Seabass: PES 2009 forced back to drawing board

[ThomasGOAL]

You understand this part ?

"PES 2009 is in development, but after hearing the criticism, we'll be taking it back to the drawing board. It might not be next year, but it will be soon", Seabass explained.

 

[Nick Cave]

How do you know that???
Did you talk to Seabass???
As a customer it's your right to be disappointed, but wild speculations won't help...as a matter of fact i quite like the ML and judged by the great thread on this forum, quite a few others do too...

Gerd if you had the choice between a full league and cup structure compared to the ML, would you choose the ML... If you were sitting down to make a football Sim, I say Sim, though of course I have no knowledge that this is Seaturtles brief, would the first thing be, to make every aspect as true to the real wold as possible. I understand that many fans on here the on pitch aspect of the game is what matters above all else and I agree if this is wrong it's all over, but as I think embrace stated the off field matters are mostly data input, okay I grant it's not quite that simple but it's annoying to have a great game ruined for a lack of effort in this matter, not really the same thing but imagine having a fantastic on field Sim but instead of a stadium they were playing in a bowl of cornflakes, I don't care how good the game play was it would lose a sense of realism..

 

[Nick Cave]

Mmm to put a league structure in place with promotion and demotion there are quite a few significant factors that would need to be put in place.

First of all you would want the licenses for all the teams and players concerned and that would mean a lot more work on the licensing front.

vanzandt, I understand all the licences would be nice, but this does not mean you cannot have the structures there to create your own teams and leagues, whether you edit in a full Prem to Div2 or a full Italian Football Championship. The licences are not necessary, they are nice but with a good edit system you could create anything you want... the only problem being that would give the title longevity, this seems to be a dirty word in the industry nowadays...

 

[Nick Cave]

You understand this part ?

Being the cynic I am I read it as, "we had the tweaks already done and 09 was nearly finished, bar some fluff, but because Konami had some bad press, we got bollocked and told we had to make something that resembled a new game"
Lets wait and see but I'm still thinking just slightly bigger tweaks! In a way I really hope they can't solve the graphic glitches and have to go back to attack the core programme..

 

[vanzandt]

vanzandt, I understand all the licences would be nice, but this does not mean you cannot have the structures there to create your own teams and leagues, whether you edit in a full Prem to Div2 or a full Italian Football Championship. The licences are not necessary, they are nice but with a good edit system you could create anything you want... the only problem being that would give the title longevity, this seems to be a dirty word in the industry nowadays...

It isn't that simple...it just isn't.

I'm not saying that the effort isn't worth it, I mean in my opinion it isn't but I am not saying I am right.

What I am saying is the the work and input required is FAR greater than you would imagine. Take another look at my last post for an idea.

As for what you are saying, it is too easy to just come up with an ad hock answer like th one you have come up with but the knock on efects always make these things far more complicated.

I mean you also have a lot more screen work for artists and programmers, more front end design and coding. You have to it all planned out. If you are picking existing players and teams in order to generate the leagues then isn't that different from what you are asking for in terms of realism....isn't that the whole point that you originally wnated, or people generally want all the differing lower leagues from the majority of the major countries?

Ok even if you get your half way house....you have the moving of the players or the teams into the leagues...again a little more front end work- art and coding.

I mean I have been out of the industry for a while and I am just coming up with the obvious problems that are on the top of my head...not remotely anaylzing the likely other knock on effects.

Whenever anyone talks of these things just being more data or a bigger database they have clearly never been involved in the process of development.....as it is FAR more problematic than that in terms of time effort and money.

 

[Nick Cave]

It isn't that simple...it just isn't.

I'm not saying that the effort isn't worth it, I mean in my opinion it isn't but I am not saying I am right.

What I am saying is the the work and input required is FAR greater than you would imagine. Take another look at my last post for an idea.

As for what you are saying, it is too easy to just come up with an ad hock answer like th one you have come up with but the knock on efects always make these things far more complicated.

I mean you also have a lot more screen work for artists and programmers, more front end design and coding. You have to it all planned out. If you are picking existing players and teams in order to generate the leagues then isn't that different from what you are asking for in terms of realism....isn't that the whole point that you originally wnated, or people generally want all the differing lower leagues from the majority of the major countries?

