eFootball PES 2020 Demo Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox)

[slamsoze]

beggars cant be choosers, lads...

I dont think anyone is throwing a party here, celebrating break-through in computer gaming. People are just happy to see some improvements and developers looking into AI after such a clusterfuck we had this year. There is a chance that offline people will have a reasonably enjoyable Master League with Pes20, so just let them be happy..
We all know that we are at the bottom of priority pile, when it comes to football gaming and it took a long year (many years in fact) of frustration, battling Konami, tweeting, sending clips and feedbacks, in order for them to put some effort into Master League. So lets just take it and try to enjoy it.

Last night I played my Mallorca save on Pes17 and had a match against Real Madrid. Ronaldo was absolutely destroying me with his dribbling and skill moves. Every time he had a ball I was in panic mode, couldnt stop the fucker. Ended up in 3-3 thriller, best game I had all year.

Are my legs shaking when I see Messi having little solo dribble in Pes20? No. But Im definetely optimistic, hoping for some reasonably enjoyable, exciting and unpredictable matches in Pes20.
Anything they do to AI will be an improvement to what we had this year.

Edit:
AI has nothing to do with FOX engine. Pes17 is the best proof that you can get good AI, with teams and players ID. And that was 3 years ago.

I can't buy this engine or console power limitation, not even for BS. Except for 2017 you mentioned, i remember in PES 2015 PC version (last-gen), i was in ML with Leeds, promoted to EPL, and it took me 3 seasons to win a match against Chelsea. They were playing 4-2-3-1 and the 3 AMFs were Hazard-Oscar-Willian, 3 of the toughest AMFs i have face in my whole PES life. They were destroying me every game, by any dribble-trick-sprint possible or impossible, you can imagine. i waited until 5th season when they started to decline, to achieve my first draw and my first win.

So from me it is a big NO too. Engine and current platform are not the problems for sure, every PES between 2015-2017 proves it.

 

[PRO_TOO]

beggars cant be choosers, lads...

I dont think anyone is throwing a party here, celebrating break-through in computer gaming. People are just happy to see some improvements and developers looking into AI after such a clusterfuck we had this year. There is a chance that offline people will have a reasonably enjoyable Master League with Pes20, so just let them be happy..
We all know that we are at the bottom of priority pile, when it comes to football gaming and it took a long year (many years in fact) of frustration, battling Konami, tweeting, sending clips and feedbacks, in order for them to put some effort into Master League. So lets just take it and try to enjoy it.

Last night I played my Mallorca save on Pes17 and had a match against Real Madrid. Ronaldo was absolutely destroying me with his dribbling and skill moves. Every time he had a ball I was in panic mode, couldnt stop the fucker. Ended up in 3-3 thriller, best game I had all year.

Are my legs shaking when I see Messi having little solo dribble in Pes20? No. But Im definetely optimistic, hoping for some reasonably enjoyable, exciting and unpredictable matches in Pes20.
Anything they do to AI will be an improvement to what we had this year.

Edit:
AI has nothing to do with FOX engine. Pes17 is the best proof that you can get good AI, with teams and players ID. And that was 3 years ago.

 

[StriderX9]

I can't see us getting AI soon that truly replicates what their real life counterparts do, how can you truly know what's in Messi's head for instance. It does need more unpredictability though to make each game feel different and interesting, as currently the AI is quite boring.

I would like to see a new game engine though to give PES a fresh feel and to improve on the animations and visual style.

I really hope they fix the vertical option on the 360 replay cam, it has been broken since 2014.

 

[Chuny]

One thing that caught my attention just today is...
Doesn't anybody else find it weird that NOBODY ever plays as Arsenal?.
I mean, I know it's not the best team at the moment, but... if you're going to play against Barcelona, wouldn't it feel more realistic to play as Arsenal than that boring Legends team?.

 

[slamsoze]

I can't see us getting AI soon that truly replicates what their real life counterparts do, how can you truly know what's in Messi's head for instance. It does need more unpredictability though to make each game feel different and interesting, as currently the AI is quite boring.

