FC Barcelona Thread

i think it's just pointless to even try to compare players from different ages. even if u actually know those players and the teams they played in, it's just impossible to establish any sort of rankings. i'm 32 today, during maradona's prime i was actually living in napoli... i've seen him playing live at the stadium dozens of times, and i know that napoli team as much as i know the current palermo team..... and yet i couldn't honestly tell who's better between maradona and messi.
i never thought i'd see a player as great as maradona because to be quite frank, diego was just unreal.... but then again, so is messi. besides does it really matters?

u could ask this question a thousand times, to a thousand people, u'll always get a different answer, none of wich will be an objective answer.... some will say the past legend is better because the myth eventually outgrows the player itself... some others will say the current legend is better because "the new thing is always the best thing"... some will pick the player they're more attached to.,..... some others will just talk shit as they don't even have enough knowledge to actually have an opinion.
but eventually who really cares... maradona, messi, crujff, baresi beckembauer, scirea, pele.... they're all Gods.... messi is already on his way to join this "mount olympus of football". let's just be glad we got the chance to see some of theese players performing.
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the only somewhat rational conclusion i may draw about the messi-maradona debate are that...

maradona achieved greatness in the thoughest league in history (for an offensive player, i mean). infact, while i completely agree with what u said about how football was played decades ago, sina, that doesn't apply to that specific time and place.
serie a in the late 80s was a nightmare for an offensive players. those were the last years of some sort of a footballing dark age. most of the teams in italy used to display ultra-defensive formations and tactics (u guys certainly heard the word "catenaccio" before, right?).
u guys all know the myth about italian football being boring and defensive. anyone of u who actually follows serie a will know that's just bullshit today.... but that myth wasn't born out of nowhere... there was a time when this myth was actually true, there was a time when serie a was indeed a boring league with teams playing ultra-defensive football. and maradona played exactly during the last years of that era.

and another thing i can say is that maradona played in a weaker team than this barça. as Gerd said that napoli team was much more than decent. it was a sublime team.... much better than today's napoli... but not as good as today's real madrid or barçelona.

those 2 points should favour maradona. but there are also arguments on messi's favour. this little monster is still 24 and he's already a legend. he's been putting together some freaking numbers since he was 20, and, crazy as it might sound, he's getting better each year. the current messi is much better than the 22 years old messi and i can't even imagine what a player he will be once he'll reach his growth peak (wich is around 27-28 years old). he's already been "on his prime" for 4 years (wich is only 1 year less than maradona's entire peak) and it doesn't look like he's gonna stop anytime soon.

so there are valid arguments to prefere each one of em.
in theory i should be maradona's nr 1 fanboy. i grew up watching him playing. he used to play for my second favourite team, the first game i watched in a stadium was a napoli-bari game (in wich diego was absolutely unbelievable)..... i even got to know the man.....
... but to be honest i don't know if maradona was better than messi. i really can't tell because they are\were both amazing. and i'm absolutely happy with that.
 
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i dont want to put in comporation carra to puyol or anyone but i want to say that barca defence isnt that strong , oh and yes i see carra playing in barca not just him but almost all profesional defenders , damn i want to say my self too :LMAO:

coz most of time they are just turist and dont do nothing so this makes them great coz other team (example vs Arsenal CL dont make even 1 single shot in 90min) so i can be great defender there or even a great keeper

valdez its nightmare in my opinion leave what he won , one joe hart can win same if was there , also one reina , de gea and so

i dont like Milan more than barca thats sure coz i dont like any of them and i dont care who its going to win that match but i say what i think and see , so best defender of Barca its Messi , Xavi , and Iniesta
 
Just like Ben said, i wouldn't know who is the best player of all times. Let's just enjoy Messi now.
There is however one thing in Sina's post i don't agree with: that is that football is much more cynical nowadays. Football as a whole (that is on and off the pitch) is more cynical, but that is due to what happens off the pitch (the way the weakth is divided). On the pitch i actually think football was more cynical in Maradonna's era. I remember the 1990 WC for example as one of the most cynical and brutal i've ever seen (and i've seen them all since 1970).
Sina was saying in this thread that it's a miracle Messi isn't more singled out for brutal fouls, well Maradonna had to face the likes of Goecochea (the butcher of Bilbao), Gentile and Vierchovod...nowadys defenders are more cultured imo (although that was roughly also the era of Scirea, one of the most cultured defenders ever).
 
