PES 2014 Discussion Thread

[TheSteeeeels]

All this talk about player awareness this and player awareness that, catch up bugs...don't you realize the official demo is gonna be released next week (11th)..what is the point of being hyper critical of something that isn't even relative.
Its almost like going back and playing PES6 and complaining that the isn't 360 degree movement.

Especially when people who actually played the official demo clearly stated that awareness was improved among other things..

After the 11th you can be how hyper critical you want..

don't you realise this is a pes forum and people are going to discuss, praise and criticise the demo of the game?

 

[Bitter Rivals]

http://www.twitch.tv/bitter_rivals/c/2862436

Ai double scissor kick

 

[TheSteeeeels]

CAVEAT: I haven't played the demo so I can't comment too deeply on PES 2014 specifically.

However, traditionally, holding R1 is never enough to outrun a defender (especially on Top Player/Super Star) simply because of the fact that the offensive player has to control a ball while sprinting. This is why PES has always had the 'knock on' function (R1/R2), which allows you to knock the ball a large distance ahead before sprinting to meet it. The result is faster sprinting on the ball, which can be used to give fast players (with good ball control stats) more of an edge vs defenders.
The tactical problem with knock on is that you lose control for the entire period that the ball is away from the player's feet. It's a very deep mechanic that requires a great deal of thought, practice and good judgement.

On the other hand...

It's also possible that the catch up script exists (as it did in PES 2011) and everything I said above won't do jack shit.

it definitely exists in some form, and it is substantially detrimental. i never feel as if i can leave a man for dead. it's like i can beat my man with a quick burst but he will always be on my back again within milliseconds, it's in these situations (as someone from here worded it) "i feel i have no other option but to pass the ball"

 

[Chuny]

^^ Agree ^^

 

[chrissimao]

don't you realise this is a pes forum and people are going to discuss, praise and criticise the demo of the game?

KONAMI: I dont like this demo it isn't ready. "Hey TheSteeeeels we gonna have to push back the demo...improve it a bit ok"

TheSteeeeels: sigh......Ok konami

Later that day TheSteeeeels stumbles across the demo in the trash.....

TheSteeeeels: What is this! player awareness sucks, bugs and glitches galore! KONAMI why you always do this to meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

 

[TheSteeeeels]

KONAMI: I dont like this demo it isn't ready. "Hey TheSteeeeels we gonna have to push back the demo...improve it a bit ok"

TheSteeeeels: sigh......Ok konami

Later that day TheSteeeeels stumbles across the demo in the trash.....

TheSteeeeels: What is this! player awareness sucks, bugs and glitches galore! KONAMI why you always do this to meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

don't know why you're painting me as someone who's over-the-top angry. i, along with many others, are simply discussing, commenting on, praising and critising the demo of pes 2014 in the pes 2014 thread. here's an idea: if you don't want to read about the leaked demo then stay clear of this thread until 11th september because until then there will be many many people and posts detailing the positives and negatives of the leaked demo. peace

 

[chrissimao]

don't know why you're painting me as someone who's over-the-top angry. i, along with many others, are simply discussing, commenting on, praising and criticizing the demo of pes 2014 in the pes 2014 thread. here's an idea: if you don't want to read about the leaked demo then stay clear of this thread until 11th september because until then there will be many many people and posts detailing the positives and negatives of the leaked demo. peace

Maybe i should take your advice

i have the leaked demo but im patiently waiting for the 11th to draw proper opinions and thoughts, i guess some ppl are not as patient as i am..No hard feelings mate, i hope.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

The reason is, the defender should have cleared the ball, 2º a goalkeeper would not stay in the goal line wayting for a shoot, he would rush for it, if no to catch it at least to cut space, and 3º, A keeper must cover the first post always, and do not stay away from it and defend trowing their body into that side.

It was cool if it happened once n a while, but that happens 90% of the times you shoot in that position.

