GOALS - oh good, another eSports soccer game

[Richie]

The problem with football games is the AI of the 10 players you don't control. If they are braindead it is too hard to attack and too hard to defend. Movement off the ball in offense and positioning in defense is key.
Imagine playing football and your teammates are not making any runs, just want the ball on their feet all the time. And in defense they don't react to the opposition and get constantly caught in the wrong place too far from the attacking players.
In PES 21 when I press with one player and the CPU team pass the ball I switch player to press with another one, but he's so far away from where he should have been... So you cannot press full court Klopp or Sarri style, cos your teammates don't move like football players...

 

[DevPlays]

Don't get your expectations high folks. This game is fast paced and not simulation based. Not a lie. I'm an active member of GOALS discord server. Contributors, Suggestion makers and Admins itself likes Fast paced game. They all are saying it and they're sticking to it.

 

[robbieryan]

I mean the game is literally called Goals. It is going to be able scoring worldies mad silly tricks and shit. Forget it.

 

[etb10dmk]

The guy who's in charge of making the football game called "Goalz", is this guy?


Let me guess: a FIFA FUT player (paid by EA in the past to advertise FIFA) & FIFA Twitch streamer that screams excited like a sissy when he's watching the UFL trailer will be the founder of a "perfect football game". That doesn't feel like a deluded scam at all...

 

[DevPlays]

The guy who's in charge of making the football game called "Goalz", is this guy?


Let me guess: a FIFA FUT player (paid by EA in the past to advertise FIFA) & FIFA Twitch streamer that screams excited like a sissy when he's watching the UFL trailer will be the founder of a "perfect football game". That doesn't feel like a deluded scam at all...

Yeah, this is the guy.

 

[Berjan1986]

Developer on Discord. We will share more game design decisions over time. But simply put we want to move away from the slow paced simulation kind of game that is FIFA/PES. Football games should be fast paced in our opinion (without being exaggerated).

so even more arcade than FIFA

Do you see Liverpool-Chelsea at the moment? Football is fast paced nowerdays.

I see sometimes PES 2021, gameplay patch and that is slow as hell. I don't know how people can call that realism.

 

[Emroth]

Do you see Liverpool-Chelsea at the moment? Football is fast paced nowerdays.

I see sometimes PES 2021, gameplay patch and that is slow as hell. I don't know how people can call that realism.

Its Liverpool-Chelsea. You should be ablr to play fast and speed up the game whenever you want (and have players capable of doing it). Problem starts when FC Barbers are playing ping pong Tiki-Taka, with laser guided passes and missile shots.
Nowadays games cant find a good balance between good and bad teams, good and bad players. On top of that - you have no physicality and fouls to ensure game is flowing constantly.
Its basketball - from penalty area to penalty area within seconds, throughout the whole match, with no stamina affecting anybody.
Realism should not be mistaken for fast football matches between two good teams. Its the right balance of quality, stats, error and grinding.

 

[Berjan1986]

Its Liverpool-Chelsea. You should be ablr to play fast and speed up the game whenever you want (and have players capable of doing it). Problem starts when FC Barbers are playing ping pong Tiki-Taka, with laser guided passes and missile shots.
Nowadays games cant find a good balance between good and bad teams, good and bad players. On top of that - you have no physicality and fouls to ensure game is flowing constantly.
Its basketball - from penalty area to penalty area within seconds, throughout the whole match, with no stamina affecting anybody.
Realism should not be mistaken for fast football matches between two good teams. Its the right balance of quality, stats, error and grinding.

Even bad teams in England are fast paced.
You are right about the passing and shooting. Bad teams do have more errors in passing and shooting.

I am from the Netherlands, and thats more slow paced like pes 2021 gameplay patches

 

[Emroth]

Even bad teams in England are fast paced.
You are right about the passing and shooting. Bad teams do have more errors in passing and shooting.