I would like to see a new game engine though to give PES a fresh feel and to improve on the animations and visual style.

I really hope they fix the vertical option on the 360 replay cam, it has been broken since 2014.

No problem, not need of a 100% realistic AI. Just give us a better AI from a previous existing version. It exists in their archives.

 

[sonoman]

One thing that caught my attention just today is...
Doesn't anybody else find it weird that NOBODY ever plays as Arsenal?.
I mean, I know it's not the best team at the moment, but... if you're going to play against Barcelona, wouldn't it feel more realistic to play as Arsenal than that boring Legends team?.

I did see 1 Arsenal-France match, but yeah it's strange they use more the crappy legends team (they do not have defenders and have made up players in there)

 

[PRO_TOO]

One thing that caught my attention just today is...
Doesn't anybody else find it weird that NOBODY ever plays as Arsenal?.
I mean, I know it's not the best team at the moment, but... if you're going to play against Barcelona, wouldn't it feel more realistic to play as Arsenal than that boring Legends team?.

i would play the crap out of Palmeiras vs Flamengo!!

I can't see us getting AI soon that truly replicates what their real life counterparts do, how can you truly know what's in Messi's head for instance. It does need more unpredictability though to make each game feel different and interesting, as currently the AI is quite boring.

I would like to see a new game engine though to give PES a fresh feel and to improve on the animations and visual style.

I really hope they fix the vertical option on the 360 replay cam, it has been broken since 2014.

the new consoles (ps5, scarlett) might have dedicated gpu or cpu for physics (i'm not to deep into the tech but i'm very interested). i think i read something like that. and maybe there is more hardware power for AI in the future too! gfx are at a high, physics on the rise, sound and VR is next, and then there is AI left... am i forgetting something major here!?
i have hope AI in videogames will evolve in the near future! but hey... i thought so 10 years ago!

 

[piccolo_bsc]

I really like inception's analysis, it has alot of truth in it and let's me be more optimistic about the game:

 

[Chuny]

I did see 1 Arsenal-France match, but yeah it's strange they use more the crappy legends team (they do not have defenders and have made up players in there)

Yeah I saw that one, and I also thought it was strange because I would probably never put a national team up against a club. I know the options in the demo aren't a lot, but I always try to play club v.s club.

Would be nice to see how a human-controlled Arsenal would perform against an AI-controlled Barcelona, instead of an overpowered Legends team.

 

[OBH]

I agree - the standard of the game, and therefore our expectations from it, have fallen so low that people are getting now excited about some seeing fundamental aspects of football, like an AI dribble or long-shot, when these things used to be in the game 15 years ago.

PES (2019 in particular) has reduced the AI to such a basic, repetitive model across all AI players and teams that we're now to view Messi doing some sort of crude dribble as a major break-through in computer gaming?

And cut-scenes in ML mode is a massive overhaul of ML?

Yeah right.

Funny because I think our expectations have gotten so high it's absurd. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hoping for more, but we put every tiny detail under the microscope and expect everything to be perfect.

I disagree as well. AI is probably the most neglected portion of this games gen. And if the general focus doesn't change for first, I don't see things improving just because they pick up a new engine.

AI is by far the most difficult thing to do in a football game. Yes, I know AI has been in video games since the 1950's or something crazy like that, but I swear people don't understand the lofty heights that they are expecting.

If you design an AI, you design it to do it perfectly. AI's designed to play Chess, Go, or for any other purpose for that matter, are designed to do it flawlessly. That's the point of them. We, however, don't want an AI like that, we want something even MORE complicated. We expect Konami to design an AI where every decision ISN'T perfect, because doing it perfectly would be far easier! We expect the AI to play all the different brands of football for each team in a mirror image of their real counterparts, AND retain individuality between players, AND still simulate human errors, AND to do all this without ever once feel like we're playing against a machine!??? Name me another genre that has such high demands of it's AI? I play a lot of RTS games and even their AI, one you'd assume is designed in a complicated manner, is still incredibly basic and easy to predict.

