FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

slamsoze said:
At least they left a pretty rich legacy:
The BaL mode, The snow and weather effects, the linesmen referrers, the 360 movement, the coin flip.... Well screw the coin flip :P

I always wonder what could happen, if both teams KCEO and KCET worked together from the beginning and combined all ideas of ISS, We, GoalStorm, ISS Pro Evo.
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Yeah I've always tought about it myself. Maybe it would have been too much of a work for the hardware of the era, but it's nice to wonder anyway. A game with the best features of both would have killed anything for a loong time in an even more brutal fashion.
 
Madmac79 said:
One of my favourite reviews ever was an ISS 64 one in which the guy went as far as heavily insulting whoever bought Fifa 64 rather than ISS (yeah, the magazine didn't care much about political correctness :LOL: ).
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And rightly so!
I had both games (as a 12-year-old I asked my parents to buy me FIFA as, you know, I came all the way from FIFA International Soccer... Then tried ISS and decided there was no match, so I got it too with my hard-earned tips as my parents rightly wouldn't buy me both of them) so I can definitely confirm this is the case.
Anyway, do you perhaps remember which review it was (or maybe also have a link)? Curious to read that if it's still around. 😄
 
*aLe said:
And rightly so!
I had both games (as a 12-year-old I asked my parents to buy me FIFA as, you know, I came all the way from FIFA International Soccer... Then tried ISS and decided there was no match, so I got it too with my hard-earned tips as my parents rightly wouldn't buy me both of them) so I can definitely confirm this is the case.
Anyway, do you perhaps remember which review it was (or maybe also have a link)? Curious to read that if it's still around. 😄
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He said a magazine, plus 90's so i think a link is impossible. :)
I can also confirm, and now it makes sense to what @Madmac79 said before, that for some reason back in 1996, being 10yo, I did knew FIFA but not ISS, no advs no promo about ISS.

It was XMAS of 1996 and my father asked me to order an Snes game for present. I needed a footy but I was knowing only FIFA, so I ordered whichever FIFA he finds.
He came a night after work, giving me my present, but it was something unknown. ISS name, two cartoony players in the label, no FIFA logo...He did not find FIFA 96 or 97 and the shop clerk suggested to buy ISS instead of some older FIFA.
OMG, I said. I can't describe my little child's heartbroken disappointment. On the one hand I tried to be polite cause it was XMAS and cause my father very rarely bought me video games, although he was a gamer in his youth, last game he played was in the 80's the DK with DKong as villain and Mario/Jumpman as the hero.

But I felt totally wasted and depressed, I was thinking, my present chance was fakin wasted, I must wait until nameday or birthday for a new chance, 4 and 7 months latter respectively.

My father seeing the disappointment in my face told me that he knows this KONAMI company (lie) and that they are goodfame developers, my father is a computer programmer too, and proposes to boot up and play a 2p VS. Me still having the screens of FIFA in my memory, cause I had rented in from a video club last summer, agreed to play only one game just to please my father. Usually the opposite was happening, me begging for one game and parents say only one.
We booted up, he picked Germany, I picked Netherlands, second shock here, the players were "unknown". My father contributed to my shock, trying to explain that maybe they couldn't afford licensing etc.
In my 10yo brain all those sounded extra-terrestrial, my only thought was, I got an unnamed soccer, with cartoon game cover, only NT teams and freaking fake players!!! What a disaster... :(

The rest is history.. :) We played two games, GER-HOL and BRA-ARG, then he got tired, I stayed and played 1pVScom, many matches up until late night, thanks to XMAS!!! I was so extatic fascinated by the gameplay, felt so jaw-dropping. And I could not even score a goal. The next day I played all day long, trying to score just a goal, and achieving it after the first 20 matches I think.
Then I loved Allejo, Gomez, Branco, Ferreira more than the original Selecao!!! After I played ISS deluxe, ISS 64 and 98 on N64, which was the second jaw-dropping moment in my football gaming life. On 2001 I finally got my own N64 with ISS2000, then PSX with all ISS pro and PES 1 & 2. Finally the last real jaw-dropping moment was the PES 3 on PC.