I am from the Netherlands, and thats more slow paced like pes 2021 gameplay patches

Yeah, a lot of people just assume that when we say Realistic - we mean slow and boring. But its far from it.
It just has to have all basic elements of football. Build up, error, physicality, fouls, cards, injuries. And grind. You should work for your goals, be forced to think, not only to have fast fingers. Goals scored this way are much more rewarding. Sometimes 0-1 results can be more thrilling than 7-5. This is something that we are trying to push here.

 

[Berjan1986]

Yeah, a lot of people just assume that when we say Realistic - we mean slow and boring. But its far from it.
It just has to have all basic elements of football. Build up, error, physicality, fouls, cards, injuries. And grind. You should work for your goals, be forced to think, not only to have fast fingers. Goals scored this way are much more rewarding. Sometimes 0-1 results can be more thrilling than 7-5. This is something that we are trying to push here.

Try again

I saw the most of PES 2021 gameplay patches, and its so slow i feel asleep when watching.

 

[Emroth]

Try again

I saw the most of PES 2021 gameplay patches, and its so slow i feel asleep when watching.

Not sure where did I mention Pes21 as a representation of what I mean by realistic. Its you who called Pes21 realistic, not me. Try again.

 

[Berjan1986]

Not sure where did I mention Pes21 as a representation of what I mean by realistic. Its you who called Pes21 realistic, not me. Try again.

I thought you was a pes2021 modder.. But not?

I reacted on "This is something that we are trying to push here.".... So i thought you was a pes 2021 modder.

 

[Emroth]

I reacted on "This is something that we are trying to push here.".... So i thought you was a pes 2021 modder.

No, no, im not a modder. Wish I had talent for it.
What I meant was - we are trying to push realism, in general, on Evo-Web (most of us anyway), but I dont think Pes21 is a good example of this. Some do, some love it.
I think Pes21 is sluggish, shallow, unresponsive, unbalanced and stats mean nothing. There's very little variety there and every team plays the same.
I have no satisfaction from scoring goals on Pes21 even tho I play on Full Manual settings.

If there's one thing to take from that discussion - is that Realism does not equal slow. Its much more complex than that.

 

[Dennis_87]

I saw the most of PES 2021 gameplay patches, and its so slow i feel asleep when watching.

When you see a video don't be sure that that's the way that the game actually plays.
The creator of these gameplay patches that you say is obssesed with slow gameplay.He plays on -2 speed so the videos are on -2 speed gameplay.I also think that it's way too slow and unrealistic that way.Football is not sooo slow..I tried to tell him once but he replied that i play online so i'm wrong lol..
Anyway..the game on default 0 speed is not like what you see in these videos,that's what i mean to say..And if you like it even faster you can go up to +2 speed if you want..Personally i find it just fine on default 0 speed..

 

[Madmac79]

If there's one thing to take from that discussion - is that Realism does not equal slow. Its much more complex than that.

Wish I could like it more times. Rythm is generally SO overrated in this kind of discussion.

 

[bugTHisMothafucka]

Do you see Liverpool-Chelsea at the moment? Football is fast paced nowerdays.

I see sometimes PES 2021, gameplay patch and that is slow as hell. I don't know how people can call that realism.

Don't be fooled by these people. They don't actually want a simulation of modern football, they want the games to feel like their sunday league football. You might have time to think what to do next in sunday league football, but in Premier League, that time simply doesn't exist. It's all about rehearsing patterns of play and reenacting them in the matches.

 

[Joga]

Don't be fooled by these people. They don't actually want a simulation of modern football, they want the games to feel like their sunday league football. You might have time to think what to do next in sunday league football, but in Premier League, that time simply doesn't exist. It's all about rehearsing patterns of play and reenacting them in the matches.

you are exactly what these companies want. Preacher parrots & trolls. "They dont want real football , they just think they do. They are too slow & dumb for real football". All you know is to insult other peoples intelligence.

What level of football did you get to? Maybe there are some people that have played semi-professional football here. Maybe they know ALOT more than you do?

Go play whatever garbage you want to play, but don't come in here & try to tell people what they know about football.

