Liverpool Thread

Re: Liverpool Thread

"Between 2004 and 2010, in buying 40 players who started a league game, Benítez spent approximately £225m.
He recouped £132m from the 25 of those purchases to have moved on.
And he left purchases conservatively worth £150m."

By my rather simple mind, that means his net spend was actually 225-132, or 93m. The argument of what a player is worth 'leftover' seems a bit silly, as if you follow that through the club would be left without a playing squad, albeit with a bit of profit.

Anyway, it's nice to see he's still spinning away, even across the continent. And nice to see his almost cult-like fans continue. I just don't get it.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

I get the logic but it is a weird way of looking at it from a traditional viewpoint.

In other words what he is saying as that the players still at the club bought by him have either kept their value or they have become more expensive (Torres, Reina, etc). Looking at the team, how many of the players would you say will recieve a far lower transfer fee then the one spent? Babel (10.5) would maybe get 8 after this season, I would expect Johnson to not get more then 15mil (but maybe that's just me), Kuyt would be as much as bought, around 10mil.

There aren't many players who will create a big loss.

But that's not an important, or interesting point. Amusing to see him saying the same as us though, that Hodgson doesn't know what he is talking about and that his media interviews are getting worse and worse.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

And even if some players get a loss you cant blame Benitez for that. Aquilani for example is going to be a big loss. He was bought for 20m euros, and is going to be sold for 13.5 m euros at the end of the season. But that ´s not Benitez ´s fault.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

beachryan said:
"Between 2004 and 2010, in buying 40 players who started a league game, Benítez spent approximately £225m.
He recouped £132m from the 25 of those purchases to have moved on.
And he left purchases conservatively worth £150m."

By my rather simple mind, that means his net spend was actually 225-132, or 93m. The argument of what a player is worth 'leftover' seems a bit silly, as if you follow that through the club would be left without a playing squad, albeit with a bit of profit.

Anyway, it's nice to see he's still spinning away, even across the continent. And nice to see his almost cult-like fans continue. I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

Those weren't accurate prices though so that wasn't his net spend. His net spend is actually around £14m overall under Hicks & Gillett. Here's his full list of transfers.

Lucas Leiva £5,000,000
Mikel San José £270,000
Sebastian Leto £1,800,000
Fernando Torres £20,200,000
Yossi Benayoun £5,000,000
Ryan Babel £11,500,000
Emiliano Insúa £1,300,000
Martin Skrtel £6,500,000
Javier Mascherano £12,400,000
Andrea Dossena £7,000,000
Diego Cavalieri £3,500,000
David N'Gog £1,500,000
Robbie Keane £19,000,000
Albert Riera £8,000,000
Glen Johnson £17,500,000
Alberto Aquilani £17,100,000
Sotirios Kyrgiakos £2,000,000
Daniel Ayala £160,000
Damien Plessis £1,000,000
JonJo Shelvey £1,700,000
Danny Wilson £2,000,000
Christian Poulsen £4,500,000
Brad Jones £2,300,000
Raul Meireles £11,400,000

Total £162,630,000


Peter Crouch £11,000,000
Mohamed Sissoko £8,200,000
Scott Carson £3,250,000
Mark Gonzalez £3,500,000
Craig Bellamy £7,500,000
Sebastian Leto £3,000,000
Álvaro Arbeloa £3,500,000
Paul Anderson £250,000
Gabriel Paletta £1,200,000
Luis Garcia £4,000,000
Robbie Keane £12,500,000
Andrea Dossena £4,000,000
Andriy Voronin £1,800,000
Danny O' Donnell £100,000
Djibril Cissé £6,000,000
Chris Kirkland £3,500,000
John Arne Riise £4,000,000
Anthony Le Tallec £1,100,000
Danny Guthrie £2,250,000
Steve Finnan £1,000,000
Sinima Pongolle £2,700,000
Mikel San Jose £3,500,000
Chris Buchtmann £700,000
Xabi Alonso £30,000,000
Nikolay Mihaylov £1,000,000
Yossi Benayoun £5,500,000
Albert Reira £5,000,000
Deigo Cavaleri £1,000,000
Krizten Nemeth £1,500,000
Javier Mascherano £17,500,000

Total £149,150,000

+/- -£13,480,000



I've only included transfers where a fee is involved, so the likes of Cole and Jovanovic aren't listed for that reason.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

UJSupanova said:
Those weren't accurate prices though so that wasn't his net spend. His net spend is actually around £14m overall under Hicks & Gillett. Here's his full list of transfers.

