FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

[Chris Davies]

Its only starting to be scary, when the only thing people are noticing, is that Neymar is missing left ear ring..

I was thinking about this the other day. Outside of this forum, people's main observations are that licenses are missing or that Pogba's hair isn't right.

Who's in the right? Guys like us who discuss gameplay and what it does better/worse than before and better/worse than FIFA ... or guys who go "it's a game, I play it, if I like it, I carry on playing it"? Because it is just a game after all...

There's no "right", I know. But it makes me think I must be mad sometimes, not being able to just enjoy a game for what it is.

Except, I can - I play Football Manager, Gran Turismo and a few other games without ever really criticising them. Because nothing stands out and makes me go "that's terrible, that needs to change". So - is that because those games are a better quality product with better production, or that their producers focus on realism and I like realism? Or is it that I'm not paying as much attention?

I don't know, and all this is off-topic now, but... It's been bouncing around in my head for the past few days.

 

[Chuny]

Dear Christopher:

You don't think that making a gif (or a full quality video) out of particular situation, a particular moment, where X (you, me, whoever) spotted an issue, getting rid of the contextual elements that might be involved in that situation, are a way of scrutinising the game and putting it through the ringer?.

Don't get me wrong, I think those gifs and videos do help when they are forwarded to Konami's representatives. If not to get them fixed in a future update, at least to make them know we see them and we'll keep an eye out.

But it's still a way of denial. In the sense that we can't accept it's just a game. It's going to be flawed. It's going to annoy us after a while. And like someone else said on some other thread, I think it's just a matter of which flaws can you live with and put up with or overlook, and which flaws are unacceptable and ruin your experience.

For me, the inability to dribble and take on defenders on FIFA, since Frostbite (17, 18 and 19) have been a turn-off. As an Argentinian, we HAVE that in our DNAs. We are dribblers. We like to take on defenders. From Di Stefano, to Maradona, to Ortega, Aimar, Riquelme, Messi, etc. I cannot like or accept a game that doesn't allow me to do that.

And I'm not even fucking talking about wanting it to be EASY. Just, doable. FIFA 16 has it and it's AMAZING. PES 13 has it and it's AMAZING. PES 2020 seems to have it, happens a little less often, and it's harder to pull off, but it's there and I like it too.

So I can maybe put up with other flaws like a too direct play from AI (even if I did spot it right away and even posted it here on Evo-Web after playing the first 4 or 5 games with the Demo) or I can live with some very poor teams having too many perfect passes, but I couldn't tolerate not having good dribbling mechanics or no player individuality.

That's why the catch-up bug introduced in PES so many years ago (and in some FIFA versions too) was a knife stabbed in my back. It deprived players from all indivisibility. It prevented them to shine.

When you rank PES 2017 so high, I usually don't agree because it had that freaking catch-up bug.

I went a little off the initial concept of the post but yeah... you get the point!

With love.

Sincerely yours,

Chuny.

 

[rockstrongo]

Its funny how even this simple statement can differ for us all.
When we say "AI plays the same way" each of us can have a different thing in mind.

For me it was a gamebreaker on Pes19. But when I say "AI plays the same way" Im thinking about low cross, pass and tap in, with surgical precision, into the top corner.

So Im happy with Pes20. I see AI doing skills, vary in set pieces, going down the wings, through the middle and sometimes surprises me with shot from distance. Im not getting the feeling that every match feels the same, at least not so far.

Chris might be looking at this with wider approach, getting annoyed that Fulham plays similar, direct football as Juventus. And he is right to do so.

Like he said - its just a matter of our own priorities and preferences and what is standing out for us.

Its only starting to be scary, when the only thing people are noticing, is that Neymar is missing left ear ring..

If the full game plays like the demo,I'm sorted for real,bit more fouls(but who knows on 29 min right?)
I'm really excited for this game
The control you have over the ball is pure porn to me.
And doing it on PA0?
Mama Mia!

 

[Redhat]

I said to @Emroth the other day, I nearly started a new thread, because I'd be really interested to know what everyone's "three hard no's" are for a football game. But I think I'm the only one interested.

