stupidusername
Conference
- 16 July 2017
This is just hand waving
-
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PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ThomasGOAL
- Start date
This is just hand waving
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- Team
- PES4 Partick Thistle
saintric
Premier League
- 9 October 2007
pros and cons
looks a lot smoother animation wise no complaints here
Speed is just right
Players models are good but some are extremely skinny iniesta looks malnourished
Stadium detail and pitchside is beautiful although still dislike the turfs
Goalkeepers seem good but a lot of rebound goals and chances so far in my games they seem to fumble more
Shooting has been improved by a small margin I was playing on 2017 while demo was dl noticed a diff right away so it is better but not enough this needs to be a 2019 priority along with more stat related pass error
Passing felt like 2017 ball a bit slower
Superstar AI was a challenge they score some beautiful goals neymar scored a half volley from a wide angle over my gk into the far corner was stunned by that notice the 2016 one on one lob is back for AI hope its not as common tho as it was in 2016
Might be tactics (Hug line) but wingers are often left free wide unmarked with lots of space its like the L and RB ignore them
Lightning is OK bit too bright wish it had 2016s daytime hazy look that was the perfect serie A look but personal preference of course
Happy overall plays heavier and a bit less frantic than 2017 with some nice polish i feel a bigger difference in low rated players compared to higher one this will be great in the ML controlling lower teams
looks a lot smoother animation wise no complaints here
Speed is just right
Players models are good but some are extremely skinny iniesta looks malnourished
Stadium detail and pitchside is beautiful although still dislike the turfs
Goalkeepers seem good but a lot of rebound goals and chances so far in my games they seem to fumble more
Shooting has been improved by a small margin I was playing on 2017 while demo was dl noticed a diff right away so it is better but not enough this needs to be a 2019 priority along with more stat related pass error
Passing felt like 2017 ball a bit slower
Superstar AI was a challenge they score some beautiful goals neymar scored a half volley from a wide angle over my gk into the far corner was stunned by that notice the 2016 one on one lob is back for AI hope its not as common tho as it was in 2016
Might be tactics (Hug line) but wingers are often left free wide unmarked with lots of space its like the L and RB ignore them
Lightning is OK bit too bright wish it had 2016s daytime hazy look that was the perfect serie A look but personal preference of course
Happy overall plays heavier and a bit less frantic than 2017 with some nice polish i feel a bigger difference in low rated players compared to higher one this will be great in the ML controlling lower teams
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
Chip goal bug is still in there from E3 thats for sure. No way thats a miss for the cpu.
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
No apologies necessary at all, thank you for the detailed response. I definitely agree with a lot of it - which is a reason why that basis for fundamentals is even more important, and aligns closer to your comments than what is being displayed in the video game. The video posted is more so build up from back - that's not necessary my concern. My concern is in regards to the positioning of the defenders, in the attacking shape.
PES realism dies in positioning when it has to do with the attack. Where the ball is, relevant to the attacking team's positioning - and where the defenders are located.
Look here:
All defenders hugging the mid-way line...this is PES 18 demo...
All 4 defenders again holding midway line...
Look at the 2 CB's marking the forward. The ball is in the opposing goal, yet they are still marking...
Same position - 3 defending players in the center circle.
My approach is the pursuit of a solution of either A) drop the forwards back, so the defenders - since they are man marking anyways - get sucked into going forward past the halfway line - or spreading out; or B) Push the center backs up, and wide - so the forward gets pushed away, and they can actually contribute to an attack.
See the center backs become outlets in advanced positions. This means they are involved in the attack - and not just in a defensive frame of mind the whole time. This is why I agree with you in regards to the mentality of the common defender. They are not just CBs anymore, or even a libero, they are active and mobile DMFs essentially. This is the problem, and why we do not see a proper zone, which means every foul, tackle, is from 1 on 1, instead of a group tackle, or zonal pressure. There are not enough bodies built in attack or defense.
PRO_TOO
Team Heffernan
You can't change formation, it's greyed out.
The games good but so was 17. My main gripe is at times when I'm in the zone it's just like 2017. The step up just isn't that big and I think the player models are worse than 17. Feels like the gameplay aspects could of been implemented in a patch. Not overly impressed , if FIFAS good I'll prob go with that and dip into pes 17 as and when
saintric
Premier League
- 9 October 2007
I HATED that in 16 it made bringing out the GK in 2016 pointless only seen it twice in around 20 games dues to them not being in that situation but AI scored with both efforts
I really do like the extra little animations like first touchs and movements when passing at awkward angles
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No apologies necessary at all, thank you for the detailed response. I definitely agree with a lot of it - which is a reason why that basis for fundamentals is even more important, and aligns closer to your comments than what is being displayed in the video game. The video posted is more so build up from back - that's not necessary my concern. My concern is in regards to the positioning of the defenders, in the attacking shape.
