Arsenal Thread

Explained in more detail your points make sense, and I agree I guess on most of them. Except the Parker point, I still reckon he's a great player a what he does.
 
Rentboy said:
Defending is of course crucial and as important as attacking flare (although the attacking side of the game steals the headlines). And in that England has a solid unit, players like Lescott, Cahill (now he's out sadly) and Cashley Cole are top defenders. But if you look upfront, this team will always struggle to score. Rooney is the only one who's truly gifted and ready for the big stage (Ox and Welbeck are very promising but they're still lightweight).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your attacking players are burdened with this culture of defensive duties. England loves industry, and this is expected from all 11 players even the centre forward. I mean, you cannot have the best of both worlds, this is very difficult to find.
My example of Scott Parker is how I illustrate this culture of praising the effort (which is only fair) but to overlook another quite important element in the game: what else does that player bring to the team?
Stamina and blocks and tackles alone are not enough I think. In modern football if you're a holding midfielder you have to check all these boxes and offer more.
To be honest, I don't even think Parker is that great at what he does. Many will point out to the fact that the diving tackles and blocks he does are due to poor positioning in the first place. I started noticing this and found myself agreeing. He finishes the match all covered in mud from sliding on the ground :LOL: but you see other players that are at least equally effective who don't need to dive in front of the ball all the time, because they got their positioning sorted.
Modern football demands players in that position to bring something else to the game, look at Yaya Toure's offensive contributions, look at Alex Song's assists.
To me that's ok, he's ok, I don't have anything personal against Parker. But I just can't understand the hype around him. And there lies the contrast that puzzles me: an average at best player gets lots of praise and a talented foreign attacker who's been played out of position gets all that stick from media pundits and fans. His own fans!

But going back to the English players: the hype and attention they get, the price tags on them (and salaries) has got them in a comfort zone. Some guys in this England squad think they're untouchable, but they wouldn't make the cut on many European 23-men selections.
Talent is out there, I think England can improve a lot in the future, but the mentality being so focused on defense makes it difficult for the emerging talents to turn into strikers full of offensive flair. The attacking talent has not been nurtured in the right way IMO.
The booing of players like Arshavin by his own fans comes to show that the average fan cannot acknowledge that in football there must be space for specialists, guys who are extremely good in one thing (creating) and very poor in another (defending). Arshavin as a no.10 playmaker receives top marks IMO. Special talent requires a bit of freedom.
So under these circumstances and the way the game is played in England, culturally, English players are developed to be all round players, but most end up being flat, not excelling in anything in particular. That's the way I see this England team for years now. It's flat. Look at that midfield, there's not enough creativity and guys who are only suited to play a straight line of 4.
With more foreign stars in the Prem, one would think this approach would change, they would be more influenced by continental style, but this is not happening. This right now is one of England's most boring sides ever :(
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All of your points are good, apart from the Arshavin one where you put his failure at Arsenal down to him just being played out of position (But we have had this argument many times, so I won't bring it up again :)) ). I also think Parker is better than you suggest aswell.

EDIT: It would also be good to see the formations when Arshavin had his best games for us? and see where he was playing then? Is there a site where you can see things like that, from a few years back?

The formation that Russia was playing the other day, seems similar to where he was playing for Arsenal?
 
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Well he played on the left but was drifting all over the place rather than sticking to the touchline like at Arsenal.

Or at least, it appeared that way to me.
 
Wenger plays everybody out of position and the thing is only RVP gained, from it !! there`s a possibility that he might leave too. So, we could make a list of players playing out of position ,but the funniest one is Bendtner on the wings :LOL: Wenger must of been taking the piss on that.

Parker is pants I agree w/ Rent although he was peaking at Newsc and Chelsea didn`t help he would of been very good if he and Lampard would of partner longer imo.
 
About Parker: he is a much better player than you people think. In fact Arsenal could do with a player like Parker. With that type of player they would be title contenders, i'm quite sure of that.

About Arshavin: i simply think he was home sick. It seems most Russian players fail in foreign competitions. A couple of examples:

Arshavin with Arsenal and before that in France (he was in France before shining the first time with Zenith).
Kerzhakov with Sevilla: he failed.
Pavelyuchenko with Spurs: he sort of failed (but Harry never gave him a fair chance IMO).
The Russian player who was with Everton (can't remember his name): a very good player in Russia, but never settled with Everton.
Progrebnyak is doing well with Fullham, but before that he had mixed seasons in Germany.