I can understand your frustration but:
1)It's very easy for a defender in that situation to misjudge the flight of the ball. It's hard to tell in slow motion and from that replay angle. I was a sweeper and centre back for 20 years. You never charge at the ball for risk of it bouncing over your head to an unmarked striker and you don't stick your head across the ball for risk of deflecting it into your own net.

Not to say that was the exact scenario here but for some reason on video games, people always say "that shouldn't have happened" but it's really the animation that doesn't translate well rather than the scenario. Because a lot of those scenario's DO happen in real matches but there's not enough animations in a game to reflect that the defender was beaten by the ball rather than his brain.

2) You have the option to press the button and bring the keeper out. If you see the defender has been beaten, you press the button so the keeper narrows the angle. And to think that every single keeper comes off their line in that situation is wishful thinking again sorry. If you have defenders inside the penalty box, why would the keeper have been pushed up off his line.

Ok, the keepers in PES can cover the near post better but we need to assess everything in each situation. I don't think on that goal he had time to rush out because of where the defenders were and how little time (in real time, not slow motion) he would have had to come out.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

To be fair you never really got a change to accelerate with ribery cuz of the touch after the dribble..the defender got beat yes but accelerated of on his turn..and got back. The idea is right (logical) but its a little rough..

I play alot of football to know..many times i beat a guy and he comes back at me running "harder" (faster). You should have swiveled and turned him, use his forward momentum against him.

I have to agree with this. Once Ribery beats the player, he isn't sprinting, he's just jogging around with close control. If Ribery had knocked the ball on and went flat out and got caught up straight away, then it's a real problem.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

So that Monotlivo goal scored by Bitter Rivals from distance looked floaty to me but then I checked the last camera angle and it looks to have been deflected, hence why it looped up in the air. Nice

 

[TheSteeeeels]

Maybe i should take your advice

i have the leaked demo but im patiently waiting for the 11th to draw proper opinions and thoughts, i guess some ppl are not as patient as i am..No hard feelings mate, i hope.

i am definitely not patient enough to wait. end of the day i want to play and talk about the once great that is pes, and i do like having an 'early' look (last year the 1st demo released in JULY, so that is where my expectations were set for this years demo also). i'll no doubt be deleting my leaked demo a good few days before the official one so as to retain at least some of that fresh feeling. and no hard feelings at all mate

 

[ss4_goku]

ah, so those that have praised the demo started to play it too often and are now forgetting the fact that this was leaked and can't hold back in pointing out all the flaws.

Just a small point about the cards and why they are necessary. Player individuality is different from stats (and it just won't make sense to make more stats cause sometimes its a simple on off thing). For example, while Seedorf and Owen both have great shooting accuracy and power, one shoots from outside the box and one shoots from inside. How to differentiate both players without a card? Let's say that they have the same shooting power, accuracy and technique stat, the card will help differentiate the type of shots that are made. There's no point in making a stat out of it cause how great a player shoots from outside can be then adjusted by those shooting stats themselves. Now for the skill cards like 360 turn, flip-flap, while almost all professional players can do it, the question is DO they do it? It is again a simple on and off (how well they do it can be done in technique stats) as how often does Vidic do a 360 turn. As great of a skill as Nani has, have you seen him do a flip-flap in the game? It is not the technique that he does, and that's why cards are necessary.

 

[TheSteeeeels]

Just a small point about the cards and why they are necessary. Player individuality is different from stats (and it just won't make sense to make more stats cause sometimes its a simple on off thing). For example, while Seedorf and Owen both have great shooting accuracy and power, one shoots from outside the box and one shoots from inside. How to differentiate both players without a card? Let's say that they have the same shooting power, accuracy and technique stat, the card will help differentiate the type of shots that are made. There's no point in making a stat out of it cause how great a player shoots from outside can be then adjusted by those shooting stats themselves.

i agree. but those are not the cards (traits) i was referring to (maybe could've been clearer there). those are purely AI specific cards that have no bearing when an actual human is in control. so yes, those are fine imo.

