PES 2019 Discussion Thread (PS4, XB1)

Turdi182 said:
Guys what would you choose for Pes 2020?
A more refined Pes 2019 with (slightly) better gameplay, better menus, better ai and so on.. but still on Fox Engine or
a completely new approach on a new engine (Unreal 4 for example) which would have bigger problems of course because it's a new project but would be something fresh and a new chance for Konami?

Personally I don't think that we will get a new engine this year. I think it's going to be Fox until 2021 at least.
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Revolution. That's all i'll say. Even a good balanced Pes is not enough anymore for me. How long has it been since the last time we truly felt the difference and a big jump forward in the way Pes played?

Pes 2014? But it was a failure because Konami didn't really support it.
 
You can have Elon Musk project you the perfect engine for football gaming, but if the focus is the same as the last years we'd just end up as unsatisfied as always.

I'd say as of now intentions are more important than else. If I'd somehow know for certain that they'd took Pes 2019 and give it a solid direction, I'd pay in advance for 2020.
 
Madmac79 said:
You can have Elon Musk project you the perfect engine for football gaming, but if the focus is the same as the last years we'd just end up as unsatisfied as always.

I'd say as of now intentions are more important than else. If I'd somehow know for certain that they'd took Pes 2019 and give it a solid direction, I'd pay in advance for 2020.
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Their direction, unless something changes, is: tweaks to modes and gameplay just to fool people thinking they thought about offline, too. "Improvements" to Myclub to be even more pay to win.

We have already seen this with EA and Fifa.

They had a vision when every new Pes was so improved on the previous one that you just couldn't go back to play it because it was obsolete. Now, you can choose between Pes 2015-16-17-18-19 and they all play 99% the same. There is nothing really improved between these games and the real improvements are, unsurprisingly, just to Myclub. I don't expect anything more, especially now that we are at the end of this console cycle. If (and that'a a big IF) a real change will come it will be with the new consoles in a couple of years.
 
Ameppe said:
Revolution. That's all i'll say. Even a good balanced Pes is not enough anymore for me. How long has it been since the last time we truly felt the difference and a big jump forward in the way Pes played?

Pes 2014? But it was a failure because Konami didn't really support it.
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I dont know. I thought that 19 was a decent jump forward comparing to last few years. It has huge potential and thats where so much controversy and frustration comes from.
If it had better AI, less scripted matches, proper player ID and D2's it would be best football game I have played in ages.

So for me, there is much bigger chance to get this right, than to get a new engine right.
With new engine we may as well be waiting another 5 years for a decent version.

And with the above mentioned resources they have? If thats true, I dont know how they will even approach this..

Unless they have a new engine version being developed and tested on the side for a while now. Which I dont think they do.
 
Although i am not a programmer, i don´t regard the current shortcomings as engine limitations. Much more they seem to be calculated design decisions.

Until FIFA gets past them in graphics, physics and animation flow (EA seems to be lightyears away from that at the moment), KONAMI has all the time in the world to finetune gameplay and AI as well as generate as much content as possible (or give the community the options to do so).
 
Ameppe said:
Problems come from Japanese managers in Konami. If they decide Pes has to be developed with the lowest budget possible and earn as much money as possible they are shaping the game to be what we have seen these recent years.

Little money for development means less developers, and the ones that are working on the game are overwhelmed with things to do, often having to manage two completely different sections of the game. So, this means less accuracy when developing the code and many bugs and issues that are never fixed. Couple this with the nonexistant beta testing and the focus on online and you will understand why even gameplay feels so limited.

Pes needs a revolution, but they can't even manage a solid evolution the way they are developing the game now. All because of Konami's executives. They are the ones to make decisions, even if dev team understands there is something wrong with the game. developers simply don't have the manpower to act and really improve the gameplay.

It's all done with such costraints that we will have in February the two stadiums they promised almost one year ago and i bet all dev team focus has been on releasing the stadiums as quickly as possible, so probably they don't even have time to sit there, debug the code, and try to fix gameplay issues. The patch they released is just an hotfix that really didn't change anything about the way AI attacks. Obviously you can't really fix anything when something is so deeply flawed. A quick fix won't do that.