His #1 is "no physicality/fouls", and that's why FIFA is immediately a no for him. Probably you too, @rockstrongo. Personally, I totally agree with this, yet it's not in my top three. Mine would be... #1 AI that plays the same way every match, #2 Ping-pong passing, #3 Lack of potential for error in every pass/shot.

So I can forgive no fouls, even though it's a huge deal. It's not in my top three issues. Which shows you two things, 1) how desperate I am for the AI to be better, and 2) I'm definitely not a perfectionist...

Exactly. I'm not perpetually expecting the perfect game that has zero noticeable faults, but hoping for one I can enjoy despite its faults. Everyone has different bug-bears and thresholds for what that might be. I also think that would be an interesting thread idea.

 

[Emroth]

Do you remember my "little game" Im playing in the demo? Having to win two games in a row, in order to advance to next team. And I cant change players and tactics between matches.
Anyways - whole last week im trying to get pass Man.Utd on Top Player Full Manual. Everytime I win one game they manage to win one back and knock me down to 0 wins.
Man.Utd is direct to bits, they have this mad trio at the front and are killing me with long passes and quick counters. Lukaku is an absolute Rhino on the ball, I cant take this fucker down.
So thats me whole week. Playing with same team, against same team. On 5 mins demo. And I still enjoy it. And matches still feel different, even tho Utd plays the way they play (head wrecking football)

On a flip side - I watch a clip of F20, where people are saying Look at positioning, and the way they are building up their attack, the way they do runs and how are they aware of the ball... but all I see are soft, weightless tackles and cant focus on anything else..

So yeah - when something is on our priority list - its hard to see anything pass that.

 

[Chris Davies]

On a flip side - I watch a clip of F20, where people are saying Look at positioning, and the way they are building up their attack, the way they do runs and how are they aware of the ball... but all I see are soft, weightless tackles and cant focus on anything else..

So yeah - when something is on our priority list - its hard to see anything pass that.

Absolutely bang on.

I look at that FIFA 20 positioning etc. and I'm pretty happy, as well as when you can see attributes really changing this stuff (as I said, FIFA 19, the first month or so, I was writing about playing as Tranmere and how I had a few good players who I relied on - which is why I used to love early PES ML's).

The bad ball physics on standard passes, I'm just used to, and the fact is that there's so much more variety to passes and shots that are all much more contextual, means that I overlook that it moves like glass on basic passes - and I don't see the lack of physicality, I just don't notice it.

But if someone points it out to me, I can't say "that's not there" or "that's not a problem" - that's the difference between us and fanboys, I think. I know there are no fouls in FIFA and I know it's a huge problem, and I really want them to be there. I know that the ball is a bit too heavy/fast on standard passes.

But that positioning / ball physics variance (meaning badly scuffed shots and terrible passes) etc... I can't live without that, because there's no fouls. But I totally get why others can't.

 

[mfmaxpower]

For me, the inability to dribble and take on defenders on FIFA, since Frostbite (17, 18 and 19) have been a turn-off. As an Argentinian, we HAVE that in our DNAs. We are dribblers. We like to take on defenders. From Di Stefano, to Maradona, to Ortega, Aimar, Riquelme, Messi, etc. I cannot like or accept a game that doesn't allow me to do that.

And I'm not even fucking talking about wanting it to be EASY. Just, doable. FIFA 16 has it and it's AMAZING. PES 13 has it and it's AMAZING. PES 2020 seems to have it, happens a little less often, and it's harder to pull off, but it's there and I like it too.

This is almost a jaw-dropping take for me, as I find dribbling in FIFA - especially in 19 - to be massively OP. I found it so OP that in my last CMs I was specifically making sure that I wasn't signing top level attackers because there just wasn't a challenge. Even on Ultimate you could too easily do 30-yard runs, taking on multiple defenders.

Meanwhile in PES I find it extremely difficult to take on defenders, especially at pace beyond the default movement speed. Dribbling and taking on defenders in PES is one my major criticisms, and I hear it regularly for why people don't want to switch from FIFA.

Maybe it's just that I'm not nearly as experience with PES anymore as I am with FIFA - maybe you're the opposite? - but I'm pretty shocked that someone would think that taking on defenders is easier in PES than FIFA. I mean, it's kinda what FIFA is all about, for better or worse (and it's definitely the latter).