Of course their are Russian players who do well abroad (i was thinking about a player who used to play in Spain for Real Sociedad, i think it was Karpin, he did reasonably well), but not much.

I think Arshavin has everything to be one of the best players in the world, but i'm beginning to suspect he will only deliver in Russia.
 
Now Bendtner I can definately agree with, him being played on the wing was not a good idea...although his crossing really improved :))
 
BobbyBox said:
All of your points are good, apart from the Arshavin one where you put his failure at Arsenal down to him just being played out of position (But we have had this argument many times, so I won't bring it up again :)) ). I also think Parker is better than you suggest aswell.

EDIT: It would also be good to see the formations when Arshavin had his best games for us? and see where he was playing then? Is there a site where you can see things like that, from a few years back?

The formation that Russia was playing the other day, seems similar to where he was playing for Arsenal?
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Not to get too much in detail, because we've discussed this, but Arshavin managed to deliver some brilliant performances in his first 2 seasons, but let's face it: the guy is ageing. Not fair to compare 2009 and 2012 when he has just crossed past the 30 year old barrier.
At Zenit, he was 2nd striker, drifting behind and joining the midfielders in creation, a bit like the Bergkamp role. And for me that's the way to play him. He has a superb through ball in his repertoire (he fed RvP like this quite a few times this past season).
With Russia he played with freedom. I don't think that formation was a 4-3-3. It was free-flowing football and Arshavin was the center of the team.
But I know we would never see Arsenal with a formation revolving around Arshavin. He's a bit of a luxury player like some say, and that's it.
The 4-3-3 played at Arsenal is something I can't stand anymore. It's boring, rigid and predictable. Guys like Walcott and especially Gervinho can't hurt the opposition, except when we're leading - then they cause damage with more open spaces. But in other situations, opponents know exactly what to do to neutralize us.

But going back to Arshavin, I agree with the element of home sickness, it definitely contributes a lot to his form.

Still, the Russian showed what he's capable when played in the right position. On the other hand the player we did keep at Arsenal, Rosicky, didn't look good at all. Let's hope he can keep his good form at least with Arsenal.

About Parker, I started watching his performances more attentively after all the hype, and maybe that's why I'm so underwhelmed. I'm still waiting to see the great player the media raves about.
...would be typical if he scored a brace today against France today!! :LOL:
 
Rentboy said:
Not to get too much in detail, because we've discussed this, but Arshavin managed to deliver some brilliant performances in his first 2 seasons, but let's face it: the guy is ageing. Not fair to compare 2009 and 2012 when he has just crossed past the 30 year old barrier.
At Zenit, he was 2nd striker, drifting behind and joining the midfielders in creation, a bit like the Bergkamp role. And for me that's the way to play him. He has a superb through ball in his repertoire (he fed RvP like this quite a few times this past season).
With Russia he played with freedom. I don't think that formation was a 4-3-3. It was free-flowing football and Arshavin was the center of the team.
But I know we would never see Arsenal with a formation revolving around Arshavin. He's a bit of a luxury player like some say, and that's it.
The 4-3-3 played at Arsenal is something I can't stand anymore. It's boring, rigid and predictable. Guys like Walcott and especially Gervinho can't hurt the opposition, except when we're leading - then they cause damage with more open spaces. But in other situations, opponents know exactly what to do to neutralize us.

But going back to Arshavin, I agree with the element of home sickness, it definitely contributes a lot to his form.

Still, the Russian showed what he's capable when played in the right position. On the other hand the player we did keep at Arsenal, Rosicky, didn't look good at all. Let's hope he can keep his good form at least with Arsenal.

About Parker, I started watching his performances more attentively after all the hype, and maybe that's why I'm so underwhelmed. I'm still waiting to see the great player the media raves about.
...would be typical if he scored a brace today against France today!! :LOL:
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I am sure we could have utilised Arshavin better, but I really don't think it was the main reason he didn't succeed (Which I think that is what you are implying?)

You mention that you can't compare 2009 Arshavin to now, that is one reason, he is getting older. His desire for the game has been questionable at times aswell.

