Arsenal Thread

[jonneymendoza]

If you can't take our injuries into account then you have no platform on which to judge the performance. Without Gallas at the back, Song to protect the back four, Fabregas to keep possession, Arshavin and RVP to threaten their end then you are looking at a makeshift team.

Bearing that in mind we were duly dispatched 4-1. Well what did you expect? I think most people in here have said it was a brave performance but we were taken apart by a much better team. No shame in that.

So barcelona never had any injuries/suspensions? heads up they did. they was missing around 4 of their regular starting lineup yesterday. two cb's a fabregas type player and a striker who nearly single handedly killed us off in teh first leg.

O yes im fully aware about our injuries, why do you think i said we need more experienced players mate?Strength in depth springs to mind pal.

edit: You do know that having a big squad not only means we can replace injured players in certain positions but we can REST, YES REST KEY players in certain games. Had we have a player thats even half as decent as fabregas we could have rested him against Birmingham. Gallas? also could have been rested. Ashavin? i heard little rumbles that he has been carying a little knock these past few months.

We get lots of injuries because some of our players play too many games and their are times (like fabregas and gallas) that we HAVE to play them even if their not match fit

Watch the united game tonight, i heard rooney is not 100% but may still be in the bench, i HIGHLY doubt fergie is going to risk playing him the whole game until his leg is broken like what a certain mr wenger did with fabregas.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Even if the Chelsea players you mention were missing, I still reckon that Barcelona team would never score 4 against us, precisely because we wouldn't be tempted to make the same mistakes you did. It's all 'what ifs' though...

Exactly. Chelsea have a stronger squad then us and glad im not the only one who thinks messi had it easy(gifted goals)

 

[BobbyBox]

Exactly. Chelsea have a stronger squad then us and glad im not the only one who thinks messi had it easy(gifted goals)

Do you ever read anything?!

People have agreed our defence was shit and so on and so on and so on.

Jeez we keep going over old ground now and it is getting boring. You go crazy jonney and get a hernia over what you saw if you want.

Chelsea have a better squad yes, but they spent a heck of alot of money getting there.

But as they guy said it is all 'ifs and buts' but no matter what if you take the 3 best players out of the top teams (and even more first teamers like we had, literally 5 of our best players and captain) then you are going to suffer.

Chelsea may not have got beaten by 4 goals, they would play their way and get less goals scored against them. That is why all teams are different. I would rather go the next couple of years without winning a trophy and keep building, rather than take chelsea's philosophy.

The fact is we have built a great big fucking stadium no matter what anybody thinks, we need to pay that back. It's all for our long term future. It will effect us buying players, but we are not far from where we should be, we just need to keep going.

 

[Milanista]

What are these rumours about Eboue signing for Roma in the summer?

 

[Jumbo_]

I read he denied he wanted to leave today.

 

[drekkard]

Chelsea may not have got beaten by 4 goals, they would play their way and get less goals scored against them. That is why all teams are different.

In fact, I would say Chelsea would be more prone to a 0-0 tie or a narrow defeat, but I doubt they would have the chances Arsenal had at the Camp Nou. It's all down to styles. Personally, I prefer Arsenal style, which is similar to ours.

If you look at it the other way around, also all of the Arsenal goals were "gifted". The first goal at emirates comes from a very bad pass of Busquets at the own half giving the ball and then all the space of the world to Nasri, who can pass to Walcott with a zonal marking mistake by Maxwell and then the shot goes under the body of Valdes. The first goal of Arsenal at Barcelona comes from a (IMO) foul to Milito at the midfield and Marquez breaking the offside in a childish way almost at the halfline.

Most of the goals involve defenders mistakes. Overall, I think Arsenal defended better yesterday than in the Emirates as a team, and pression was quite good for long periods of time.

But at the end I'm with jonney in the sense that Arsenal needs more experience in all lines. And if experience costs money and Arsenal wants to stay up there, then money must be spent. We're not talking about loads and loads of cash, you don't need to spend like Chelsea, Madrid or Barcelona. In fact, the signing of Arshavin was exactly that. Only thing you need 3 or 4 more "arshavin" signings in the rest of lines. Some people like Chivu, Lucio, Robben, etc... would have been quality signigns for you at prices you actually CAN pay.

