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PES 2011 Discussion thread

romagnoli said:
I've not seen any bicycle kicks connect with the ball, so the frequency is not a problem (the animation is balls though, there's no winding up or sense of heft to the player as you can see in the bids). I have had a number of rainbows done against me now though - generally in pairs.

The most pressing issue for me based on today's play is how players can just pass through other players. It's so frustrating as someone who generally tries to build on solid defensive play to see a packed defence just get cut apart by the most basic forward passes. It's that general indifference to a loose ball that's responsible. I really hope that's one of the things they're fixing.

What does everyone have their pressing set to? I seem to be having no joy whether on 13 or 9.
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Depends on the formation and the other team style factors. If I'm playing a compact 4-3-3 I'd press more than if I was playing a 4-4-2 midfield diamond, moderately spaced out.
 
romagnoli said:
As I said above, I beat him in the final. It's not like he got there without beating other players. He could well have beaten me if he'd been a bit more intelligent about his play but still a gamer.

I fundamentally disagree that freedom to move your player or instruct what type of pass you want him to attempt is arcadey or non hardcore. There is no reason why attribute based realism and the ability of the game to respond to your button presses or give the game less hand wavy instructions are mutually exclusive. I agree that 2011 currently seems more accessible but I don't see it as being because of freedom of movement but down to a disparity between how the attackers can control their movements compared to the defenders (in the beta). There's also too little adverse effect when pingpong passing - it's a lot better than the opposition but it's still very easy to pass forward with little penalty in directional passing provided the target is within 15-20 yards or so. It definitely feels a bit more accessible than 2010 but it's more because it's forgiving towards the attacking play in its current guise. There's zero reason why being able to move a player in more directions or be able to aim a pass more specifically is unrealistic or non-hardcore; it's just a question of balancing the game and representing attributes in ways that took care of themselves in the past purely by not existing.

That said it's a point that people will always fall one side or the other about. For me you have to be able to tell your players how you want them to play or what you want them to do. The more you can articulate before the match then the less you should have to do during the match. As long as we aren't able to tell our team exactly how we'd like them to play and see that succeed or fail based on their play then I will always want to be able to tell a player What I want him to do with more rather than less detail.
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I beg to differ Rom, having more AI assistance based soley on the statistical variables of players is taking it out of the users hands and far deeper into the players skillset. This alone makes the game more simulated, it has to, and it does. I'm not talking mis-directed passes that end up going to a player that wasnt intended, I'm speaking more about accuracy of slide-rule passes, the weight of the pass,the direction, and the speed. I can apply power now to passes on the deck, and I like that option, I really do, but I'm sacrificing the technique and stats to do this, to an extent. It is still apparent that stats are being utilised, but it isnt the ultimate deciding factor like it is in PES 10. Players with a high level of passing technique, like Gerrard and Xavi, have the confidence in their ability in real life to ping a pass along the deck, over 30-40 yards, with strong pace. They dont worry about losing accuracy by giving the pass more purchase, as they are confident in their ability, lesser players will keep it more simple and reduce the amount of mustard on same pass. Thats how it is, thats how it works.

I wasnt trying to be detrimental with my post, so please dont take it the wrong way. I prefer this new system, but if you search way back in this thread, you will find many instances of me saying exactly the same thing, and this was well before I played the game. I know what I'm talking about Rom, and thats how it is, and I do think it's for the better.

As a quick example, my brother plays with Ajax on PES 2010, he played a 30 yard through-ball hard along the deck last night with Lodiero to play in Suarez, the weight, speed and direction was all down to Lodiero's stats, and it was the best pass played all-night. Those killer passes were very few and far between all-night, which is very realistic. I sat and thought about it, and realised this is the type of unique 100% stat related pass that I will miss. I can make that same pass with a few of the good players on my team on PES 2011, due to the added control and extra power, I can apply myself. Obviously there were many attempted throughballs that didnt come close to reaching the mark, some not even in the right direction, or the intended player. In the past you can wave those off to poor vision from the players we are using, which are all from non-premium teams. After playing with the Freedom on PES 2011, these type of passes frustrated me, it's a double edged sword to an extent, and I know that. The differences are night and day for me, as is the concept.
 
