Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......
I'd also strongly contest the validity of your appraisal of PES 12;
It's all subjective, so what is valid to me may not be valid to you, obviously. Even though some may hate the game, others find numerous positives, and the only thing that annoys me is the tendency on this forum over the last few months on at the moment to vilify those that actually enjoy the game and find positives in it as accepting sub-standard gameplay, kissing the backsides of konami or simply becoming part of their pr machine.
More fluid - yes, more sense of inertia - no. It's gone backwards from the previous year with removal of Acceleration/Agility, and the introduction of that really gimmicky 'speed burst'. The sense of pace is accurate, but they really failed to distinguish the differences in the weight and momentum from different players. The likes of Gattusso and Nesta are laughably agile.
The speed burst is not gimmicky, it happens in real life. Players can accelerate quickly from a standing start or even while mobile, the inclusion this year has actually left me wondering why it hasn't been implemented all this time in previous versions.
The dribbling remains an achievement for me, starting with PES 2009's d-pad contextual dribbling system, they have refined it with each version and arrived at a brilliant depiction of the art of dribbling. Dribbling really is an art with this game, I can minutely place my player's feet where ever I want with the well programmed footplanting, it is intuitive and I can feel weight shifts, momentum, leg placements, inertia, and even more with or without R2. With the better dribblers it is even more pronounced, just like in real life.
I don't know about you but I can feel the differences between players. People asked for more responsive players and they delivered. Pes 2011 does have more weight to the players but it hasn't gone completely from PES 2012, they are professional footballers, so there has to be some degree of professionalism. Gattuso and Nesta are slower and more cumbersome compared to some players, try ones like Mertesacker and you'll also feel it. Now whether they could do even more to further the differences is another point, but, it is a myth to say that all players control the same, I've personally noticed subtle and larger differences at play. Not all players control the same.
Disagree, there seems less skill and anticipation involved than in PES 2011 where you really had to plot out your movements.
For me better and more fluid 360 movement, increased dribbling controls and intuitiveness plus refined defensive hold up play make for improved 1-on-1 situations.
One of my main complaints with the game. Not only has this eradicated the level-playing field online, the ambiguous implementation of any stat recognition is a massive step back. The likes of Xavi, Riquleme, D'Alessandro.... are nowhere near as masterful in passing as before. It really distorts the emphasis toward more pacey, tricky players and away from the technically gifted ones I mentioned.
Zero passing is for me a triumph. I didn't want konami to go down the fifa route with pass assistance settings, Seabass had a 'freedom of passing' vision with 2011 but didn't fully realize it. I thinkg they've have achieved it with 2012''s zero passing, but chickened out and thought it would be too hard for the majority to have that one standard of free passing, so they added assist options in order to placate more casual fans and those who preferred more assistance. They should have kept it as zero, one system.
Ambiguous stat interpretation? I think what you said counts for assisted passing, where the stat differences are less, but not for zero! On zero at least, Xavi passes like Xavi, D'alessandro like D'alessandro, the better passers have more of an increase in accuracy and pass speed, with the likelihood of a good pass much greater. I can really use power selection and angles depending on foot placement and balls physics which can change in a split second to make amazing passes with the above, and I'm more confident I can pull them off due to their amazing passing stats.
They've combined this with the player's freedom in directing, but it is not too free, stats DO have a say in the nature of the pass otherwise you wouldn't need stats and all the skill would depend on the player alone, like it does in FIFA manual. You call it a massive step back, I call it a massive step forward. I can't go back and play the previous PES games now that I have tasted the combined freedom and stat based zero assistance passing of 2012.
Would agree with this and is by far the biggest improvement over PES 11. Still yet to see the diagonal or dummy runs we were promised though...
Dummy runs happen to take away defenders, and diagonal runs happen also. You can even see them happening on the trailer demonstrations for the game, which shows in game footage. That is not just PR that was dropped for the full game, I have personally witnessed it happening. A lot of it is to do with team style settings that can be tweaked and adjusted like player support, also the individuality in stats, such as a player's attacking level and his teamwork stat, some cards such as incisive run, free roaming might increase the likelihood etc.
Then number on here that have given up playing online is testament to their cock-up of MLO. The system last year was adequate yet they made superstars even more obtainable, and the introduction of team types only reduces the presence of individuality further.