You can also say what a barcleona fan does bumping this thread, but as I love Arsenal and the style of play of the club since wenger arrival, I feel committed to put my oppinion, which comes from "outside" and maybe it's not poisoned by the day-to-day.

 

[BobbyBox]

You keep posting Drekkard. It's nice to have a different perspective

 

[jonneymendoza]

In fact, I would say Chelsea would be more prone to a 0-0 tie or a narrow defeat, but I doubt they would have the chances Arsenal had at the Camp Nou. It's all down to styles. Personally, I prefer Arsenal style, which is similar to ours.

If you look at it the other way around, also all of the Arsenal goals were "gifted". The first goal at emirates comes from a very bad pass of Busquets at the own half giving the ball and then all the space of the world to Nasri, who can pass to Walcott with a zonal marking mistake by Maxwell and then the shot goes under the body of Valdes. The first goal of Arsenal at Barcelona comes from a (IMO) foul to Milito at the midfield and Marquez breaking the offside in a childish way almost at the halfline.

Most of the goals involve defenders mistakes. Overall, I think Arsenal defended better yesterday than in the Emirates as a team, and pression was quite good for long periods of time.

But at the end I'm with jonney in the sense that Arsenal needs more experience in all lines. And if experience costs money and Arsenal wants to stay up there, then money must be spent. We're not talking about loads and loads of cash, you don't need to spend like Chelsea, Madrid or Barcelona. In fact, the signing of Arshavin was exactly that. Only thing you need 3 or 4 more "arshavin" signings in the rest of lines. Some people like Chivu, Lucio, Robben, etc... would have been quality signigns for you at prices you actually CAN pay.

You can also say what a barcleona fan does bumping this thread, but as I love Arsenal and the style of play of the club since wenger arrival, I feel committed to put my oppinion, which comes from "outside" and maybe it's not poisoned by the day-to-day .

yup exactly. all wenegr needs is 50-60m and lets face it. thats nowhere near as much as what teh likes of chelsea and man city spend these days. 50-60m will bring us 3-4 experience players easily ie ashavin like players.

Keep the same team we have now by not getting rid of anyone and add 3 new signing at least that are experience and i believe we can compete with the very best.

 

[BobbyBox]

yup exactly. all wenegr needs is 50-60m and lets face it. thats nowhere near as much as what teh likes of chelsea and man city spend these days. 50-60m will bring us 3-4 experience players easily ie ashavin like players.

Keep the same team we have now by not getting rid of anyone and add 3 new signing at least that are experience and i believe we can compete with the very best.

We are never going to have 60mil to spend on players, maybe half of that.

 

[jonneymendoza]

We are never going to have 60mil to spend on players, maybe half of that.

why never? what ever happened to the 30m+ we got from adebayor and toure?

anyways i suppsoe 30m will give us 2 players if where lucky. I think if we can buy a "torres" for 30m full wack i would be happy with that,

One thing missing with arsenal is a "thierry henry" type player who is simple world class and can turn a game in its head on his own like messi.

 

[bebo]

And if experience costs money and Arsenal wants to stay up there, then money must be spent. We're not talking about loads and loads of cash, you don't need to spend like Chelsea, Madrid or Barcelona. In fact, the signing of Arshavin was exactly that. Only thing you need 3 or 4 more "arshavin" signings in the rest of lines. Some people like Chivu, Lucio, Robben, etc... would have been quality signigns for you at prices you actually CAN pay.

You can also say what a barcleona fan does bumping this thread, but as I love Arsenal and the style of play of the club since wenger arrival, I feel committed to put my oppinion, which comes from "outside" and maybe it's not poisoned by the day-to-day.

I`m getting the impression that the English game is a bit too much for him to handle. He has turn a notch or 2 down on level of performance. Im not sure if Arshavin can handle a full season I hope Im talking out of mae arse just something inside of me says so....

 

[Joystick]

Being a good goalkeeper is not about playing one fantastic match. It's about being good all the time. Look at keepers like Schmeichel, Dassaev, Southall, Zoff, Buffon...no Arsenal keeper has been remotely as good as these kind of keepers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Lehmann#Honours

Individual

* UEFA Goalkeeper of the Year: 1997, 2006
* UEFA Club Football Awards Best Goalkeeper: 2005–06
* FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 2006


One performance? Come on now. He was in nets when we went a whole season unbeaten.