Good points guys.

Yeah it's really hard to say. For me, though, at 24 years of age, I'd say he's already pretty much equalled everything the greatest past legends have done. If this guy was to RETIRE tomorrow, he'd be right up there with the 2 best players the world has ever seen! But he's f'n 24!! He's younger than me! lol

Anything he goes and does in the years he has remaining is a 'Bonus' and for me will put him up as the World's greatest ever. And we're probably only 'halfway' through the Messi show which began since his Barca debut years ago!

But like Ben said, this is all very subjective and given the massively different circumstances each player's faced, you can't really rationally compare any of it any way.

@Valon, I don't agree at all. Valdes, Puyol and Pique are all great players and Barca would not be the same without them. If you take Puyol the Captain out alone, Barca isn't the same invincible powerful organized Barca. There was a great statistic about how Barca only lose when Puyol doesn't play (injured, suspended) earlier this year. Go check it out. The 5-6 games Barca loses, guess what? All have something in common! No Captain Puyol. That itself tells a big story. And Valdes is great at 1-on-1's and has really grown as a keeper yet remains very under-rated due to some 'mistakes' he made, some long ago!

As for Pique, no comment. If someone can't see this guy's talent, then I don't know what to say...
 
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I phrase which made sense to me is Maradona was Maradona some of the time, Messi is Maradona all of the time. he's going to be aiming for 70 goals a season and in reality his goalscoring is the bonus of his minndblowing dribbling skills and amazing passing skills at that.
 
if someone says Barcelona has a bad deffense its due to one of the following reasons:

1) he probably doesnt watch too much football.
2) he watches a lot of football, but doesnt understand it.

Being the team with less goals against in La Liga for 4 years now, conceding very few goals in Europe. Months without conceding at home...

The problem is all that people that still thinks in terms of past football. Barcelona plays with 11 defenders. And most of them play incredible off the ball zonal pressure in the opponent field. That places the last men in the halfline, exposed to dangerous counters.

And yet the opponents only shoot an average of 3 times per match on target. Plus, having more possession is a way of defending as well. it is 4 years since the last match that barcelona had less than 55% of possession.

Valdes is one of the best goalkeepers in 1vs1 and the best in the world playing with his feet. And thats just what barça needs. Why would I want a keeper good at crosses when the opponents hardly cross?

All in all. I would say that barça has one of the best deffenses around and the ideal goalkeeper. its only that the midfield and MEssi are so dominant that some people without the proper information would think otherwise by comparison.
 
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YoungGun_UK said:
I phrase which made sense to me is Maradona was Maradona some of the time, Messi is Maradona all of the time. QUOTE]

That is IMO a great way to describe both Maradonna and Messi.
The thing with Maradonna like i remember him was that in his best moment he was absolutely unique, pure genius, without a doubt the best ever. And those are the moments that are constantly shown now. Besides that Maradonna had lots of very average games. Don't forget he totally flopped with Barcelona, he had a very average 1982 WC (that famous picture against Belgium disturbs me a lot, because we won that match and Maradonna was average), got even sent off...He was absolutely brilliant in 1986 (but also showed his darker side with the hand of god goal), good in 1990 and once again average (and drugged) in 1994. Between 1986 and 1990 he was at his best in club football, but even during that period he was not constantly brilliant.

Players like Pele, Messi and maybe even Cruijff were perhaps less brilliant in their peak periods, but they were consistingly exceptionally good. If i would compare these players (and i agree with Ben that basically you can't) i would think Messi and Pele are certainly better than Maradonna, i also tend to think that Cruijff was better.

Or otherwise:

