]

It was a football masterclass. Spain stepped up in the final in such a way. I mean, they played seriously, flawlessly. They meant business. It kinda gives you the impression they were toying around in the other matches and were playing down to 50% of their capacity before reaching the final, and this is frightening!

Congrats to Spain, theres nothing else to say.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Congratulations to Spain

Probably the best national team ever, I don't think your done either, team to beat in Brazil in 2 years time.

 

[Ronaldinho_23]

LOS PUTOS AMOS !!!!!

OEOEOEOEEOEEEEEEEE

 

[Topaz]

Yeah man hattrick yeah. We have done it in style. Thanks Fabregas for the fabulous contribution, Iniesta for the skills, Xavi for the passes, Alba for the crosses, Casillas for the saves and Torres for the goals.

 

[fanolato]

Alonso killed Pirlo today, but all the credits at the end goes to the one who have skills to dribble ..

Xavi killed Pirlo. http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/07/02/spain-4-0-italy-euro-2012-tactics/

 

[bebo]

Congratulations to the Country of Spain and all other supporters abroad! I`ve heard n saw footage of the great Brazil team from the late 50`s 60`s and 1970 ! I`m witnessing the Great era of Spanish football dominating and I will be able to tell my grand children I witness the historical Spanish football who reinvented the training wheel w/ midfielders.

They pass the ball whenever they want and they score w/o 'strikers' .

Such class no egos! No backroom drama !!

 

[Lami]

Congratulations to the Country of Spain and all other supporters abroad! I`ve heard n saw footage of the great Brazil team from the late 50`s 60`s and 1970 ! I`m witnessing the Great era of Spanish football dominating and I will be able to tell my grand children I witness the historical Spanish football who reinvented the training wheel w/ midfielders.

They pass the ball whenever they want and they score w/o 'strikers' .

Such class no egos! No backroom drama !!

United did it first

 

[gerd]

Another boring match by a boring team? Where are all the false prophets now?
Was Spain better than in the other matches? Of course not.

The way Spain played yesterday was a tribute to this Italy team. Spain in this tournament was all about control. I've been watching football for roughly 42 years and i've never seen a team who has as much control over matches than this Spain team. The reason? The technically superior to every other great team i've ever seen. I've seen the fantastic Brazil team of 1970 and i can say without exageration that this team is technically superior (but to be fair the circumstances have changed: better pitches, better balls, better shoes, so i'm not necessarily saying that the players are better, i only say that they are technically more skilled).

What was the difference now with the other matches? IMO Xavi played a better match, Fabregas was his old self, giving beautifull passes and Iniesta proved himself to be the main candidate for the Ballon D'or and the FIFA World player of the year. IMO it is between him and Pirlo for the player of the tournament. But since Italy lost against Spain yesterday and since Pirlo yesterday had no impact at all, it should be Iniesta.

And this would only be a fitting tribute, because this Spain team plays like Barcelona. This treble is the triumph of the way Barcelona plays and how they use their youth players.

To conclude an hommage to a Real Madrid youth product: Casillas (the only Madrid youth product): what a fantastic goal keeper. His save on the Di Natale shot was as important as the goals (beautifull pass by Montolivo, who was the best Italian yesterday).

This must be one of the best national teams ever. I always loved this type of football.

 

[Lami]

Can we come back to earth now?

I know Spain played very good football last night, but you're giving them WAY too much credit than they deserve. You're talking about them like they're Gods. Like even if Italy were 100% fit and ready for them you'd say Spain upped their level even more and show them their real game. This is just wrong. The Italians are no players from the San Marino league.

There are good reasons why the match ended that way last night, and it's NOT just them playing good, and "paying tribute", whatever that means.

1- Spain had more energy. Italy looked wasted later in the game.
2- Prandelli made the wrong decisions with his side backs.
3- Italy did have scoring chances as good as the Spanish ones but they weren't going in.
4- Wrong subs and decisions led to playing with 10 men when 2-0 down.