Now, for perspective, I'm not suggesting he's as good as Schmeichel, Zoff or anyone on that other planet as he did some pretty mental stuff too, but he was certainly a very good keeper.

Almunia is on the whole a solid shot stopper and is actually great with penalties. His decision making is suspect though and his kicking is atrocious. These things combined make him a 7/10 keeper. I've always said that he's not a bad keeper at all, worthy of a Premiership side but probably not a top four team. He's a good backup, but sadly I feel we need a top keeper to progress as a team, or at least someone who can develop into one.

 

[DagsJT]

Richard Keys, off air, on Walcott: "You've been s***e, son, in your daft pink boots - absolute rubbish. Get up, you stupid little boy."

Really can't stand Richard Keys

 

[Joystick]

So barcelona never had any injuries/suspensions? heads up they did. they was missing around 4 of their regular starting lineup yesterday. two cb's a fabregas type player and a striker who nearly single handedly killed us off in teh first leg.

Heads up, Barcelona are a bigger club than us. They have greater resources and can afford to have top quality on the bench. I think we'd all love Arsenal to be in the same position, and who knows one day maybe we will, but right now we're building.

Man Utd and Chelsea are ahead of us in England, but their
business models are completely unsustainable as we are seeing with the protests at Utd at the moment. Big money ownership is also no guarantee of success, as we've seen at Liverpool. Arsenal are trying something different, and yes it's going to take longer and will require patience. We are punching well above our weight at the moment on limited resources, but the stadium is built now and debt is more than under control. We can be a great team and the club clearly has ambitions to do it the right way rather than gamble on reaching the big time, ala Leeds Utd.

I love the way you're playing Championship Manager here with our supposed resources. Where do you think Wenger is getting £60M from? When have we ever had that kind of transfer budget? For the record, £30 from Adebayor & Toure went on Vermaelen, Arshavin the previous January and the rest on new contracts and the high wages we pay to the legion of youngsters we have at the academy. Those Carling cup kids don't come cheap.

Watch the united game tonight, i heard rooney is not 100% but may still be in the bench, i HIGHLY doubt fergie is going to risk playing him the whole game until his leg is broken like what a certain mr wenger did with fabregas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/8608695.stm

 

[gerd]

If i remember well Rooney did start the match against Bayern.

I think i know why Wenger buys younger player. IMO there are two sorts of coaches/managers.

The "chess player": most Italian coaches, Mourinho (a wanna be would Lo Zio say), ...
The "teacher": Van Gaal, Cruijff, Guardiola, Ramos, Sacchi

Wenger clearly is a teacher.
Chess players are thinking in the short term: winning matches to have results. Usually they are not very good with young players.
Teachers like Wenger think in the long term: to develop players, it's not so much about the result (which is still very important) but about the progress individual players (and the team) make. Teachers are not good with experienced players.
The weak point in all this is that quite a few players who were developed by Wenger leave Arsenal (because Arsenal is not rich enough???) and go to other teams. So Wenger develops players for other teams.

I still prefer a teacher to a chess player...although a chess player will win more silverware, but he will never stay long with a club.

What about Ferguson? I think he's more a teacher, but from all the teachers he's perhaps the best chess player...that's the reason that he's the most succesfull manager ever (that hurts).

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

How would you define Hiddink then ? I would say it's hard to put him in either, at PSV in the 1980s and early 90s and also at De Graafshcajp (can't spell it) he seemed to teach the younger players. But then in international management he seems to have been more of a chess player - also maybe his second spell with PSV (mid 2000s) when he took them to the semis of the CL, I would say he was more of a chess player.

 

[IceMan_Bergkamp]

Great analysis Gerd.

Ed, you referring to De Graafschap? (<- Might be the English spelling??)

 

[jonneymendoza]

Heads up, Barcelona are a bigger club than us. They have greater resources and can afford to have top quality on the bench. I think we'd all love Arsenal to be in the same position, and who knows one day maybe we will, but right now we're building.

Man Utd and Chelsea are ahead of us in England, but their
business models are completely unsustainable as we are seeing with the protests at Utd at the moment. Big money ownership is also no guarantee of success, as we've seen at Liverpool. Arsenal are trying something different, and yes it's going to take longer and will require patience. We are punching well above our weight at the moment on limited resources, but the stadium is built now and debt is more than under control. We can be a great team and the club clearly has ambitions to do it the right way rather than gamble on reaching the big time, ala Leeds Utd.