Maybe Pele, Messi and Maradonna are the 3 best players ever. But Cruijff was the most influential one. He was the one who created total football (and not Michels, don't get fooled by that myth), he was the one who created Barcelona's current playing style and now he is the one who is destroying Ajax.
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Gerd said:
well Maradonna had to face the likes of Goecochea (the butcher of Bilbao), Gentile and Vierchovod...nowadys defenders are more cultured imo (although that was roughly also the era of Scirea, one of the most cultured defenders ever).
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Vierchowood doesn't belong to the "gentile and Goikoetxea" category Gerd... he belongs to the scirea category. pietro was without a doubt the most underrated cb in the history of the game. he should be mentioned along with the most legendary performers in his role.
PLF said:
Yeah it's really hard to say. For me, though, at 24 years of age, I'd say he's already pretty much equalled everything the greatest past legends have done. If this guy was to RETIRE tomorrow, he'd be right up there with the 2 best players the world has ever seen! But he's f'n 24!! He's younger than me! lol
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yep, that's the crazy thing. that's why by the end of his carreer his legend will probably outgrow any other player in history.
Younggun said:
I phrase which made sense to me is Maradona was Maradona some of the time, Messi is Maradona all of the time. he's going to be aiming for 70 goals a season and in reality his goalscoring is the bonus of his minndblowing dribbling skills and amazing passing skills at that.
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Gerd said:
That is IMO a great way to describe both Maradonna and Messi. The thing with Maradonna like i remember him was that in his best moment he was absolutely unique, pure genius, without a doubt the best ever. And those are the moments that are constantly shown now. Besides that Maradonna had lots of very average games.
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that's not correct guys. in his prime maradona was as consistent as messi is today. from 1986 to 1990 he had 3, perhaps 4 average performances with napoli shirt..... and when i say average i mean average in a messi-eque way, if u know what i mean (being tackled and losing the ball twice in the same match.... that was an average performance for maradona).

so, just like messi, maradona was insanely good every given sunday..... the big difference is maradona was on "God-mode" only during his peak. certainly he had a pretty long-lasting peak (1986-1991) but before that, he was just a very talented player. ask any barça fan about maradona's time at nou camp and they'll tell u he was clearely a very talented player, but really nothing more than that. like any other player, maradona had a development curve, wich brought him to play at his very best only during his (very long) prime.
messi on the other side has been on a different level ever since his second season as a blaugrana first team player. he also is following a development curve (like any other player)... but on a completely different scale. his starting point was "world-class" (wich is usually the peak of great players)... now he's 24 and he's on the same insane level of maradona.... in theory his best years should be yet to come, wich is a freaking scary thought! :))
Gerd said:
But Cruijff was the most influential one. He was the one who created total football (and not Michels, don't get fooled by that myth),
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i believe it's the other way around gerd. the myth is that the real man behind totaal voetbal was crujff. crujff was a glorious football player and he certainly belongs to that same gotha maradona and messi belong.... but his coaching carreer, his understanding of the game (from a coaching point of view) and the football he imported to barçelona, to me, are a clear proof that he had absolutely nothing to do with the tactics behind total football. michels on the other side was truly a gret coach and a scholar of the game... it's unfair imo to give credit to crujff for "michels' creature".
i do realise that questioning crujff's skills as a coach in a barçelona thread is pretty much blasphemy...so i won't go further than that on this subject :P
 
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drekkard said:
if someone says Barcelona has a bad deffense its due to one of the following reasons:

1) he probably doesnt watch too much football.
2) he watches a lot of football, but doesnt understand it.

Being the team with less goals against in La Liga for 4 years now, conceding very few goals in Europe. Months without conceding at home...

The problem is all that people that still thinks in terms of past football. Barcelona plays with 11 defenders. And most of them play incredible off the ball zonal pressure in the opponent field. That places the last men in the halfline, exposed to dangerous counters.

And yet the opponents only shoot an average of 3 times per match on target. Plus, having more possession is a way of defending as well. it is 4 years since the last match that barcelona had less than 55% of possession.

Valdes is one of the best goalkeepers in 1vs1 and the best in the world playing with his feet. And thats just what barça needs. Why would I want a keeper good at crosses when the opponents hardly cross?

All in all. I would say that barça has one of the best deffenses around and the ideal goalkeeper. its only that the midfield and MEssi are so dominant that some people without the proper information would think otherwise by comparison.
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this is what i want to say that Messi and midfield dont leave much to do to defence so this makes them to look much more strong as they are ,

and about Puyol i think its great defender just its a bit old now and i guess not in his best moments

Pique ? I really would like to see him in other big team and see how strong hes , i see this guy wrong many times thats all !
 
I definitely know that the myth is the importance of Michels Ben...i don't say he wasn't a great coach (i think he was, i never said he was bad), but it was Cruijff and Kovacs (coach of Ajax) who started with total football, oh and i forgot to mention another person who had a major influence on total football, Ernst Happel, the coach of...Feyenoord. Well that's what i read in quite a few books about Dutch football, but maybe it's a myth...