PES realism dies in positioning when it has to do with the attack. Where the ball is, relevant to the attacking team's positioning - and where the defenders are located.
Look here:
All defenders hugging the mid-way line...this is PES 18 demo...
All 4 defenders again holding midway line...
Look at the 2 CB's marking the forward. The ball is in the opposing goal, yet they are still marking...
Same position - 3 defending players in the center circle.
My approach is the pursuit of a solution of either A) drop the forwards back, so the defenders - since they are man marking anyways - get sucked into going forward past the halfway line - or spreading out; or B) Push the center backs up, and wide - so the forward gets pushed away, and they can actually contribute to an attack.
See the center backs become outlets in advanced positions. This means they are involved in the attack - and not just in a defensive frame of mind the whole time. This is why I agree with you in regards to the mentality of the common defender. They are not just CBs anymore, or even a libero, they are active and mobile DMFs essentially. This is the problem, and why we do not see a proper zone, which means every foul, tackle, is from 1 on 1, instead of a group tackle, or zonal pressure. There are not enough bodies built in attack or defense.
I understand your concern, but, and actually while playing sometimes I tried to focus on the radar to check out your comments made in the early days of videos. Not always and not very focused but it did cross my mind. I remember that four years ago I was asked by my boss to write a documented article about which of the games was the most realistic simulation of the game. My conclusion back then was that although PES was more on the point in terms of micro actions and what could be donde on the game, FIFA was better at simulating how tactics worked (with an approach that I didn't like, nonetheless). PES was like a game stucked on the past, like it simulated football from another era (the unresponsiveness helped with that haha). That have been refined over the recent editions but was not totally where it should last year. It will take more playing and tweaking to see if PES 2018 is there, but I was very happy with my first impression with the demo in that regard.
I won't go into details with the images you posted as I find very difficult to actually engage on a debate about snaps of dynamic game without given real context (I hope this doesn't sound condescending, not my intention at all). But, as I stated on my last post: those things happen in real life. What is right or wrong tactically and technically in football is very relative and depend heavily on context. And fundamentals do change over time, that's how tactics evolve and change: by breaking paradigms called fundamentals of the game. What we have to ask ourselves is this: does the game allow me to tactically recreate that last image? Or no matter what I do, what players I put to play, on what roles and what indications, the game does not allow me to do it? Because that would be problematic.
We want every team to feel and be different, and we want players to make mistakes on the ball. I do want teams to make "mistakes" off the ball and have bad positioning if stats and tactics make them have them and viceversa. While playing the demo I had times when I had to move the ball around to attack because there was no space for running and other times when that space was there and I could exploit it. And it did change from team to team. Liverpool pressed and gave space to run; Flamenco didn't. That was so cool.
P.S.: I went back to your snaps and I saw something that I would like to comment on: you say that is a mistake in team positioning that there are four defenders on the halfway line when the team is attacking on the other line. This is a common trait on different teams from different eras and from different levels of competition. For instance, I would say a bunch of managers would agree with that positioning because the other team has not withdrawn their offensive trio, which is another common trait. So defenders are defending as high as they because of offside rule and with one extra man against the rival's attack. That was a fundamental not so long ago and that's why it was common to say that just one of the two full back could attack (It was when attacks were composed by two strikers and not three or four).
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aussiepesfan
Champions League
- 17 April 2002
Quick thoughts after only a couple of games, full manual, topplayer and superstar:
+without doubt the best pes in terms of weight of players, realistic slower speed of gameplay, and ball physics. With improved animations, this game looks and feels absolutely brilliant
+Shooting has changed... ive skyed quite a few when powering up the bar, and could never ever do this in pes2017. More tap ins below keeper, as in realife, when limiting power on shots.. Didn't really get to see or test cpu shooting variation as I only played a couple of times.
+semi auto defence hugely improved.. keeps your player control on single player until you change... unlike last year, where it would automatically change for you. As it says in info, semi-auto only automatically changes your cursor when in attack now. In defence itll only change you for the real obvious ones, where a ball has been cleared, and your current controlled player is 50yards or so from ball.. will pick nearest player.