In conclusion, if you want to give feedback feel free, but right now it's useless as it's destined to fall on deaf ears most probably because they don't have the means to act on it. Blame the executives, blame the same Konami that decided console games are no more useful to earn money, don't blame developers that always do the best they can with the limited resources they receive.
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Don't think there is such a clear-cut responsibility. After all managers only react to demand and right now there is simply no market for a well-balanced offline simulation.

Like Chris said, kids don't want to spend weeks to figure out tactics and months to bring QPR to win the Premiership or CL, they want a quick fix, they want to pick Juve, Barca, Manchester to "pwn" someone online, level up quick and post this on Youtube. Or they are looking for an E-Sports platform. EA have identified this early on. Of course, as a Konami rep I would feel envious and try to get as much of this cake as possible as long as it is still shared. And to ask a revolution is easy from us to do. We don't have to put the millions on the table such a move would probably burn.

If they want to create something unique, they should jump on the AI train, invest heavily and leverage the huge developments that happen there and try to create an AI that is no longer distinguishable from a human. This will happen sooner or later (I don't know if you have seen the Google Duplex presentation, if not check it out on Youtube) and when this is in place, categories like "offline" or "online" won't matter anymore because you won't be able to tell whether you are playing against a human or a machine in the first place. I am pretty sure, however, that EA is already considering this.
 
Ameppe said:
Their direction, unless something changes, is: tweaks to modes and gameplay just to fool people thinking they thought about offline, too. "Improvements" to Myclub to be even more pay to win.

We have already seen this with EA and Fifa.

They had a vision when every new Pes was so improved on the previous one that you just couldn't go back to play it because it was obsolete. Now, you can choose between Pes 2015-16-17-18-19 and they all play 99% the same. There is nothing really improved between these games and the real improvements are, unsurprisingly, just to Myclub. I don't expect anything more, especially now that we are at the end of this console cycle. If (and that'a a big IF) a real change will come it will be with the new consoles in a couple of years.
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I kinda agree (in the sense that small steps and lazy offline is probably what they'll do anyway with 2020) but then again it's useless to hope for revolutions. If they can't go beyond tweaks and focus on My Club it's vain to expect something that plays as a true big jump AND as a satisfying game for us.
 
Ameppe said:
They had a vision when every new Pes was so improved on the previous one that you just couldn't go back to play it because it was obsolete. Now, you can choose between Pes 2015-16-17-18-19 and they all play 99% the same. There is nothing really improved between these games and the real improvements are, unsurprisingly, just to Myclub.
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There is really enough to throw at KONAMI, but that´s crazy.

16 and 17 were nothing but unplayable for everyone with the slightest taste of simulation approach. Movement physics and CPU AI were completely detached from reality, scoring with the goalkeeper on superstar level was a promising playstyle.

This changed with PES2018, which marked the most intense step towards reality since PES2014. I regard PES2019 as a refined version of PES2018, more polished in graphics, animation and physical outcomes.
 
Emroth said:
I dont know. I thought that 19 was a decent jump forward comparing to last few years. It has huge potential and thats where so much controversy and frustration comes from.
If it had better AI, less scripted matches, proper player ID and D2's it would be best football game I have played in ages.

So for me, there is much bigger chance to get this right, than to get a new engine right.
With new engine we may as well be waiting another 5 years for a decent version.

...
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Totally this!

As much as I liked PES 2014 at the first look and as much as I found it revolutionary, KONAMI devs had totally overstrained themselves with the fox engine, that the outcome was a toned down beta version for a year with features that have been cut out.
Remember the cut from PES 2013´s ML to PES 2014´s ML?

We´re so distrustful to KONAMI, aren´t we?
The past showed it.

Actually, I´m an optimistic person, but I don´t trust them to bring out a PES game with a new engine, that won´t end up in the same disaster as it happened with PES 2014.
 
Rodchenko said:
Don't think there is such a clear-cut responsibility. After all managers only react to demand and right now there is simply no market for a well-balanced offline simulation.
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You are right, companies react to what the market asks them and nowadays casual gamers are all about that FUT mode.
When i said blame managers maybe i was wrong.

The problem is Konami right now is so risk averse it has stopped releasing something that is really evolutionary, let alone revolutionary. They can still follow the market but also try to make something new with the only console game they release each year, that's where they are doing wrong.
 