Lucas Leiva £5,000,000
Mikel San José £270,000
Sebastian Leto £1,800,000
Fernando Torres £20,200,000
Yossi Benayoun £5,000,000
Ryan Babel £11,500,000
Emiliano Insúa £1,300,000
Martin Skrtel £6,500,000
Javier Mascherano £12,400,000
Andrea Dossena £7,000,000
Diego Cavalieri £3,500,000
David N'Gog £1,500,000
Robbie Keane £19,000,000
Albert Riera £8,000,000
Glen Johnson £17,500,000
Alberto Aquilani £17,100,000
Sotirios Kyrgiakos £2,000,000
Daniel Ayala £160,000
Damien Plessis £1,000,000
JonJo Shelvey £1,700,000
Danny Wilson £2,000,000
Christian Poulsen £4,500,000
Brad Jones £2,300,000
Raul Meireles £11,400,000

Total £162,630,000


Peter Crouch £11,000,000
Mohamed Sissoko £8,200,000
Scott Carson £3,250,000
Mark Gonzalez £3,500,000
Craig Bellamy £7,500,000
Sebastian Leto £3,000,000
Álvaro Arbeloa £3,500,000
Paul Anderson £250,000
Gabriel Paletta £1,200,000
Luis Garcia £4,000,000
Robbie Keane £12,500,000
Andrea Dossena £4,000,000
Andriy Voronin £1,800,000
Danny O' Donnell £100,000
Djibril Cissé £6,000,000
Chris Kirkland £3,500,000
John Arne Riise £4,000,000
Anthony Le Tallec £1,100,000
Danny Guthrie £2,250,000
Steve Finnan £1,000,000
Sinima Pongolle £2,700,000
Mikel San Jose £3,500,000
Chris Buchtmann £700,000
Xabi Alonso £30,000,000
Nikolay Mihaylov £1,000,000
Yossi Benayoun £5,500,000
Albert Reira £5,000,000
Deigo Cavaleri £1,000,000
Krizten Nemeth £1,500,000
Javier Mascherano £17,500,000

Total £149,150,000

+/- -£13,480,000



I've only included transfers where a fee is involved, so the likes of Cole and Jovanovic aren't listed for that reason.
Click to expand...

Masch and Meireles / Poulson can be balanced against each other so the spend stays the same.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

@ UJSupernova

That's a very odd argument - by defining it as only while H&G were there you're missing some of Rafa's more expensive purchases - but including the profit on their sales? (Cisse, Alonso, Reina, Bellamy, Gonzalez etc?)
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Didn't see that Ryan, does make the list pointless then.

Sebastian Leto £3,000,000
Paul Anderson £250,000
Gabriel Paletta £1,200,000
Robbie Keane £12,500,000
Andrea Dossena £4,000,000
Andriy Voronin £1,800,000
Danny O' Donnell £100,000
Danny Guthrie £2,250,000
Mikel San Jose £3,500,000
Chris Buchtmann £700,000
Nikolay Mihaylov £1,000,000
Yossi Benayoun £5,500,000
Albert Reira £5,000,000
Deigo Cavaleri £1,000,000
Krizten Nemeth £1,500,000
Javier Mascherano £17,500,000
60,800,000

That seems about right (haven't checked so could be wrong on a few). Only 90mil difference!
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

That's a list i put together a couple of weeks ago to dispute Hicks's claim that Rafa's net spend under H&G was £150m

But before they came he had also pretty much broke even because he sold players bought by Houllier.

Cisse was Houllier's buy, not Rafa's.