 

[Redhat]

For me, the inability to dribble and take on defenders on FIFA, since Frostbite (17, 18 and 19) have been a turn-off. As an Argentinian, we HAVE that in our DNAs. We are dribblers. We like to take on defenders. From Di Stefano, to Maradona, to Ortega, Aimar, Riquelme, Messi, etc. I cannot like or accept a game that doesn't allow me to do that.

And I'm not even fucking talking about wanting it to be EASY. Just, doable. FIFA 16 has it and it's AMAZING. PES 13 has it and it's AMAZING. PES 2020 seems to have it, happens a little less often, and it's harder to pull off, but it's there and I like it too.

Chuny.

I know what you mean when it comes to dribbling between Ignite and Frostbite, but it's not impossible in the latter. It might not be ideal, but it's definitely not impossible. More to the point, it's possible without the use of copious amount of skill moves. The main caveat in that statement is that the patches have made it much more difficult FIFA 19 because they've seemingly reduced the amount of momentum and inertia as the year went on.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I was thinking about this the other day. Outside of this forum, people's main observations are that licenses are missing or that Pogba's hair isn't right.

Who's in the right? Guys like us who discuss gameplay and what it does better/worse than before and better/worse than FIFA ... or guys who go "it's a game, I play it, if I like it, I carry on playing it"? Because it is just a game after all...

There's no "right", I know. But it makes me think I must be mad sometimes, not being able to just enjoy a game for what it is.

Except, I can - I play Football Manager, Gran Turismo and a few other games without ever really criticising them. Because nothing stands out and makes me go "that's terrible, that needs to change". So - is that because those games are a better quality product with better production, or that their producers focus on realism and I like realism? Or is it that I'm not paying as much attention?

I don't know, and all this is off-topic now, but... It's been bouncing around in my head for the past few days.

I know exactly what you mean, but for me it's simply because these football games aren't that good compared to what we've been treated to this generation.

IMO this is due to two things: 1) the annual release cycle, and 2) I believe football games are likely some of the hardest to program in the industry for when it comes to animations and AI. (And I'm tempted to add a third: that sports titles tend to not draw the top devs in the industry.)

That's my take at least. I totally think our frustrations and harsh criticisms are valid, as it feels like we're taking a big step down in quality when you go from some of the top AAA titles out there to these football games.

 

[manmachine]

Except, I can - I play Football Manager, Gran Turismo and a few other games without ever really criticising them. Because nothing stands out and makes me go "that's terrible, that needs to change". So - is that because those games are a better quality product with better production, or that their producers focus on realism and I like realism? Or is it that I'm not paying as much attention?

Other games are more focused so it's easier to not screw up pleasing your potential customers and they also have more competition (maybe not football manager but it's certainly a tightly focused niche genre). You want a serious racing game? There's one for you. You want an arcade one? There're plenty.

Enter Fifa... A football game with little competition. Some people want it to play like football while a growing user base wants a game that's not realistic because "it's just a video game". Now it wants to be a competitive game, but it also wants to be easy to play to be enjoyed by everyone. Can it make up its mind? Then someone could make the argument that fifa has transitioned into a football themed casino game anyway. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Chuny]

Maybe it's just that I'm not nearly as experience with PES anymore as I am with FIFA - maybe you're the opposite? - but I'm pretty shocked that someone would think that taking on defenders is easier in PES than FIFA. I mean, it's kinda what FIFA is all about, for better or worse (and it's definitely the latter).

Oh no - I suck at both!

But when you say dribbling and taking on defenders in FIFA is OP, you mean WITHOUT using the Tricks Stick?

 

[Lobbedball]

I definitely dig going at defenders in fifa it is so good passing a good 3 players before laying it off to a clear striker for the win..i have installed the sliders recommended by @Chris Davies and im enjoying it as a career mode with girona from la liga,very realistic scores

 

[mfmaxpower]

Oh no - I suck at both!

But when you say dribbling and taking on defenders in FIFA is OP, you mean WITHOUT using the Tricks Stick?

No, I just meant dribbling in general. But even the simplest ball roll or shoulder dip in FIFA can freeze an AI defender, while L1 close dribbling is pretty OP in the box.

But if you're handicapping yourself by not using the tools at your disposal, then yes it's quite more challenging.