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buzzyhead said:
Hi jimmy great informative post as usual, but this line seemed to worry me because i think pes2010 on top player wasnt that hard after you had put a fair few hours in. Maybe its a bit unfair of me just to single this part of your post, as in context with the rest of it i can see you are well up for 2011 but all the same it did concern me a little. :CONFUSE:
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All I meant is there is alot more AI assistance in PES 2010, especially on Top Player, and defences consequently are harder to break down, even more so with the pressure tactic. Also, you have less manual/semi-auto control which restricts you even more. I love PES 2011 though, it's a real refreshing change and a move forward with the times.
 
romagnoli said:
I fundamentally disagree that freedom to move your player or instruct what type of pass you want him to attempt is arcadey or non hardcore. There is no reason why attribute based realism and the ability of the game to respond to your button presses or give the game less hand wavy instructions are mutually exclusive.
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Agree, I bet the only people that actually use the manual passes in PES are the old PES lovers, the football brains. Just like with FIFA, the casual players will only use the assisted passes.

Also like Jon said in that video interview, the reason they lost so many fans was because after PES 5 they tried to capture more casual players/gamers (because they had all the "hardcore" football people). PES 2010 was the first stab at turning PES back to a game aimed at us again.

If they did aim for more casual people like Jimmy claims they do (I think), they would never grow again because PES was ONLY big because it was a game for hardcore people. The only way PES can get casual players too is by taking back all hardcore players so that it spreads by mouth that PES is the true football game (just like NBA2K). This is exactly what they are doing and I personally love it because EA just won't take the steps necessary to make it a football lover's dream come true (like PES 5 was).
 
Jimmy i sort of agree with you on PES 2010. I recently went back to it as well and still found it to be brilliant as ever, of course having spent an excessive amount of time over the last year getting to grips with its hidden depths. In some ways it is more hardcore and interesting, in some ways the PES 2011 beta beats it, but not in all. Both approaches are to be admired though, and of course both have their strengths and weaknesses.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
All I meant is there is alot more AI assistance in PES 2010, especially on Top Player, and defences consequently are harder to break down, even more so with the pressure tactic. Also, you have less manual/semi-auto control which restricts you even more. I love PES 2011 though, it's a real refreshing change and a move forward with the times.
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TBH jim i personally dont think sacrificing some of the players stats to give freedom is a bad thing, i know you like everything to be influenced by the stats which dont get me wrong i like too but its nice to give a bit more control back to the humans, because if we wanted total stats to determine games then we may as well stick the matches on spectator mode and put our feet up and have a beer.:LOL: so yeah jimmy like you say a refreshing change and a move forward with the times.

OH Demo oh Demo where forehart thou demo? :P
 
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I wouldn't change the new system, I really like it. It's two totally different games when you dig beneath the surface, just as Shorty states. And for us PES fanatics, it gives us something very new to learn and enjoy.
 
I'll skip the "I know what I'm talking about and that's how it is" comment as it's either not meant the way it sounds, or it is and is therefore not really worth the fingertip wear. But the point, Jimmy, is that the game is indeed more simulated if just left to digital button presses, but it does not have to be more of a simulation - even if it is so far on current evidence. For a start the additional angles added to the game and the ability to inform a player's run/movement by passing into spaces that PES 2010 wouldn't have given you in those situations is a big plus as far as getting the most realism of the game. It's one of the first points Jon Murphy made about early code, and I'm sure it's something you've noticed too. The play is consistently less about straight, predetermined lines from one player to the next and more about a series of possible lines from player to player.

If you leave everything else as is, then yes, attaching the digital method of using player attributes against an analogue system of weighting/directing a pass will indeed be less of a perfect match and therefore less precisely representative of a player's ability. Square peg, round hole.

The point I meant to make though is that the solution is to find and perfect an analogue system of using player attributes against the current weighting/aiming system. Round peg, round hole. Konami are the first to properly try this with their semi-assisted interpretation, and generally they've done fairly well, but there's still plenty of room for them to look at things over the coming years and get the passing to be more and more attribute dependent while still taking in our new, more explicit control inputs. Konami have chamfered the corners off of the peg and will hopefully have given it a good sanding by the time the full game goes gold, but the peg is not perfectly cylindrical yet - that will come over the years.


Edit: btw the PSN is HandOfBeadle. Tasteful, eh?
 
Then again I guess you could liken this semi approach to the shooting. We've always had control over power with the shooting, but if you filled up the power bar up to 3/4 with Paul Scholes and Gary Neville, the stats generally determine that Scholes will usually have the harder shot, of course with other factors taken into consideration, such as the player positioning and ball physics at that given moment of the shot.
 