Ok even if you get your half way house....you have the moving of the players or the teams into the leagues...again a little more front end work- art and coding.

I mean I have been out of the industry for a while and I am just coming up with the obvious problems that are on the top of my head...not remotely anaylzing the likely other knock on effects.

Whenever anyone talks of these things just being more data or a bigger database they have clearly never been involved in the process of development.....as it is FAR more problematic than that in terms of time effort and money.

vanzandt, your right, apart from some home programming and on site games testing, I'm not involved at all in the market, my job now involves architecture and contract management, though I agree it's not a simple as it's made out in a statement.
It is more than possible, and given today's technology it's also a poor excuse given Codemasters were managing it over a decade ago on equipment out processed by your average Microwave.. Okay again I concede that I'm being flippant, but it is all down to money, time and effort. I know we SWOS fans keep bringing it up, but it was all done then, why not now, again Licences or no? Oh and as for the artist screen work, I'd gladly have the simple over the damn cut scenes and dogs thanks...

 

[wasted_time]

Seabass is a crap name... nuff said

 

[jimis]

The reason for releasing this crap is simply, for years now(starting with WE8LE) we Buy the same Game every year, same stadiums, same graphics, but some new animations(wow!!!! GREAT!!!!) and every Time a different gameplay(see WE10)!

Now on next gen we get a PES6 who isnt tha Perfect, but when i see PES2008, it feels like football heaven! Ok Ganeplay is not tha perfect but it feels like a Fucking PES! Now in PES 2008 i score and it feels strange, i need 2-3 seconds to recognise that i have hit a goal! In facts PES6 on Xbox360 is better than this Crap PES2008! But konami knows tha PES sells, and it has worked, every Fan has bought it! On PC its a disaster(see online and graphic Problems) On 360 its Ok but its not PES its arcadeshit, far away from the old shool Gameplay!

So Seabass, forgett it, no more trust in your Team and Konami.......!

 

[vanzandt]

vanzandt, your right, apart from some home programming and on site games testing, I'm not involved at all in the market, my job now involves architecture and contract management, though I agree it's not a simple as it's made out in a statement.

My comment was only saying what it was/is like in terms of having been in the situation myself. I am sure you would feel differently if you faced these situations in the industry…..but I was not trying be a bill big balls…just trying and put across the issues that I have seen and what you would see in such situations.

It is more than possible, and given today's technology it's also a poor excuse given Codemasters were managing it over a decade ago on equipment out processed by your average Microwave.. Okay again I concede that I'm being flippant,

Hey that is fine, you raise a good point so it is worth answering and flippant is quite alright as long as the logic of the question/statement is good, which it is

First of all ANYTHING of this nature is doable if the time, money and resources are given to it. If it is prioritized over other factors then it can be done. The question is whether or not this area of design is worth prioritization of these resources that could be used elsewhere. A question of whether the payoff is worth the expenditure or whether the resources would be better employed elsewhere.

If you are talking about a simple but large database of players then that is- well simple and has been done in football management games for a very long time. You mention SWOS, yes it is easy if this is all you want.

But that is not is what is required for this to work is it?

I mean you would need to retain continuity throughout the game otherwise the game will look cheap and poorly made.

This means that if you have licensing and player likenesses throughout the game, you want to try and retain that integrity and consistency (at least to the degree it currently exists). I know that the pro-evo series has lagged behind FIFA on licensing, a fact that I am sure is not lost on Konami as they have been slated by a lot of people for a lack of complete licensing for the data they do have.

So if you are to have all these new leagues, players, teams, kits etc. Then you need to have at least the same licensing that you have at present for your current data.

In fact given Konami are struggling to sort out licensing as it stands with a limited data-set…number of leagues, teams, players and kits etc and they are getting hammered already for this, you have to ask why would they want to open themselves up to far greater criticism by creating a far greater problem in terms of obtaining intellectual property rights?

It seems a real problem and a big stumbling block to putting in place what you are talking about.

The original sensible soccer had no issue whatsoever with intellectual property rights because that game was created in a time before it was an issue, they just put the names of players and teams etc into the game and knew that they weren’t going to be sued by anyone. I can’t recall what SWOS did on the names front (a long time since I played it- always a Kickoff fan myself), did they change the odd letter or just put them all in again without the fear of being sued?

