Juventus Thread

[nt89]

yesterday we lost again :S against hsv... anyway we played better than newcastle and people like blasi, legrottaglie, boumsong and birindelli were in...

 

[Dominic]

Juventus 5 -2 Roma

Great match, hopefully a sign of things to come.

 

[lo zio]

i just saw the second half. interesting match. many players on both sides lack of stamina, but it's quite normal at this point of the preseason.
not a great match talking about quality, but some nice individual efforts and plays.

juve still hasn't a clear tactical imprint, but with so many new players it's quite normal... it will be a tough work for ranieri to "mould" his new "creature" and build up a team, but i still think he's the right man for this challenge.

juventus defensive line is a disaster at the moment, but once again, it's no surprise, and i'm quite confident ranieri will find the best solution.
it's still hard for me to understand why juve bought andrade.... i really can't see any good reason to buy him rather than barzagli, felipe, zapata, natali, stendardo..... but anyway "the pot is broken now and there's no point in complaining".
i really hope u will keep chiellini coz seeing juve playing yesterday, i've got the feeling he will become really useful in a couple of weeks :roll:

talking about the good news, Nocerino is really impressive, and i've got the feeling he will steal almiron's or tiago's place in the starting formation in a couple of weeks.
nocerino, palladino, giovinco, marchisio and de ceglie.... all theese guys have an awesome potential.... i really hope juve will let them grow and become those great players they promise to become.

one little mention for del piero... he's just out of this world.... the more he get old, the better he plays.... he's really a living.... wait, a "playing" legend :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

i'm quite curious to see how juve will start the season.... in my opinion they should start quite slowly (too many new players... to many players coming from other leagues, a new coaching staff.... clearely juve still isn't "a team") and then grow week by week.... wich should make hard for them to reach a champion's league spot for the next season (will be a tough battle, with milan, inter, lazio, roma and i'd say fiorentina too).

but it might also happen that the great will, determination and "hunger" of the old great champions (del piero, trezegol, nedved and camo) could push juventus and hide their weak points for the first weeks.

we'll see

 

[Dominic]

The defensive line needs some time to become a unit. Juventus needed an experienced defender, who was available, and bar maybe Barzagli I think your other suggestions are either average (Stendardo), too young (Zapata) or both (Natali, Felipe). Criscito was great yesterday and in recent matches he and Andrade seem to be the partnership of Ranieri's preference.

Yeah, Nocerino is a beast, but for me it was Zanetti who turned the game around yesterday. Very underrated player.
Tiago has already lost his place it seems. The other three central midfielders have impressed a lot more in pre-season and are way more functional. Almiron has already become an untouchable starter in his handful of matches, he is the axis of this team. Great player. Also the Almiron-Tiago partnership does not work, it needs a destroyer; hence Tiago has been dropped.

About the talents, I have high hopes for Nocerino, Marchisio and especially Giovinco, but less so for Palladino and De Ceglie.

Judging from Juve's game yesterday, the upper quarter of the table is within reach. Inter and Milan will still be too strong I reckon, but Roma can apparently be beaten( I realize it was a friendly and Roma were missing most of their midfield), Fiorentina have potential but i'm not worried about Lazio; I think they are quite an average side.

 

[lo zio]

The defensive line needs some time to become a unit. Juventus needed an experienced defender, who was available, and bar maybe Barzagli I think your other suggestions are either average (Stendardo), too young (Zapata) or both (Natali, Felipe). Criscito was great yesterday and in recent matches he and Andrade seem to be the partnership of Ranieri's preference.

barzagli is of course better than felipe, stendardo and zapata (a lot better)... but i'd say u already know how much i rate andrea

Stendardo is not as good as felipe and zapata, but i'd say he's more than just average... but anyway i can't see lotito selling him, so there's no point in taliking about him.

felipe and zapata are good enough for juve imo, and they are easier to get than fernando meira.

it was Zanetti who turned the game around yesterday. Very underrated player.

not by me . if he won't face big injury problems, he will have a great season imo. after the hell he went through, his determination must be huge!
btw i can't express myself about his performance coz i just saw the second half of the match, so i don't what he did in the first half (actually my views about juventus defence aren't based on yesterday's match but on the previous juve matches.

The other three central midfielders have impressed a lot more in pre-season and are way more functional. Almiron has already become an untouchable starter in his handful of matches, he is the axis of this team. Great player. Also the Almiron-Tiago partnership does not work, it needs a destroyer; hence Tiago has been dropped.

i agree with u. i'm pretty sure almiron will have another great season, maybe even better than the last one. but i'm still confident tiago will have his chances to play.

About the talents, I have high hopes for Nocerino, Marchisio and especially Giovinco, but less so for Palladino and De Ceglie.

:shock:
really? actually i think palladino is one of the greatest italian talents of the last 10 years. i'm just worried he won't find enough space in juve :roll:

Judging from Juve's game yesterday, the upper quarter of the table is within reach. Inter and Milan will still be too strong I reckon, but Roma can apparently be beaten( I realize it was a friendly and Roma were missing most of their midfield), Fiorentina have potential but i'm not worried about Lazio; I think they are quite an average side.

Lazio is more than average, Don; but i think they won't repeat the great season they had last year. now they'll have to play in champions too, and this competition "eats" a lot of energy for clubs without a big, deep roster.

 

[Dominic]

barzagli is of course better than felipe, stendardo and zapata (a lot better)... but i'd say u already know how much i rate andrea

Stendardo is not as good as felipe and zapata, but i'd say he's more than just average... but anyway i can't see lotito selling him, so there's no point in taliking about him.

felipe and zapata are good enough for juve imo, and they are easier to get than fernando meira.

I think if Ranieri gives Criscito the playing time, he will be better than most of those names very quickly. Chiellini already is.

not by me . if he won't big injury problems, he will have a great season imo. after the hell he went through, his determination must be huge!