 

[Chuny]

No, I just meant dribbling in general. But even the simplest ball roll or shoulder dip in FIFA can freeze an AI defender, while L1 close dribbling is pretty OP in the box.

But if you're handicapping yourself by not using the tools at your disposal, then yes it's quite more challenging.

No, not handicapping myself.
I mean using the left stick, and then combining it with sprint button AND close control.
Just like in FIFA 16!

I mean like this:

 

[Lobbedball]

No, not handicapping myself.
I mean using the left stick, and then combining it with sprint button AND close control.
Just like in FIFA 16!

I mean like this:

im surprised fifa 16 still has a player fanbase, especially offline, but animations are rigid for my taste now

 

[flokiman]

No, not handicapping myself.
I mean using the left stick, and then combining it with sprint button AND close control.
Just like in FIFA 16!

I mean like this:

This animation is way too fast and instant. Not realistic.
That's the main cancer of FIFA animations. Some partial animations are extremely fast compared to the whole flow of the game. This happens everywhere, especially when passing and changing direction.

 

[Chuny]

This animation is way too fast and instant. Not realistic.
That's the main cancer of FIFA animations. Some partial animations are extremely fast compared to the whole flow of the game. This happens everywhere, especially when passing and changing direction.

I think it's perfect.
And also, I think there's a distinction that should be made:
Pre-FrostBite animations were better timed.
Now, WITH FrostBite, they've always prioritized responsiveness in favour of realistic pace, foot-planting and convincing outcome. That's why players slide into position before they take a shot or before they perform some magic skill move.

I don't think the animation in the video I posted is too fast at all. I think it's a product of momentum.

 

[Peter Withe]

PES is so far behind FIFA in terms of presentation, atmosphere, commentary and overall package now that it's scary. ON the pitch PES is better but still bland in front of goal and scoring goals in PES still feels really boring.

But playing the FIFA 20 demo has made me realise what an effort EA actually put into their product every year but it could be argued that this is easy when you've got a bigger team, finances etc.

It's just such a professional product compared to PES now. Like I said in the PES thread earlier, PES 2020 feels like one of those quirky games you download from Steam when you're drunk for £15.

 

[mfmaxpower]

PES is so far behind FIFA in terms of presentation, atmosphere, commentary and overall package now that it's scary. ON the pitch PES is better but still bland in front of goal and scoring goals in PES still feels really boring.

But playing the FIFA 20 demo has made me realise what an effort EA actually put into their product every year but it could be argued that this is easy when you've got a bigger team, finances etc.

It's just such a professional product compared to PES now. Like I said in the PES thread earlier, PES 2020 feels like one of those quirky games you download from Steam when you're drunk for £15.

Couldn't agree more. I usually wear headphones when gaming and I had to take them off last night when playing the retail release of PES because of how god awful and disappointing the atmosphere and commentary is.

And while I agree that PES's gameplay is probably better, these games are priced the same and PES's gameplay alone isn't that much better to make up for the differences in everything else.

 

[Peter Withe]

Couldn't agree more. I usually wear headphones when gaming and I had to take them off last night when playing the retail release of PES because of how god awful and disappointing the atmosphere and commentary is.

And while I agree that PES's gameplay is probably better, these games are priced the same and PES's gameplay alone isn't that much better to make up for the differences in everything else.

When I say PES’ gameplay is better, I mean that it’s better than PES 2019 i.e. PES is better this year than it was last - it’s probably the best PES since PES 2013 for me.

But it’s still PES. Everything looks and feels a little dated now. It’s still like a PS2 game with shiny 4K graphics. Which is fine in a way because the PES games were so good back then. But I need more from my football fix now.

That being said, I’ll try and enjoy Master League this year because I do like how challenging PES is compared to FIFA’s single player.

 

[Redhat]

There are elements that I really enjoy from both games this year, but Jesus, this is one of the most disappointing time periods for football games in as long as I can remember. At least when Konami was in shambles during the transition to Xbox 360 and the PS3, the PS2 games were still relatively fresh (and FIFA 09 was around the corner). This year, this year is just... a bit depressing.

 

[Filippo-Inzaghi]

Yes. It's pretty obvious.