Put all these factors into your equation and you get that miserable result. Now change them around:
1- Had Italy played "boring and negative" energy-reserving passing game like Spain did, they would've had a more competitive game and be on par with Spain's energy levels. This is a major thing btw.
2- Play Maggio and Balzaretti, or at least Balzaretti in his usual spot. Chiellini left back? Not sure what went with Prandelli's thinking there.
3- Italy score from their good chances.
4- Better starting line-up meant no useless subs. Meant better use of them later in the game and kept the energy levels on par.

I do agree they're technically good, but they're no Gods, and for sure the Italians aren't any less. It just happened they had a bad game, and the Spaniards took full advantage.

 

[gerd]

You are completely biased (i am aswell by the way, but i realise it).
It is debatable that Italy has as much chances as Spain, but let's for the sake of argument pretend that they had. It doesn't really matter because Spain always had the upper hand except for about 10 minutes in the first half (after the 1-0). It took one fantastic pass, one fantastic run by Jordi Alba and a clinical finish to make a second.

If you don't see that is fantastic football, then you don't get it. I'm sorry.

We both know why you will never like Spain and Barcelona, just admit that you ar extremely biased in a negative way.

 

[Rantboy]

I've seen the fantastic Brazil team of 1970 and i can say without exageration that this team is technically superior (but to be fair the circumstances have changed: better pitches, better balls, better shoes, so i'm not necessarily saying that the players are better, i only say that they are technically more skilled)

And better professionals. The level of fitness is completely different now. Gerson used to smoke half a dozen cigarretes in the halftime
And there was an element of naivety to the "casual" and "cheerful" style Brazil played. Garrincha, for example, played without even knowing the rules of the tournament (in 62 I think, they had beaten the USSR team and as they were going home, he said "Why are they going home? They're not waiting for the 2nd leg??")

Those were other times indeed. Football has been raising the bar with every decade and this Spanish team means business. This is the blueprint for the future - a team filled with versatile players who can press up the pitch and suffocate the opposition in such a way. Italy didn't have time to create much.

The only team who stretched Spain and gave them a proper run for their money was Portugal. And they were doing exactly what the Spanish do: press high up the pitch and keep possession well. If Portugal had a very good CF they could have beaten Spain there. So I think the other teams have to realise this and adapt when facing Spain.

This current group of players are making history. They are really special.
Brazil had a great generation in 94, 98 and 2002 (and as we all know they failed to win the 98 final). But Spain are making the most of their current generation, they are sweeping everything.

Roll on 2014 now

 

[Enzo]

Lami, my post wasent pointed to haters on this thread, it was pointed to haters around the world, who first say Germany will for sure crash Spain in final, then they all switched to Italy, oh look Italy for sure will have a good chance to beat Spain. Well no! People that support their teams and analyze are ok to me, those that dont care Who will win Spain as long as Spain will fail, well they can shut up for another 2 years.

How would you call a team that have 20 clean sheets in a row in Major competitions Play-offs? I have only one word - godlike. This domination is only comparable to Soviet red machine hockey team domination. Yes there were Brazilian NT, super Germs etc, but seriously 3 tournaments and opposing team Cant even score a GOAL? Thats beyond legendary to me!

 

[gerd]

If i count well, 11 knock-out matches in major tournaments without conceding a simple goal: that is immense.

 

[lo zio]

i find it quite funny that the only ones who aren't arguing in here are the spanish and the italians.
Gerd, to be honest, dismissing Lami's opinion by calling him biased is cheap. even if he was biased, u should still try and argument your points without belittling his opinion (coz that's what u're doing when u start your post by calling him biased....u're basically killing the conversation before it even begins). besides i don't see why Lami should be biased about this. he's not italian nor spanish... perhaps he has his own preferences, but that could be said about everyone of us (wich is probably why u included yourself among the "biased ones").... if we should restrain ourselves from expressing our opinions everytime we don't have an absolutely neutral perspective on that particular matter, then we should spend our entire lives with our mouth shut and places like this forum would be pointless.