I think if you can find where Arshavin played his best games for Arsenal (The formations and line ups) then he was probably in similar positions? (If not the same?) than he was at the end of his time at Arsenal.

So he proved he could play there and very well, but was very inconsistant. You say he had some great games in the first two years but they were very few and far between.

I heard he played well in Russia on loan (Not fantastic) and in the other International game the other day, but are they of similar opposition as we have in the premier league?

I think it is fine to say we could maybe have tried to use him differently this last year, but I don't think it is fair to say we played him in a wrong position for him and that is the main reason he has left and didn't live upto his potential at Arsenal.
 
BobbyBox said:
I am sure we could have utilised Arshavin better, but I really don't think it was the main reason he didn't succeed (Which I think that is what you are implying?)

You mention that you can't compare 2009 Arshavin to now, that is one reason, he is getting older. His desire for the game has been questionable at times aswell.

I think if you can find where Arshavin played his best games for Arsenal (The formations and line ups) then he was probably in similar positions? (If not the same?) than he was at the end of his time at Arsenal.

So he proved he could play there and very well, but was very inconsistant. You say he had some great games in the first two years but they were very few and far between.

I heard he played well in Russia on loan (Not fantastic) and in the other International game the other day, but are they of similar opposition as we have in the premier league?

I think it is fine to say we could maybe have tried to use him differently this last year, but I don't think it is fair to say we played him in a wrong position for him and that is the main reason he has left and didn't live upto his potential at Arsenal.
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Yes I was suggesting that he was not well utilized at Arsenal and, although not the only reason, I think this was the main one.
But I won't single out Arshavin and will go as far as saying that our dull 4-3-3 doesn't do any wonders for Walcott and Gervinho either, whilst making a mockery of Bendtner on the wings :LOL: and completely obliterating Chamakh's career at the club for lack of chances.
Correct me if I'm wrong but we didn't have a single game this season where AW tried a 4-4-2? Never even adapted to face stronger opponents in dire circumstances: again, the example of that mauling at Old Trafford, where we had players departed and injured and Wenger still played his offensive formation with the likes of Coq and Jenkinson in the squad (and we got what was coming our way)
 
Arshavin never played in France Gerd but you're spot on about everything else. Especially with him being home sick and wanting to play in his beloved Zenit in Russia. Many Russian players have this problem and considering their league is already among best in Europe now and only growing stronger, it won't be a problem for long as Russian players will select to play for home country clubs.

Kerzhakov was home sick and never made the grade in Sevilla either.
 
I recently heard from a football pundit that he played a short while in France (the man thougth it was for Auxerre, but he wasn't sure about that). I took that over without being sure it ever happened.
 
Yeah he was mistaken. Arshaving played for his beloved Zenit his whole career from like turn of century to like 2009 or so when Arsenal bought him. So he's not only a home sick player but also a 1 team player and wouldn't do as good a job in other Russian clubs either.
 
Kerzahakov had an unusual bad match (and then only concerning his finishing). He is doing very well with Zenith.

Another Russian player who is more or less underachieving abroad is Izamilov (Sporting Club de Lisboa?).
 
Yes Izmailov plays in Sporting Lisbon. He's not even a starter for Russia. That kid Dzagoev is really making his name, today he scored his 3rd goal.
This today was not as impressive from Russia and Arshavin faded out in the 2nd half, but still played reasonably well. He delivered the great cross from which Dzagoev scored.

As for this whole discussion about Arshavin's positioning at Arsenal, I rather say no more and instead I will let Arseblog say it better:
http://news.arseblog.com/2012/06/arsenal-at-the-euros-by-the-numbers/
 
Rentboy said:
As for this whole discussion about Arshavin's positioning at Arsenal, I rather say no more and instead I will let Arseblog say it better:
http://news.arseblog.com/2012/06/arsenal-at-the-euros-by-the-numbers/
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Still doesn't say too much, he is playing for his nation at a major competition, so there can be many other factors why he is playing well.

One of the big things as to why I think he didn't live upto expectations at Arsenal was his lack of motivation, he has it in abundance now.

Judging by the heat map he spends most time on the left hand side of the field and cuts in from the left? like he did at Arsenal? he is put on the left hand side of the formation...like at Arsenal. It does seem like he gets more freedom, I give you that, but I still don't think we would have got that much more out of him, if he got a similar role at Arsenal.
 