That crop of Dutch players was unique. People talk about Cruijff, Neeskens and other Ajax players like Keizer and even Arie Haan. But two of the most brilliant players of that national team came from other teams: Wim Van Hanegem and Robbie Rensenbrink.

Van Hanegem was a midfield general with a fantastic pass and a great free kick and quite a character. He once had an offer of a foreign club. He could join a big club (don't remember which) together with his lieutenant Wim Janssen. Both players discussed the offer with their wives and couldn't decide if they would stay with Feyenoord or go to the other club. In the end Van Hanegem let decide his dog...(he let his dog loose and if it went left he would leave Feyenoord, the dog went right so he stayed).

The other unsung hero of the 1974 and 1978 WC played here in Belgium: Robbie Rensenbrink. He was called the snake man because of his agility and his great dribbles as a winger. He was the best player of the 1978 WC, but never became a star because he didn't bother and didn't even liked football. After his carreer he swore never to touch a ball again. There is the famous story of Rensenbrink finally going to a football match of one of his cousins. The ball went out and landed before Rensenbrink's feet...Rensenbrink looked at the ball, turned around and left. He never touched the ball and legend says he never went to a football match again...Rensenbrink loves fishing.
 
drekkard said:
if someone says Barcelona has a bad deffense its due to one of the following reasons:

1) he probably doesnt watch too much football.
2) he watches a lot of football, but doesnt understand it.

Being the team with less goals against in La Liga for 4 years now, conceding very few goals in Europe. Months without conceding at home...

The problem is all that people that still thinks in terms of past football. Barcelona plays with 11 defenders. And most of them play incredible off the ball zonal pressure in the opponent field. That places the last men in the halfline, exposed to dangerous counters.

And yet the opponents only shoot an average of 3 times per match on target. Plus, having more possession is a way of defending as well. it is 4 years since the last match that barcelona had less than 55% of possession.

Valdes is one of the best goalkeepers in 1vs1 and the best in the world playing with his feet. And thats just what barça needs. Why would I want a keeper good at crosses when the opponents hardly cross?

All in all. I would say that barça has one of the best deffenses around and the ideal goalkeeper. its only that the midfield and MEssi are so dominant that some people without the proper information would think otherwise by comparison.
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I wouldnt say it's a bad defence, but I do think defence is a weakpoint when you compare it to attack and midfield they have. I still think Valdez is not a world class goalkeeper. I think's a fairly good keeper, but he doesnt strike me as one of the worlds best. I think it's telling that Casillas and to some extent Reina have been picked ahead of him for Spain. Looking at it in the last 10-20 years if you take a goalkeeper like Buffon, Oliver Kahn or Schmeicel in their peak of their careers, they were immense goalkeepers who regularly saved their teams time after time. Buffon, Kahn and Schmeicel had no weaknesses at their peak. They could command their defences, deal with one on ones, deal with crosses and were very good at stopping set plays (free kicks and penalties).

You say that Valdes can play like a sweeper and pass the ball out to full backs etc, and you dont need him to stop crosses, but that is an interesting point. If Barca have a weakness I would say it's dealing with crosses and corners. I remember seeing Milan - Barca in the first CL game of the season and Thiago Silva had all the freedom in the world to score from a corner. A few weeks earlier Real Madrid had scored from a corner in the Nou Camp. I think it was Benzema from a Kaka corner, the corner was in the box and Barca's defenders didnt even make a cursory attempt to clear it giving Benzema a huge amount of time to finish it from very close range, he wasnt closed down at all and they allowed him far too much time and space. You can debate if the fault was down to the keeper (not marshalling his area) or the centerbacks not picking up attackers, but the impression is of a defence that is very disorganised at defending corners.


You mention that there have been "Months without conceding at home". But if you look at things since the winter break it's not actually that true of late, have Barca actually kept a clean sheet at home in 2012 ? Maybe in the Copa del Ray, but from what I remember not at home in the CL or La Liga.

It's still a great team but I think Barca need to strengthen the defence or a top class European team (say a Bayern, possibly a Milan) might be able to keep a game tight and hope to capitalise on set pieces.
 
I sort of agree with you edmundo, except that Bayern's defense is really weak...
And with the football that Barcelona plays, it logic to get goals. This has nothing to do with the quality of their individual defenders or their GK.

But IMO Pique is the best defender in the world currently (and i haven't forgotten Thiago Silva).
 