I love the way you're playing Championship Manager here with our supposed resources. Where do you think Wenger is getting £60M from? When have we ever had that kind of transfer budget? For the record, £30 from Adebayor & Toure went on Vermaelen, Arshavin the previous January and the rest on new contracts and the high wages we pay to the legion of youngsters we have at the academy. Those Carling cup kids don't come cheap.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/8608695.stm

Rooney got taken off because of injury

So your saying arsenal dont have any funds generated from reaching to the quarter finals of teh champions league, Tickets sold on every home match(9/10 being a complete sell out.)??

Dont clubs also get money from fa for finishing in a good league position?

 

[cfdh_edmundo]

that's the team, yeah I think that is where he started out coaching, might have been their reserve team coach.

 

[Joystick]

Rooney got taken off because of injury

So your saying arsenal dont have any funds generated from reaching to the quarter finals of teh champions league, Tickets sold on every home match(9/10 being a complete sell out.)??

Dont clubs also get money from fa for finishing in a good league position?

My point was Fergie did risk Rooney, only removing him when he couldn't play anymore, somewhat contrary to your prediction.

Yeah the club do have some money, just not the £60M transfer kitty you seem to allude to. If Chamakh comes in as expected then hopefully there will be enough for another defender and possibly a keeper. Fingers crosses eh?

This made me laugh:
http://goonertalk.com/2010/04/07/video-arsenal-fans-joke-with-spanish-tv-presenter-pre-barca/

Lucky she doesn't seem to understand English

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Its not that bad lads, you lost to Barcelona FFS! They would have beaten the other 7 sides left anyway. You need a possibly 2-3 new players (No major changes) and to sort out these injuries. You have a good enough team but the defence and defending in general needs to be worked on.

 

[lazyForken]

Joystick... how can you say barca have money to spend on superior bench? olmost all their player come from the barca ranks...just a couple of cheap, but usefull signin made in the summer...you cant say barca are a big spender in transfer market...

Arsenal are one of the richest club in the world...you cant use this excuse for our failure in the cl.

I think the problem is were forming too many attacking midfielders...with no physical presence or defense skills, thats we we must buy this summer, some big lads to strenghen that midfield and that defense.

 

[bebo]

Joystick... how can you say barca have money to spend on superior bench? olmost all their player come from the barca ranks...just a couple of cheap, but usefull signin made in the summer...you cant say barca are a big spender in transfer market...

Arsenal are one of the richest club in the world...you cant use this excuse for our failure in the cl.

I think the problem is were forming too many attacking midfielders...with no physical presence or defense skills, thats we we must buy this summer, some big lads to strenghen that midfield and that defense.

Ibrahimović currently holds the record for the third highest transfer fee in football history, with a total of €69 million for his transfer from Internazionale to Barcelona.Yeah cheap... Dani Alves,He joined Barcelona for €34 million plus add-ons of €6 million, becoming the most expensive defender in history...yeah cheap no big spender compare to RM or ManCity,but bigger than Mutd ,Chelsea & Spurs!

I will agree most of the core are from the academy... but Barca are Bigger than Arsenal. EPL is a richer venue so money-wise (on paper) Arsenal looks good ,but Arsenal are 7th team in Europe if Im honest.

 

[drekkard]

Well, Barcelona are definitely big spenders. Half of our players come from the youth teams, but the other half is a group of expensive players bought with big loads of cash: Alves, Ibrahimovic, Keita, Chigrinsky, Abidal, Milito, Henry. Then there's the "middle class", or signings that went well for the relative low cost: Toure, Pique, Marquez, Maxwell, Pinto...

It's a kind of mixed-model, combining great youngsters formed at the club and great players from the world that come here with lots of experience and talent. The mix of all makes the strong squad. Money plays an important role, but not the most important one.

Youngsters play the same tactics and football style than the first team, that's why all young players know how to play in the team and what they will be asked. But there are the great stars from abroad, also, like Ronaldinho or Deco some years ago. It is a known fact that Messi was the shadow of Ronaldinho, big friends, and he was all the time trying to learn from him. Fortunately for us, he learnt most of the good things from him, only. And Ronaldinho and Deco were holding all the pressure, making the youngsters more "free", just as now Xavi and Messi hold the pressure and people like Pedro or Busquets can develop more "free of charge".