If they changed did nothing and just put the data in I would simply say, you can’t do that anymore without risky lawsuits. If they just changed the letters, I would say that was acceptable back then given the lack of technology, the innocence of those times, the lack of demand for realism etc. Given the present climate, I think it has got very difficult to do that and get away with it without being laughed at. This has been another big criticism of past PES games.

I think Konami would be wanting to get away from that and try and match FIFA where they can on the licensing front and get complete licensing on the data-set they do have rather than open themselves up to greater criticism. I say this because whether it is right or wrong Konami would get hammered more and potentially lose more money over the licensing issue and being behind FIFA and EA in this regard, more so than any problem they will face for not including what you are asking for.

I am not saying this is right, but it is true.

SWOS did not have to create player likenesses or create half reasonable kits…..the former in particular is a big deal. To retain consistency and integrity throughout the game you would need player likenesses to be created for a vast amount of players and that would take a great deal of time.

In terms of the statistical information that is provided for each player in PES that gives you a great deal of difference between individual players, that is quite a lot of data per player and you would need that data to be created for every single in all the leagues you are talking about.

Storing a database that involves far more information than SWOS then in terms of the statistics of players, player likenesses etc.

Going back to the licensing you would need the licensing for all the given leagues, coca cola championship…all foreign leagues that carry a sponsorship etc.

Back in the day when SWOS was produced play testing was not a big deal, these days submitting a game to Sony QA in order for it to be cleared is a big deal. If it doesn’t clear submission first time you are talk big money to have it re-submitted, and more money for each further submission. When you add multiple leagues into the mix you are greatly increasing the testing required before you pass the title onto Sony….again more money.

Then like I said you have the programming and art required to alter the front end of the game and unfortunately you can’t pass that on to people no matter how nice a job they might do. You are paying your staff to do that on a professional basis and again it is time and money.


Again none of this is to say it could not be done, it is simply a question of where you want to spend your resources which are very much finite.

For years and years EA and FIFA have focused their resources, far greater resources I might add on licenses and data, as a result their A.I, animation system, and basic ideas of gameplay improvement suffered.

The question is, is what you want worth the expenditure, Konami think not. As for me, I think not but that is neither here nor there and I can understand why you want the features you are talking about.

I would like to see a complete re-write at this stage. A new game engine, A.I and animation systems written from scratch. This is where the core of the game is and I think the game has aged and there are only so many times you can re-code certain areas of the game. No matter how well organized and commented any code is over time it becomes like the wires at the back of your television and when you try and take the plug out for the TV the lights go off. You can end up with a legacy where errors in the game remain from on version to the next or even appear to have been written out of the game only to return when another pieces of code elsewhere is altered. It all gets a little bit like chaos theory where the wings of a butterfly can cause a storm on the other side of the world.

You get to a point where it is difficult to make changes to one part of the logic because it cause problems elsewhere. Also the A.I and animation system are inextricably linked at the hip and so limitations in one often limit the other, initial errors in the creation of one five years back can impose problem years latter in or or the other or both….

No matter how good a game has been sooner or latter you need a re-write.

After the typical first game on a new system with the old code and the inevitable cash-in….after that it can be a good idea for that to be the time at which you say lets go from scratch and a complete re-write.

I think fans of football game would benefit far more from a complete re-write of the game on new technology from a talented team with the right ethos….

I would much rather that than making the game play nicer from a database point of view.

but it is all down to money, time and effort. I know we SWOS fans keep bringing it up, but it was all done then, why not now, again Licences or no? Oh and as for the artist screen work, I'd gladly have the simple over the damn cut scenes and dogs thanks...

All down to choices at a senior level whether that be Seabass or those above him...only the people within Komani know how much control and responsibility lies with Seabass.

Hey Nick I can understand what you want to see in the game though mate and I am not saying that it is not a good idea...that I am right. Just giving an opinion based on my feelings and experience in the industry.

If people don't agree with what I have had to say that is fine, its all about opinions and who knows who will be a games designer tomorrow. As it is I have said enough and wont bore anyone further.

 

[zeemeister]

@Vanzandt
Not boring at all. I like the insight and appreciate that someone who knows a thing or two, shares this info. There are many pros and cons in game developement and it's the developers duty to be aware of them and deliver a good game to the customers. This is something Konami has not done. They have lost some support with PES2008 and will need to restore the faith.
I am happy that the fans have been so vocal and are being noticed.