I agree. Shame that he is injury prone, and probably won't last the season without picking up at least one serious injury.

btw i can't express myself about his performance coz i just saw the second half of the match, so i don't what he did in the first half (actually my views about juventus defence aren't based on yesterday's match but on the previous juve matches.

Zanetti came in after the 2-0 and he added so much steel and life to the midfield, instantly overpowering Roma's midfield. He also set up the 2-1, with a great pass.

i agree with u. i'm pretty sure almiron will have another great season, maybe even better than the last one. but i'm still confident tiago will have his chances to play.

Yeah when Almiron gets injured or suspended :lol:.
([-o< I hope not..)

:shock:
really? actually i think palladino is one of the greatest italian talents of the last 10 years. i'm just worried he won't find enough space in juve :roll:

I think he will become a decent player at best. His technique is awesome, but he lacks a lot in every other area. He has no end-product, no clear role, no functionality and little effectivity. Not finding much space as a youngster, is quite inherent to juventus, but if Palladino would be performing more impressively; things would be different. He is no Giovinco. Palladino's future at juve will depend on Palladino, if he wants to be a prominent player for another team, or a bit-part player for juve. He isn't even THAT young anymore.

Lazio is more than average, Don; but i think they won't repeat the great season they had last year. now they'll have to play in champions too, and this competition "eats" a lot of energy for clubs without a big, deep roster.

Lazio will finish in 6th at best. Their team consists of a lot of good players, but no great players (Ledesma and Rocchi PERHAPS the exceptions). Players that cover a lot of ground and do everything decently, but no special talent. They lost Jimenez already, who was their only player with some flair. Lazio are a bit of bland team.

 

[lo zio]

I think he will become a decent player at best. His technique is awesome, but he lacks a lot in every other area. He has no end-product, no clear role, no functionality and little effectivity.

many players in history were "marked" by theese comments when they were young.... pirlo, maradona, sivori, zidane, ibrahimovic.... i just hope he raffaele will join this allowed few.... and in my opinion he has enough potential to do it.

about raffaele being not that young, well, he's not a kid as criscito, but he's still pretty young.

Lazio will finish in 6th at best. Their team consists of a lot of good players, but no great players (Ledesma and Rocchi PERHAPS the exceptions). Players that cover a lot of ground and do everything decently, but no special talent. They lost Jimenez already, who was their only player with some flair. Lazio are a bit of bland team

well, ending a season in 6th it's not a bad result, if u play in serie a.
about lazio's roster quality, i can't agree with u Don. Behrami, cribari, ledesma, mauri, rocchi, pandev.... they have a lot of quality players, high quality players. and, most important, they have an awesome coach, who gave them a strong imprint. they play with a great "harmony", "fluency"..... wich is exactly what juve lacks of at the moment.

a lot of "coaches" in europe should watch lazio game's tapes for hours, to understand what does it mean to coach a football team.
anyway, i could talk about lazio for hours, but we would go off topic and the moderator could "spank" us....
.. oups, wait, i almost forgot u are the man in charge here :p :mrgreen::lol:

gotta go now mate, nice conversation

 

[Dominic]

many players in history were "marked" by theese comments when they were young.... pirlo, maradona, sivori, zidane, ibrahimovic.... i just hope he raffaele will join this allowed few.... and in my opinion he has enough potential to do it.

about raffaele being not that young, well, he's not a kid as criscito, but he's still pretty young.

I had no idea you were that old ! :mrgreen:

Anyway, I hope Palladino will develop his talent, but it's time to show it. Football, especially for youngsters, can be very unforgiving and thus I think make- or break time is getting closer.

well, ending a season in 6th it's not a bad result, if u play in serie a.

Sure, but my point was that they can't compete with the best.

about lazio's roster quality, i can't agree with u Don. Behrami, cribari, ledesma, mauri, rocchi, pandev.... they have a lot of quality players, high quality players. and, most important, they have an awesome coach, who gave them a strong imprint. they play with a great "harmony", "fluency"..... wich is exactly what juve lacks of at the moment.

a lot of "coaches" in europe should watch lazio game's tapes for hours, to understand what does it mean to coach a football team.

Mauri and Cribari were exactly the players I had in mind when I wrote " Players that cover a lot of ground and do everything decently, but no special talent". I admit I forgot about Pandev. Behrami looks talented, but also lacks some flair.

I agree about them looking like a proper team, but in the end, quality will usually make the difference and that is where they lack.

anyway, i could talk about lazio for hours, but we would go off topic and the moderator could "spank" us....
.. oups, wait, i almost forgot u are the man in charge here :p :mrgreen::lol:

You deserve to be banned, you smug bastard :mrgreen:.

gotta go now mate, nice conversation

:thumbup:

 

[lo zio]

I had no idea you were that old !

:lmao:
well, i'm older than criscito, but still younger than boumsong

Anyway, I hope Palladino will develop his talent, but it's time to show it. Football, especially for youngsters, can be very unforgiving and thus I think make- or break time is getting closer.

that's very, very true, my friend

Sure, but my point was that they can't compete with the best.

that's for sure.

Mauri and Cribari were exactly the players I had in mind when I wrote " Players that cover a lot of ground and do everything decently, but no special talent". I admit I forgot about Pandev. Behrami looks talented, but also lacks some flair.