Instead u call him biased, then u call yourself biased, not without remarking that, unlike him, u’re aware of it (as if being aware of your partial point of view could make your opinion more valuable or less biased)…. And then u extrapolate the only unquestionable fact he used to support his argument and say it’s debeatable???
Saying that Italy had their fair share of chances is not the debeatable Gerd….. scoring chances are infact one of the few certain things about football matches, because u can count them. Stats don’t define matches…. But they certainly are undebeatable by definition.
Spain had 14 shots, Italy had 11. Spain had 52% possession, Italy had 48%. …… actually I could do even better than Lami and tell u that up until Italy had 11 players on the pitch the numbers were exactly the same for both teams. 11 shots for both teams…. 6 shots on goal for both teams…. 50% possession for both teams.
This is not debeatable Gerd: theese are stats. Now, if u would tell me “yes but that means absolutely nothing as stats are absolutely unreliable when it comes to describing a match”.. then I would say “fair enough, u’re entirely right. As a matter of fact we were outplayed yesterday, and that was pretty evident, even though there’s no stat supporting this statement”.
But if u had said to me “u’re completely biased, your stats are debeatable, but for the sake of the argument, let’s pretend they are not…..” well, I would find your answer annoyingly condescending and i would be tempted not to bother replying at all.... even if it’s you.
I’m sure u realize I’m only telling u this coz I know u’re better than this and i actually care about u. if it would have been anyone else I would have just moved on and ignored the whole thing.

And now to Lami. Each of your arguments is pretty much undeniable. We looked very tired and heavy on our legs, while the Spanish were insanely fit. But that’s an explanation, not an excuse; it can’t be an excuse because this is a sport, and “being fit” is part of the game. Of course I’m not gonna blame our players for being tired. Our football is very demanding in terms of energy and we’re in july….. if anything I would give credit to the Spanish who were some absolute freaks of nature yesterday, running all over the pitch like it was December!

U also mentioned prandelli made some mistakes, and that’s also true. as a matter of fact we might say that 3 of the 4 goals spain scored were caused by prandelli’s bad decisions….. but we can’t put the coach out of the equation and use it as an excuse. The coaches are a factor; we praise them when they get it right and criticize them when they screw it up. But we can’t say “yeah they won, but that was also because the coach messed up big time”…..just like the fitness argument, this could be a reason, but not an excuse. Every goal somehow comes from an opponent’s mistake: it might be a midfielder getting dispossessed on the break, or a defender missing a tackle…. or a coach making a wrong substitution or fielding a wrong formation, it doesn't matter.

U’re also mentioning the fact that we had pretty much as many scoring chances as spain, but couldn’t put it on the back on the net. But once again, this is no excuse…. It wasn’t bad luck…. It was just casillas being casillas.

Had prandelli lined up balzaretti… had prandelli left montolivo on the pitch (WTF was he thinking!!), had we been in a better shape… each of these variables could have determined a different outcome, but that’s irrelevant. Football isn’t played on a chalkboard nor on a computer. It’s played on the pitch, and there are a thousand variables that come into play. Hundreds of different episode can impact a game..... but those episodes are actually part of the game (whether it’s a gk who is having a great day, or a team which is completely exhausted or a coach who makes a stupid call).
Dismissing your opponent’s credits “because of the episodes which had an impact on the game” would be pretty much like saying “yeah I lost the elections, but that was only because my opponent got more votes than me!”.

There’s a quote from sacchi wich suits this conversation perfectly: “there’s no human feat that, if we’re trying to belittle it, can’t be ascribed to lucky circumstances or episodes”. That’s absolutely true. I could write down right now 2 reports of the Italy germany game; one in which i would be able to describe it as a amazing victory for Italy; another that would picture the match as nothing but a series of unfortunate episodes for the germans.