Now for the skill cards like 360 turn, flip-flap, while almost all professional players can do it, the question is DO they do it? It is again a simple on and off (how well they do it can be done in technique stats) as how often does Vidic do a 360 turn. As great of a skill as Nani has, have you seen him do a flip-flap in the game? It is not the technique that he does, and that's why cards are necessary.

how often does vidic dribble the pitch? shoot from 40yards? mistime 10 tackles a game? get sent off? do ANY tricks? well, currently you can do all these things with him in pes because you are in control. it is not a question of does he do it, it is a question of can he do it and how well

 

[kgx2thez]

ah, so those that have praised the demo started to play it too often and are now forgetting the fact that this was leaked and can't hold back in pointing out all the flaws.

Just a small point about the cards and why they are necessary. Player individuality is different from stats (and it just won't make sense to make more stats cause sometimes its a simple on off thing). For example, while Seedorf and Owen both have great shooting accuracy and power, one shoots from outside the box and one shoots from inside. How to differentiate both players without a card? Let's say that they have the same shooting power, accuracy and technique stat, the card will help differentiate the type of shots that are made. There's no point in making a stat out of it cause how great a player shoots from outside can be then adjusted by those shooting stats themselves. Now for the skill cards like 360 turn, flip-flap, while almost all professional players can do it, the question is DO they do it? It is again a simple on and off (how well they do it can be done in technique stats) as how often does Vidic do a 360 turn. As great of a skill as Nani has, have you seen him do a flip-flap in the game? It is not the technique that he does, and that's why cards are necessary.

I see it both ways. Yes, stats would make it hard to differentiate unless you added some new ones, mainly a "tendency" rating akin to NBA 2K for shooting outside the box vs in the box.
IMO it's easier to just implement it via the card system.

I think it was FIFA 12 where almost every club tried to dribble the ball into the back of the net unless they had the long distance shot trait. Made the game very predictable and incredibly boring IMO.

 

[nicknick]

player movement in the leaked demo is much slower than in real life, in my opinion

you missed the worst one (though it may only be for manual players)

- awful player awareness. players either don't react to your pass or run past the ball altogether. it makes intricate midfield play close to impossible

I think jenkey's tool that adds animation boost will really help

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

When is European release date? I just found out the Australian release is August 26.

 

[ss4_goku]

how often does vidic dribble the pitch? shoot from 40yards? mistime 10 tackles a game? get sent off? do ANY tricks? well, currently you can do all these things with him in pes because you are in control. it is not a question of does he do it, it is a question of can he do it and how well

See, that's the part which I love PES. While you are in control, you control that player...not just a footballer. I want the player to react like himself. When I control CR7, I would want him to act like CR7 and not Messi cause they're different. If that player will not act such a way in real life, I do not want him to act like that in the game. That's where the individualism is lost in the other game (in my opinion) because it gives the controller too much freedom and everyone becomes everyone. Just the name and face are different. (On a completely unrelated note, if you do want to do tricks with players without those cards, you can...it'll just end up going horribly wrong)

*edit*
Japanese Release date Sept 30th:

 

[TheSteeeeels]

See, that's the part which I love PES. While you are in control, you control that player...not just a footballer. I want the player to react like himself. When I control CR7, I would want him to act like CR7 and not Messi cause they're different. If that player will not act such a way in real life, I do not want him to act like that in the game. That's where the individualism is lost in the other game (in my opinion) because it gives the controller too much freedom and everyone becomes everyone. Just the name and face are different. (On a completely unrelated note, if you do want to do tricks with players without those cards, you can...it'll just end up going horribly wrong)

this makes no practical sense. it is impossible to fully replicate a player when a human (the gamer) is in control, because you are always overriding the actions of that player. everything you do is because you are doing it, not the player. if you want these players to mimic their real-life counter parts perfectly then put it on AI vs AI (which still wouldn't be accurate) or ideally just watch a real match.

oh, and to address your "because they don't] do it, they shouldn't be able to" point: if vidic did a 360 spin this weekend, would that mean he would have to be given the 360 card in pes? how many times does the player need to do the trick until he deserves the card? ........ or, like i say, does it just make more sense to realise that any professional footballer (or 9 year old child) can do a 360 spin and that it should be down to stats to determine how well each player can do it?