 

[Nick Cave]

Thanks Vanzandt for your thorough reply.. I understand the restraints Konami are under in regards to the licences, and I take on board your comments regarding the time and other issues. When I have a little more time I hope to add a little more depth to my response... I would though still like to see some form of full league and cup system in place for 09 and even without the licences, this is very attainable.

 

[gerd]

Wow Vanzandt, that was an interesting read...
A somebody who knows nothing about all this, i feel i should add something.
This year i have bought FIFA for the first time in years and i like it. People say it is more realistic than PES this year. Well i agree only partially. The playing itself, i.e. building up one's attacks and breaking down the attacks of the other team is indeed more realistic than PES. Why do i still enjoy PES more (and that is only a personal opinion) despite the obvious flaws (which are almost unforgiveable)??? Well because in PES there is a difference between individual players and teams...I've played a manager mode with Le Havre and to me playing against Guingamp was as hard as playing against Olympique Lyon...futhermore i did not notice big differences between individual players...and that is the thing i love most in PES... that is why i love the ML as much. You buy a player and sometimes he suits you well and sometimes he don't...i like to play with good passers and not with the very, very technically skilled players...when i played a CUP with France i discovered that i could not play with Zidane (perhaps the best player in the game)...
That's what i miss in FIFA and what i like about PES. And despite the fact that the game is not as good as in PES3-4 or 5, it still has that one aspect that i love...
But this is only my opinion...i'm not good at those things and i'm even a very lousy PES player...

PS: Chris, fantastic that you are back again, i'm over the moon !!!

 

[denirobob]

Wow Vanzandt, that was an interesting read...
A somebody who knows nothing about all this, i feel i should add something.
This year i have bought FIFA for the first time in years and i like it. People say it is more realistic than PES this year. Well i agree only partially. The playing itself, i.e. building up one's attacks and breaking down the attacks of the other team is indeed more realistic than PES. Why do i still enjoy PES more (and that is only a personal opinion) despite the obvious flaws (which are almost unforgiveable)??? Well because in PES there is a difference between individual players and teams...I've played a manager mode with Le Havre and to me playing against Guingamp was as hard as playing against Olympique Lyon...futhermore i did not notice big differences between individual players...and that is the thing i love most in PES... that is why i love the ML as much. You buy a player and sometimes he suits you well and sometimes he don't...i like to play with good passers and not with the very, very technically skilled players...when i played a CUP with France i discovered that i could not play with Zidane (perhaps the best player in the game)...
That's what i miss in FIFA and what i like about PES. And despite the fact that the game is not as good as in PES3-4 or 5, it still has that one aspect that i love...
But this is only my opinion...i'm not good at those things and i'm even a very lousy PES player...

PS: Chris, fantastic that you are back again, i'm over the moon !!!

Hi chaps,

couldnt agree more with Gerd on this and his feelings on the new Fifa. I share them too.

-

As an example of what many perceive as Konami's lazyness/illogical thinking...

Is there a 'good' reason why teams like Uzbekistan, Oman, Iceland etc.. are in the game and can be played against but not with ? because if there is, I really cannot fathom it.

cheers

db

 

[ToaTheBoa]

The reason PES 2008 lacks so many features from earlier versions is because they ARE rewriting large parts of the engine. Because of the small development team, they can't just not finish everything in so little time.

 

[Lami]

Hi chaps,

couldnt agree more with Gerd on this and his feelings on the new Fifa. I share them too.

-

As an example of what many perceive as Konami's lazyness/illogical thinking...

Is there a 'good' reason why teams like Uzbekistan, Oman, Iceland etc.. are in the game and can be played against but not with ? because if there is, I really cannot fathom it.

cheers

db

Always asked myself that too. Them teams are in the database anyway so why not include them in the list to play with?

 

[embraceuk1]

Fuck the liceneses, not a single team needs a licence.
Give us every major league in the world with a proper structures and management options this includes moving from one club to the other and a great editor mode and we can do the rest.

 

[embraceuk1]

The SWOS management engine was so simple and it still had player Growth, Demanding Chairman, Club Manager Movement, Transfer system and Proper league structures which included international management and games throughout the season.
Over 10 years ago on one Floppy disk.