I agree about them looking like a proper team, but in the end, quality will usually make the difference and that is where they lack.

i have to disagree with u about mauri and cribari. but anyway, mate, i think u're underestimating "the rossi factor".
most of the times the coach has a little impact on a team performances. in some countries the coach is almost useless (i won't say in wich country, to avoid people on this forum insulting me :mrgreen.
but europe is still full of very good coaches... some of them have a strong impact on the team.
but they can be "good" in many ways.
some of them are great in man management (like ferguson or del bosque) others are great in helping young talents to grow (like de la cruz ramos or zeman) others have a great tactical knowledge (like herrera or sacchi or capello, but i'd say also like puel, benitez or guidolin).
then there are a few (really a few) coaches who have the whole package. they're good in everything.
those coaches have an awesome impact on the team, a bigger impact than any other star player (more than a ronaldinho, a kakà, a maloudà or a dani alves).
those coaches can raise the level of a team, no matter how good are his players.
so, when a team has one of theese coaches, the statement "but in the end, quality will usually make the difference", wich is usually an agreable statement, becomes wrong.

rossi is one of theese great coaches. another one is lippi. both of them won't be remembered by history as genious as revolutionary coaches (as herrera or sacchi); they didn't invent anything. but they can raise a team beyond his players abilities, they can make them overachieve.... always.
lippi won many scudetti leading a group of players whose abilities weren't as good as milan players abilities or as inter players abilities. and u almost couldn't notice the gap between juve players and inter or milan players...... because lippi filled that gap.

rossi is very similar to lippi

You deserve to be banned, you smug bastard .

:mrgreen::lol:
still better than being spanked! :lmao::lol:

 

[PLF]

Yeah when Almiron gets injured or suspended :lol:.
([-o< I hope not..)

Although they are different players and have different qualities, overall Tiago >>> Almiron.

He's one of the very few players, I had inititally made the wrong impression on after Chelsea period and will gladly admit, I was incorrect about.

He really surprised me at OL. Showed me, he's much better than what I thought he was. A real quality central midfielder who does a bit of everything and also makes his fair share of runs into the box to get on rebounds and passes and score goals.

Good long-shot, passing, stamina and defensive skills as well. Very well-rounded player.

Almiron has his own qualities of course. Some of which Tiago doesn't possess and some qualities of Tiago that he doesn't have in his game.

But overall, if I had to pick one, I'd get Tiago. And for those who don't rate him highly enough, he will prove them wrong after he settles in. Just like he proved me wrong.

 

[lo zio]

i have to say i was surprised too by seeing how good tiago was when he joined lyon. he really didn't looked that good and complete midfielder when he was playing for chelsea. and reading u had the same feeling makes me think he actually wasn't that good when he was a chelsea player.

juve fans were enthusiasts when tiago joined the team. now he's "underperforming" (wich is quite natural at this point of the preseason, and considering he still has a lot of things to learn about italian football and his new teammates) and so they're a little disappointed by him.

i'm pretty sure they'll realize what a useful player he can be during the season.

but in this moment, juve still hasn't a "soul" a personality a specific gameplay (wich is absolutely normal coz it's almost a new team), and so i'd say that in this moment a player like almiron, who can set pieces and "conduct the orchestra" is more useful. juventus needs a "brain" now and that brain must be almiron imo.

 

[Dominic]

i have to disagree with u about mauri and cribari. but anyway, mate, i think u're underestimating "the rossi factor".
most of the times the coach has a little impact on a team performances. in some countries the coach is almost useless (i won't say in wich country, to avoid people on this forum insulting me :mrgreen.
but europe is still full of very good coaches... some of them have a strong impact on the team.
but they can be "good" in many ways.
some of them are great in man management (like ferguson or del bosque) others are great in helping young talents to grow (like de la cruz ramos or zeman) others have a great tactical knowledge (like herrera or sacchi or capello, but i'd say also like puel, benitez or guidolin).
then there are a few (really a few) coaches who have the whole package. they're good in everything.
those coaches have an awesome impact on the team, a bigger impact than any other star player (more than a ronaldinho, a kakà, a maloudà or a dani alves).
those coaches can raise the level of a team, no matter how good are his players.
so, when a team has one of theese coaches, the statement "but in the end, quality will usually make the difference", wich is usually an agreable statement, becomes wrong.

rossi is one of theese great coaches. another one is lippi. both of them won't be remembered by history as genious as revolutionary coaches (as herrera or sacchi); they didn't invent anything. but they can raise a team beyond his players abilities, they can make them overachieve.... always.
lippi won many scudetti leading a group of players whose abilities weren't as good as milan players abilities or as inter players abilities. and u almost couldn't notice the gap between juve players and inter or milan players...... because lippi filled that gap.

rossi is very similar to lippi

This backs up my arguement about Lazio's squad being average though. If it weren't for Rossi, coming in 6th might not have been within reach. Shame for your Palermo, that Rossi is the Lazio coach :mrgreen:.

:mrgreen::lol:
still better than being spanked! :lmao::lol:

Bah, Palermo will get spanked in November instead.

Although they are different players and have different qualities, overall Tiago >>> Almiron.

NO WAY! That's your ligue 1 bias speaking, mate.

He's one of the very few players, I had inititally made the wrong impression on after Chelsea period and will gladly admit, I was incorrect about.

He really surprised me at OL. Showed me, he's much better than what I thought he was. A real quality central midfielder who does a bit of everything and also makes his fair share of runs into the box to get on rebounds and passes and score goals.

Good long-shot, passing, stamina and defensive skills as well. Very well-rounded player.

Almiron has his own qualities of course. Some of which Tiago doesn't possess and some qualities of Tiago that he doesn't have in his game.

But overall, if I had to pick one, I'd get Tiago. And for those who don't rate him highly enough, he will prove them wrong after he settles in. Just like he proved me wrong.

Tiago is a player who is decent/good at everything, but great at nothing. Very well rounded, indeed. Yet it's often better to have one great strength, instead of few weaknesses and no real strength. At Lyon he was allowed to shine, because he was there only to complement the other two midfielders. You had the defensive midfielder, the offensive midifleder/playmaker(Juninho) and then there was Tiago, who gave some support defensively and offensively. He was free to go from box to box, without any pressure or dependancy on him for defensively stability or creativity. Besides, I know you don't agree, I still regard ligue 1 as a minor league, there's no real opposition for Lyon..