FIFA is the world anno 2019. It's massive. There is a lot of content. The presentation is spot on. The sound experience is massive.
The eyes, the ears is given a wild experience. An addictive one at first. I do think they still are trying to present the sport as the most glamorous edition of it. It's really are the Champions League and the Premier League. It's perfect on first sight.

But I do think they are taken advantage of it. The word of mouth is incredible for EA - "Wow, have you seen it". The goals, the dribbling, the perfect passing, the tiki taka with Burnley. You can dream all the way.

For me.. After a couple of hours with it. I do see it though. It's repetitive - it's small changes - and its soulless for me. I can't feel a difference between Chr. Eriksen or Lucas Lerager on the ball technique or not even the passing technique. I just think it's too perfect. Soccer isn't perfect.

PES is everything else. Not perfect. I can feel the above mentioned difference between players. I do think in some way they replicate other leagues in the world. EA was the Champions League and Premier League. PES and Konami stands for every other league there is played through the year in Europe. It's less perfect. The stadium is less packed. There isn't a tifo every time you go to the stadium. You won't see tiki taka from Genoa with a bicycle kick at the end every time. It has the soul. It's soccer.

I kinda like it. Like that it's old school. More real. That some games stand out. Some games was just 1-0 with mispasses and bad touches. Ugly.

I would wish that they just had invested just a little in the sound experience. I mean.. But why? Why are we having that bad commentators in the same time as we have an incredible frustrating sound from the stands. I mean just small few changes to give the sound a notch could have done a lot for this game. It would also be in line of the leagues they are trying to promote.

 

[flokiman]

i am a keen PES fan.
Since Pes 2013 till today, i think PES represents the real sport better.
Back in 2011, FIFA 11 was a revelation for me. I think it was my top game i fell in love in my gaming history.
The day i tried FIFA 11 demo (it was night tbh) i couldn't stop playing. Everything seemed too perfect, smooth, solid, and next gen for me (coming after the stale and obsolete PES 2010). I can recall that i played 14 consecutive seasons.
FIFA 12 killed some of the smoothness, Fifa 13 was ok with the free ball spining and unscripted controlling, but PES 2013 demo was better for me for some reason. PES 2014 was the most anticipated game and a huge let down after trying it, FIFA 14 was ok with some fidel doctor mods (soccer gaming modder).
Any way for me PES 16, 17, 18, 19 was a must buy, not giving a real chance to FIFA's as i was dissapointed from the jerky animations. I skipped tottaly FIFA 18, as i was astonished by the smooth PES 2018 (but boring somehow).
PES 2019 is a very good game for me, highly playable, so PES 2020 is well anticipated.
But.....
5 days ago i tried FIFA 18, with 2 mods (fidel doctor agpe gameplay mod, and Lod Fix that makes level of detail in game much higher, and animation quality also).
I think this is the best soccer simulation i ever played.

The reasons why FIFA 18 felt better and why PES 2019 felt cheap and very off-gen are below:


-footplanting : The best till today. Fifa 19 was a little worse in order to become more responsive
-shot variety: Shots differ a lot, with many misskicks, and variable trajectories.
-cpu fouls/penalties: Cpu does commit fouls and penalties (In PES 19 thats a major problem)
-stats matter more: Stats like speed agility and strength are noticable in field
-marking and midfield play: I love the fact that cpu marking makes me to follow a more build up style of play, i use my body and inertia to protect the ball, i have to think the next pass etc. PES is more end to end with a lot less midfield play
-collisions: Better but not the best ever, good body and ball interaction, shouldering and minimal clipping
-more than 2 players jump for headers. In pes only 2 players jump, sadly...
-graphics: compared to vanilla PES 19 graphics i think FIFA 18 has better lighting and more realistic turf.
-content : not much to comment here
-skills do work: Skills are effective with right timing, whereas in PES 19 a lot of skills are a sure loss of possesion no matter how
-misskicking: i ve seen it a lot in shooting and in passing, pes 19 is more forgiving.
-tactical defending: makes you sit on the edge of your chair, with very focused defending and well timed standing tackle. PES 2019 makes you pushing cross plus square the most of the time, making defending less immersive
-atmosphere: Stadiums, crowd, intros, chants, effects are much more well worked than PES 19.
-pass and shoot target lock: you can change the direction of your kick just before the player kicks the ball. In pes the target locks just after you press the button, which is very restricting and leadingo to dumb pass misplacing
-commentary: That is the state for many years now. PEs is repetitive and somehow staged.
-no rails : the rail feel (players stucked to a certain path) of PES 19 is not present in FIFA 18.
-better visuals :Like crowd animation, waving kits and hair, shirt pull, and much more weather effects.
-cpu do dribble the ball and is not constantly passing like in pes 19
-handball: no such thing in PES
-better net physics: In pes every time the ball hits the net it travels towards the center of the net mesh, no matter the direction or the power.
-better modern menus
-overall much better presentation