But it was funny that a lie told to me by my father "those Konami are OK guys, whatever they create is good" as an excuse, defined my early video gaming life. They had awesome games to be honest, CastelvAnia, TMNT, Goemon, NBA give an'go. Whatever video game of Konami i bought, I never doubted about it!
Only until after I bought Pes2008 for PC...
 
slamsoze said:
My father seeing the disappointment in my face told me that he knows this KONAMI company (lie) and that they are goodfame developers
[...]
But it was funny that a lie told to me by my father "those Konami are OK guys, whatever they create is good" as an excuse, defined my early video gaming life.
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What if it wasn't totally a lie?

Konami released an arcade game named Premier Soccer before they started working on ISS, and it was indeed a pretty good football game for the period (1993):

​

As a bonus, I'll drop also a short video of "Soccer Superstars" (their second football game, dated 1994):

​
By the way, Soccer Superstars' flyer (here) inspired at least two other covers...
 
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@slamsoze Really nice recount mate. Also, all in all your father lied but totally got it right even if by chance :) .

@*aLe It was Game Power. I still have the paper magazine, I rever this piece as the ultimate game review as even if it talked about ISS 64 it pretty much nails perfectly how I feel about the whole Konami soccer saga. I liked it so much I was tempted to translate it for the folks here. Maybe in the next future :) .

Anyway, by pure luck it's also online, the number stocked on the internet archive with many others. Here it is : https://archive.org/details/Game-Power-63/page/n41/mode/2up
.
 
*aLe said:
What if it wasn't totally a lie?

Konami released an arcade game named Premier Soccer before they started working on ISS, and it was indeed a pretty good football game for the period (1993):

​

As a bonus, I'll drop also a short video of "Soccer Superstars" (their second football game, dated 1994):

​
By the way, Soccer Superstars' flyer (here) inspired at least two other covers...
Click to expand...
They had also KONAMI HYPER Soccer. 1992 NES/Famicom. According to Wikipedia it was their first football game and part of "Track & Field" series.
Seems they started far before EA the footy development, that's why they were always one step ahead gameplay wise, at least in the early years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konami_Hyper_Soccer
 
I won't be buying either titles anymore. So sick of the constant patching and gameplay changes. I can never settle into the game properly.

Both companies should be sued for mieading consumers.
 
slamsoze said:
They had also KONAMI HYPER Soccer. 1992 NES/Famicom. According to Wikipedia it was their first football game and part of "Track & Field" series.
Seems they started far before EA the footy development, that's why they were always one step ahead gameplay wise, at least in the early years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konami_Hyper_Soccer
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I spent countless hours with Konami Hyper Soccer to that time. My avatar is from the game.
But to be honest, it was pretty bad compared to similar footy games on the C64 for example.
There was no referee in the game and it had no fouls. Not too different from the current PES iterations, one could say...
 
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slamsoze said:
They had also KONAMI HYPER Soccer. 1992 NES/Famicom. According to Wikipedia it was their first football game and part of "Track & Field" series.
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Yeah, you're right. I remember hearing about it, but I actually never played it so I overlooked it. From what I say it doesn't hold up very well anymore against his younger "cousins" though.
The first Konami game I played was Premier Soccer and it kinda blew me away (at least compared to Euro League which was the only other football game at the arcades at the time).
Well, arcade games should have a thread of their own though, they've nothing to do in here (apart from this obviously).
 
superleeds1 said:
Konami must be looking over their shoulder too.The sooner this element is removed from gaming the better all round.
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I agree.

I predict that this will all come to a head at some point. It IS gambling and completely unacceptable in this day and age when the industry is so heavily monitored. It disgusts me how greedy a company can be. They know people are spending hard earned on their game and then on top of that spending thousands (millions?) of quid every year on FUT/myClub.

It will definitely be clamped down on. Maybe not this year or even next year. But it’s only a matter of time.
 
*aLe said:
What if it wasn't totally a lie?

Konami released an arcade game named Premier Soccer before they started working on ISS, and it was indeed a pretty good football game for the period (1993):

​

As a bonus, I'll drop also a short video of "Soccer Superstars" (their second football game, dated 1994):

​
By the way, Soccer Superstars' flyer (here) inspired at least two other covers...
Click to expand...