Thats why Seabass doesn't care about the rest of the world and why we get so very frustrated at the lack of options in the games.
Its not even primary school science.

 

[vanzandt]

Zeemeister, Nick and Gerd than thank you for the kind comments. I was unsure if to post to begin with as I didn’t know if people would look for an argument with me or not, seem to be arguments all the time in message boards.

As people have been quite positive and not annoyed by my posts..I post this mail…

Ultimately Konami are responsible if the fans are not happy that much is certainly true, irrespective of how or where things have gone wrong.

Fans are right too voice their opinions, both the considered variety and those where they are venting their spleen. A lot of the issues are not really as fans see them in terms of how development works; a lot of what is said by people misunderstands the complexities, constraints, lack of control exists over games by developers themselves, the compromises that have to be made as enforced by schedules, resources and money men etc…

And often people fail to realize that with finite resources you have to be careful what you wish for/choose to do. People may cry out for one feature that they can see is not there but maybe don’t realize what they have gained as a result of work carried out elsewhere….

BUT………..

All said an done…none of this matters.

All the fans criticism is still justifiable, understandable etc and should definitely be laid out….no matter what.

People who have not worked in development can only express themselves as far as their relative knowledge allows them, and from a gaming perspective but it doesn’t making it any less relevant in terms of worth. To state the obvious, at the end of the day (I hate that cliché) games are there to be played and the people that play them overall are the experts in evaluating what makes a good game good and a poor game poor.

If the game isn’t good then irrespective of the debatable responsibilities of individuals like Seabass or his development team, the company, Konami are ultimately responsible for not putting in place the correct formulae for success.

I would though still like to see some form of full league and cup system in place for 09 and even without the licenses, this is very attainable.

I understand what you would like them to do Nick and I know why. You are correct in that it is attainable without licenses- very easy in fact.

The question is, would they want to do that without the licensing in place, given the potential fans they would alienate by a lack of licenses for leagues, teams, player names, kits and in particular player likenesses? And do they want to put their resources into this area?

This is not to say they should not do this, these are just some of the questions they would ask themselves in consideration of the implication of including such a feature without the licensing.

Fuck the liceneses, not a single team needs a licence.
Give us every major league in the world with a proper structures and management options this includes moving from one club to the other and a great editor mode and we can do the rest.

Again this is correct, no teams needs a license. But would the game loose or gain more fans if no license existed? If all the players faces in these leagues/teams, all the faces of the players in team after team- looked the same or generic, all had changed player and team names etc

Would such a game face a greater loss of fans,review scores and ultimately a loss of revenue and sales, because of poor asthetics?

Even if it is something you and Nick would prefer?

Or would such changes result in more fans, greater review scores and an increase in revenue and sales?

Would the feature offset the asthetics in terms of the bottom line of review scores and sales?

This is a question for you to ask yourself.

Unless Konami obtains the resources, time, money, staff ect to be able to put in place the licenses for what you are asking….

Even then would they go for this fearure over alternative uses for such resources or would they prefer to use resources in a differing direction and spending the tim and money etc on something else.

e.g a complete logic/A.I and animation re-write, or on a game engine re-write or on new motion capture and graphical modeling/Animation re-write, or on an entirely new sophisticated commentary system or on a real world physical engine or a myriad of other things….

I hope you can see I am not saying you guys are wrong at all, I mean I would rather resources went elsewhere personally unless they become infinite or sufficiently large that we can see everything we want developed (never happened in my time in development) , but that is not the point….the point is your opinion is just as subjectively valid as mine and not the issue, the issue is just pointing out what a little of the typical reasoning involved in deciding on what to do will be based on.

If people want me to shut up and bog off I will as I have wrote a lot like I said and do not wish to seem like I am telling people what to think or anything.

 

[Lami]

The SWOS management engine was so simple and it still had player Growth, Demanding Chairman, Club Manager Movement, Transfer system and Proper league structures which included international management and games throughout the season.
Over 10 years ago on one Floppy disk.

Thats why Seabass doesn't care about the rest of the world and why we get so very frustrated at the lack of options in the games.
Its not even primary school science.

You know what? That is actually an idea right there. Seabass can have talks with SWOS producers and maybe agree on a collaboration? That would make things much easier for them since SWOS producers already have the experience and knowledge, Seabass can outsource that management/player database part of the game to them. Can't they do that?