 

[PRO_TOO]

When you see a video don't be sure that that's the way that the game actually plays.
The creator of these gameplay patches that you say is obssesed with slow gameplay.He plays on -2 speed so the videos are on -2 speed gameplay.I also think that it's way too slow and unrealistic that way.Football is not sooo slow..I tried to tell him once but he replied that i play online so i'm wrong lol..
Anyway..the game on default 0 speed is not like what you see in these videos,that's what i mean to say..And if you like it even faster you can go up to +2 speed if you want..Personally i find it just fine on default 0 speed..

I think, putting a game on -2 is to conquer that hectic passing from AI, but yeah… the whole game suffers when doing so.
as @Emroth said it, slow doesn’t mean realistic per se. Versatility is needed, not only for animations and outcomes but in game speed as well. A real match is cluttered with de- and increasing pace of players/the team!

 

[Joga]

I recently found out (via using speedserver on 2021) that every team has a set game speed. They change the physics of the whole game to replicate a teams play style.. where is the logic? For example arsenal games at the emirates are played at nearly +2 game speed. Console players cannot get around this.

 

[vialli82]

If i'm right as i've already heard about it and talked about it before, it's not physics but it's how they replaced "pass speed" that was in fact, from an old book, one of the "overall teamwork stat" as Seabass explained, on PES 5 or 6 book; was composed by Teamwork/Short and Long pass speed/ was giving the rythm of a team. Precision of pass played their role too of course...

But the issue if that even in those games who everybody thinked they're the best : there were some tricky things very wtf.
One big example is you can test again (it has already on a very old vid) Passing Speed > Passing Precision. And Teamwork was hell to rate, as their was not only passes included, but also positioning Attack/Defense/Reaction...

Well the BIG difference is now, the difference will be marked by Passing and Attacking/Defending in terms of individuality, but the overall teams will get "-2" on that speed of execution.
Now both Passes and Attack are linked to "rythm > so the new Low and Lofted passes includes passing speed on it, same as and Attack to Defense includes reactions on it not only positionning like the past. (More detailled : speed of positionning and reacting on practically everything in Attack or Defense depending how high is the Attack or Def Prowess stat)

So : not physics but stats related, like an Overall teamwork. I just explain a bit from what i've understood and readed from the pass (as all those old stats relations was hell to rate), not like i agree with it.
They tried to found a way to keep the Teamwork system in a more simple way, more overally, less indiviually / even if like i said there's individuality of teamwork on pass, attack and defense.

The biggest issue about Teamwork stats : it was when a player is transferred to another team. Messi would be -20 in teamwork on PSG than he was on Barca if that stat still existed. In fact, it's an well thinked stat, but not from the long term in my opinion.
That stat is very, very linked to "Adaptability" let's say. Personnally, i would introduce that stat, but not teamwork. Messi got an Unknown adaptability from others clubs, but you can see that on his whole career he got some hard moment with his National Team.

Well, the idea was good, but it's hard to give an effect on that stat, how to manage it. A player freshly transferred on ML got his teamwork stat decreased on PES 1 to 6 if i remember well. But on one single match separated, the impact of it... Well. Honestly i prefers without : just because it's far too complicated to rate it correctly on 99. The effect of it on PES was like a combination of multiple, let's say 4 or 5 stats in FM.

 

[Joga]

If i'm right as i've already heard about it and talked about it before, it's not physics but it's how they replaced "pass speed" that was in fact, from an old book, one of the "overall teamwork stat" as Seabass explained, on PES 5 or 6 book; was composed by Teamwork/Short and Long pass speed/ was giving the rythm of a team. Precision of pass played their role too of course...

But the issue if that even in those games who everybody thinked they're the best : there were some tricky things very wtf.
One big example is you can test again (it has already on a very old vid) Passing Speed > Passing Precision. And Teamwork was hell to rate, as their was not only passes included, but also positioning Attack/Defense/Reaction...