+very noticeable that cpu doesn't madly pressure you as in superstar in pes2017. they hold back and wait for you to come forward.. they manage space better, and defence way smarter rather than the kinda mindless pressing they did in pes2017.
-hard to find any negatives so far, but I did find top player way too easy..and superstar is a bit easier than last year.. but that's hard to tell with limited gametime.
-player positioning could be tightened.
-daytime grass still could look better.. nighttime has improved.. but not daytime for me.
All I can say, is I'm very happy with the offline mode... cannot wait to play this a bit more in a day or two after my move.
oh,,,give 'beginner' a try, to sorta do a free training mode, with crosses etc.. this was fun particularly with crossing practice and r2 curling shot practice... some nice shooting animations introduced to first time shots as well
+without doubt the best pes in terms of weight of players, realistic slower speed of gameplay, and ball physics. With improved animations, this game looks and feels absolutely brilliant
+Shooting has changed... ive skyed quite a few when powering up the bar, and could never ever do this in pes2017. More tap ins below keeper, as in realife, when limiting power on shots.. Didn't really get to see or test cpu shooting variation as I only played a couple of times.
+semi auto defence hugely improved.. keeps your player control on single player until you change... unlike last year, where it would automatically change for you. As it says in info, semi-auto only automatically changes your cursor when in attack now. In defence itll only change you for the real obvious ones, where a ball has been cleared, and your current controlled player is 50yards or so from ball.. will pick nearest player.
+very noticeable that cpu doesn't madly pressure you as in superstar in pes2017. they hold back and wait for you to come forward.. they manage space better, and defence way smarter rather than the kinda mindless pressing they did in pes2017.
-hard to find any negatives so far, but I did find top player way too easy..and superstar is a bit easier than last year.. but that's hard to tell with limited gametime.
-player positioning could be tightened.
-daytime grass still could look better.. nighttime has improved.. but not daytime for me.
All I can say, is I'm very happy with the offline mode... cannot wait to play this a bit more in a day or two after my move.
oh,,,give 'beginner' a try, to sorta do a free training mode, with crosses etc.. this was fun particularly with crossing practice and r2 curling shot practice... some nice shooting animations introduced to first time shots as well
Gunslinger
Premier League
- 5 September 2016
Bummer.
What's wrong with stating the latter? A lot of people aren't fond of it and haven't been for many years. It is what it is. Should we beat around the bush in order to create a narrative that coincides with your viewpoint? It's a major facet of a football game and one that we've been told would be improved upon for the demo. Of course people are going to mention it. I could talk from a technical and aesthetic angle until I'm blue in the face about why I find the shooting in Pro Evo to be lackluster, but it won't do me any good because it's here to stay for at least another year. Quite the dismissive attitude.
Played a few games and to be honest I'm not really enjoying it, don't really feel the step up from 17 in regards to shooting passing and player feel, to me atm it feels like pes17.5, not enough for me to buy this years game.
Btw the beta felt more weightier with the passing and shooting.
Btw the beta felt more weightier with the passing and shooting.
Chuny
-
- 11 December 2007
It's not the fact that people can find this or that not good enough. I don't want everyone to think like me.
It's the way they say it. No room for debate. And how repetitive they get. At least once a day "the nets are steel cages, sux". And that's that. The same people. "Passing are laser guided. Won't buy it".
And when some one else actually tries to be helpful and advices them something like "try manual shooting" or whatever, they completely dismiss the advice and go on "shooting sucks. Game breaker.". It's annoying.
I love when people express themselves and try to be deep about why they do or don't like whatever in the game. I take my time and read it and give it some thought after that, before actually replying.
But when I see posts coming from the same 4 or 5 guys, with that kind of short statement... it frustrates me. It feels like when you try to have a conversation with rebellious teenagers.
Aye, fair enough. The constant droning on about certain topics can be a bit draining.
shez
League 1
- 19 August 2005
Just played 5 games On top player and Superstar
- Not enough fouls , In one game I had 2... but none in the rest including a boca river game (Issue not addressed it seems)
- Positioning issues are embarrassing, So much space on the pitch and I hope tactical changes can fix this
- Defenders camped in their six yard box, They retreat too deep making it look unrealistic and causes silly looking goal mouth scrambles and gives chance for too many long shots
- Goalkeepers improved, Very nice saves but Would love to see them come off the line more though, Their six yard should be a no go zone for ANYONE
- Shooting hasn't changed much, But the ball physics have improved and a nice dip with some finishes looks fresh...Heading is too weak.