Having said that, yes, this spain team is not formed by invincible gods and u shouldn’t really pay too much attention to those drama-queens who like to come up with sensationalist statements like “this is the greatest team ever” (actually, if I may give u a suggestion, u should leave a football conversation as soon as u hear someone using the expression “ever”, as that is usually a good sign u’re talking to an idiot)……
But yes, they are an absolutely amazing team and they are writing history, so a bit of hype is to be expected.

 

[lo zio]

And now onto the match. sorry for double posting but this one is specifically addressed to our spanish friends and spain fans iin here
WOW!!! That was just spectacular! How can a team play 90 minutes at such pace, at this point in the season is just beyond me. They usually teach u that defending is always about finding the right compromise between coverage and pressing, because as soon as u go on pressing u compromise your team’s field distribution (and therefore your coverage)….. and yet u guys yesterday were absolutely perfect in pressing and coverage at the same time.

Rarely in my life I’ve seen something like this. Your pitch coverage was absolutely sensational, as u kept adjusting your midfield and defensive line shape to our movements, so that we never had a clean passing trajectory…. And at the same time u were always putting pressure on our ball carriers…….. and (as if that wasn’t already impressive enough) u were still cool enough to make the most of your scoring chances and punish us whenever u got the opportunity (9 shots on goal; 4 goals.. that pretty much says everything).
That was just sensational. U really showed the world why u’re the best team around theese days. Hats off!!!!

and as for the "spain playing boring football" argument (sorry to bring this up again), i think the 2 italy-spain matches offered a perfect example of what i was talking about a few days ago.
u can only rate a team in terms of quality (good football\bad football)... but if u're talking about how entertaining a game was, than that comes from the combination of both teams' performances.
the italy-spain matches proved that whenever spain faces a team wich is not willing to settle on "damage control", they will find enough spaces to play direct football. and their direct football is as direct (if not more direct) than italy's football or germany's football.

obviously, when they face an opponent wich is willing to sacrifice any sort of offensive intentions and lines up a midfield wich acts basically as a second defensive line, then they won't find those channels and spaces, and so they'll settle down and pass the ball between themselves until they find that channell.... and u know why they'll do it? because they can!

 

[Enzo]

If i count well, 11 knock-out matches in major tournaments without conceding a simple goal: that is immense.

Yes you are correct, 20 I stated is over the top my mistake. Spain also won 61 or 62 games in a row if they scored first in the match.

Lo Zio, when you are talking about idiots dont forget that some people have language barrier and at times use familiar phrases as way to express themselves, it is hard sometimes to pick right words, as word vocabulary is limited.

About fresh Spain and tired Italy, Italy is mostly Juve, Spain mostly Real and Barca. We all know Real And especially Barca had a much longer season (Fifa world cup, Champions League, Super cup etc) Juve players overall stamina should be higher. There are other factors ofc, but Spanish style have advantage over every others, posession football leaves them with much more stamina, even Portugal that had a great game against Spain was literally dead in extra time.

 

[lo zio]

Lo Zio, when you are talking about idiots dont forget that some people have language barrier and at times use familiar phrases as way to express themselves, it is hard sometimes to pick right words, as word vocabulary is limited.

yeah, you're right mate, my choice of words wasn't really appropriate indeed. the word "idiots" is way too harsh.... but i'm sure u see my point there

as for the fitness point, by reading your post, i kinda get the feeling u're thinking i'm using it as an excuse. make no mistake, i am not.
if u read my post carefully u'll notice i specifically remarked that "being fit" is part of the game and that spain should get credit for their amazing fitness. it was a compliment to spanish players, not an excuse for the italians

 

[gerd]

Ok Ben, you are right. iu apologize to Lami.

 

[gerd]

and as for the "spain playing boring football" argument (sorry to bring this up again), i think the 2 italy-spain matches offered a perfect example of what i was talking about a few days ago.
u can only rate a team in terms of quality (good football\bad football)... but if u're talking about how entertaining a game was, than that comes from the combination of both teams' performances.
the italy-spain matches proved that whenever spain faces a team wich is not willing to settle on "damage control", they will find enough spaces to play direct football. and their direct football is as direct (if not more direct) than italy's football or germany's football.