Pique is already among the very best and what this guy can become, is scary! He's still very young and FAR from his peak. Unlike Messi who I believe can't and won't get a LOT better (I mean how good can he get? He's already as good as it gets!), I think Pique still has a lot of room for improvement and he will become a guy whose name will go down in history as one of the best defenders of decade.

As for Edmundo's post, it's a very good one and I agree. Barca do look especially vulnerable through set-pieces and we know and Sir Alex and many others have said that at the HIGHEST level, the SMALLEST margins make the differences and 20-25% of goals come from setpieces.

Just look at what happened to Napoli the other night. EVERY Goal conceded was due to a corner or a cross. It's true that Barca has that weakness as Thiago Silva and Milan showed earlier and I think if you keep crossing the ball, you WILL trouble Valdes and co quite a like.

Nonetheless, I fully understand drekkard saying he'd prefer Valdes to any other keeper for this current Barca team. Because even though he has his weaknesses, the fact that he's very good on the ball just like Barca's defenders and can play as a bit of a sweeper is MORE important given their style of play and possession-keeping than being weak on crosses.

He's certainly not the perfect keeper and not worth comparing to legends like Schmeichel, Kahn and Buffon at their peak, BUT, he's a very good keeper and for Barca, he's a great choice.
 
Valdes is important for the role he plays off the pitch and I bet in the dressing room. He`s what I call thru-n-thru....that always makes a crowd please-er . Some good shouts in here.
 
Guys how did you like Tello yesterday?
Also I can't understand why Sanchez isnt used as last 30min sub, he is like a rocket..
I guess that will change when Villa returns..
 
Personally, I always liked watching Tello and he was pretty good last night too imo. Being a flamboyant winger, he maybe looks a bit more selfish than a usual La Masia product and gets a bit too excited time to time but as you know, he's only 20 and has plenty of years ahead of him to become a complete one for Barça's attacking system.
 
Enzo said:
Guys how did you like Tello yesterday?
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a few minutes after entering the pitch, he had a good shot at abbiati and took his chance. after the shot u could see messi yelling at him. i said "come on, give the kid a break! it was a good chance and he did well taking a shot"

then a friend of mine told me"no, u see messi is not scolding him, he's just trying to explain him how things work in barça. he's probably telling him.... "dude that's not how we do it here! u have to pass the ball around, INSIDE THE BOX, at least 3 times... and only then u can take your shot!"

i actually believe my friend was onto something there :P
 
You finally got a penalty at home, a dubious pen too! A very tough game barca had to fight tooth n nail for. Who was that player
Dani had a fast break running on the flanks all alone to be caught by a bilbao player. Why is fab not getting games? Keita seem to be the player taking his spot.
 
bebo said:
You finally got a penalty at home, a dubious pen too! A very tough game barca had to fight tooth n nail for. Who was that player
Dani had a fast break running on the flanks all alone to be caught by a bilbao player. Why is fab not getting games? Keita seem to be the player taking his spot.
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Finally a penalty. And to me... it wasn't!!! So, out of 10 penalties that could have been awarded to us this season, and they award us with the only one that wasn't! It seems like a bad joke!

The match had an incredible intensity. I just love Bielsa, he's the genius I would like to sit in our bench if Pep decides to leave one day. That said, we had lots of chances and should have won by a larger margin, though if Pique had not saved a sure goal in the line Bilbao could have put us nervous at the end.

Our problem continues to be that we are at 10% effectiveness in offense. Lots of times there's a pass too much. It's our cross to bear. Let's hope that's not the case tomorrow against Milan.

Bilbao players are like bulls created with Usain Bolt's DNA. There were 3 or 4 times where Messi or Alves would have 30 meters free to run and would be caught up by Iraola! That guy is pure intensity.

Lots of respect to Bilbao. They came here to play football and to put intensity. Probably the best team I've seen playing here in the whole season. Hats off for a club that should be praised always, not only now that they play so well.
Athleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetic!
 