Interesting what Jimmy is saying about the differences between PES 2010 and PES 2011!

Then again, Were comparing a full game to a beta :LOL: , the basis of what he's saying is. PES 2011 is better but dosen't have quite as much depth as PES 2010. Interesting indeed, But I'm sure PES 2011 will include all of the depth that was in PES 2010!

I wont be too pleased if it isn't brought over! Maybe it was even in the beta but the regular AI isn't showing it? Again, even with the gamescom videos, they are all on regular again right? I mean regular AI compared to Top player AI on PES 2010 was two very different games! Especially in the intelligence department!

Neuf made a point how in some of the gamescom videos the formations were very disorganized and that reminded me a lot of the regular AI in PES 2010 which was shit tbh!

romagnoli said:
As I said above, I beat him in the final. It's not like he got there without beating other players. He could well have beaten me if he'd been a bit more intelligent about his play but still a gamer.
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Well it's SOUNDS just like fifa 08 Online! The gamer method of playing will work (works in all games dosen't it?) vs decent/average players, but anyone who's pretty good and uses his brain can stop him!

Would you rather it be like FIFA 09 where it's pretty much completely impossible to be abusers playing football?
 
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romagnoli said:
I'll skip the "I know what I'm talking about and that's how it is" comment as it's either not meant the way it sounds, or it is and is therefore not really worth the fingertip wear. But the point, Jimmy, is that the game is indeed more simulated if just left to digital button presses, but it does not have to be more of a simulation - even if it is so far on current evidence. For a start the additional angles added to the game and the ability to inform a player's run/movement by passing into spaces that PES 2010 wouldn't have given you in those situations is a big plus as far as getting the most realism of the game. It's one of the first points Jon Murphy made about early code, and I'm sure it's something you've noticed too. The play is consistently less about straight, predetermined lines from one player to the next and more about a series of possible lines from player to player.

If you leave everything else as is, then yes, attaching the digital method of using player attributes against an analogue system of weighting/directing a pass will indeed be less of a perfect match and therefore less precisely representative of a player's ability. Square peg, round hole.

The point I meant to make though is that the solution is to find and perfect an analogue system of using player attributes against the current weighting/aiming system. Round peg, round hole. Konami are the first to properly try this with their semi-assisted interpretation, and generally they've done fairly well, but there's still plenty of room for them to look at things over the coming years and get the passing to be more and more attribute dependent while still taking in our new, more explicit control inputs. Konami have chamfered the corners off of the peg and will hopefully have given it a good sanding by the time the full game goes gold, but the peg is not perfectly cylindrical yet - that will come over the years.


Edit: btw the PSN is HandOfBeadle. Tasteful, eh?
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The 'I know what I'm talking about, thats how it is' was in reference to knowing and understanding what Konami tried to achieve, apologies if it came across any other way, not my intention.

As for the rest, great post, cant argue with that, and I fully appreciate what you said, and I totally agree. More angles is certainly better, and I also agree with a post you made a few days ago about the fact PES 2011 still needs more. But this is a step in the right direction, so I'm pleased with that.

Like I said earlier, as an attacking midfielder, my game has always been creativity and improvisation, whether that be with a clever pass, a cheeky trick/feint or dink. I actually love to see a great pass or a sublime first touch just as much as a stunning strike, maybe even more. It just comes with the territory I guess. I didnt mind seeing 5 incomplete through balls in PES 2010, dictated by CPU Ai, because it made it all that more special when one finally did come off. Since playing PES 2011, I still get that, but I have something more, I have error based on player stats and my own vision, or lack of as the case maybe. And I welcome that, in fact I love it.

I've been a bit slow getting grips with PES 2011, mainly due to having the old system engrained into me. It doesnt suprise that the more technical minded Fifa manual players are probably having a ball with the new PES system, because for the most part, it's a system they have been playing alongside for the best part of two years or more. But I welcome this challenge, it's fresh, and it's very rewarding.

Funnily enough I scored a goal last night that typified my current MLO team, and more so, the style in which I like to play it. Saurez has been my playmaker, the only player that has a high consistency with his defence splitting balls. I have so much confidence in him, and he rarely lets me down. If I see the pass, he finds it.