Ameppe said:
The problem is Konami right now is so risk averse it has stopped releasing something that is really evolutionary, let alone revolutionary. They can still follow the market but also try to make something new with the only console game they release each year, that's where they are doing wrong.
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I am not that familiar with Japanese business culture so I might be wrong, but I don't believe that 'revolution' or 'trying something new' is deeply ingrained there. This is more a Western thing, in the digital business clearly spearheaded by Silicon Valley. I think there is such a strong hierarchical structure in many Japanese companies, that creativity is often curtailed. Respect and attention of your superiors is put at the forefront. This is not an environment where innovation or 'riskiness' can flourish (of course, there are always exceptions, like Sony of the 90s).

I can totally see that the reason why PES will not make any substantial steps ahead in the next 10 years is because nobody wants to make Seabass' lose his face by questioning his original vision. A fresh start would require this, however. Blank slate, tabula rasa. A young developer hero with a new vision.
 
Micro transactions and mobile games.
That's where konami is right now.

The state of konami with two of their (in my mind) best games Metal Gear and PES now and then...
Seabass and Hideo gone.
Although PES has taken huge steps with 18 and 19 they still manage to fuck it up with no D2s and insane scripting,a worse ML than Pes 12/13.
Why?
They don't need to make great games anymore,micro transaction and mobile games brings home the bacon for both PES and MG.
Plus a new customer base who doesn't care about realistic football,as long as they can open packs on YT,and YouTubers opening packs are what sells the game.

I'd just wish we had an opportunity to be able to edit and fix the gameplay on all platforms to our liking.
I can't see either konami or EA fulfilling our needs with these games.
Which is strange,since EA is doing it with madden and NHL (and even NBA Live) and konami has the opportunity of a lifetime to fill that void,but they won't!
Cue the old games for me
 
Rodchenko said:
I am not that familiar with Japanese business culture so I might be wrong, but I don't believe that 'revolution' or 'trying something new' is deeply ingrained there. This is more a Western thing, in the digital business clearly spearheaded by Silicon Valley. I think there is such a strong hierarchical structure in many Japanese companies, that creativity is often curtailed. Respect and attention of your superiors is put at the forefront. This is not an environment where innovation or 'riskiness' can flourish (of course, there are always exceptions, like Sony of the 90s).

I can totally see that the reason why PES will not make any substantial steps ahead in the next 10 years is because nobody wants to make Seabass' lose his face by questioning his original vision. A fresh start would require this, however. Blank slate, tabula rasa. A young developer hero with a new vision.
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This clearly isn't seabass vision anymore tho. Last game he was credited for was Pes 2012.

From 2014 It already was a fresh start. Problem Is that It isn't the One we wished for.
 
Bah, to hell with all this crap, honestly. I´m grown enough to avoid this kind of stuff. I don´t need gaming to be happy, not even close. Gaming is just a hobby, it´s just an escape from boring times. When I start to rage against my TV then I know I had enough. This game is absolute s#@t. The more I play the more I see this. I love the overall, but I hate the logic behind it. The game could be perfect, I just don´t understand why they implemented certain things that absolutely kill the joy, frustrates players, and leads us to broken controllers. I´m gonna gie this try on regular and PA0, just for some kicks and a small fix on soccer, but if this doesn´t prove to be a rather light and fun experience, I´ll uninstall everything. Maybe I´ll get back to 2017, wich was actually playable on TP and PA0, were CPU actually made missed attempts. Konami might as well just quit this.
 
Madmac79 said:
This clearly isn't seabass vision anymore tho.
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Not sure. According to what I heard, he is still supervising as an elder statesman, so to say. That alone could intimidate some of the younger employees and make them keep fresh ideas to themselves. How can I step up when the godfather himself pops in every once in a while or sits over there in a cubicle...

And I personally think there is still a lot of his vision in the game – good and bad. He said once that he wanted "every match to tell a story" – to me, there is even today a direct line from this quote to the scripting, the faux "excitement" and the stats-bending we all complain so much about.

It would be a truly revolutionary step to forget about that story-telling (and RPG) stuff and create a game that is purely stats-based and agnostic to any sentimentalities. All the more since nobody is playing offline anymore anyways.
 