Also, Alonso's price is still under dispute because we'd always been told by the press that he was £10.7m, Luis Garcia £6m and Antonio Nunez £1.5m (total of £18.2m), but the official club accounts show that all three were bought for a total of £13m
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

UJSupanova said:
That's a list i put together a couple of weeks ago to dispute Hicks's claim that Rafa's net spend under H&G was £150m

But before they came he had also pretty much broke even because he sold players bought by Houllier.

Cisse was Houllier's buy, not Rafa's.

Also, Alonso's price is still under dispute because we'd always been told by the press that he was £10.7m, Luis Garcia £6m and Antonio Nunez £1.5m (total of £18.2m), but the official club accounts show that all three were bought for a total of £13m
Click to expand...

I officially give up. Nevermind, Rafa did great in the transfer market. Viva la Rafalution.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

That's it? You came in looking to bash Rafa, you got presented with reasons why your arguement was wrong, and now you reply in a sarcastic manner? Poor form ;)
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Let's go through the 'debate', and keep in mind this is an attempt to look at net spend BY RAFA, not anything else:

1. The first list includes a chunk of proceeds from sales of players that he also bought, which are left off, so it's not right.

2. Tiktiktik points out what this would do to overall spend, indeed showing Rafa spend a lot of money

3. UJ responds with, yeah well he also sold some Houllier players, and some un-written technicalities over £3m for three players years ago

Do you see why I'm not bothering? It's clear that for some Liverpool fans, and I don't get why, Rafa can do no wrong, and it's all a media/ opposition fans/ ex-players/ the government conspiracy because he's foreign. Or something.

I personally think Rafa is a perfectly capable coach, but that he's not been a great manager and he's not delivered great return from his investments (1 season aside). It just annoys me to see these lines peddled out by him and his sycophants that he has spent wisely. It's patently untrue.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

beachryan said:
Do you see why I'm not bothering? It's clear that for some Liverpool fans, and I don't get why, Rafa can do no wrong, and it's all a media/ opposition fans/ ex-players/ the government conspiracy because he's foreign. Or something.

I personally think Rafa is a perfectly capable coach, but that he's not been a great manager and he's not delivered great return from his investments (1 season aside). It just annoys me to see these lines peddled out by him and his sycophants that he has spent wisely. It's patently untrue.
Click to expand...

I agree with you.
To be fair, i also understand the Liverpool fans in this thread. They are extremely disappointed with their club. Last season should have been the season that Liverpool should have made the leap from runners up to champions. It turned out o be the beginning of a free fall.

But yes this free fall started under Benitez. I think that Benitez is not to blame, the players are to blame. The weird thing is that they (almost) never blamed Benitez, but that now they are blaming Hodgson...to me that is not entirely fair.

But i also understand that, because Liverpoll fans wanted a bigger manager for their team. the point is that even if Liverpool are perhaps the bigest English club (historically speaking), right at the moment Liverpool are not a big club...
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Yes, that list doesn't include buys like Josemi (Where is he now even?! ) Jan Krompkamp, Antonio Nunez (a VERY mediocre player, wonder what he's up to now) etc. etc.

Rafa has had some great buys like Alonso, Torres, Mascherano and Kuyt (tho this poor fella has been misused!) and some absolutely rubbish ones as well! A mixed bag really.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Benitez did not have a perfect record at Liverpool for sure.
I think us fans are just sad to see him replaced with someone worse
that has taken us backwards. And to see him blame Rafa and everyone
else was mindboggling....
Rafa was not perfect...he did a lot of good things...made mistakes also.
End of story.

Moving on...
Hodgson has apologized to Rafa for his comments.
We have a new "Director of Football".....so he will be the one
scouting new players....so Roy will have less power.
http://www.epltalk.com/what-the-henry-beane-comolli-connection-means-for-roy-hodgson-26290
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

PLF said:
Yes, that list doesn't include buys like Josemi (Where is he now even?! ) Jan Krompkamp, Antonio Nunez (a VERY mediocre player, wonder what he's up to now) etc. etc.

Rafa has had some great buys like Alonso, Torres, Mascherano and Kuyt (tho this poor fella has been misused!) and some absolutely rubbish ones as well! A mixed bag really.
Click to expand...