At Juventus more is expected of him. Early on he was partnered with Almiron. Offensively Almiron is simply way better, as his passing-range, vision, shooting and technique are so perfect, he can actually dictate the play and have control over the tempo. So far Almiron has been playing almost faultless, amazing player. Veron in a Juve shirt. Tiago can only make smart runs and pass and shoot decently. Defensively also, Almiron seemed to be the better player, much more aggression and stamina, so much more lively. Tiago's pace was off, playing at too low a tempo. Too many touches and sloppy.

After a few more friendlies, it was soon apparent, Juve's midfield needed a destroyer. Almiron has been playing so well, to drop him would be madness. He is the one who's making juve tick at the moment. Nocerino and Zanetti are both way more effective defensively, so Tiago has been (and should be..)dropped. Nocerino and Zanetti aren't even much inferior offensively.

I hope Tiago proves me wrong, but i'm not confident of that. Especially since Almiron has been such a revelation, Nocerino is incredibly talented and Zanetti adds much more security.

but in this moment, juve still hasn't a "soul" a personality a specific gameplay (wich is absolutely normal coz it's almost a new team), and so i'd say that in this moment a player like almiron, who can set pieces and "conduct the orchestra" is more useful. juventus needs a "brain" now and that brain must be almiron imo.

:applause:

 

[PLF]

Juve midfield (Tiago, Almiron, C. Zanetti)

juve fans were enthusiasts when tiago joined the team. now he's "underperforming" (wich is quite natural at this point of the preseason, and considering he still has a lot of things to learn about italian football and his new teammates) and so they're a little disappointed by him.

i'm pretty sure they'll realize what a useful player he can be during the season.

I haven't followed any of Juve's pre-season matches. So I don't know about that stuff. I'll take your words for it.

And yeah, having seen Tiago pick up confidence in himself over the past couple years (He's a confidence-player by the way if you know what I mean ) , I think even if not often as a 1st-teamer, over the course of the season despite Juve not being in Europe, he'll be needed eventually and should then put in some steady performances after he adapts.

but in this moment, juve still hasn't a "soul" a personality a specific gameplay (wich is absolutely normal coz it's almost a new team), and so i'd say that in this moment a player like almiron, who can set pieces and "conduct the orchestra" is more useful. juventus needs a "brain" now and that brain must be almiron imo.

If a 'brain' is what Juve needs, then Almiron is definitely your man over Tiago.

NO WAY! That's your ligue 1 bias speaking, mate.

There is no Ligue 1 bias. Don't assume things you don't know about.

If I have a Ligue 1 bias, then I have an even bigger Serie A one. :roll:

Since I've been following Italian Calcio since before I could even put 2 words together (my dad tells me :p ) and was 3-4 years old and only started watching French football regularly around 2001 or so.

Back when I was a kid, Serie A was undoubtedly the top league and had the most amount of 'stars' and best imports. Maybe it was for this reason that in my country, the only regular league coverage was Italy's. There was also coverage of the other leagues but only a match or two every week. And I've been following it since.

Just because I don't post on this thread or the Serie A or Bundesliga one as much or for as long as I have on the Ligue 1 thread, don't assume, I like it anymore than I do these or have any sorta bias. I've been discussing it verbally among friends and in a few different places on internet (not here) for years.

I like Ligue 1 and Lyon as much as I like Serie A and Juve and I like Palermo and Milan as much as I like Lens and Marseille. All the same amounts. Totally neutral and don't particularly care for any one in particular.

The main reason it may seem like I have some bias towards Ligue 1 which is not true at all, is because it's an under-rated league because it doesn't get enough media hype. So I often have to defend it and make most people's wrong impression of it (which has been influenced wrongly by their own country's media that wants to tell them, their league is best and others aren't)

But if EPL or any other league was under-rated, I'd be defending that too. But it's not. So I don't spend any precious time defending something that doesn't need defending. Yet, Bundesliga like Ligue 1 is under-rated as well. So I have to spend time defending that too, just like I do with Serie A sometimes nowadays because some of my stupid friends are under-rating it and talking as if it's no longer a great league. :| :roll:

Tiago is a player who is decent/good at everything, but great at nothing. Very well rounded, indeed. Yet it's often better to have one great strength, instead of few weaknesses and no real strength.

You were very correct about him until the bolded part in my opinion.

What's his weaknesses? :-s

He doesn't really have any. That's the thing. He has no real strength apart from workrate and stamina and yet no real weaknesses either. Hence, his well-roundedness.

He's very much like Lucho Gonzalez in this regard. Very good player who has no real weaknesses and no real specializations either but good at almost everything. I do prefer Lucho though slightly.

At Lyon he was allowed to shine, because he was there only to complement the other two midfielders. You had the defensive midfielder, the offensive midifleder/playmaker(Juninho) and then there was Tiago, who gave some support defensively and offensively. He was free to go from box to box, without any pressure or dependancy on him for defensively stability or creativity.

Exactly.

So he plays like a true well-rounded CM. One who isn't great at anything, so shouldn't be relied on to be the sole playmaker (brain) nor the main DMF and destroyer. But he can help everyone by doing a bit from their work-load. Giving some nice good passes, making some nice tackles to help defense. Making some good long-shots and making some nice runs into the box. Doing a bit of everything and I'd say a guy who can do this job would have to be pretty special as was Essien who did it previously. You say it like being able to complement two different positions and be a link in the middle for 90 mins, is an easy job. I'd say, few special players have the right attributes and well-roundedness to be able to pull that off. And no, Almiron nor Zanetti could do that. So if they were to play in the role Tiago was playing at in Lyon, they would've failed at it.