Want a (r)evolution? Pray that someone with gigantic balls (and power...) calls out sports games developers for the absolutely illegal, imoral and downright evil microtransaction scheme, forcing them to abandon it and to look for alternatives to attract their fanbase in a way that doesn't necessarily require exploiting minors and getting away with it. I don't even care that much about adults participating on this, if one has the money and can't find anything better to do with it...but minors? May these f*ckers rot in hell.

As for the future of PES, the following might be relevant to the discussion.
As you might know, the equivalent of the PES vs FIFA market "war" on basketball gaming is NBA Live vs. NBA2K. Now, though we're talking about two different sports here, there are a few similarities between EA's NBA Live and PES. Both absolutely dominated the market in the PS2 days, and curiously, both began their decline exactly when they released their 2008 iterations. Nowadays, both FIFA and NBA2K are the undisputed winners of this battle for their audiences.
We can all agree PES has f*cked up a lot over the last decade, but still NBA Live found a way to surpass it: back in 2010 EA changed the name of the game and called it "NBA Elite", but ended up not releasing the game on that year, the series went on a hiatus, then returned in 2013 under the old name "NBA Live", another hiatus in 2016, returned in 2017...a big-ol' mess, as you can see. As a result, the Live series is currently in shambles, and though NBA 2K's community complains daily about NBA2K's ever-more-arcade-ish gameplay and the evil business practices fueled by the microtransaction money, like pay-to-win (...reminds you of FIFA?...), NBA Live can't get a break and compete directly with its rival...just like PES can't compete with FIFA.

Last week it was announced that 2K (developer of NBA2K) signed a 7-year, $1.1 billion (!!!) deal with the NBA, a move that many are considering to be the final nail in Live's coffin.
First, it goes to show how much money these producers have these days, which should be eye-opening for those amateur editors working for free, modding the games and correcting the flaws of a product released by billion-dollar companies. They're so poor that they can't fix shitty menus, right...
Anyway, while there are many differences between PES and NBA Live, this news got me thinking about what could be the future of PES. FIFA is hoarding all the important licenses now that they added the CL to the list, and EA's clearly able to outbid Konami's attempts at getting any of them, for FIFA is not only much more popular but sells much more.

I get the impression that Konami is just trying to "get by" and get their share of the microtransaction pie before calling it quits - or before there's a crackdown on this practice and shuts it all down - and ending the series. Or am I wrong, and the current business model of PES is actually sustainable on long-term, despite not being able to compete directly with FIFA?
 
Rodchenko said:
Not sure. According to what I heard, he is still supervising as an elder statesman, so to say. That alone could intimidate some of the younger employees and make them keep fresh ideas to themselves. How can I step up when the godfather himself pops in every once in a while or sits over there in a cubicle...

And I personally think there is still a lot of his vision in the game – good and bad. He said once that he wanted "every match to tell a story" – to me, there is even today a direct line from this quote to the scripting, the faux "excitement" and the stats-bending we all complain so much about.

It would be a truly revolutionary step to forget about that story-telling (and RPG) stuff and create a game that is purely stats-based and agnostic to any sentimentalities. All the more since nobody is playing offline anymore anyways.
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, the separation from the past produced in 2014 and then perpetuated onwards was gigantic, and that indeed because 2014 was the first chapter in which stats fully became this grey, confusing area influenced and overwritten by many other factors they are today.

I don't agree either on the story-telling topic. If you think about it, a real football game IS, something that tells you a story. So in this regard he completely nailed it, behind all the problems and flaws. In the past, of course.. when the game was directed mainly to offline players.
The problem with today is just that the narrative is shifted and the focus is to give people who plays a meta and spend on microtransactions, something to play with all the season long. Just that.

Or at least, I repeat, it's my point of view.
 
The story driven concept is not an option. They did try, I´m ok with that. But it´s clear to everyone that it´s a bad choice, a horrible one tbh. Soccer games are supposed to be free, like a never ending sandbox mode. We want emotion, and surprises, but not to the point that the game feels pointless because it chooses every outcome for us. Why should I play a play off when it´s already decided I won´t go through?