Tbf Nunez was thrust upon us as part of the Michael Owen swindle. But of course he's bought some shite, i just think he gets unfair stick about the bad players he bought because he pissed off the press and opposition fans.

I presented a list showing his net spend since H&G took over and for some reason that pissed someone off, fuck knows why.

But all managers have bad buys on their record, and for big money too. Nobody is proclaiming Rafa to be the messiah or anything, i'm just presenting facts which are being twisted.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

dev_don said:
rafa didnt purchase Cisse, that was Houlier bell end
Click to expand...

Lets look at the other players he mentioned though, because he has a good point:


Mark Gonzalez: Signed for £1.5m, sold for £5.5m
Craig Bellamy: Signed for £6.5m, sold for £7.5m
Xabi Alonso: Signed for less than £10m, sold for £30m
Pepe Reina: Signed for £6m - the best keeper we've had since Clemence.

These were supposed to be "Rafa's more expensive purchases" according to beachryan. The most expensive one was bought by Houllier and the rest are either starting every game or have been sold for a decent profit. :LOL:
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

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Re: Liverpool Thread

Interesting that Henry values Tomkin's opinions so much.
Tomkins is a vocal opponent of Hodgson but has recently said he would be willing
to stop if Liverpool improves.

Some interesting links about the hiring of Comolli and the direction NESV is taking us..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9156815.stm
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

UJSupanova said:
Lets look at the other players he mentioned though, because he has a good point:


Mark Gonzalez: Signed for £1.5m, sold for £5.5m
Craig Bellamy: Signed for £6.5m, sold for £7.5m
Xabi Alonso: Signed for less than £10m, sold for £30m
Pepe Reina: Signed for £6m - the best keeper we've had since Clemence.

These were supposed to be "Rafa's more expensive purchases" according to beachryan. The most expensive one was bought by Houllier and the rest are either starting every game or have been sold for a decent profit. :LOL:
Click to expand...

This is the last thing I'm going to say on the matter (and apologies for not realising that Cisse was a Houllier buy - I should be more in tune with the 60 odd buys Rafa made).

If you're going to look at a manager's record in transfers there are only two ways to evaluate it:

1. They win stuff - this justifies the spending. Rafa won virtually nothing once his team had been established with his purchases.

2. The net spend is proportional to the performance - this would indicate that with the spending has come relative success, even if it's not trophies. To evaluate that, you simply add all the money the manager spent, and subtract all the money that the manager recouped. Hence, a list excluding half of his spend but including all of his recouped funds is fairly useless.

As I've said before, I don't think Rafa did a bad job at Liverpool, and as a United fan I was pleased when he left because it meant you weren't going to have a good season. But this whole cr*p about him being an amazing manager, and even more cr*p a shrewd operator in the transfer market is just bollox.

Done. Hope Hamsik looks good tonight.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

I agree completely with beachryan on the subject of Benitez' transfers. And i'm not the only one in this thread. Last season there seemed to be a consensus in this thread that Benitez' transfers were not the big success...

Think about both Keane and Aquilani. They never got a decent chance IMO. I'm not so sure if Keane could have turned out to be good, but Aquilani can become something special.

Oh and i also have my doubts about Jovanovic, who definitely was a Benitez transfer.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

mathewsss said:
Some interesting links about the hiring of Comolli and the direction NESV is taking us..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9156815.stm
Click to expand...

This is good as Hodgson won't be able to waste any
more money on journeymen.

Comolli record at Tottenham has been describe as hit
& miss but to me there has been more hits, just need
the current manager to change & adapt(which he is slowly
doing unwillingly to his beliefs).

The good-

Gareth Bale(says it all)
Alan Hutton(had a rough start, now playing)
Kevin-Prince Boateng(Very good player, now at Milan
after good showing a pompy & world cup)
Giovanni dos Santos(Talented but can't get a game)
Adel Taarabt(should've listened to Diaby & went to Arsenal
but hugely talented player)
Younes Kaboul(Spurs bough him back so...)
Luka Modrić(Class)
Benoit Assou-Ekotto(Great going forward...)
Heurelho Gomes(pob)
Roman Pavlyuchenko(underrated, good finisher)
Dimitar Berbatov(sold at massive profit)

For us now this is about rebuilding slowly(cause it will take time)
for the future, getting young & highly talented players at a
good price with great resale value.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

beachryan said:
This is the last thing I'm going to say on the matter (and apologies for not realising that Cisse was a Houllier buy - I should be more in tune with the 60 odd buys Rafa made).