Of course Juve aren't playing that way though, so Tiago's well-roundedness and style isn't really needed for their tactic.
At the moment anyway...

At Juventus more is expected of him.

Why? And what do you mean?

Early on he was partnered with Almiron. Offensively Almiron is simply way better, as his passing-range, vision, shooting and technique are so perfect, he can actually dictate the play and have control over the tempo. So far Almiron has been playing almost faultless, amazing player. Veron in a Juve shirt.

Of course. That's his main strength.

The Veron comparison is a very good one. (Although nothing new - it's been happening for awhile since his Empoli days really) Reminded me of JSV instantly the first time I watched him a year or so back. Not just physically either :mrgreen: but the playing style as well.

Tiago can only make smart runs and pass and shoot decently. Defensively also, Almiron seemed to be the better player, much more aggression and stamina, so much more lively. Tiago's pace was off, playing at too low a tempo. Too many touches and sloppy.

Only? No. That's some of the things he does. Like we said, he does a bit of everything.

I doubt Almiron is better defensively. If I change my opinion on this in the future, I'll let you know about it though.

Can't say I agree that he has more stamina than Tiago either. After all, that's one of the only 'strengths' of Tiago. His stamina and work-rate. Everything else is only at a 'good' level and nothing special.

If his touches were sloppy and he was off the pace, you gotta remember what lo zio said as well. Almiron is by now very much used to the style of play in Italy. This is still Tiago's first days... if Almiron had moved to Portugal or France, he could've been going through the same thing... and then who knows maybe some of those new fans would be making rash quick judgements on him and dismissing his quality as a player before he's even had the choice to adapt or get fully fit.

After a few more friendlies, it was soon apparent, Juve's midfield needed a destroyer. Almiron has been playing so well, to drop him would be madness. He is the one who's making juve tick at the moment. Nocerino and Zanetti are both way more effective defensively, so Tiago has been (and should be..)dropped. Nocerino and Zanetti aren't even much inferior offensively.

Haven't seen Nocerino, so I'm not gonna talk about what I don't know.

Cristiano Zanetti definitely is inferior to Tiago offensively. That's a no-brainer. That's like comparing a real DMF to a box-to-box CM who often even makes good runs into the box to score goals and saying the DMF isn't much inferior. I very much doubt you'd be saying the same thing if C. Zanetti was still a Roma or Inter player. So maybe you're biased... but no, I'm not gonna go there. I have more respect for you than that and I hope that you do the same for me and won't in future jump the gun and reach incorrect conclusions about me.

As for Juve needing a destroyer, fair enough. I'm a big fan of every team in modern football needing at least one real DMF anyway. And since Almiron is the 'brain' and playmaker and what's making Juve tick right now, then him and Zanetti or Nocerino (assuming he's a real DMF) should be the partnership in the center of midfield for now.

Nonetheless, Claudio Ranieri isn't a stupid man and I doubt Juve board loved Tiago enough themselves, just to go and spend a lot of money and give it to Claudio as a gift.

Ranieri has his plans and surely wanted him. He knows Tiago and his qualities well enough and if he went and got him for as much as they did, I doubt it was just to warm up the bench. He must know when he'd like to use him (perhaps against some teams where he has a different tactic in mind)

EDIT:

I hope Tiago proves me wrong, but i'm not confident of that. Especially since Almiron has been such a revelation, Nocerino is incredibly talented and Zanetti adds much more security.

Zanetti definitely does add security. Because he's a real DMF and so compared to Tiago, defensively he is >>>> The Portuguese.

Almiron sounds like has been playing his heart out and is the one dictating the tempo as expected, so I hope he continues this form into the actual season (Pre-season performance and form doesn't get you points) and also keeps his place in the side because it sounds like he desrves it. Noscerino, as I said, I haven't seen enough yet. So no comment from me on him for now.

As for Tiago proving you wrong, I don't know. All I know is, it's not often I get wrong impression from players and mis-evaluate their abilities, but he's one I made that mistake on and proved me wrong. And from what it sounds like, lo zio as well. Whether he'll prove you wrong or not and whether if he actually does, you'll be man enough to swallow your pride and admit it as I did, we'll have to wait and see...

 

[Dominic]

Re: Juve midfield (Tiago, Almiron, C. Zanetti)

There is no Ligue 1 bias. Don't assume things you don't know about.

If I have a Ligue 1 bias, then I have an even bigger Serie A one. :roll:

Since I've been following Italian Calcio since before I could even put 2 words together (my dad tells me :p ) and was 3-4 years old and only started watching French football regularly around 2001 or so.

Back when I was a kid, Serie A was undoubtedly the top league and had the most amount of 'stars' and best imports. Maybe it was for this reason that in my country, the only regular league coverage was Italy's. There was also coverage of the other leagues but only a match or two every week. And I've been following it since.

Just because I don't post on this thread or the Serie A or Bundesliga one as much or for as long as I have on the Ligue 1 thread, don't assume, I like it anymore than I do these or have any sorta bias. I've been discussing it verbally among friends and in a few different places on internet (not here) for years.

I like Ligue 1 and Lyon as much as I like Serie A and Juve and I like Palermo and Milan as much as I like Lens and Marseille. All the same amounts. Totally neutral and don't particularly care for any one in particular.

The main reason it may seem like I have some bias towards Ligue 1 which is not true at all, is because it's an under-rated league because it doesn't get enough media hype. So I often have to defend it and make most people's wrong impression of it (which has been influenced wrongly by their own country's media that wants to tell them, their league is best and others aren't)

But if EPL or any other league was under-rated, I'd be defending that too. But it's not. So I don't spend any precious time defending something that doesn't need defending. Yet, Bundesliga like Ligue 1 is under-rated as well. So I have to spend time defending that too, just like I do with Serie A sometimes nowadays because some of my stupid friends are under-rating it and talking as if it's no longer a great league. :| :roll:

Whoa, sorry mate, I had no idea you would be offended. I had no intention of making any false assumptions about you. As you say, you gave me the impression of being favoured towards ligue 1, sorry again for assuming that wrongly.