This happens even on Pro level, wich is unbelieavable. I´m on a spot now that, if I raise the level, the game is unplayable, but if I lower it, I dominate all matches with 60%+ possession, 15/7 shots/shots on goal, but I still loose because CPU scored with a 2/2 shots on goal. Stats are so good for user on Pro, but so unbalanced for CPU...
Seriously, I quit this, and I leave with the idea that I wasted too much time with it, sadly...
 
xicpanad said:
This happens even on Pro level, wich is unbelieavable. I´m on a spot now that, if I raise the level, the game is unplayable, but if I lower it, I dominate all matches with 60%+ possession, 15/7 shots/shots on goal, but I still loose because CPU scored with a 2/2 shots on goal. Stats are so good for user on Pro, but so unbalanced for CPU...
Seriously, I quit this, and I leave with the idea that I wasted too much time with it, sadly...
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This game hits a new low for CPU scoring 100% of their chances. They score on a whim without need for momentum, pressure or context. Not sure how anyone can regard this as simulation.

Oh and Dele Alli just came on for Rose at left back for Spurs. 2019 and the AI can't change it's formation.
 
Sadly we´ve come to a time were everything is easy, consumable. It´s burguers, pizzas, etc... kids prefer to play short, easy tablet games rather than play on the street... it´s the "fast and easy satisfaction" era. I never thought this would influence the gaming as much, but it has. They´ll never deliver a hardcore fan based game, they will always look for the majority of consumers, and today most of them live on this visual and short emotional experience that online features are offering. It´s bad at all levels, but hey, it makes tons of money so who cares?
 
Madmac79 said:
This clearly isn't seabass vision anymore tho. Last game he was credited for was Pes 2012.

From 2014 It already was a fresh start. Problem Is that It isn't the One we wished for.
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2014 was an attempt. A failure they quickly dismissed the year after going back to the basis of what we have now.
This is why Pes 2015-2019 are all substantially the same game, just tweaked year after year. Sometimes with additions and other times with things removed.
 
jesus the scripting is disgusting in ML in my first season on superstar I have clawed my way up to within 3 points of the play offs with 3 games left and face Crotone at home who I beat earlier in the season away 3-0

but crotone don''t turn up its actually the Brazil 1970 team in disguise but thats alright ill give it a try difficult is more fun...well theres difficult and theres being trolled when the ball bounces back to them repeatedly even times where you have 2 hours to control it and your CB decided to just let it bounce off his big toe hell maybe your CM has a man open 3 yards away you pass but it sends it the opposite way straight to their ST to put him through?

oh and I loved seeing them score the same goal over and over hit at 100mph from 12yards in to the top corner beautiful

did I mention checking the replay when you don't understand why your player didn't intercept that lose ball its because the game added in another animation of him going backwards a yard first before attacking the ball like you asked him but too late they have got it

now you may think im just moaning but believe you me I almost fell off my chair laughing when i played Pescara at home 3-1 down with 10 mins left I play out of my skin and make it 3-3 and in injury time I score!!! yesss!!! no wait a minute offside..watches the replay..wtf im on?!! thats right no BS no lying I was onside clear as day

I gave it a go I never liked the game much to begin with I liked 17/18 in ML I had some fun once I learnt 18 I ended up winning the lot in 8 seasons I believe I could on 2019 but its too scripted and the AI are so one dimentional its a joke
 
Adding to some of the brilliant points above, i took competitive aspect in footy games very seriously, mainly because of the love for the sport. I know for a fact that older PES games allowed the character of each gamer translate more prominently than newer PES, mainly because of the degrees of AI intervention. Matches in older games felt more personal because you had more control of the game and freedom than say, AI dictating most of the aspect. These days, people get mad more at the game than the opponent they are playing against. Companies these days just wont allow players' skill to dictate the game because that would scare the casual half of the market off.

As for PES, they have only one option, at least from my perspective. They need to bring in something so disruptive in sports game that it will make the highlights everywhere, just like Rockstar did with their open world games. I think Konami succeeded in that when the first moved PES to ps2 era, the peak was during ps5/6 where popular players were playing PES over FIFA in several documentaries without even endorsing (seen Zlatan played in one of his older documentaries). But then again, i don't see this happening anytime soon.
Nothing quenched my competitive footy fix and so i moved back to playing real indoor/grass (summers) football, and nothing is more satisfying. As pointed above, maybe its sign that people like me are giving up on footy games.
 