If you're going to look at a manager's record in transfers there are only two ways to evaluate it:

1. They win stuff - this justifies the spending. Rafa won virtually nothing once his team had been established with his purchases.
Click to expand...

So Wenger is crap then.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

gerd said:
I

Think about both Keane and Aquilani. They never got a decent chance IMO. I'm not so sure if Keane could have turned out to be good, but Aquilani can become something special.

Oh and i also have my doubts about Jovanovic, who definitely was a Benitez transfer.
Click to expand...

Right, but it's fine for Hodgson to send him out to Juventus now that he's fully fit? Rafa gets the blame for signing and not playing him, but Roy's getting a pass?

Jovanovic certainly is a big risk, that free transfer will have put a huge dent in our transfer budget and I've got no idea how we'll make that money back if we decide to sell him.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

beachryan said:
This is the last thing I'm going to say on the matter (and apologies for not realising that Cisse was a Houllier buy - I should be more in tune with the 60 odd buys Rafa made).

If you're going to look at a manager's record in transfers there are only two ways to evaluate it:

1. They win stuff - this justifies the spending. Rafa won virtually nothing once his team had been established with his purchases.

2. The net spend is proportional to the performance - this would indicate that with the spending has come relative success, even if it's not trophies. To evaluate that, you simply add all the money the manager spent, and subtract all the money that the manager recouped. Hence, a list excluding half of his spend but including all of his recouped funds is fairly useless.

As I've said before, I don't think Rafa did a bad job at Liverpool, and as a United fan I was pleased when he left because it meant you weren't going to have a good season. But this whole cr*p about him being an amazing manager, and even more cr*p a shrewd operator in the transfer market is just bollox.

Done. Hope Hamsik looks good tonight.
Click to expand...

So in other words you completely missed the point and once you realised your net spend argument was bollocks you changed it to something else.

Ok ryan, i'll just take it that you've now realised you were owned and have crawled back into your shell, no harm done, let's be friends. :SMUG:
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

UJSupanova said:
So in other words you completely missed the point and once you realised your net spend argument was bollocks you changed it to something else.

Ok ryan, i'll just take it that you've now realised you were owned and have crawled back into your shell, no harm done, let's be friends. :SMUG:
Click to expand...

I realise the last 20 years must have made you a bit bitter, but wtf are you on about? I've not changed my tune at all.

Net spend = Expenditure - profit made on sales. That's all I've ever said. So if you'd like to calculate net spend, you have to use every single player purchased, and every single player sold. Not a selective list which helps your argument.

Once again, if you add up all the players Rafa purchase, and subtract those that he then sold, you get a number that is greater than £10m, and is not small. That's it. That's my point. It is a facht.

Arguing over the relative worth of that spend is something completely different.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

beachryan said:
I realise the last 20 years must have made you a bit bitter, but wtf are you on about? I've not changed my tune at all.

Net spend = Expenditure - profit made on sales. That's all I've ever said. So if you'd like to calculate net spend, you have to use every single player purchased, and every single player sold. Not a selective list which helps your argument.

Once again, if you add up all the players Rafa purchase, and subtract those that he then sold, you get a number that is greater than £10m, and is not small. That's it. That's my point. It is a facht.

Arguing over the relative worth of that spend is something completely different.
Click to expand...

You did change your tune. My list didn't include "all of his recouped funds" it only included players bought and sold during the time that Hicks and Gillett owned the club. You gave me 5 examples of his "most expensive transfers" which occurred before this, and with one single post i proved that you were talking out of your arse :LOL: :LOL:

Anyway, read this:

http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2010/11/lfc-net-spend-rafa-benitez-confirms-my.html

It basically proves that Benitez is right, his net spend per year at Liverpool was around £10m.
 
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