Motivation is a BIG thing with any player and ESPECIALLY with those of the attitude/personality of someone like Arshavin!

Is Andriy as motivated playing for Arsenal compared to Russia or his beloved Zenit? Nope. Only a few times! Bobby has a point about that.

But yes, overall he's been unfairly criticized at times by English media and fans and they haven't played him to his potential and that's not only on him to blame but for Wenger, media and fans too.

As usual, there isn't one culprit but many who have played a role in his underachievement.
 
PLF said:
Motivation is a BIG thing with any player and ESPECIALLY with those of the attitude/personality of someone like Arshavin!

Is Andriy as motivated playing for Arsenal compared to Russia or his beloved Zenit? Nope. Only a few times! Bobby has a point about that.

But yes, overall he's been unfairly criticized at times by English media and fans and they haven't played him to his potential and that's not only on him to blame but for Wenger, media and fans too.

As usual, there isn't one culprit but many who have played a role in his underachievement.
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Definately there are many reasons why he was not successful at Arsenal, the only thing I had a problem was with how 'he was played out of position' was given as the main reason and that just isn't right imo :-)

Here is another qoute by Arseblog Rentboy

"Poland v Russia was a good game though, perhaps the best one in the tournament thus far, and we saw Andrei Arshavin looking lively and threatening, which provokes wistful thoughts in Arsenal fans. ‘Why can’t he play like this for us?’, I saw people ask. And then you get to the second half and he’s puffing and blowing like a 60 a day smoker and that’s pretty much the reason why he can’t play like that for us.

He is, and has been for some time, criminally unfit for a professional football player. I remember one of the first games he played for us and he took his shirt off after the game. Not since the days of Jan Molby has a player sported a finer pair of love handles and he was never bothered to get fit enough to produce on a consistent basis. Perhaps he was indulged at Zenit because he was who he was, but maybe he was indulged at Arsenal too long. He’s a fantastic character and a very likeable person, but the laziness was apparent from the start and we never got on top of that."
 
BobbyBox said:
Definately there are many reasons why he was not successful at Arsenal, the only thing I had a problem was with how 'he was played out of position' was given as the main reason and that just isn't right imo :-)

Here is another qoute by Arseblog Rentboy

"Poland v Russia was a good game though, perhaps the best one in the tournament thus far, and we saw Andrei Arshavin looking lively and threatening, which provokes wistful thoughts in Arsenal fans. ‘Why can’t he play like this for us?’, I saw people ask. And then you get to the second half and he’s puffing and blowing like a 60 a day smoker and that’s pretty much the reason why he can’t play like that for us.

He is, and has been for some time, criminally unfit for a professional football player. I remember one of the first games he played for us and he took his shirt off after the game. Not since the days of Jan Molby has a player sported a finer pair of love handles and he was never bothered to get fit enough to produce on a consistent basis. Perhaps he was indulged at Zenit because he was who he was, but maybe he was indulged at Arsenal too long. He’s a fantastic character and a very likeable person, but the laziness was apparent from the start and we never got on top of that."
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Yeah, I saw that. Arshavin indeed looked completely wasted in the 2nd half against Poland. And there was an occasion where he did that terrible thing he does, laying down on the turf for 5 or 6 seconds after trying a half hearted sliding tackle.
I won't go into detail about his fitness, it's pointless. Tevez is a bit chubby himself but he runs like a beast.
Arshavin is not a self-motivated player, that's a big problem. He works well with this Russian side, but with Arsenal he absorbs the general atmosphere instead of lifting it. He is a game changer, but this is down to his abilities. As a character, he doesn't instill any sort of fighting spirit in the team. And in Arsenal this is so bad because we have too many passengers in that squad, as I said it before here. Arsh is the kind of guy who becomes resigned too easily. Many will say he 's a mood player, if you prefer.