The superstar problem is a separate issue, but specifically the Team Types give you more options and increase individuality in a teamwide sense, and I rotate team types to focus on varied playstyles periodically.
In real life a manager can look at all the individual traits of players in his team, and set them up to play how he wants them to. For example a technical passing game (e.g. Arsenal/Swansea), where all players practice and emphasize first touch ball control, passing accuracy, dribble accuracy etc. with penalties for other stats.
Or he can set them up like Stoke and play a physical game, using superior body balance to battle and outmuscle/shove players off the ball, and use superior jumping and heading abilities to dominate setpieces.
He can use speed legitimately to play in a fast and direct style reminiscent of Arsenal's Invincibles, with fast counterattacking, getting the ball quickly from end to end, or using the wings to well to emphasize speed. It can be abused by players online in pes, but this type of gameplay has a function in real life, and can be countered within the game, just like in real life.
Or he can just play a balanced style that incorporates a lot of elements. It's all there in PES.
Disagree. The changes they've made are cosmetic, and only use to aggravate (sick of skipping repetitive cutscenes or ignoring nonsensical requests from players). Not only that, but they actually removed depth by getting rid of both individual training and any thorough search system.
Master league, in some respects depth has been removed, in some it has been added. I personally think the training type adds more 'team' depth, for example for the next couple of weeks you may want to increase technical ability to improve technique, but then switch to conditioning to help recover, physical to get stuck in when necessary etc. But I can understand your individual training complaint. The search system is the same as in MLO, you can do advanced searches for anything, specific stat abilities, positions etc.
Again, as I said before, the removal of playing cards and stats has meant both passing and dribbling are less individualistic than before.
Just because some cards have been removed does not mean individuality as a whole is compromised. I'd like the defensive cards back too, but that doesn't now mean all defenders play the same. Some stat have been merged, some stats are new, but taken as a whole, those things you mentioned don't not sweep away the entire ethos of individuality that has always been in PES. Are you looking closely enough if you feel that all teams and all players play the same with no individuality whatsoever?
PES 12 has a lot going for it, but for every step forward it's taken two back IMO. I've mildly enjoyed it in bursts this year, particularly offline against the CPU (which I believe has improved in abundance). But it really is unacceptably inadequate in a number of areas, some of which are only down to some really questionable design decisions.
As I mentioned, one man's meat is another man's poison, so I actually feel sorry for the Konami PES team because they must be thinking who they are supposed to listen to! Last year I enjoyed the more pronounced weight of the players, but so many complained of a lack of responsiveness. Which was fine to me. Now they've added more responsiveness, some want the more pronounced weight back, which hasn't gone completely, just that it was probably more pronounced in the previous game. I also enjoyed the slower paced, defensive focus similar to PES 5, this year is more like PES 6's shift to favour an attacking focus, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game and that it has no balance whatsoever between attack and defence, because they've also refined the hold up play and defensive ai which is now better than it was in 2011. It might be unfortunately easier to exploit (increased responsiveness+speed merchants etc.) but you're not at a complete loss if you master the game.
You can't please everyone, naturally, but there has to be a middle ground somewhere, or we'll all go crazy! For me with any complaint/flaw/bug I wonder, even as infuriating as it may well be, a genuine grievance which the PES team seemed sloppy on, or certainly could have done better on, throughout the overall vision and achievements of the game, how much is this really really really affecting me? Is it a game-destroying-game-breaker that makes me want to scream, howl, and play fifa, ditching pes completely or can I live with it, manage it through gameplay and strategic choices and enjoy the game's good points, even in bursts as you've said Danny? Without wishing to patronize anyone, it is the old cliched glass half full/half empty notion. Most of the major complaints I see on here aren't gamebreakers for me personally post-patch, some big ones need to be definitely addressed and shouldn't be overlooked but as I keep repeating there is enjoyment to be had there, if you want it.
Whatever they do with 2013, it'll get criticism, and praise, but how many critics will be willing to give a fair balance to the positives and enjoy the game, not make it out as another terrible game from Konami who are used to producing terrible games and only make terrible games. In fact, there's no point looking forward to 2013 according to some, as it'll probably be a terrible game...
....weather...
I wonder what *thunder KRAKOOM* sound is suggesting, I'm hoping for big surprises in gameplay, I mean like going full manual