 

[Lami]

e.g a complete logic/A.I and animation re-write, or on a game engine re-write or on new motion capture and graphical modeling/Animation re-write, or on an entirely new sophisticated commentary system or on a real world physical engine or a myriad of other things….

Let Konami concentrate on them parts of the game and outsource the ML/Manager mode + player/team database to SWOS makers.

 

[gomito#10]

Hi chaps,

couldnt agree more with Gerd on this and his feelings on the new Fifa. I share them too.

-

As an example of what many perceive as Konami's lazyness/illogical thinking...

Is there a 'good' reason why teams like Uzbekistan, Oman, Iceland etc.. are in the game and can be played against but not with ? because if there is, I really cannot fathom it.

cheers

db

i agree with you guys somewhat. I think fifa does a good job with the top teams, but outside that, not so much... where in pro evo they do a good job with all the teams, but i also feel like even this part of the game has gone wrong... it seems that many players in pro evo now feel alike and stats dont matter as much. I remember always picking up babigadinga for my wing play caue he was so fast and could beat defenders down the wing, now no one can beat defenders, so it doesnt really matter how fast they are... i dont know but when i play pro evo now, i dont feel the differences in players anymore as much as I used too....

 

[vanzandt]

Let Konami concentrate on them parts of the game and outsource the ML/Manager mode + player/team database to SWOS makers.

You cannot outsource massive sections of a game and then fit it together like a big jigsaw....or at least it is a terrible idea. I witnessed soemthing of a Frankenstein effor like this many, many years ago at Gremlin and it was a disaster.

The number of issues and problems are phenomenal!!!

Also SWOS was made by sensible soccer, the studio went bankrupt in the 80s after John Hare poured vast resources into a game with controversial content that never saw the light of day.

So the compnay no longer exists and hasn't in something like 15 years. Last I heard Hare was working as a regular designer at Codemasters...that is what a few of my frineds there told me.

Also ALL the data that existed in that game;

A) probably no longer exists!!
B) Relates to football players that are long retired and not remotely relevant to todays players.....Paul Ince was a young player and Gullit were players in their data!!
C) Even if the data existed, and was of todays players which it is NOT, NONE of it would relate to the data required by the PES game...NONE of it!!!

It would be like trying to use a packet of quavers or a sausage roll instead of a relevant database. It would be like trying to shove a sausage into a into a playstation 3 to see if it could work instead of a controller.

The !!! relate to emphasis not shouting..

 

[gerd]

Well Csaunders, i don't agrre with you.
In the ML the players get tired pretty soon (which isn't realistic, but it adds to the challenge) so you have to change them. In a season youneed to use all your players and i definitely see and feel the difference...

 

[Plan M]

I am past caring. I look forward to the FIFA games more these days.

 

[Lami]

You cannot outsource massive sections of a game and then fit it together like a big jigsaw....or at least it is a terrible idea. I witnessed soemthing of a Frankenstein effor like this many, many years ago at Gremlin and it was a disaster.

The number of issues and problems are phenomenal!!!

Also SWOS was made by sensible soccer, the studio went bankrupt in the 80s after John Hare poured vast resources into a game with controversial content that never saw the light of day.

So the compnay no longer exists and hasn't in something like 15 years. Last I heard Hare was working as a regular designer at Codemasters...that is what a few of my frineds there told me.

Also ALL the data that existed in that game;

A) probably no longer exists!!
B) Relates to football players that are long retired and not remotely relevant to todays players.....Paul Ince was a young player and Gullit were players in their data!!
C) Even if the data existed, and was of todays players which it is NOT, NONE of it would relate to the data required by the PES game...NONE of it!!!

It would be like trying to use a packet of quavers or a sausage roll instead of a relevant database. It would be like trying to shove a sausage into a into a playstation 3 to see if it could work instead of a controller.

The !!! relate to emphasis not shouting..

Well just like they created a database of players and teams at their time, they can create all that at this time, cant they? Atleast they tried that before and it worked a treat and they know how to do it. Konami's PES department that takes care of that part of the game aren't doing a good job really, so why not outsource it to someone or a bunch of people who know how to do it properly?