Being an offline player, FIFA 18/19 is a joy to play

My biggest FIFA 18/19 gripes are:
-Ball feels too linear, and does not follow curved trajectories in passing. Also it does not bouncy realistically even in a heavily worn pitch
-Some animations are executed too rapidly. That happens mainly in cpu passing.
-Some animations are a little bit cartoonish
-Ball size is somehow a bit small. Fifa 19 fixed that.


So i really can't wait for FIFA 20!
One week earlier i thought PES 2020 would be the way to go.

Above i quoted myself.
As you can see i report in which areas FIFA does better job.
All these do still stand for FIFA 20. But it is time to do PES 2020 some justice.

PES may have less points in favor, but they have major significance.

1. Feel of player weight: Running, dribbling, skill moves, setting the body for pass or shoot. Everything is much more life-like compared to FIFA and the feel when you control a player is just right. In FIFA players look weigthless with no inertia/momentum on their movement.

2. Times in animations and overall animation quality: Some are judging it being "not responsive". But the truth is that, like in real soccer, some things do take some time to be executed. For example a pass, if the ball is 1-2 m away, player should first take a step to set his body and then kick the ball. In FIFA all these "mid-animations" are compressed and very fast-forwarded, in order to be more responsive. In replay mode, if you watch closely FIFA animations, you will notice limbs (legs) to move unnaturally fast, not in accordance with the whole body. PES is more coherent and natural.
Fifa has more animations, PES has better.

3. Game speed: Fifa feels frenetic, whereas pes is more grounded and slower. I do not use the term "tactical" because i don't know which is more tactical.

4. Graphics: PES 2020 graphics are a step upwards compared to PES 2019, and beat FIFA 20 in terms of photorealism, texture clarity, stadium variance (in terms of lighting), and turfs.

5. Ball size and physics: PES 2020 (the final release) has very nice ball physics, much improved compared to PES 2019. The ball has more freedom, is a separate entity from players, and the new control system is where all these shine. FIFA 20 also has improved ball, but physics are inconsistent and strange to player animations. I noticed quite a lot of times player model to execute an animation for a very strong pass, and the ball travels like a bowling ball few meters away. Regarding ball size, since FIFA 17, EA has an unexplainable problem replicating the true size of a soccer ball. PES is spot on.

So, only 5 points for PES 2020, but they are the most important: Ball physics, game speed, animations and player feel are the core of a soccer game.

 

[Thespeedster84]

Agree.. I think, the other stuff are just "nice to have".

 

[mfmaxpower]

There are elements that I really enjoy from both games this year, but Jesus, this is one of the most disappointing time periods for football games in as long as I can remember. At least when Konami was in shambles during the transition to Xbox 360 and the PS3, the PS2 games were still relatively fresh (and FIFA 09 was around the corner). This year, this year is just... a bit depressing.

I think you could say the same thing about this entire generation. Think I've had my eyes on next gen for a couple years now, just praying it'll be better.

 

[rockstrongo]

Pretty sure the decline of football games has nothing to do with hardware
The scene and the customers has changed.
Like blaming your 4k for having shit programs.
The world has changed that's it.
But maybe TV and movies will be "better" when we get 8k ey?

 

[mfmaxpower]

Pretty sure the decline of football games has nothing to do with hardware
The scene and the customers has changed.
Like blaming your 4k for having shit programs.
The world has changed that's it.
But maybe TV and movies will be "better" when we get 8k ey?

I disagree. For me, one of the biggest things holding back both PES and FIFA is the AI. I'm also pretty sure that we've been told that these football games have some of the most demanding and complex real-time computations, which I'd like to think is why both games struggle with player awareness and loose ball situations, among other things.