The memories..For me this was the most refined and best version of ISS..

Vastly superior to ISS 98 and 2000..just had everything and the level of user control is unparraled even by modern standards..

After touch anyone!..When gameplay was king..360 movement and you could put the ball on a dime..Rain,snow,thunderstorms and you felt the real impact of soggy pitches..

What it didn’t do visually it made up for in spades in terms of AI,player awareness and generally capturing the essence of competitive football.You literally controlled the players feet.

Unlockable teams included the great European cup winning teams of Ajax and Juvenitus when they had Zidane and Henry..

Amazing series that has so much to offer to current gen outings..
 

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StrangelyEnough said:
The memories..For me this was the most refined and best version of ISS..

Vastly superior to ISS 98 and 2000..just had everything and the level of user control is unparraled even by modern standards..

After touch anyone!..When gameplay was king..360 movement and you could put the ball on a dime..Rain,snow,thunderstorms and you felt the real impact of soggy pitches..

What it didn’t do visually it made up for in spades in terms of AI,player awareness and generally capturing the essence of competitive football.You literally controlled the players feet.

Unlockable teams included the great European cup winning teams of Ajax and Juvenitus when they had Zidane and Henry..

Amazing series that has so much to offer to current gen outings..
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Completely agree. Jikkyou J.League 1999 Perfect Striker is a fantastic game. I've talked about it some time ago here.

BY the way, unlocking Ajax or Juve :SHOCK: ?! I'd love to see how is it possible, with the japanese menus it's already a miracle I started a J-League :D .
 
Madmac79 said:
Completely agree. Jikkyou J.League 1999 Perfect Striker is a fantastic game. I've talked about it some time ago here.

BY the way, unlocking Ajax or Juve :SHOCK: ?! I'd love to see how is it possible, with the japanese menus it's already a miracle I started a J-League :D .
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You simply win the j-league or cup to unlock Juventus and Ajax plus a number of South American teams including boca..There’s also world dreams and Japanese dreams to unlock as well around 7 international sides including Italy,France,Argentina,Germany.

There’s so many layers of control to this game including the way you use small bursts of dash to create angles and skin defenders.The variety felt almost infinite and it was so well complimented via the n64 controller.

Me and a good old friend sunk atleast 4 years of our life’s into this game competively against each other..

As pictured I still have the original cartridge,although the battery back-up has probably expired by now..

There are a number of versions on the Japanese ps2 including world soccer and perfect striker 3 that have greater visual fidelity..Sadly the frame rate on those titles is a little lacking as is the polish compared to the n64 versions.Below is the ps2 version which I ran on a Japanese ps3 with a ps2 chipset inside(early edition).The ps3 smoothing gave the overall fidelity a welcome boost as well as the frame-rate.



Wonderful times!..
 
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StrangelyEnough said:
You simply win the j-league or cup to unlock Juventus and Ajax plus a number of South American teams including boca..There’s also world dreams and Japanese dreams to unlock as well around 7 international sides including Italy,France,Argentina,Germany.

There’s so many layers of control to this game including the way you use small bursts of dash to create angles and skin defenders.The variety felt almost infinite and it was so well complimented via the n64 controller.

Me and a good old friend sunk atleast 4 years of our life’s into this game competively against each other..

As pictured I still have the original cartridge,although the battery back-up has probably expired by now..

There are a number of versions on the Japanese ps2 including world soccer and perfect striker 3 that have greater visual fidelity..Sadly the frame rate on those titles is a little lacking as is the polish compared to the n64 versions.Below is the ps2 version which I ran on a Japanese ps3 with a ps2 chipset inside(early edition).The ps3 smoothing gave the overall fidelity a welcome boost as well as the frame-rate.



Wonderful times!..
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Very interesting. This Perfect Striker 5 version of series is the equivalent of ISS3 KCEO for pc/ps2?

I mean the rebooted ISS series for pc/ps2 after ISS2000 that had 3 iterations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Superstar_Soccer_3
 
slamsoze said:
Very interesting. This Perfect Striker 5 version of series is the equivalent of ISS3 KCEO for pc/ps2?