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the player who was marking Alves should be either Aurtenetxe or Ekiza or maybe Inigo Perez. even though I think it wasn't a special man-marking, I guess it was mostly Aurtenetxe holding him. it just can't be Iraola from what I remember as he was the right back of Bilbao. anyway, whoever that guy was, he was indeed one of the few defenders made Alves look inefficient on the flank that we've seen in years.
 
drekkard said:
The match had an incredible intensity. I just love Bielsa, he's the genius I would like to sit in our bench if Pep decides to leave one day.
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yep, bielsa really is a breathe of fresh air in today's coaching. the similarities with zeman are just amazing (almost creepy). same appetite for entertaining football, same obsessive attention to details on both the athletic preparation department and the tactical department, same charismatic and fascinating persona, same taste for high tempo geometrical football (that kind of football that looks extremely simple and basic on a chalkboard, but that blows your mind on the pitch).

zdenek had something more in terms of charisma and charme (although marcelo still is one of the most intriguing personalities in today's football) and his football was little crazier, more offensive and more entertaining than bielsa (whose football is however also very offensive and entertaining), while bielsa has more tactical nous and a better match reading ability.

marcelo is like a more balanced, less crazy version of zeman. the wet dream of every football fan.
it would be very cool to hear what they think of each others. :))
 
I would also like to know what they have to say to each other!

That's the kind of journalism I would like to watch, Ben. In Spain there's a program called "Informa Robinson" which is very good and has thematic documentaries. In 2 weeks they will do one specially focused on Bielsa, his origins and the people who knows him.

It's not that difficult to produce this interesting contents, but the media produce fast-food information at planetary dimensions. What a pitty!
 
yeah, a friend of mine from sevilla also told me about informe robinson and their reportages. he also sent me some video material a few months ago (the reportaje on the olimpyc games in barçeolona, i believe), but i haven't found the time to watch it yet. :)) i'm gonna ask my friend to record that reportaje on bielsa for me. thanks for the heads up alexis ;)
anyway good luck for tonite guys.

whenever a journalist used to tell Nereo Rocco (legendary milan coach in the 60s) "may the best team win today", Nereo used to reply "sperem de no!"... wich may be roughly translated as "oh boy let's hope that won't be the case!" :P
i believe many milanisti tonite will be sharing Nereo's wish.
 
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Ben, I think some of them are available online at youtube, but sometimes split in parts. How is your spanish, by the way?

Informe Robinson has a lot of chapters, a lot. There are short stories and now and then large specials. Here, you can watch one of the shorter ones split into 2 chapters:

Chapter 1
YouTube - Informe Robinson - Derek Redmond (1/2) HQ

Chapter 2
YouTube - Informe Robinson - Derek Redmond (2/2) HQ

Just watch the first 10 minutes of the first one, and you would like to watch it all, and watch a lot more. There are about sports, not just football, and I'm sure you will find them very well done. They are top quality.

And you will also be able to watch Michael Robinson talking his "spanglish", which sounds real funny to us.
 
Man, "Informe Robinson" is such a show! I used to watch Canal+ back in time (well, did a little "trick" on my Kaon TV receiver :SHHH:) so I followed every single episode of "Informe Robinson" and "Fiebre Maldini", another superb Spanish program.
 
drekkard said:
Ben, I think some of them are available online at youtube, but sometimes split in parts. How is your spanish, by the way?
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much better than my english, that's for sure! :D
anyway buddy, thanks a lot for the link, fantastic story. and yeah there are few things more adorable than a british speaking italian or spanish... i just love to listen to them. :))

u know this show is unbelievably similar to an italian show. the format is the same, the same reportage style, the same broad selection of sport-related stories. even the short stories & big reportage thing is the same. the only main difference is that the italian show isn't hosted by a person u get to see (there's only a narrating voice-over). the show is called "sfide" and i hardly missed an episode since i got back in italy.

since you're a cyclism fan (and if you can understand the language) i believe u would love this pantani special they did a few years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ7V0l0hG18
 
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Great documentary, Ben, I understand italian very very well (sono stato in Firenze per tre estate imparando, anche ho dimenticato tutto adesso perche non ho nessuno per parlarlo. In fatto, mi sento vecchio, perche è da 20 anni che sono stato a Firenze.... )

I perfectly remember il Pirata, I was a big fan of Indurain, and when he retired, Marco was my hero. For cyclism lovers nothing can top the romantic idea of someone who looses time in the plains but wins it all climbing.

A pitty how all ended, abruptly, and how the doping began to destroy this sport. I wonder if we will ever see someone so good, so superior to the rest in the mountain. The irony of it is that after he was put out of cuclism, Armstrong went on to win all his tours, and there was no doubt Lance was, at least, as guilty of doping as Pantani. But that belongs to another thread.

thanks for the tip, I will look for others Sfide out there at youyube!
 
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