They're only just bringing AI into the ACTUAL sport since early last year, and yet we expect PES' to be perfect??

We are talking about Konami here, not Google's DeepMind AI.

 

[PRO_TOO]

Funny because I think our expectations have gotten so high it's absurd. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hoping for more, but we put every tiny detail under the microscope and expect everything to be perfect.



AI is by far the most difficult thing to do in a football game. Yes, I know AI has been in video games since the 1950's or something crazy like that, but I swear people don't understand the lofty heights that they are expecting.

If you design an AI, you design it to do it perfectly. AI's designed to play Chess, or Go, or any other perpose for that matter, and designed to do it flawlessly. That's the point of them. We, however, don't want an AI like that, we want something even MORE complicated. We expect Konami to design an AI where every decision has to be perfect. And by perfect I don't mean that it never makes mistakes, because that's the easy bit! We expect the AI to play all the different brands of football for each team in a mirror image of their real counterparts, AND retain individuality between players, AND still simulate human errors, AND to do all this without ever once feel like we're playing against a machine!??? Name me another genre that has such high demands of it's AI? I play a lot of RTS games and ever their AI, one you'd assume is designed in a complicated manner, is still incredibly basic and easy to predict.

They're only just bringing AI into the ACTUAL sport since early last year, and yet we expect PES' to be perfect??

We are talking about Konami here, not Google's DeepMind AI.

while we are at it, here is a nice little article regarding AI and videogames (just stumbled over this):

HOW ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WILL REVOLUTIONIZE THE WAY VIDEO GAMES ARE DEVELOPED AND PLAYED

If you asked video game fans what an idealized, not-yet-possible piece of interactive entertainment might look like in 10 or even 20 years from now, they might describe something eerily similar to the software featured in Orson Scott Card’s sci-fi classic Ender’s Game. In his novel, Card imagined a military-grade simulation anchored by an advanced, inscrutable artificial intelligence.
...

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/6/18222203/video-game-ai-future-procedural-generation-deep-learning

edit: haven't read the full article by now, but will do on my lunch break.

 

[Madmac79]

AI is by far the most difficult thing to do in a football game. Yes, I know AI has been in video games since the 1950's or something crazy like that, but I swear people don't understand the lofty heights that they are expecting.

If you design an AI, you design it to do it perfectly. AI's designed to play Chess, Go, or for any other purpose for that matter, are designed to do it flawlessly. That's the point of them. We, however, don't want an AI like that, we want something even MORE complicated. We expect Konami to design an AI where every decision ISN'T perfect, because doing it perfectly would be far easier! We expect the AI to play all the different brands of football for each team in a mirror image of their real counterparts, AND retain individuality between players, AND still simulate human errors, AND to do all this without ever once feel like we're playing against a machine!??? Name me another genre that has such high demands of it's AI? I play a lot of RTS games and even their AI, one you'd assume is designed in a complicated manner, is still incredibly basic and easy to predict.

They're only just bringing AI into the ACTUAL sport since early last year, and yet we expect PES' to be perfect??

We are talking about Konami here, not Google's DeepMind AI.

That's kind of a strawman, sorry. Nobody asked for the perfect AI you are talking here.

There is an between from the hypothetically perfect characterization of everything (which, I repeat, nobody asked) and CPU players that couldn't even act like their most simple traits as it was last year.

Konami should know since they were already capable of doing so.

 

[Emroth]

AI is by far the most difficult thing to do in a football game. Yes, I know AI has been in video games since the 1950's or something crazy like that, but I swear people don't understand the lofty heights that they are expecting.

If you design an AI, you design it to do it perfectly. AI's designed to play Chess, Go, or for any other purpose for that matter, are designed to do it flawlessly. That's the point of them. We, however, don't want an AI like that, we want something even MORE complicated. We expect Konami to design an AI where every decision ISN'T perfect, because doing it perfectly would be far easier! We expect the AI to play all the different brands of football for each team in a mirror image of their real counterparts, AND retain individuality between players, AND still simulate human errors, AND to do all this without ever once feel like we're playing against a machine!??? Name me another genre that has such high demands of it's AI? I play a lot of RTS games and even their AI, one you'd assume is designed in a complicated manner, is still incredibly basic and easy to predict.