Well the BIG difference is now, the difference will be marked by Passing and Attacking/Defending in terms of individuality, but the overall teams will get "-2" on that speed of execution.
Now both Passes and Attack are linked to "rythm > so the new Low and Lofted passes includes passing speed on it, same as and Attack to Defense includes reactions on it not only positionning like the past. (More detailled : speed of positionning and reacting on practically everything in Attack or Defense depending how high is the Attack or Def Prowess stat)

So : not physics but stats related, like an Overall teamwork. I just explain a bit from what i've understood and readed from the pass (as all those old stats relations was hell to rate), not like i agree with it.
They tried to found a way to keep the Teamwork system in a more simple way, more overally, less indiviually / even if like i said there's individuality of teamwork on pass, attack and defense.

I see. Ofcourse it is not easy to get these balances balances correct in a videogame. It is just disappointing that throught-out the years, they have made the game simpler instead of building further on the what they had. The game went backwards in alot of areas.

I have recently been playing a little WE9LE & PES2012. And without the nostalgia glasses, yes I can see the faults & bugs of the games. But alot of them can be attributed to technical limitations. Now "we have the technology!" .. they are just using shortcuts.

EDIT: Sorry, this thread was supposed to be about GOALS! lol oops .. carry on GOALS! good luck!

 

[vialli82]

No, to me it's not simplier only for that case : it was too complicated. I edited the post below, i just can't found how to rate a player on 99 on that stat, knowing how influent it was. There's things removed, but some doesn't tilt me that much, like the one i cited. WAY too complicated to rate, when you know they interract with each other. And passing speed was more effective in terms of passing success, example a 70 pass accuracy but 90 pass speed on a very long straight pass will be too fast to be intercepted.
So more efficient than passing accuracy overally (you could've made more difficult passes with pass accuracy btw, smarter ones such as Zidane passes, but sometimes too slow for defender so intercepted easier than an approximative one but very fast)


Shoot technique for exemple was easier. There's hidden stats only Data editor got access that i gotted no idea : passing technique (influes the overall "kickig" on any position / including shoots technique) Covering as a defending stat (didn't asked for it). There's 4 stats like this. I remember 3 and already talked about it, one i don't remember. For existing players. Data editors can see it, but they're greyed and they can't change it. Only the player evolution i think...
Was editable until PES 2014, sad.

Needs to found the panel of hidden stats, but some were added, i think Agression was one of them, not sure.

And there's others hidden thing we could've edit in the past : like the player evolution, the system didn't changed in fact : it's just no more editable. Such as Market value. very annoying to be honest and it's normally on the core database. That's why you can create two player exactly similar : you won't get at all the same value and and the same evolution graphics / neither the same max overall (or Potential is a better word)

 

[Emroth]

Now "we have the technology!" .. they are just using shortcuts.

Its not even shortcuts. Its deliberate dumbing down to make the game easier and have more goals.

On Pes you play with 80+OVR player and he will pass with exact same accuracy as 60+OVR. I remember playing early Pes with default ML players. Buying one player between seasons, who would have 70OVR was making huge difference to a team. Stats means nothing these days.

Since more or less 2016/17 they gradually started removing any sort of learning curve, dumbing down AI, taking weight from the players, removing inertia, increasing overall accuracy in everything.

Even Fifa16, which I play constantly over the last couple of days (and consider the closest to fun-sim we got in the last 10-15 years), I went back to vanilla version and noticed how much more inertia was there at the beginning. How challenging and rewarding dribbling was. Even back then they started the process of simplifying everything in order to make the game faster and easier.

New games replaced learning curve with arcade challenge. How fast you can position your defender, can you intercept ping pong passing, can you run into attacker before he gets rid of the ball.
Games are going backwards. Those mechanics were the core of old crappy arcade games.
Its like nobody wants to learn anymore. How to tackle, how to aim, how much power to apply, when to dribble, how to trap the ball, how to position your player, when to kick the ball. People want to press the button and have a missile sent towards the keeper - regardless of situation.