I stand by what I said before. He's played out of position. He was a second striker at Zenit. Bergkamp role in the 4-4-2. At Arsenal Arsene sticks him to the left and there he stays, occasionally switching to the right with the other winger. Damn predictable stuff.
Russia has a different system to Arsenal. He plays on the left, but he's a free roaming playmaker in essence. He doesn't have defensive obligations as in Arsenal. Have you seen how Russia's holding midfielders cover? Zhirkov is not that great a left back at defending, but still leaves less spaces than Clichy/Gibbs/Santos.
Russia has been showing free flowing football with some defense players bombing forward, but they don't allow too many spaces at the back. And they will bust a gut to go back to defend when needed. In Arsenal we're tired of seeing Ramseys, Denilsons and Diabys not doing that, everybody wants to attack, but just come back jogging. it's kamikaze!
I think this Russia side is not so unbalanced as Arsenal, so Arshavin gets away with being only an offensive player, a "luxury" player.

For all his faults, I still think he's often unfairly massacred by media and fans. There are many midfielders at Arsenal who aren't pulling their weight defensively. Arshavin will depart and these problems will remain, and someone else will be the scapegoat. You heard it here first :D

Speaking of which, Arsh doing well and Nick Bendtner scoring a brace today against Portugal...
They're in the shopping window! Yay!
Let's see if Arsenal can get decent money to buy more 6ft5 Centre Forwards only for Wenger to play them on the Right wing ;)
 
Rentboy said:
I stand by what I said before. He's played out of position. He was a second striker at Zenit. Bergkamp role in the 4-4-2. At Arsenal Arsene sticks him to the left and there he stays, occasionally switching to the right with the other winger. Damn predictable stuff.
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He definately has a "free role" at Russia and did at Zenit before moving to London. By this I mean he's given licence to attack as much as he wants, principally to look forward, and is not given any defensive duty. He's doesnt have this at Arsenal, where the fans expect him to defend and tackle, and if he is playing on the left he should nullify the threat from the opposition's right winger.

He also has been playing with more suitable strikers at Zenit and the Russian national team. Pogrebnyak (at Zenit in his first spell) and Pogrebnyak just before Euro 2008 and Pavyluchenko after he got injured. Both of these players are particularly great at getting on the end of crosses (either high balls with their heads, or short ground level cut backs) and both linked up well with Arshavin and were maybe more suited to him than maybe Van Persie (who can tend to create goals for himself).


In Arsenal we're tired of seeing Ramseys, Denilsons and Diabys not doing that, everybody wants to attack, but just come back jogging. it's kamikaze!
I think this Russia side is not so unbalanced as Arsenal, so Arshavin gets away with being only an offensive player, a "luxury" player..
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That's a very good point, both Denisov and Zyrianov played for Russia and Zenit at the time when Arshavin shone in those teams. I Dont think Arsenal have defensive midfielders as organised as those players, Zyrainov's best years are behind him now, but Denisov is very good at breaking up posession and short passing, he's a ball winner Arsenal only really have Alex Song in this role.

For all his faults, I still think he's often unfairly massacred by media and fans. There are many midfielders at Arsenal who aren't pulling their weight defensively. Arshavin will depart and these problems will remain, and someone else will be the scapegoat.
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Yes of this there can be no doubt, just like the defence wasn't magic once Éboué (booing favourite of 2009-10) left.
 
cfdh_edmundo said:
That's a very good point, both Denisov and Zyrianov played for Russia and Zenit at the time when Arshavin shone in those teams. I Dont think Arsenal have defensive midfielders as organised as those players, Zyrainov's best years are behind him now, but Denisov is very good at breaking up posession and short passing, he's a ball winner Arsenal only really have Alex Song in this role.



Yes of this there can be no doubt, just like the defence wasn't magic once Éboué (booing favourite of 2009-10) left.
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Arsenal's formation and players are too offense oriented, hence creating a great unbalance. I think we could use some proper enforcers in this midfield - even Song venture too much forward for my liking. I'd promote Song for a more advanced role because he provides lots of assists, along with Arteta, and I'd bring a proper enforcer like Gilberto Silva was. The M'Villa rumours have gone cold now, but maybe it could still happen?
Or we could swap Denilson for Denisov! One letter less, one player more :LOL:

The "fans" were despicable in their treatment of Eboue. He had done a lot for the club before, you know, played right back, left back, wide midfielder, winger... No, he didn't deserve that.

As for Arshavin, many teams would be happy to indulge his solely offensive style. In Brazil, for instance, he would be instantly given the no.10 shirt and total freedom to create, while other defensive midfielders would be there with destruction as their priority.
 