I mean the rebooted ISS series for pc/ps2 after ISS2000 that had 3 iterations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Superstar_Soccer_3
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Those iterations weren’t particularly good and were very bare bones in comparison..By then pes had already taken its foothold..

Fundemently perfect striker 3 and world soccer 2000 were psx/n64 ported code with world soccer 2000 being in the Japanese launch line up back when the ps2 launched in that territory,perfect striker3 followed also within that year..There is also a world soccer 2000 final edition and world soccer 2000 under 21s.

I wouldn’t recommend any of the Japanese or European reboots that appeared in the market place there after ie perfect striker 4/5 or iss2000 on the pc.There all very unfinished and don’t even resemble the earlier games under the Major A banner..

There is a interesting winning eleven/perfect striker hybrid that appeared on the GameCube only in japan,but it’s very unfinished and is a shell of pes/winning eleven on the ps2..A interesting curiousity but nothing more.
 
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Two games published by two companies that have completely changed their strategies when it comes to football gaming. No longer is the purist considered, the thinking man who wants a realistic and deep experience.

E-Sports rules now. End-to-end action, FUT coins and myClub points are the order of the day. The majority of people who buy these games don’t play Master League and Career Mode. So why should EA and Konami care about these modes?

Sure, both games come bundled with these modes still but it all feels forced and shallow. But I can put up with a dull Master League if the gameplay is good (PES 2017 for example). Both games seriously fall short here. PES 2020/2021 are great for a few minutes of fun but dig any deeper than that and the ugly stuff appears. Terrible AI, an archaic shooting mechanic and gameplay which still feels like it belongs in 2010 rather than 2020.

I haven’t played FIFA 21 yet. But from people’s feedback on here, it sounds atrocious. FIFA in my opinion has been getting worse year after year. I loved FIFA 14, and also 15. But slowly and surely it’s been deteriorating since then. The more popular FUT has become, the worse FIFA gets. And it will keep getting faster and more ridiculous because it’s what the kids want. They want goals, tricks, skillz, showboating and Neymar’s latest shit hairstyle all in 4K, 60 frames per second.

Football gaming is over. It was great fun while it lasted but a new generation of gamers are here now and the majority always rule when it comes to consumerism and sales.
 
Consider this:

Konami is making you pay half of the normal price for a game with two missing licenses and a couple less stadiums, but with slightly better gameplay

EA is making you pay full price for a game with entire leagues removed (Serie B, etc) and even worse gameplay

I think this time Konami took the best decision by far.
 
Mikhail said:
Two games published by two companies that have completely changed their strategies when it comes to football gaming. No longer is the purist considered, the thinking man who wants a realistic and deep experience.

E-Sports rules now. End-to-end action, FUT coins and myClub points are the order of the day. The majority of people who buy these games don’t play Master League and Career Mode. So why should EA and Konami care about these modes?

Sure, both games come bundled with these modes still but it all feels forced and shallow. But I can put up with a dull Master League if the gameplay is good (PES 2017 for example). Both games seriously fall short here. PES 2020/2021 are great for a few minutes of fun but dig any deeper than that and the ugly stuff appears. Terrible AI, an archaic shooting mechanic and gameplay which still feels like it belongs in 2010 rather than 2020.

I haven’t played FIFA 21 yet. But from people’s feedback on here, it sounds atrocious. FIFA in my opinion has been getting worse year after year. I loved FIFA 14, and also 15. But slowly and surely it’s been deteriorating since then. The more popular FUT has become, the worse FIFA gets. And it will keep getting faster and more ridiculous because it’s what the kids want. They want goals, tricks, skillz, showboating and Neymar’s latest shit hairstyle all in 4K, 60 frames per second.

Football gaming is over. It was great fun while it lasted but a new generation of gamers are here now and the majority always rule when it comes to consumerism and sales.
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Sorry to say but EA never really had the purist in mind, so that was exepcted.
It's Konami that disappointed me so much because they completely denied their vision of what a football game should be just to follow EA and its FUT.
 
Both games have been on the decline for several years because Konami and EA are more focused on profiting from selling coins/points from their respective online modes. Neither game provides the satisfaction of build play and scoring goals for me. Now we have to hope that next gen console technology will improve gameplay next year. Fingers crossed.
 