They're only just bringing AI into the ACTUAL sport since early last year, and yet we expect PES' to be perfect??

We are talking about Konami here, not Google's DeepMind AI.

Your whole theory falls apart with two words - Pes 17.

I dont expect miracles, i would like to have AI at least on the same level that they already had 3 years ago.

Id like star players to stand out, COM surprising me with a skill move to go by, or a shot from distance. Lower teams to play more defensive, better teams to be more dangerous, matches to be unpredictable and not just based on AI momentum to achieve artificial sense of challenge.

Add to it physicality, more shot variety... and maybe a penalty once per season...?

Can we just have the level of Pes17, please?
Are we asking for too much?

 

[Schwarzenbeck]

The technical hurdles of AI will be overcome sooner or later. Already Google can have a bot call a restaurant and order a table and the person receiving the call will not for one second think, that they are not speaking with a human. They will not think of that because the voice at the other end uses inflections, pauses and ‘ahs’ and ‘uhms’ - imperfections which render it “human”.

I think it will take the programmers at Konami a long time until they make that leap, that imperfection actually humanizes things, makes us more prone to connect and engage. It’s not so much a technical problem as it is a cultural one.

 

[OBH]

There is an between from the hypothetically perfect characterization of everything (which, I repeat, nobody asked) and CPU players that couldn't even act like their most simple traits as it was last year.

Are you sure about that?
Go back just one page and you’ll see people unhappy that Messi didn’t cut inside when he would have done so in real life. What’s that if not wanting characterisation?

Don’t get me wrong though, this is Messi we’re talking about. It’s perfectly understandable to expect that, you know, one of the best players to have ever lived to be as accurate a representation as possible. But is this expected of every player?

@Emroth
Currently trying to fish out PES 2017 and dust the cobwebs off my Xbox. I don’t remember the AI specifically from that game, but I’m definitely interested in finding out.

@Rodchenko
That google video calling the restaurant is mad. But have you seen the computing power they have for this stuff? Fills a small building. A bit more powerful than a little console under your tv

 

[Madmac79]

Are you sure about that?

I'll tell you what I'm sure. I'm sure users have every right to objectively ask for a better (not perfect) AI than the generic mess of the last year, yes. Absolutely.

If you want to discuss the single opinions of the others I'm afraid you'll have to do it with them. I'm not particularly interested in defending positions I'm not holding.

 

[Danny Henry]

AI is by far the most difficult thing to do in a football game. Yes, I know AI has been in video games since the 1950's or something crazy like that, but I swear people don't understand the lofty heights that they are expecting.

If you design an AI, you design it to do it perfectly. AI's designed to play Chess, Go, or for any other purpose for that matter, are designed to do it flawlessly. That's the point of them. We, however, don't want an AI like that, we want something even MORE complicated. We expect Konami to design an AI where every decision ISN'T perfect, because doing it perfectly would be far easier! We expect the AI to play all the different brands of football for each team in a mirror image of their real counterparts, AND retain individuality between players, AND still simulate human errors, AND to do all this without ever once feel like we're playing against a machine!??? Name me another genre that has such high demands of it's AI? I play a lot of RTS games and even their AI, one you'd assume is designed in a complicated manner, is still incredibly basic and easy to predict.

I was thinking the same thing about this. Thats why the stats must be more prominent. CPU has to play by the same rules as a human player. Im always saying this. They dont have to reinvent the wheel, they dont have to make Dani Alves to play exactly as Dani Alves or Ronaldo as himself. Just make the AI play by the stats the player it is controlling.

However, since we are talking about Konami, we have to remember that every SB player tries to make an early cross, every attacker tries a dribble and every player tries a long range shot, occasionally. The stats would only determine the frequency and accurancy that plays happend.