 

[Anthos]

My opinion: The gameplay on PES2008 is second to none. This is the best it has ever been and the best there has ever been. The worst thing about the game is the editing modes.PES6 was one of the best/easiest in terms of editing modes i.e patches, stadia, boots etc. The only thing I would of liked was more editing options i.e space for extra teams! Thats me!!!!!!

 

[hangar18]

Some really interesting comments and observations. For what its worth here is my 2 cents worth:

The last PES I bought was 5 and decided not to buy PES again UNTIL Konami spent some time revamping master league. PES 6 and 7 have trundled along and it seems they have taken away even more editing options and made about a 1% change to ML. Does anyone remember they used to have a "sound like" commentary name option for clubs and a list of cities (Aberdeen, Bucharest etc). Why on earth would you take options away???? An ashtray on a motorbike makes more sense. Anyway the last 2 offerings are not good enough IMHO, therefore I have not bought.

I just do not get at all why Seabass/Konami between them continually fail to see the blindingly obvious. IMHO, the first thing, the very first thing that you should do when planning the next installment is to look for the quick wins, and in doing so consider the rewark/resource management trade-off. Had this aspect been competently managed it should have become clear (about 4 years ago) that the presentation and ML need an overhaul. I do have experience in programming (currently developing a space sim game) and am confident that with 1 resource (ie. myself) I could greatly improve the menu presentation and redo ML in a matter of weeks. Just to qualify the "redo ML" comment, I mean set up say 50 "generic" leagues with options to choose both the number of teams and the teams themselves, and create however many "generic" players (2000?) based on the existing face/body. By generic I mean the names of players and teams would be unlicensed but contain full editing options for players to mould into their team. Each league would have editable cup format options and an overall inter-league cup (i.e. champs league) which the player could of course rename.

Are Konami / Seabass really that shortsighted that they cannot see this would easily be a better allocation of time than say spending 2 weeks creating new referee animations or finding new ways to replace last years terrible music with an equally bad offering this time round (as I understand to be the case). And to release something as buggy which I gather is the case for PS3 users, is unforgiveable. Sure they want to make a profit, but not at my expense thanks. I think I might organise a whip round for Konami and Seabass to attend a decent project management course (Prince II is quite good for those of you out there that use it).

Wakey wakey konami, get your heads out of the 1990's and into the present time. The fans demand more so cough up or your game will die.

 

[embraceuk1]

Where talking about the masterLeague structure if its hard.
It a fact the easiest part of the game to edit and programme and test.

 

[Jimi_Zuko]

Well Csaunders, i don't agrre with you.
In the ML the players get tired pretty soon (which isn't realistic, but it adds to the challenge) so you have to change them. In a season youneed to use all your players and i definitely see and feel the difference...

if ur holding R1 for most of the game, off ocurse they r gonna get tired quickly, if a player ran hard constantly for the full 90min in real life, he wouldnt last, from what iv learnt use r1 approppriately and ur players wont tire as quick as u think

 

[winston]

Fuck the liceneses, not a single team needs a licence.
Give us every major league in the world with a proper structures and management options this includes moving from one club to the other and a great editor mode and we can do the rest.

Agreed. Licensing is not the issue and vanzandt's comments don't make much sense to me.

This game has never been about licenses. It's always had bogus names, even in the days (not that long ago) when it only had a few dozen teams.

The game already has 20 teams called something like Team 1 to Team 20 with Player Names along the lines of Player1, Player 2, etc. This is their substitute for the Bundesliga.

The English Premier League is still unlicensed (bar 2 teams). It's probably the most popular league in the game yet they still release it unlicensed. So they could equally release unlicensed Championship, League 1 and League 2 teams, but they choose not to.

Much of the data for none "star" teams is clearly made up. They've not done an analysis of all the minor teams already in the game to get exact player stats for every player. Much of it is just generic garbage, probably typed in at random by monkeys.

The game has never been about havig all the minor teams and players licensed and accurate. They're just stocking fillers around the stars.

None of these things stop them from creating proper league structures. The only thing stopping them is their own attitude.

The game is elitest. They don't care about the lesser teams.

The game will always lack integrity whilst the ML is such a joke.

Seabass recently proclaimed that PES2008 now has 20-team leagues in the ML. He made the remark as if it was some kid of glorious technological breakthrough. He has clearly never seen SWOS.