This.
That is the point i could have made. Italy's biggest "mistake" was that they went for it because they believed that they could win the match. All the other teams that played Spain only thought about damage control. What they wanted in the first place was not to loose the match (even Portugal who played a very good match and Croatia who where a difficult team for Spain). Italy believed that they could win the match, went for it and the left space for Spain...and yes Spain played more direct.
This is also what Laurent Blanc said (before the match) when France played Spain. He said that you always adapt more or less to an adversary, but not as much as against Spain, because they are that good...

 

[Milanista]

I think Ben is Evo Web's Prandelli.

 

[lo zio]

Ok Ben, you are right. iu apologize to Lami.

I think Ben is Evo Web's Prandelli.

oh crap, now i feel like I am the one who is annoyingly condescending!
let's just have a virtual group hug and agree that we are all entitled to our opinions, even though we're all somehow biased......(i mean everyone but me, of course )

That is the point i could have made. Italy's biggest "mistake" was that they went for it because they believed that they could win the match

yeah, but can u really blame us for that? the first match proved we could do it, so we tried again. but this time were were just out of oxygen after a bunch of minutes.

to be honest i don't feel like blaming italy at all. this is a "new team" and we already exceeded our expectations by beating germany and reaching the final. as for the final, spain played better than us, simple as that. when u face a better team, wich also is performing better than u, there's not much to be sorry about. just congratulate with your opponent and accept the result.
and although i have some regrets (let's be honest prandelli messed up big time by lining up chiellini instead of balzaretti and subbing montolivo with motta), i really can't be mad at the same man who got us this far at his first international competition. everyone can make mistakes and prandelli is no exception.

 

[gerd]

I don't think you can blame Italy Ben, the final was great and it takes two teams to make a great match.
In the end whether you lose with penalties or with 4-0 (an exagerated result), a defeat is a defeat. Italy was a sensation for me.

 

[beachryan]

Well there we go - THAT was a performance worthy of lifting a trophy. Spain were magnificent yesterday. They showed many characteristics that have been missing in the tournament - ambition, positive play, incisiveness - all the things that have been missing for long parts of this tournament.

Just because of that showing, for 55 minutes (I'm not giving them much credit for the last two goals/ last 30 minutes - Italy basically gave up) they were far and away the best team in the tournament. Casillas was outstanding, Iniesta actually drove forward and some of Fabregas' movement was world class. Wonderful to see.

In some ways seeing that Spain play that way should be explanation enough for why so many neutral fans were disappointed up til now.

 

[gerd]

But in the other matches Casillas was also outstanding, Iniesta also actually tried to drive forward and Fabrgas mocvenmt was also world class. The difference: the lack of space. Like Ben and i already said: to see attractive football you need to have two teams willing to make it happen.

I kind of agree with you that some people might not like the way Spain played, but despite that they were ver strong (i'm sounding like a hardcore Spain fan, yet i'm not really).

 

[beachryan]

But in the other matches Casillas was also outstanding, Iniesta also actually tried to drive forward and Fabrgas mocvenmt was also world class. The difference: the lack of space. Like Ben and i already said: to see attractive football you need to have two teams willing to make it happen.

I kind of agree with you that some people might not like the way Spain played, but despite that they were ver strong (i'm sounding like a hardcore Spain fan, yet i'm not really).

I don't want to rehash so I'll just say I have a different opinion. Last night I saw a Spanish side that wanted to prove they were attacking and attractive - and who made passes and runs accordingly. That's certainly not something I've seen all tournament, regardless of what the opponents were doing.

Who knows, maybe Spain were just lulling us into complacency so they could turn it on in the final.

 

[-Panos-]

YouTube - [INCREDIBILE] Iker Casillas chiede RISPETTO per l'ITALIA sul 4-0