High skilled, would dribble MORE.
Good shooter, would shot MORE from long range.
Etc etc.

 

[banbenbin]

I was thinking the same thing about this. Thats why the stats must be more prominent. CPU has to play by the same rules as a human player. Im always saying this. They dont have to reinvent the wheel, they dont have to make Dani Alves to play exactly as Dani Alves or Ronaldo as himself. Just make the AI play by the stats the player it is controlling.

However, since we are talking about Konami, we have to remember that every SB player tries to make an early cross, every attacker tries a dribble and every player tries a long range shot, occasionally. The stats would only determine the frequency and accurancy that plays happend.

High skilled, would dribble MORE.
Good shooter, would shot MORE from long range.
Etc etc.

I disagree with this. Although not super common, there are plenty of players who are bad at particular thing but try them anyways or who are good at something, but don't do it as much. That is why there has to be an attribute for how good they are at a certain part of their game, and then there have to be attributes on how those players employ those skills, mental stats, that will mainly only apply to how the AI use them, because those mental stats become less relevant when the user has control. Although, they can be reflected in certain ways. Like if you press with Ozil late in a game, the animation can be lazy and slow.

 

[OBH]

I disagree with this. Although not super common, there are plenty of players who are bad at particular thing but try them anyways or who are good at something, but don't do it as much. That is why there has to be an attribute for how good they are at a certain part of their game, and then there have to be attributes on how those players employ those skills, mental stats, that will mainly only apply to how the AI use them, because those mental stats become less relevant when the user has control. Although, they can be reflected in certain ways. Like if you press with Ozil late in a game, the animation can be lazy and slow.

This is totally true, but @banbenbin sound's like he's talking about a player's general behavior. You don't have to limit them completely but, as an example, I'm sure you wouldn't have disagreed if the AI was given a 0.000001% chance of attempting to do a roulette spin past an attacker or an overhead kick while it was controlling Per Mertarsacker?

In fact the skills in general could definitely be changed to make players more individual. Every single player can attempt a large majority of the basic skills, but the animation changes if they have that particular skill trait, and the animation speed changes dependant on their stats. I'm pretty sure these 62 rated center-backs you can do Ronaldo chops with have never attempted one in their lives!

We remember PES 5/6 so fondly, and my god, the stats were incredibly prominent then. Controlling Philippe Senderos was like controlling a bus on an ice rink. Even the worst players in the game now are easier to control that he was.

 

[Danny Henry]

This is totally true, but @banbenbin sound's like he's talking about a player's general behavior. You don't have to limit them completely but, as an example, I'm sure you wouldn't have disagreed if the AI was given a 0.000001% chance of attempting to do a roulette spin past an attacker or an overhead kick while it was controlling Per Mertarsacker?

In fact the skills in general could definitely be changed to ma

Exactly. I forgot to mention the arrows form. It should modify the AI behavor too.

 

[Bond!JamesBond!]

I was thinking the same thing about this. Thats why the stats must be more prominent. CPU has to play by the same rules as a human player. Im always saying this. They dont have to reinvent the wheel, they dont have to make Dani Alves to play exactly as Dani Alves or Ronaldo as himself. Just make the AI play by the stats the player it is controlling.

However, since we are talking about Konami, we have to remember that every SB player tries to make an early cross, every attacker tries a dribble and every player tries a long range shot, occasionally. The stats would only determine the frequency and accurancy that plays happend.

High skilled, would dribble MORE.
Good shooter, would shot MORE from long range.
Etc etc.

biggest mistake they made writing code to override stats. Player stats shouldn't be secondary to difficulty level, or some shit scripting to make it harder. Passing, shooting, crossing should be driving by player stats only. When was the last year PES had strong player stats or no code that makes stats seem secondary.