You were very correct about him until the bolded part in my opinion.

What's his weaknesses? :-s


He doesn't really have any. That's the thing. He has no real strength apart from workrate and stamina and yet no real weaknesses either. Hence, his well-roundedness.

He's very much like Lucho Gonzalez in this regard. Very good player who has no real weaknesses and no real specializations either but good at almost everything. I do prefer Lucho though slightly.

Ah, bad choise of words perhaps. With 'few' I meant he has little to no weaknesses, as opposed to other players with more 'strengths' but also more weaknesses. So I agree here with you.

Why? And what do you mean?

I mean this:

Exactly.

So he plays like a true well-rounded CM. One who isn't great at anything, so shouldn't be relied on to be the sole playmaker (brain) nor the main DMF and destroyer. But he can help everyone by doing a bit from their work-load. Giving some nice good passes, making some nice tackles to help defense. Making some good long-shots and making some nice runs into the box. Doing a bit of everything and I'd say a guy who can do this job would have to be pretty special as was Essien who did it previously. You say it like being able to complement two different positions and be a link in the middle for 90 mins, is an easy job. I'd say, few special players have the right attributes and well-roundedness to be able to pull that off. And no, Almiron nor Zanetti could do that. So if they were to play in the role Tiago was playing at in Lyon, they would've failed at it.

Of course Juve aren't playing that way though, so Tiago's well-roundedness and style isn't really needed for their tactic.
At the moment anyway...

This summarizes Tiago's problem at juve at the moment perfectly. He is expected to be either the creator or either the destroyer. That's what I meant, there is more expected of him. He isn't well suited to completely fullfil either role, hence he looks pale in comparison to the other midfielders, which is perhaps an injustice, as he is not positioned in his ideal place. Then again, I do not consider him great enough to adjust the midfield to include him in his role.

Of course. That's his main strength.

The Veron comparison is a very good one. (Although nothing new - it's been happening for awhile since his Empoli days really) Reminded me of JSV instantly the first time I watched him a year or so back. Not just physically either :mrgreen: but the playing style as well.

:lol: Yeah, I suspect he has modeled himself after Veron. The way he does everything with the outside of his boot, they way he carries his socks and even cuts his hair :mrgreen:.

Only? No. That's some of the things he does. Like we said, he does a bit of everything.

Just wanted to illustrate Almiron's superiourity in attack.

I doubt Almiron is better defensively. If I change my opinion on this in the future, I'll let you know about it though.

Can't say I agree that he has more stamina than Tiago either. After all, that's one of the only 'strengths' of Tiago. His stamina and work-rate. Everything else is only at a 'good' level and nothing special.

If his touches were sloppy and he was off the pace, you gotta remember what lo zio said as well. Almiron is by now very much used to the style of play in Italy. This is still Tiago's first days... if Almiron had moved to Portugal or France, he could've been going through the same thing... and then who knows maybe some of those new fans would be making rash quick judgements on him and dismissing his quality as a player before he's even had the choice to adapt or get fully fit.

True, Tiago needs some time to adjust, but as long as he hasn't, the other midfielder warrant more of a place. Yet, Tiago won't adjust, while sitting on the bench... A vicious cycle.

Haven't seen Nocerino, so I'm not gonna talk about what I don't know.

Cristiano Zanetti definitely is inferior to Tiago offensively. That's a no-brainer. That's like comparing a real DMF to a box-to-box CM who often even makes good runs into the box to score goals and saying the DMF isn't much inferior.

True enough, but as I wrote yesterday as well, I feel Zanetti is immensly underrated and that goes for his footballing qualities as well.

I very much doubt you'd be saying the same thing if C. Zanetti was still a Roma or Inter player. So maybe you're biased... but no, I'm not gonna go there. I have more respect for you than that and I hope that you do the same for me and won't in future jump the gun and reach incorrect conclusions about me.

Thanks, but you're probably more right than wrong about me here :lol:.

As for Juve needing a destroyer, fair enough. I'm a big fan of every team in modern football needing at least one real DMF anyway. And since Almiron is the 'brain' and playmaker and what's making Juve tick right now, then him and Zanetti or Nocerino (assuming he's a real DMF) should be the partnership in the center of midfield for now.

Nonetheless, Claudio Ranieri isn't a stupid man and I doubt Juve board loved Tiago enough themselves, just to go and spend a lot of money and give it to Claudio as a gift.

Ranieri has his plans and surely wanted him. He knows Tiago and his qualities well enough and if he went and got him for as much as they did, I doubt it was just to warm up the bench. He must know when he'd like to use him (perhaps against some teams where he has a different tactic in mind)

Well.. i'm not so sure about Ranieri and his plans I'm kind of worried he doesn't know what he wants to do actually. His formations so far, looked a bit like he doesn't really who to field and where, no clear idea on who his best 11 are. And we all know, that Ranieri likes to tinker a little too much.

Zanetti definitely does add security. Because he's a real DMF and so compared to Tiago, defensively he is >>>> The Portuguese.

Almiron sounds like has been playing his heart out and is the one dictating the tempo as expected, so I hope he continues this form into the actual season (Pre-season performance and form doesn't get you points) and also keeps his place in the side because it sounds like he desrves it. Noscerino, as I said, I haven't seen enough yet. So no comment from me on him for now.

Nocerino will pleasantly surprise you when you finally get to see him play. So much energy .

As for Tiago proving you wrong, I don't know. All I know is, it's not often I get wrong impression from players and mis-evaluate their abilities, but he's one I made that mistake on and proved me wrong. And from what it sounds like, lo zio as well. Whether he'll prove you wrong or not and whether if he actually does, you'll be man enough to swallow your pride and admit it as I did, we'll have to wait and see...