I recorded this last night, not for the goal, but simply for the pass, I'm a pass freak, and this was typical Suarez. :)

It was against a team of superstars, so it was nice to be able to beat them soundly with pure football. It starts off with a feint I just tried it off the cuff with Luque, I stood still trying to lure his player in, I held L2 and pressed right. In my head I was thinking a right footed step-over feint from the standing position (It's actually my favourite trick I saw in Fifa 09 ). He didnt do that, ( Although I have seen the CPU do it in 2011) but he did roll it to the right with the ball of his foot, which bought me a second. Luque then passed it to Saurez who took a touch and picked out the run of Saada with the most beautifully equistite, outside of the right foot, 'pulled' through-ball, weighted to perfection. From a realistic technical standpoint it was just stunning.

I say 'pulled', because he 'pulled' the power, there was no follow through on the leading leg. He leans his upper half of his body away, moving his body back over and to the left, creating the 'pulled' pass. This type of technique takes all the weight off the pass, and is very difficult to master in real life. You have to apply enough power for the pass to reach it's destination and not be easily intercepted, but also take weight off the pass so it isnt over hit. Zidane, Platini, Boniek, were all brilliant at this. Also, the animation for that type of pass is so flawless technically, its quite scary. Anyway, Suarez nailed it, Saada picked it up, and buried it. Again it wasnt about the goal, the pass took out 4 players and he couldnt have weighted it any better. My opponent also had great players in defence which added to its magic, they didnt read it, couldnt intercept it.

I'm going to make my own personal Suarez passing highlight reel scrapbook, because yes I am really that sad. :CONFUSE:

It's this type of control that I just couldnt live without now, and yes, your PSN addy is tasteless. Shame on you.

YouTube - Something about Suarez
 
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klashman69 said:
Interesting what Jimmy is saying about the differences between PES 2010 and PES 2011!

Then again, Were comparing a full game to a beta :LOL: , the basis of what he's saying is. PES 2011 is better but dosen't have quite as much depth as PES 2010. Interesting indeed, But I'm sure PES 2011 will include all of the depth that was in PES 2010!

I wont be too pleased if it isn't brought over! Maybe it was even in the beta but the regular AI isn't showing it? Again, even with the gamescom videos, they are all on regular again right? I mean regular AI compared to Top player AI on PES 2010 was two very different games! Especially in the intelligence department!

Neuf made a point how in some of the gamescom videos the formations were very disorganized and that reminded me a lot of the regular AI in PES 2010 which was shit tbh!



Well it's SOUNDS just like fifa 08 Online! The gamer method of playing will work (works in all games dosen't it?) vs decent/average players, but anyone who's pretty good and uses his brain can stop him!

Would you rather it be like FIFA 09 where it's pretty much completely impossible to be abusers playing football?
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Its deeper in a different way, there is far more options, far more control. You need to play it to see, maybe I didnt get my point across as well as I would have liked.
 
Hello,

I have three questions :

- I woudlike to know if the game will have a zoned online like the 2010 (with the US version we can just play with guy from North and South America. I'm a french who lives in Canada and I wouldlike to play with friends. In the worst case I'll buy european version).

- The MLO should be a worldwide "championship". So, maybe the game will not have a zoned online. Do you think the Konami surprise will be this (plus the J-league for everyone, because if everyone must have the same version to play with anybody in the world).

- If not, do you think the 2011 asian version will be again better than others (http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?t=56435) ?

Thanks !
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
:LOL:

Thats just plain ridiculous, I'm sure that type of rubbish wont make the retail version. But then again, after seeing the Rainbow Flick, nothing would suprise me now.
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It that ever happenend it would be considering to be the most flukest and easily one of the worlds best and rare goals.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Funnily enough I scored a goal last night that typified my current MLO team, and more so, the style in which I like to play it. Saurez has been my playmaker, the only player that has a high consistency with his defence splitting balls. I have so much confidence in him, and he rarely lets me down. If I see the pass, he finds it.
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Nice pass, are you playing fully manual?
 
mr_man said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MHm6_-Q7c4

Pretty sexy goal if you ask me; oh and I just went back to playing PES 10, and it just looks even more ridiculous after over a year. Animations ain't any better and I'm surprised Konami didn't add big shoes to go with those shorts.
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THANKS for uploading that, great to see the unique dribbling animations are still in fro different players!

I didn't notice this is the gaemscom/other videos :)
 
From this video and many more from MLO i can say that - the dribbling is OK but.. the shots in this game are ridiculous ...
 
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