I think it would be interesting for Arsenal to find those "holding" players that would free the younger players.

I doubt Messi would have developed so well in any other scenario.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Well, Barcelona are definitely big spenders. Half of our players come from the youth teams, but the other half is a group of expensive players bought with big loads of cash: Alves, Ibrahimovic, Keita, Chigrinsky, Abidal, Milito, Henry. Then there's the "middle class", or signings that went well for the relative low cost: Toure, Pique, Marquez, Maxwell, Pinto...

It's a kind of mixed-model, combining great youngsters formed at the club and great players from the world that come here with lots of experience and talent. The mix of all makes the strong squad. Money plays an important role, but not the most important one.

Youngsters play the same tactics and football style than the first team, that's why all young players know how to play in the team and what they will be asked. But there are the great stars from abroad, also, like Ronaldinho or Deco some years ago. It is a known fact that Messi was the shadow of Ronaldinho, big friends, and he was all the time trying to learn from him. Fortunately for us, he learnt most of the good things from him, only. And Ronaldinho and Deco were holding all the pressure, making the youngsters more "free", just as now Xavi and Messi hold the pressure and people like Pedro or Busquets can develop more "free of charge".

I think it would be interesting for Arsenal to find those "holding" players that would free the younger players.

I doubt Messi would have developed so well in any other scenario.

The part highlighted above is the number one reason why arsenal need to buy. i said how the likes of nasri and diaby have NO ONE to look up to and until the day we buy a experience player that our youngsters can learn from we wont win sweet FA

 

[gerd]

That is actually a very good point jonney.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Indeed it is. Look at our past best players, Both anelka and Henry all learned tehir trade and looked up to bergkamp. Toure with Adams and co. Clichy to an extent Ashley cole. Fabregas to Viera, Adebayor to Henry etc etc.

We need some experienced blood in our side. 3-4 players can be purchased using 50m of money but as bobby said, we would be lucky to even have 30m to spend on transfers.

Lets be really realy serious. is 50m A LOT to invest in a team?

Maybe 10 years go it could have been but now the norm seems to be around the 100m mark to spend.

 

[bebo]

now you see why Dein felt a new stadium would hurt our chances in transfer market. Dein wanted to use wembley as a home stadium.Dein got the boot and Stadium was built. How many clubs have new stadiums built and have big transfer kitty ? why wont chelsea or pool build. Arsenal in the long run are almost there a new stadium and are very close at the top w/ a lower debt compare to other clubs. Your arguments are old though something has to give .I give Wenger lots of credit able to spend small and maybe not win F all atm but look how close we are at the top. Buying big players could put us in a bad situation 1st experience for the sake of it isn`t always good. Henry wasn`t helping no one but himself near the end we played better after he left.

Wenger is doing all the sowing and soon his works will be reaping...I just wonder if he will be here as gaffer to reap it or will it be someone else claiming glory. When I see gooners cry cause lack of so called experience players they are concern for the now! a small picture for the price of success come in different ways and to build a dynasty it takes years and I will see the fruits of Arsenal`s labor soon. Its faith...

 

[Joystick]

Buying big players could put us in a bad situation 1st experience for the sake of it isn`t always good. Henry wasn`t helping no one but himself near the end we played better after he left.

Agreed. I think everyone knows we need a few more choice experienced signings like Arshavin and Vermaelen, but buying big players for the sake of it is a) expensive and b) risky. Besides, it is only really our midfield that can be considered 'young'.

Up front we have Van Persie (27 in August), Eduardo (27) and Arshavin (28).

In defence we have Campbell (35), Gallas (32), Vermaelen (24), Sagna (27) and Clichy (24).

Wenger is doing all the sowing and soon his works will be reaping...I just wonder if he will be here as gaffer to reap it or will it be someone else claiming glory. When I see gooners cry cause lack of so called experience players they are concern for the now! a small picture for the price of success come in different ways and to build a dynasty it takes years and I will see the fruits of Arsenal`s labor soon. Its faith...

Too true. Some fans are only interested in success NOW NOW NOW, but the reality is no team has the right to trophies. Sometimes you need to take a longer view in light of the level of competition you face.

 

[jonneymendoza]

So we could potentialy end up as the next "manchester united" ie winning the title 3 out 5 seasons for the next 20 years?