 

[ss4_goku]

Yes, you are in control. but you are in control of THAT player. I guess this is where our perception of the game differs and will not result in any side agreeing with the other. In simple terms, I like to play with that player's mindset in mind, to use what's best from that player to win. Thus, i hated it when my friends (back in PES5 days) would put the goalie up as striker, and everyone out of position because their stats don't differentiate enough. The jump, reaction and kick power of the gk meant that he headed in many goals and was a decent striker, which would've been false (and thus cards were introduced).

Now onto the "how well" the player does it, the stat does play a part into it. If they have a tendency to do the trick, Konami will give them the card (or if you feel they should have it, that's why there's the edit mode). Now how well they do it depends on their technical stats, their composure stats (and having those cards means that the player does those specific tricks better). The rest is up on the timing of you doing the trick. Again, in the game, if you take vidic to do a 360 without the card, he can do it if not pressured, but when pressured, he'd fail because he doesn't have the card nor does he have the stats for it. The card is a means of saying they have mastered that trick and are more likely to pull it off in actual game situations.

 

[Xav1]

this makes no practical sense. it is impossible to fully replicate a player when a human (the gamer) is in control, because you are always overriding the actions of that player. everything you do is because you are doing it, not the player. if you want these players to mimic their real-life counter parts perfectly then put it on AI vs AI (which still wouldn't be accurate) or ideally just watch a real match.

oh, and to address your "because they don't] do it, they shouldn't be able to" point: if vidic did a 360 spin this weekend, would that mean he would have to be given the 360 card in pes? how many times does the player need to do the trick until he deserves the card? ........ or, like i say, does it just make more sense to realise that any professional footballer (or 9 year old child) can do a 360 spin and that it should be down to stats to determine how well each player can do it?

I'm sorry but you sound like you have a beef. A really juicy beef, nonetheless. The words used seem to be a little, shall we say, charged? To me, and I could be totally wrong, it sounds like a discourse between two classmates where one hangs on every word of the other.. Maybe, I'm just tired.. Let me leave it alone..

 

[TheSteeeeels]

Yes, you are in control. but you are in control of THAT player. I guess this is where our perception of the game differs and will not result in any side agreeing with the other. In simple terms, I like to play with that player's mindset in mind, to use what's best from that player to win. Thus, i hated it when my friends (back in PES5 days) would put the goalie up as striker, and everyone out of position because their stats don't differentiate enough. The jump, reaction and kick power of the gk meant that he headed in many goals and was a decent striker, which would've been false (and thus cards were introduced).

i generally like to play with players in pes as they play in real life also, and this heavily ties into stats -- as in, the better the long passer the more i will long passes; the better the dribbler the more i will dribble etc. i do this too. but it doesn't exclusively support your argument at all. like i said, you are still in control, not the player. what if the gamer is terrible at pes but plays with barcelona, will the game say "don't worry chap, this is barcelona, no matter how bad you are at the game we'll make messi and iniesta do something awesome because that's what they would do in real life! again, your argument makes no sense.

as for the goalkeeper thing, again, this is a stat problem. if attacking instincts, heading accuracy, technique etc. were implemented properly then it wouldn't be a problem and a keeper playing striker would be a stupid thing to do.

Now onto the "how well" the player does it, the stat does play a part into it. If they have a tendency to do the trick, Konami will give them the card (or if you feel they should have it, that's why there's the edit mode). Now how well they do it depends on their technical stats, their composure stats (and having those cards means that the player does those specific tricks better). The rest is up on the timing of you doing the trick. Again, in the game, if you take vidic to do a 360 without the card, he can do it if not pressured, but when pressured, he'd fail because he doesn't have the card nor does he have the stats for it. The card is a means of saying they have mastered that trick and are more likely to pull it off in actual game situations.

erm. you've lost me.