- AI is better, No catch-up bug but Superstar were very negative and boring to play against.
- Game speed is ok, But the Beta had more weight to the players which seem to be sliding now (On 0 speed)
Overall I didn't expect major changes but it's definitely an improvement on 2017, The debate will still go on but I think that PC version when modded could save this year's incarnation (cameras,tactics,licensing..etc)
Otherwise this won't last a month or two before becoming a repetitive mess just like the last versions
- Not enough fouls , In one game I had 2... but none in the rest including a boca river game (Issue not addressed it seems)
- Positioning issues are embarrassing, So much space on the pitch and I hope tactical changes can fix this
- Defenders camped in their six yard box, They retreat too deep making it look unrealistic and causes silly looking goal mouth scrambles and gives chance for too many long shots
- Goalkeepers improved, Very nice saves but Would love to see them come off the line more though, Their six yard should be a no go zone for ANYONE
- Shooting hasn't changed much, But the ball physics have improved and a nice dip with some finishes looks fresh...Heading is too weak.
- AI is better, No catch-up bug but Superstar were very negative and boring to play against.
- Game speed is ok, But the Beta had more weight to the players which seem to be sliding now (On 0 speed)
Overall I didn't expect major changes but it's definitely an improvement on 2017, The debate will still go on but I think that PC version when modded could save this year's incarnation (cameras,tactics,licensing..etc)
Otherwise this won't last a month or two before becoming a repetitive mess just like the last versions
ramgamer
La Liga
- 22 July 2013
- Team
- fc barcelona
Lol @swan dive
Bond!JamesBond!
PS2 PES Greatness
in order for sports games to have long life they need to be competitive and rewarding. So easy goals and unrewarding shooting isn't the answer. Hard to hit that sweet strike is what makes you jump for joy when you do.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
The difficulty will get tougher,wait for the scripting palQuick thoughts after only a couple of games, full manual, topplayer and superstar:
+without doubt the best pes in terms of weight of players, realistic slower speed of gameplay, and ball physics. With improved animations, this game looks and feels absolutely brilliant
+Shooting has changed... ive skyed quite a few when powering up the bar, and could never ever do this in pes2017. More tap ins below keeper, as in realife, when limiting power on shots.. Didn't really get to see or test cpu shooting variation as I only played a couple of times.
+semi auto defence hugely improved.. keeps your player control on single player until you change... unlike last year, where it would automatically change for you. As it says in info, semi-auto only automatically changes your cursor when in attack now. In defence itll only change you for the real obvious ones, where a ball has been cleared, and your current controlled player is 50yards or so from ball.. will pick nearest player.
+very noticeable that cpu doesn't madly pressure you as in superstar in pes2017. they hold back and wait for you to come forward.. they manage space better, and defence way smarter rather than the kinda mindless pressing they did in pes2017.
-hard to find any negatives so far, but I did find top player way too easy..and superstar is a bit easier than last year.. but that's hard to tell with limited gametime.
-player positioning could be tightened.
-daytime grass still could look better.. nighttime has improved.. but not daytime for me.
All I can say, is I'm very happy with the offline mode... cannot wait to play this a bit more in a day or two after my move.
oh,,,give 'beginner' a try, to sorta do a free training mode, with crosses etc.. this was fun particularly with crossing practice and r2 curling shot practice... some nice shooting animations introduced to first time shots as well
Like you I'm very happy with this game,and nice to see a fellow gamer actually agreeing on the shooting,it's different,and better.
One thing I would like to see is more freedom of the power bar,filling up slower will deffo get shots off in a different way
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- Team
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Will be interesting to see how some of these claims made, positive and negative, hold up over the next couple of weeks.
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- Team
- PES4 Partick Thistle
How many games of the PES 2018 demo have you played?
shez
League 1
- 19 August 2005
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
You and I are going to get along just fine. This very very true. Here's the worst part, and the part that nags at me for years.
PES is so good. So refined. On the ball. Off the ball though...is the culprit...to everything.
Think about it.
NO fouls? Of course, there are no bodies to go through, the midfield is bypassed. The defensive third is not created because there is no numbers built in defense or attack.
With the collision detection that PES 18 seems to have, it would be incredible to have more bodies in front. There aren't though.