It's also not a coincidence that FIFA has barely had a graphical upgrade in years that's noticeable.

I agree you can't blame the entire generation on the hardware, but I do think both games stagnated hard midway through the gen cycle. At least that's what I'd like to think, because then there's reason for hope with the next gen, since the word is AI improvements will be some of the most noticeable upgrades.

 

[rockstrongo]

I disagree. For me, one of the biggest things holding back both PES and FIFA is the AI. I'm also pretty sure that we've been told that these football games have some of the most demanding and complex real-time computations, which I'd like to think is why both games struggle with player awareness and loose ball situations, among other things.

It's also not a coincidence that FIFA has barely had a graphical upgrade in years that's noticeable.

I agree you can't blame the entire generation on the hardware, but I do think both games stagnated hard midway through the gen cycle. At least that's what I'd think, because then there's reason for hope with the next gen, since the word is AI improvements will be some of the most noticeable upgrades.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong,mainly seeing other games being better and better,not football games,but NHL, NBA racing games etc.
They have taken it to the next level on this gen.
Maybe developers focus on other thing than ai now,rather more interested in content and feeding the fast rewards the brain gets,just like it's on social media etc.
Like I said,hope your right and I'm wrong

 

[Chris Davies]

I hope you're right and I'm wrong,mainly seeing other games being better and better,not football games,but NHL, NBA racing games etc.
They have taken it to the next level on this gen.
Maybe developers focus on other thing than ai now,rather more interested in content and feeding the fast rewards the brain gets,just like it's on social media etc.
Like I said,hope your right and I'm wrong

Oh man, Rocky, your last 3-4 posts I've agreed with so much that I've got to reply at this point.

It hurts to see the heights other sports games are managing to hit - not just atmosphere etc. but the important stuff, GAMEPLAY and REALISM - whereas football games are barely, BARELY changing.

When you sit and think about all the unrealistic things (and restrictions) that are in both games from a gameplay perspective, it just makes you sad - and I'll never be able to stop seeing it - and it never evolves.

I don't think we could honestly say that PES or FIFA have made significant leaps in gameplay year-on-year for a long time. It's always slight tweaks to a few things, and the list of things you hate just stays there, being shit, until next year. And when it rolls around, it's still there, so you wait another year...

I don't think the AI in either game is poor because of power limitations. I think it's poor because it's made to shape the online experience, but of course, you need the AI in every mode - so whatever they do for myClub / Ultimate Team (so in the FIFA 20 demo, making AI defenders just stand and wave bye as you run past them)... We have to put up with it.

@mfmaxpower - I have the same dream as you, in terms of next-gen saving us. But if they had ALL THE POWER IN THE WORLD for AI - would either dev want to make it as realistic as possible? Or would they keep focusing on making an AI that makes you feel your input was vital, that the skill gap is balanced and that makes you play more / spend more online?

Single player guys don't contribute enough money to their coffers for them to make a separate AI for us. That's a huge job and an entirely new game's worth of work. I think that's our true hope - that they split some modes into separate games.

But I doubt they think they'd sell. And they probably wouldn't. So. It's not a bright future.

 

[rockstrongo]

@Chris Davies thanks buddy.
I'm sure that "limitations" on current gen is wishful thinking or to be more blunt,sticking your head in the sand.
Every other game takes leaps forward on current gen,they also understand the need to have all customer bases involved.

The casual gamer who just plays a few games/races every now and then on fully assisted setting

The online player who plays a
different setup online,more arcadish,but yet competive

The career guy who grinds out game after game/race after race to create his own story

I'm really disappointed in how FIFA has evolved gameplay wise,and equally disappointed that Pes doesn't evolve in presentation etc.
Nothing says it's down to limitations,FIFA can bang out 30+ stadiums in a year or so,but not a realistic gameplay?
Pes can present a pretty good gameplay but not create a TV like presentation?
Because of limitations?
Not buying it!

Some of the online gaming is going in a very arcadish direction some in a very nerdy sim direction (racing mainly)
But both these still have the option to do both in their games

And I agree completely with what you say mate.
Really depressing
Like supporting your team (in my case one league win, and no cup wins since the team was created in1889)
"There's always next year"