"Now how well they do it depends on their technical stats"

so it is based on stats you say.... so what does the card actually do?

"The card is a means of saying they have mastered that trick and are more likely to pull it off in actual game situations."

so someone with 0 technique and balance but with a 360spin card can be a master of the spin? is that correct? i'm genuinely intrigued by this, the more you try and describe it the more nonsensical it seems

 

[TheSteeeeels]

I'm sorry but you sound like you have a beef. A really juicy beef, nonetheless. The words used seem to be a little, shall we say, charged? To me, and I could be totally wrong, it sounds like a discourse between two classmates where one hangs on every word of the other.. Maybe, I'm just tired.. Let me leave it alone..

i said something he disagrees with, so he said something to counter what i said, so i then said something to further establish and detail my stance. it's called discussion bro. i think youre just tired!

 

[ss4_goku]

If i remember correctly, you require a certain stat level to get those cards. Quite simply put, the cards mean that player has a tendency to do the trick

 

[*aLe]

In my opinion some cards are useless while others are pretty necessary.
The ones that mean that a player can do something (like pinpoint pass, if I recall correctly) are useless because abilities should be achieved via stats.
The ones that mean that a player, given a situation, is likely to do something (e.g. box to box midfielder) are one of the key elements of the game and should not be touched.

To show what I mean, every player can run. With or without the ball.
But not all the players run from one box to the other, and back, and forth, and back, and forth, for all the match. That's why cards are needed: to model behaviour, not stats.

My 2 cents anyway.

 

[Lami]

Ignore him. He was here before under different names.

Should've banned him earlier.

 

[ss4_goku]

So I've been trying to hang around Japanese sites and forums to see if they have any news, and i found none whatsoever!!! They're not only tight-lipped in Europe, but even at home, Konami are not saying anything.

Are there really no changes to the game modes thats why there's nothing to say? Did they completely focus on game-play and visuals and did nothing about how ML has been the same for so long? The only news we have with regards to game modes is that you can switch clubs and you can manage country. No news on Asian Leagues, only SA and Europe which has been unchanged. If so, when you switch leagues, will the D2 switch with you, or are you unable to be relegated after? Both are devastating as if you switch clubs, the league becomes either stagnant, or you get Leeds Utd playing in the Spanish League, and when you change once more, Bolton moves with you to Italy.

 

[Lami]

There is a fake Asian league btw.

 

[RockyJJP]

16 days gentlemen!!!! I remember when I was counting down from 90 days. We have a special game on our hands this year. PS. Has anyone tries 2 vs 2 on the demo. It's a nightmare with frame rate. Completely unplayable. Very unfortunate.

 

[ss4_goku]

I'm just wondering how that works. You create a fake asian league with the teams already in AFC CL or from scratch and those teams will take up some CL space? I'm just thinking how it'd be implemented. I can see that many of those teams in AFC CL will be like the "Other European Teams" which we only play on friendlies or in EL or CL, but with only one league and so few teams, i fail to see how it would be fun after a year. Still lacks the diversity of the EU and SA leagues. Hopefully, it will be better implemented in 2015 or in the Japanese version if you purchase the J League pack (like 2013)

 

[Lami]

I'm just wondering how that works. You create a fake asian league with the teams already in AFC CL or from scratch and those teams will take up some CL space? I'm just thinking how it'd be implemented. I can see that many of those teams in AFC CL will be like the "Other European Teams" which we only play on friendlies or in EL or CL, but with only one league and so few teams, i fail to see how it would be fun after a year. Still lacks the diversity of the EU and SA leagues. Hopefully, it will be better implemented in 2015 or in the Japanese version if you purchase the J League pack (like 2013)

Asked Adam before if J-League DLC was possible for PES and how technical is it to have them used in ML. Still awaiting response. Just being hopeful.