Kundera said:
Noted, and agreed. It's tough to provide insight on an out of context picture. I will say though, you will see this multiple times in a match. I see it every single match in PES. Every single time. If PES is supposed to play modern football positioning, then they need to focus on less of the premise and more on the execution. Where the premise is "Let's get the full backs involved", then they need to focus on the execution of placing the fullbacks, but not forget the role of the center backs.
Kundera said:
I definitely agree with this. I know they (KONAMI) are working hard at this. I just don't think the answer is advanced instructions. The problem with accepting this as a fundamental is that there are too many variables in this video game that counteract common sense.
- Player roles
- Attack/Defense
- Player Styles
- Fluid formations
- Advanced instructions
Kundera said:P.S.: I went back to your snaps and I saw something that I would like to comment on: you say that is a mistake in team positioning that there are four defenders on the halfway line when the team is attacking on the other line. This is a common trait on different teams from different eras and from different levels of competition. For instance, I would say a bunch of managers would agree with that positioning because the other team has not withdrawn their offensive trio, which is another common trait. So defenders are defending as high as they because of offside rule and with one extra man against the rival's attack. That was a fundamental not so long ago and that's why it was common to say that just one of the two full back could attack (It was when attacks were composed by two strikers and not three or four).
This is an example of the excuses we give, which validates the positioning. It's why there is no change. I know IRL that that is a manager's standpoint. However, work with me here, when you play with your mates, do you go to these depths? No. Noone does. The fundamentals are simple, and natural.
PES overcomplicate that simplicity of defensive positioning as a base. If they can't achieve the base, then there should be no reason we see such advanced out of positions.
The fact that wrong positioning prevails more in the game than the simple base fundamentals is enough reason to validate that they still need work in the off the ball positioning.
I know I've said this before, and just in case, but I am so particular about this because of all the A, B, C, D everything amazing on the ball. It's another fantastic possibility of PES - and the on the ball is again the incredible contributor to that.
The fear is that PES 16/17 lost that on-the-ball beauty because off-the-ball was so off the mark that games started to feel the same, and space dominated the themes of matches. Pair that up with less than excitable shooting - and it's a real sad thing.
There is a game that does this base positioning right. It's only when it goes in motion that things start to go in the wrong direction. Don't ask which - but here is a screenshot of its radar:
DuduBR9
Champions League
- 25 July 2010
I played few games as Barcelona against Borussia on superstar level.
Most boring CPU AI I ever play in any football game ever.
Terrible, simply terrible. Firsf time I consider not buying a PES game since PES 2009 AND 2010 wich were the only two pes games that I didnt buy, so donte come here saying bullshit that I am a troll or anything.
Wtf is going on here...
Most boring CPU AI I ever play in any football game ever.
Terrible, simply terrible. Firsf time I consider not buying a PES game since PES 2009 AND 2010 wich were the only two pes games that I didnt buy, so donte come here saying bullshit that I am a troll or anything.
Wtf is going on here...
ramgamer
La Liga
- 22 July 2013
- Team
- fc barcelona
For me the big negative is the way the shooting just feels disconnected to my joy of scoring add to that the space on the field, its like the game is telling u, here is space exploit the wings with ur speedy players something i didn t feel in pes 5, its just this aspect of the game since pes 2016 that feels totally off, the fact that any player s shot in this game feels the same, if shooting is fixed i d be very happy with thr game
klashman69
Fight the Power!
- 28 November 2007
Dortmunds tactics on the demo are atrocious is whats going on Dudu.
I played 3 games as them vs Inter, lost all three on superstar vs Inter.
Counter Attack
Long Pass
Player Support 1
Defensive line is set to 1
Compactness set to 1
Yet have a 3-4-3 formation which is designed for possession football and a HIGH line thank you very much. I just think its sheer incompetence and Konami made errors in inputting their tactics since the settings they gave dortmund make no sense whatsoever and are actually contradictory.
For me the game is good after 4 games, i've lost every match on superstar which is good its a challenge, again more for the locked tactics and i haven't explored the limits at all, i'm getting used to this very different loose feel compared to the last 4 games, these changes have really made the game feel completely different to 2017 which takes a while to get used to.
Main issue bar the dreadful tactics are crossing is overpowered as per usual like the last 2-3 years. Some awful Goalkeeping at times.
Defensive lines in general are too far back so every match feels like a pre-season friendly rather than a competitive game.
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Good to read your impressions Klash i agree also what is going on with Argentina's 424 tactic just terrible.
josemiguel_miuccio
League 1
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