I'm not sure if I can admit, I can be pretty stubborn about my taste in football players :mrgreen:.

Then again, I don't beleive objectivity exists.

 

[lo zio]

i'd say the situation is pretty simple.
by now juventus is like a virgin piece of clay. it's up to ranieri to mould it, to find the right balance.
with so many new players and with just a couple of weeks to the beginning of the season, the easiest and the smartest solution is to play a simple, easy, basic football, so juventus by now absolutely needs a pure playmaker (like almiron) and a pure defensive midfielder (like zanetti or nocerino).
in this moment juventus defence is still too inexperienced, too "new" to bear the cost of a almiron-tiago midfield line.
ranieri already realized it (don't worry Don, he knows very well what to do and that's the only reason why, in this moment, tiago is considered a backup.

when a team has so many new players or a new coach (and juve has many new players AND a new coach), playing without a playmaker is very dangerous. Most of the players still don't know "ranieri's playbook" and most important, many of them don't know each others.
so when they're on the pitch, they don't know where their teamates are supposed to be in every moment, they actually have to "look each others" and see where are they and what are they doing.... this takes time... 1 seconds, 2 seconds..... it's a lot of time in serie a. It also might happen to see them running along the pitch with no purpose, wasting their energies with no reason, just coz they ain't got a clear vision of the game and of their teammates.
with a playmaker everything becomes simpler. there is one man who is the fulcrum of the game, the ball (almost) always passes from his foot, and it's up to him to dictate the tempo of the game.
juventus has a playmaker, an awesome playmaker (almiron) a player who already knows italian football; so almiron at the moment is the most important man in juve.
but as i said before juventus defence at the moment can't take care of the defensive phase by himself, without an help.... they need a pure defensive midfielder.

but this is talking about juve current situation. in a couple of months, this piece of clay will become a team, ranieri will find the right balance talking about the defensive line, the defenders himselves will start to know each others and each player will start to foresee, to outguess his teammates movements.

when this will happen, juve will be able to bear a midfield line with camo, almiron, tiago and nedved (what a great midfield this would be!).

talking about tiago, i'd just like to say one thing. it took 6 months to start seeing platini's star shining in serie a. for his first 6 months everybody here in italy didn't understand if he was really a good player.
just give tiago a little bit of time, I KNOW he will surprise juventus fans. he just have to familiarize with the italian football, with his new teammates, with italy. moreover he has to feel confortable in juventus. As PLF correctly wrote (sure u got a great power of observation, mate tiago has to be "cool" to truly express his abilities. confidence is always an important factor for a professional football player, but for some of them, is the most important factor; the more they feel confident the more they try difficult solutions; the more they have success in their solutions, the more they get confident. it's a vicious cycle.
so there's just one way to see the real tiago; letting him play and supporting him. but in this moment juventus needs are more important than tiago needs and by now juventus most important need is a pure defensive midfielder to protect the defensive line, and filtering opponent's plays (allowing almiron to do his work).

just six months, Don, six months and u'll start loving tiago (who knows, maybe in 1 year he will be your new avatar on this forum .

he's a nice player. the comparison with lucho, is pretty good, PLF , they're quite similar (but i'd say lucho is more than "slightly better"). actually here in italy there's also one other player similar to tiago: de rossi (but de rossi too is better than him).

finally i find comparing different players like almiron, tiago and zanetti a useless exercise. they're just different.
zanetti is a pure defensive midfielder, he's not a passer, not a "cuts inside player", so he just can't be compared to almiron neither to tiago. they're all very good players.
talking about nocerino, i'd say sometimes an emoticon tells more than a thousand words: :shock: really impressive!

Bah, Palermo will get spanked in November instead.

well, let's put it this way; if we will get spanked just in november, then i'll be a happy man

This backs up my arguement about Lazio's squad being average though. If it weren't for Rossi, coming in 6th might not have been within reach.

this proves u perfectly got what i meant to say, Don. but actually the coach IS part of a team, so if he can raise the level of a team, that team can't be defined "average" anymore
and afterall mate, lazio would be more than average even without rossi, we're talking about a team that could easily get a champions league qualification spot every year... if it just would play in another league

anyway as i said before, i don't think lazio will repeat those great performances they had last season..... when u have to play 2 matches per week, almost every week, the situation becomes very tough.

Shame for your Palermo, that Rossi is the Lazio coach .

rossi is a great coach imo... but i'm quite confident in Colantuono's abilities. this season will be a tough exam for both, palermo and colantuomo

 

[SPiTFiRE]

Hi my friends,

How are Tiago and Jorge doing at Juve?

Good luck for Serie A!

 

[juveboy]

Hi my friends,

How are Tiago and Jorge doing at Juve?

Good luck for Serie A!

Jorge seems to have settled relatively well & his partnership with young Cristico looks promising.

In regards to Tiago, I think he needs more time as his performances have been needless to say underpar but we all know that he is more then capable but at this present time, he is a 3rd choice midfielder.

 

[IceMan_Bergkamp]

Any truth on Alessio coming back since he got released by Villarreal?

 

[SPiTFiRE]

Just give a time break for Tiago, he's really really damn good... we Benfica fans still miss him!

 

[badassdevil666]

Just give a time break for Tiago, he's really really damn good... we Benfica fans still miss him!

you must really miss miccoli too.

 

[lo zio]

Any truth on Alessio coming back since he got released by Villarreal?

he joined brescia (serie b). he said he wanted to stay close to home

how did the guys play 2 days ago? i didn't see the match

p.s. did anybody of u guys heard ranieri and buffon talking about domenech.....:lol: top class, both of them :applause. i still can't understand why french federation still didn't fired that pathetic loser.

p.p.s. Spitfire, your avatar is awesome. really a beautiful and funny pic
... and btw i share yor views about tiago

 

[SPiTFiRE]

you must really miss miccoli too.