Unfortunately there does seem to be a very vocal militant element of fans at the club. Éboué, Arshavin, even Ramsey a little bit have all become targets of the boo boys. It must be fairly demoralising for those players, in the case of the first two it's not just been one off booing for a mistake in one game, it's been persistant booing when the player's touched the ball, come on as a sub or even warmed up on the side of the pitch, and over quite a few games. Éboué wasn't a world class defender, but he was very adaptable and could play in a number of positions across the back line. I'd argue he was/is better than the likes of Jenkinson, Miquel and Squillaci and certainly at the start of the season he's could have been useful in the Liverpool home game or Old Trafford away game. With Arshavin he's booed for his alledged "laziness", without much consideration given to his physique (he's one of the smallest players in the league and so it's hard for him to win the ball back in a physical challenge) and the fact he never had to defend before joining Arsenal so it's essentially a new skill he has to learn. Even when he did his job defending (tracking Valencia for Man Utd's second goal at the Emirates), and other more out-and-out defensive players (Mertersaker/Koscielny) didn't pick up their man, Arshavin still got the blame. It seems some Arsenal players can get away with mistakes (Squillaci heading back into the danger area against Fulham away, even Fabregas doing a criminally stupid back heel against Barca on the edge of his box in the No Camp) yet there are other players who immediately suffer from the fans.
 
This is true. I went to a match in January against Aston Villa, it was an FA Cup tie, and I saw this for myself. The arena announcer was presenting the substitute players for that night and Arshavin got roundly booed. That was pre-match! Before the guy even touched a football... That's just disgraceful. I was utterly disgusted with those "fans".
And also that day against United when Ox came off, the fans were booing him. I don't know how that helps, I really don't.

Squilaci doesn't really get away with it I think. He didn't play or seat on the bench enough times to get booed. He played a total of 9 minutes last season!
But if you bring his name up on the terraces, it's comedy material really, no one rates him.
 
cfdh_edmundo said:
Unfortunately there does seem to be a very vocal militant element of fans at the club. Éboué, Arshavin, even Ramsey a little bit have all become targets of the boo boys. It must be fairly demoralising for those players, in the case of the first two it's not just been one off booing for a mistake in one game, it's been persistant booing when the player's touched the ball, come on as a sub or even warmed up on the side of the pitch, and over quite a few games. Éboué wasn't a world class defender, but he was very adaptable and could play in a number of positions across the back line. I'd argue he was/is better than the likes of Jenkinson, Miquel and Squillaci and certainly at the start of the season he's could have been useful in the Liverpool home game or Old Trafford away game. With Arshavin he's booed for his alledged "laziness", without much consideration given to his physique (he's one of the smallest players in the league and so it's hard for him to win the ball back in a physical challenge) and the fact he never had to defend before joining Arsenal so it's essentially a new skill he has to learn. Even when he did his job defending (tracking Valencia for Man Utd's second goal at the Emirates), and other more out-and-out defensive players (Mertersaker/Koscielny) didn't pick up their man, Arshavin still got the blame. It seems some Arsenal players can get away with mistakes (Squillaci heading back into the danger area against Fulham away, even Fabregas doing a criminally stupid back heel against Barca on the edge of his box in the No Camp) yet there are other players who immediately suffer from the fans.
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Eboue was at one time an embarassment to the club, diving and making stupid mistakes.

Ashavin is just shit. lazy and fucking useless and Ramsey i have not heard many boo him
 
You gotta be kidding jonney!

I lost count of how many matches in which Arshavin saved our ass and scored the winner. You can call him lazy by English football standards, yes. Useless and shite? I'll bet you didn't think so when we scored the winner against Barca.

And Eboue gave a lot to the club. Yeah he used to dive too much, that was his annoying thing, apart from stupid mistakes here and there. But Eboue was in the starting XI in our 2006 CL campaign all the way to the final.

People just get irrational in their hatred and search for a scapegoat. It's unbelievable!
 
That Arshavin death star shot against Barca, the 4-4 against Liverpool, the delightful chip to the foot of Henry against Sunderland. I have fond memories of Arshavin.
 
Lazy? Yes. Useless? :ROLL: :LOL:

He's got more talent in his LEFT-foot than most Arsenal players do in both.

He's a better player than Walcott will probably ever be.
 
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