There's no patience to learn anything. Kids just want instant success. 7-5. Now thats the fun score!

 

[Joga]

There's no patience to learn anything. Kids just want instant success. 7-5. Now thats the fun score!

100% The instant gratification thing. There are also lots of newer fans that don't/can't even watch a full 90 minutes of football. Which is fine, I can't sit through a game of golf or baseball. But that's why I don't play golf or baseball games lol.

I guess this is just them catering to a wide audience & making football "accessible to everyone!" ( yes I am putting it nicely.. it actually means they just want EVERYONE to try and spin for Ronaldo or Haaland.)

 

[Chris Davies]

100% The instant gratification thing. There are also lots of newer fans that don't/can't even watch a full 90 minutes of football. Which is fine, I can't sit through a game of golf or baseball. But that's why I don't play golf or baseball games lol.

I guess this is just them catering to a wide audience & making football "accessible to everyone!" ( yes I am putting it nicely.. it actually means they just want EVERYONE to try and spin for Ronaldo or Haaland.)

Just so heartbreaking that other "genres", like racers, have "sim" versions and "arcade" versions (both of which are important, and fun to play, in their own ways).

Football? Pick your flavour - eSports 1v1 "fun", eSports 1v1 "fun", eSports 1v1 "fun", or...... eSports 1v1 "fun".

 

[vialli82]

FTM, the only Esport focused game who gives me a real big interest is Esport Boxing Club.
There's even a career mode and all. But Boxing games are super fun offline, it's not the same sensations at all as arcade fighting games.

Well online UFC was atrocious as everyone was about submissions, so i hated to play it online (well, in Boxing, it's strikes and strikes, i love it)

Just that Esport is making "for professionals" but from what i care... It looks super good as a VS game. I kinda liked UFC 1 and 2, but i'm much, much more into Boxing and legends of the rings that MMA.

 

[Joga]

FTM, the only Esport focused game who gives me a real big interest is Esport Boxing Club.
There's even a career mode and all. But Boxing games are super fun offline, it's not the same sensations at all as arcade fighting games.

Well online UFC was atrocious as everyone was about submissions, so i hated to play it online (well, in Boxing, it's strikes and strikes, i love it)

Just that Esport is making "for professionals" but from what i care... It looks super good as a VS game. I kinda liked UFC 1 and 2, but i'm much, much more into Boxing and legends of the rings that MMA.

Did you see the great boxing match ? Tyrone Woodley did the setup punch, change levels & go for a take-down against paul ? He kept doing this & then clinch. He totally forgot which game he was playing

 

[etb10dmk]

Just so heartbreaking that other "genres", like racers, have "sim" versions and "arcade" versions (both of which are important, and fun to play, in their own ways).

Football? Pick your flavour - eSports 1v1 "fun", eSports 1v1 "fun", eSports 1v1 "fun", or...... eSports 1v1 "fun".

Football= eSports 1v1 "fun", eSports 1v1 "fun", futcoins packs 1v1 "fun", a halloween horse cadaver stuffed like a colored unicorn with some blue and yellow sparks on it 1v1 "fun" ... I still remember your unicorn part from the the podcast

 

[Chris Davies]

Football= eSports 1v1 "fun", eSports 1v1 "fun", futcoins packs 1v1 "fun", a halloween horse cadaver stuffed like a colored unicorn with some blue and yellow sparks on it 1v1 "fun" ... I still remember your unicorn part from the the podcast

If GOALS doesn't feature a giant inflatable unlockable cat called Creampuff, I'm not downloading it.

To clarify, that is something that exists in FIFA.

 

[Emroth]

Im not even sure why are we discussing realism and football logic in this thread.
There's no hope for this game looking at people behind it and their mindset.
Besides - it looks like a school project, where they will get bored, or quit after encountering first hiccups.
There's much more hope with the other game, which is in development over 5 years now. Here - they started shouting how genius their game will be without having a fucking sketch drawn..