Miccoli, Simão, Geovanni, Tiago, Miguel, Pesaresi (where is he?), Gio Trapattoni, Sven Goran Eriksson, Camacho...

 

[Capela]

tiago is an awesome player
at benfica he played brilliantly, then he went to chelsea and he didn't play that much. at lyon he was once again very important and i'm sure he'll be very useful to juve
just give him some time and you'll realize he's a great player

what do you think will juve's starting eleven this season?

 

[badassdevil666]

tiago is an awesome player
at benfica he played brilliantly, then he went to chelsea and he didn't play that much. at lyon he was once again very important and i'm sure he'll be very useful to juve
just give him some time and you'll realize he's a great player

what do you think will juve's starting eleven this season?

grygera/sali - andrade - criscito - chiellini

----nocerino/tiago-----zanetti-----almiron

---iaquinta/camo------trez----------dp



grygera/sali - andrade- criscito - chiellini

camo ----nocerino/zanetti - almiron/tiago - nedved

----------------dp - trez

 

[IceMan_Bergkamp]

sali played more on as SB at Bayern on the left no?

Will be good to see Almiron - he's been a monster in pre season.

 

[SPiTFiRE]

p.s. I like your avatar Pedro. It's kinda original and 'fresh'. Don't see too many others like that.

p.p.s. Spitfire, your avatar is awesome. really a beautiful and funny pic
... and btw i share yor views about tiago

Thanks mates! :mrgreen:

Oscar Cardozo p0w3r!

 

[badassdevil666]

sali played more on as SB at Bayern on the left no?

Will be good to see Almiron - he's been a monster in pre season.

dont think so, but that would be a very last resort for us

 

[nt89]

ECCOLO 5 vaffanculo tutti quanti, ma prendetevelo nel culo porco***, 5-1
trezegol
iaquintone
iaquintone
trezegoal
trezegoooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[juveboy]

David Trezeguet had a hat-trick and Vincenzo Iaquinta a brace as Juventus demolished Livorno 5-1 on their top flight comeback.

The Old Lady returned to Serie A with a new face after their Calciopoli-imposed exile. For their debut they were without the injured Alessandro Birindelli, Marco Marchionni and Zdenek Grygera, so Domenico Criscito fought fitness concerns to start. After some poor pre-season performances, Tiago Mendes was dropped in favour of Under-21 international Antonio Nocerino.

This was also a debut of sorts for Livorno, who faced their first season without Cristiano Lucarelli. Vikash Dhorasoo and former Juve midfielder Giuliano Giannichedda were injured.

David Trezeguet had a good early chance charged down and Jorge Andrade just failed to get the final touch from close range in another opportunity.

The first real chance came on 25 minutes, as Giorgio Chiellini went on a solo run and Trezeguet turned his marker inside the area, but Marco Amelia turned the shot over the bar with an outstretched foot.

Moments later Amelia parried another snapshot from Chiellini and Alessandro Del Piero had a penalty shout, but instead the referee awarded the free kick to Fabio Galante.

Juventus finally broke through on 29 minutes, as a corner kick was manoeuvered for Del Piero's swinging cross from the left and Trezeguet was allowed a free header from six yards.

Criscito closed down a dangerous Emanuele Filippini move inside the area, but Juve were dominating and Cristiano Zanetti smashed a fine strike just over the bar.

Amelia flew to palm a Del Piero free kick out of the near top corner, but after the break Sergio Almiron failed to make the most of two promising opportunities.

Livorno removed the disappointing Francesco Tavano and gave Spaniard Diego Tristan his Serie A debut. Emanuele Filippini also made way for Volpe and Vincenzo Iaquinta took over from Del Piero.

Galante had a penalty appeal for a shirt-tug from Andrade and the former Inter defender also nodded a corner kick over.

Juve ran a major risk on 69 minutes, as Grandoni's cross from the right found Fausto Rossini totally unmarked from seven yards, but his free header was off target.

They were made to pay for that error, as moments later Juventus were awarded a penalty. Pavel Nedved chipped a cross back for Iaquinta, who was hauled back by Grandoni. With Del Piero off the field, Iaquinta took the spot-kick himself and just squeezed the ball under Amelia's hand. The goalkeeper got a touch, but not enough to keep it out. It was Iaquinta's first official goal in a Juventus jersey.

Amaranto substitute Diamanti had an effort deflected out for a corner, while at the other end Trezeguet swung wildly at a Nedved cross on the penalty spot.

Juve made it 3-0 in curious circumstances. Nedved found space on the edge of the area and unleashed a right-foot shot that took a decisive deflection off teammate Iaquinta. The former Udinese striker knew little about it, but took the credit anyway.

Livorno fell to pieces and 60 seconds later Iaquinta threaded through for Trezeguet to stroke the ball past Amelia with the inside of his left foot.

In stoppages Trez completed his hat-trick tapping in at the end of a fine individual move by Nocerino.

Livorno got a consolation goal with the last kick of the game. Former Bologna midfielder Massimo Loviso smacked a long-range right-foot drive in at the near post.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Juventus: Buffon; Salihamidzic (Zebina 73), Andrade, Criscito, Chiellini; Nocerino, Zanetti, Almiron (Tiago 79), Nedved; Del Piero (Iaquinta 60), Trezeguet

Livorno: Amelia; Grandoni, Knezevic, Galante, Pasquale; A Filippini, Loviso, Pulzetti, E Filippini (Volpe 56); Rossini (Diamanti 73), Tavano (Tristan 53)

Ref: Gava

 

[SPiTFiRE]

Forza Juve, this year I will support you!

CONQUISTAMOLA - MAGLIA STORICA!