Got epic comeback with friend in coop
from 1-2 to 3-2 in last 2 minutes of the match

love this game sometimes

 
Maybe one for the ML thread but I just finished my year with AC Milan and it was a disaster. 14th place, lost the Europa League final. Reason why I post this here instead, is that this highlighted an obvious flaw, even with the owner literally having 0% trust towards me, the club offered me an extension. What exactly do I have to do to get fired in this game? Is it even possible?
 
saintric said:
jesus the scripting is disgusting in ML in my first season on superstar I have clawed my way up to within 3 points of the play offs with 3 games left and face Crotone at home who I beat earlier in the season away 3-0

but crotone don''t turn up its actually the Brazil 1970 team in disguise but thats alright ill give it a try difficult is more fun...well theres difficult and theres being trolled when the ball bounces back to them repeatedly even times where you have 2 hours to control it and your CB decided to just let it bounce off his big toe hell maybe your CM has a man open 3 yards away you pass but it sends it the opposite way straight to their ST to put him through?

oh and I loved seeing them score the same goal over and over hit at 100mph from 12yards in to the top corner beautiful

did I mention checking the replay when you don't understand why your player didn't intercept that lose ball its because the game added in another animation of him going backwards a yard first before attacking the ball like you asked him but too late they have got it

now you may think im just moaning but believe you me I almost fell off my chair laughing when i played Pescara at home 3-1 down with 10 mins left I play out of my skin and make it 3-3 and in injury time I score!!! yesss!!! no wait a minute offside..watches the replay..wtf im on?!! thats right no BS no lying I was onside clear as day

I gave it a go I never liked the game much to begin with I liked 17/18 in ML I had some fun once I learnt 18 I ended up winning the lot in 8 seasons I believe I could on 2019 but its too scripted and the AI are so one dimentional its a joke
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True.
Loved this game til the last patch cc American,can't play it now.
I had half a season on 18 before picking it up again,and I prefer that to 19,and it looks like Pes 19,though it's stunning the way it looks,and how it feels on the ball,will be my least played game (2009 doesn't count) ever in the Pes series
 
Madmac79 said:
I don't agree either on the story-telling topic. If you think about it, a real football game IS, something that tells you a story. So in this regard he completely nailed it, behind all the problems and flaws. In the past, of course.. when the game was directed mainly to offline players.
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Yes, it's fine to disagree, that's what these forums are about.

My opinion: 80% of RL football games tell us the story that the stronger team wins. Period. That's of course not a very exciting story and I understand that you want to spruce it up a little. Yet, the problem I always had with Seabass "storytelling" approach is that he tried to turn every story into this nailbiting, tight encounter, undecided until the last second. Every game in ML is a potential ManU-Bayern '99 or Liverpool - Milan 2005 (was it?). The reason we remember these matches is because they are few and far between. They do not happen every weekend (at least not to the same team) but they seem to happen every fn fixture in Master League. The excess of this (and the scripting it entails) might be different today, but I remember having this in every ML version since the old PS1 days.

I am now almost through my ML campaign and there has not been one match in over 40 which I was able to dominate or (except for two) win by a margin of more than one goal. Every game is 1-0, 0-1, 2-1, 1-1. The challenge between, say, Huddersfield and ManCity is negligible. As a matter of fact, the most ridiculously OPed teams are the second benchers like Leicester, Palace or Burnley.

I won the first CL elimination match vs Lyon 2-0 away. Easy peasy. Now I've just played the return leg twice and both times it ended 1-2 for Lyon. My United team is through, I should be happy, but the game wouldn't "let" me through without telling me yet another of its boring News at 10: Did-United-hang-on-to-her-tight-lead-until-the-final-whistle? stories. It's just so tiring.

Of course, some of this is down to me playing on SS and to my (mediocre) skills, but why oh, why – if I have a TS of 97 and a whole bunch of arrow-up players – can't I once bring home a game without someone wanting to tell me a captivating story?

This, to me, is the (somewhat rotten) legacy of Seabass that I hope someone will challenge at some point.
 
Isslander said:
Maybe one for the ML thread but I just finished my year with AC Milan and it was a disaster. 14th place, lost the Europa League final. Reason why I post this here instead, is that this highlighted an obvious flaw, even with the owner literally having 0% trust towards me, the club offered me an extension. What exactly do I have to do to get fired in this game? Is it even possible?
Click to expand...

I don´t know all the details on your master league, but yes, you can be fired. I was fired on my first season after loosing several matches in a row.
 
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