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Ameppe said:
Sorry to say but EA never really had the purist in mind, so that was exepcted.
It's Konami that disappointed me so much because they completely denied their vision of what a football game should be just to follow EA and its FUT.
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Thats not quite true. Ive had blast playing Fifa over the years with tweaked sliders and offline gameplay, it was probably more sim than Pes at times. It sounds horrific this year, half assed for the FUT crowd and Pes 21, well, I've been enjoying it.

But both games are into moneterisation and its a shame. I think there is a real niche for someone to come along and take the market for the purist out there. however licensing will be a problem.
 
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Ameppe said:
Sorry to say but EA never really had the purist in mind, so that was exepcted.
It's Konami that disappointed me so much because they completely denied their vision of what a football game should be just to follow EA and its FUT.
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I would slightly disagree. Pes tried to ride the arcade style football game after 2014 realism attempt failed. 2015, 2016 at least resembled ice hockey more than football. And Fifa was slowing down, and introducing better keepers tech etc. before they switched engines. Fifa 16 was honestly quite good for the time.

Last few years Fifa has been going full in on the FUT and the volta stuff though. I mean I get it, it's obviously the more lucrative business model than catering to the much smaller crowd of people who want realism in football games.
 
I'm gutted by FIFA's terrible defending problems this year - so I've been playing more PES 2021.

First game I play tonight...

My goalkeeper runs behind the striker to let him score. Very purposefully.



What a time for football games.
 
Chris Davies said:
I'm gutted by FIFA's terrible defending problems this year - so I've been playing more PES 2021.

First game I play tonight...

My goalkeeper runs behind the striker to let him score. Very purposefully.

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Although that is a terrible goal, what really happened is that in Pes the keepers never defend the front post properly. They always leave a bit of room there for whatever reason. It's like their "zone of control" is limited to a tight angle in front of the net. So in that case, it's not scripting or any shenanigans, just basic bad keepers in Pes. That's why it's usually always best to aim for front post in Pes if you're in a tight angle, the keepers don't really have the positoning or animations to properly deal with the shots coming there.

I'm not sure why the keepers are programmed to defend the net like that, but my guess is that if they allowed the keepers the freedom to cover the front post properly their decision making would too often leave the middle of the net and back of the net uncovered. So it's like a band-aid solution.
 
I started a Be A Pro game in FIFA, and a Become a Legend game in PES, at the same time.

Man, if this isn't the year that I drop football games like a bad habit...

In FIFA, AI defenders just let you walk past them. I'm supposed to be an OVR 66 Tranmere Rovers midfielder, but defenders back off and in some instances LITERALLY RUN AWAY FROM ME. Of course, my defenders do the same to AI players (although second-man-press does actually work in this mode) - and pass accuracy, dribbling skills etc. are through the roof (even at League Two LEVEL), so it feels like I'm playing for PSG and the scorelines get really silly.

In PES... I'll be damned if it's not even worse somehow. You sign for a random team in the league you pick - Wycombe, in my case - and they only want to play long balls. Which is realistic - except, they literally refuse to do anything else, including pass from a defender to a midfielder.

I laughed my head off, playing as a CM, as I watched my defender pump the ball to their defence, and then their defence pump it back to my defence, for an entire 90 minutes, as I just stood watching in the middle of the pitch. When I got subbed, it was even funnier, because you could see it on the radar view. The entire midfield line moving back and forth like waves on a beach, never being given the ball.

Both games are developing the gameplay for online, then bolting on offline modes that are just menu screens to make you feel like single-player sports gaming is still important to these guys.

It's just heartbreaking, man. To think of the excitement I had as a kid playing PES, at where I thought the game would be 20 years later. Then microtransactions appeared, and... That was that.
 
I might be in the minority here, but I was happy enough with PES2020, got the season update and im really enjoying it, feels totally different, more responsive with a wide variety of goals, im also just getting into manual which is making it even more interesting.I bought FIFA20 recently on the store for around 6 quid, everything about it was good until I played the actual game, its just not close to resembling football.Ive been reading and watching reviews for FIFA21 and it seems like theyve made it even worse.
 
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