 

[Emroth]

@Emroth
Currently trying to fish out PES 2017 and dust the cobwebs off my Xbox. I don’t remember the AI specifically from that game, but I’m definitely interested in finding out

Please do. I missed that one and only got it few months ago, after talking to people here. Since then Im finally enjoying football game again.
It has some flaws, but good thinks outweigh bad in so many areas.
Graphics aged a bit, ball physics is noticeably worse (takes few games to get used to it) when you come to play it from Pes19, but AI is very very solid. Not perfect, but solid and (most important) unpredictable. And thats all I want.
In Pes19 I feel like I know every single thing that AI is planning to do next. I know, yet I cant prevent it sometimes, which makes it even worse.

I do agree that its not easy to mirror all player ID's. There are hundreds of players who stand out in their teams. The simplest way to achieve it would be to use those player skills and personality traits more. And make them equally important to team tactics.

If a guy is a dribbler - let him dribble.
If he has long shots - let him shoot.
All players should do it, if opportunity arrives, but players with traits should look for these opportunities more.
Player ID's will eventualy create team ID..

I really like this "inspire" idea. That can not only affect player itself, but also his team mates. If all the little things fall into place - it really has potential to play well.

 

[espimas]

I disagree. The Ai has been dialed back deliberately to encourage gamers to go online. I don't believe for a moment that the fox engine has reached It's limit with regards to ai. The Devs just don't want to put much effort into offline Ai.

This

 

[Schwarzenbeck]

@Rodchenko
That google video calling the restaurant is mad. But have you seen the computing power they have for this stuff? Fills a small building. A bit more powerful than a little console under your tv

Massive outsourcing of the required processing power to powerful server farms and streaming the results to our devices is just around the corner. It’s already happening.

 

[Chuny]

I'm 100% sure that Konami could take the AI to a next level if they wanted to.
Problem is, they should probably start from scratch.

Konami seems to patch things up game after game adding more traits, new abilities or stats... a patch to patch the patch.
The game is probably a big chunk of code in which they've been carrying over dirty code since PES 2014.

And, here's the key for me: Even though a new engine wouldn't affect animations or gameplay in the way most people seem to think (because most people are confused about what gaming engines do) it would probably force them to start over, this means: cleaner code, cleaner instructions, better performance, etc.

I am sure about that. And we will see it whenever the new engine is implemented. I am sure that, the way things are going, with the path Konami is taking, a new Engine will set things right from the beginning. Undo all the wrongs and start fresh.

None of what I said above is actual information. It's just what I perceive and think based on what I know about games development, Konami, etc.

 

[Chuny]

I really like this "inspire" idea. That can not only affect player itself, but also his team mates. If all the little things fall into place - it really has potential to play well.

I don't like it.
From what I've heard and seen about it, all it does is it triggers teammate runs to create space and through-ball opportunities. So if you have a team like Barcelona, which seems to have many players with that "inspire" trait, you will see constant runs are being made by your players when you reach a certain zone on the pitch. I bet that Messi, Rakitic, Arthur and now Frenkie De Jong probably have that trait. So, from my point of view, instead of your teammates' AI being smart enough to detect when to run into space to either drag a defender out of place or to give the player in possession of the ball a clear passing opportunity, you'll now depend a lot more on this new trait or card or whatever they call it.

I might be wrong and it could play out totally different to what I pictured in my mind, so we will see.

 

[Chuny]

One thing I did like about PES 2020 is this:
If there's a lot more of this type of battles in the midfield in every match, I'll be very happy.




And the new ball is probably the best I've seen in a football game.

So, somehow this guy seems to have been sent PES 2020 demo from E3..

 

[Chuny]

Yeah


Yeah, i also noticed that. Also i noticed (even in pes19) whenever a player cuts inside, there's a slight slowdown which inturn makes the defender catch up. Looks like they haven't fixed that.

Can someone please post a gif of that Messi's header. It was brilliant.

 

[OBH]

Have to say that I don’t think cutting inside and slowing down is ‘a bug that needs fixing’ in the slightest. Mainly because it’s situational.

One thing we can certainly agree on though is that both the headers in that gif are class.

 

[Chuny]

What game was it that we got two demos in order to give feedback before the final code?. Was it PES 2013?.
Not talking about PES 2014 "leaked" demo.

That was a great idea in my opinion.