The greatest player ever IMHO

bonjovifan said:
There's something about George Best that makes me love to watch him play, it's that kind of arrogance he has, something I saw a lot of in Cantona too.
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Yep….though Cantona would have been better if he had played for Everton….don’t question it just trust me Haha

Blue4life said:
With out question george best was the greatest player to play this game , seen the documentary when pele admited best was best! he did it on crappy mud filled pitches crap boots and all, not the bowling greens are so called super stars play on today
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Nodding like a nodding dog.

RuneEdge said:
O'Shea.
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Professor Nutmeg said:
Carlton Palmer
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Mere mortals when placed next to the god of lumping it forward that is Kevin Zinedine Kilbane :twisted::freak:

steevio_uk said:
... of course there is.

You could discuss how Maradona played in a team of much inferior players as what Pele did and also in a much stronger league than what Pele did.

Pele never done anything domestically outside of Brazil and unfortunately Best never got the chance to do it at international level, hence the unfair lack of worldwide recognition.

Maradona took an average Napoli team to the Italian title and an OK Argentina team to the World Cup.
Pele had the benefit of playing with the very best players alongside him (as did Best to a certain extent at Man Utd at the time) and also in a weaker league.

Indeed grounds for discussion, don't you think?;)
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Whoaaa now!!!

That’s logical, your applying common sense and logic, that talk will get you nowhere sunshine:nono:
 
Don Domenico said:
That Napoli team wasn't nearly as average as is often maintained.
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indeed Don and the Argentinian national team had some real class players (Burruchaga, Valdano).
Besides that the only WC that Maradonna has won was in one of the weakest WC's ever...Even Belgium went to the semi's....
Pele has won 3 WC's in 1970 for example they won it against a superb Italian team were Gianni Rivera (one of the best Italian players ever) wasn't even sure to of a regular first team place. Furthermore the legendary West-German team with the likes of Muller, Beckenbauer, Seeler and Netzer were in the semi's and the fourth country was Uruguay (who at the time was a football giant).

When he was an "old" player Pele went to play in the USA for the New York Cosmos. That Cosmos team managed to beat the national teams of Argentina (with Maradonna then only 17) and Uruguay. They even beat the mighty Bayern Munchen.

There really is no discussion at all...and i'm not sure that Maradonna is even the second best player ever. Likely candidates: Di Stefano and Puskas (six Euro I titles with real madrid anyone???), Cruijff and Garrincha.
When Pele played most South American players stayed in South America i'm pretty sure that the leagues of Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and maybe even Colombia were as good as the top European leagues
 
gerd said:
indeed Don and the Argentinian national team had some real class players (Burruchaga, Valdano).
Besides that the only WC that Maradonna has won was in one of the weakest WC's ever...Even Belgium went to the semi's....
Pele has won 3 WC's in 1970 for example they won it against a superb Italian team were Gianni Rivera (one of the best Italian players ever) wasn't even sure to of a regular first team place. Furthermore the legendary West-German team with the likes of Muller, Beckenbauer, Seeler and Netzer were in the semi's and the fourth country was Uruguay (who at the time was a football giant).

When he was an "old" player Pele went to play in the USA for the New York Cosmos. That Cosmos team managed to beat the national teams of Argentina (with Maradonna then only 17) and Uruguay. They even beat the mighty Bayern Munchen.

There really is no discussion at all...and i'm not sure that Maradonna is even the second best player ever. Likely candidates: Di Stefano and Puskas (six Euro I titles with real madrid anyone???), Cruijff and Garrincha.
When Pele played most South American players stayed in South America i'm pretty sure that the leagues of Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and maybe even Colombia were as good as the top European leagues
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I think you have a revisionary view of history and elastic logic to go with it.

The World Cup in 86 was actually a very good standard. It could easily be argued that 86 was better or equal to any of the following world cups 82, 90, 94, 98, 02, 06. Certainly it was a world cup full of wonderful goals and performances and a world cup that made legends of certain players.

If you want to try and argue that the world cup in 86 was weak on the basis of Belgium making it to the semis then I could go and dig out the records and use such equally questionable logic to justify each and every world cup being poor. In fact by evaluating a world cup on such one off data I could strongly argue for the 1970 world cup being poor, which just shows how ludicrous your logic is.

Pele DID play in a side of absolute stars in 70 and an in comparison to Argentiona 86, arguably superior Brazil side thoughout his career. Maradona played for a limited team that could generally defend but without him had little creativity.

You mention what Pele did at Cosmos. Sorry but beating national teams in friendlies is not what the peak of footballing achievment is about and when talking about the best ever player should not even enter the discussion.

The fact is Pele has done lot of wonderful things that rightfully put his name into the mix when talking about who was the best ever player, as does Best, as does Maradona and others too. We can onbly all offer our own subjective, limited and unprovable viewpoints....there are no objective yardsticks that can be used to differentiate between the best players....we have no legitimate way or saying who is the best in an objective manner.

The fact is despite your dogmatic language there very much is a discussion as to who is the greatest player ever and Maradona and Best and others also enter into that discusion whether you like it or not.

P.S

I am not going to advance the arguments for Pele or Maradona as I believe that Best was the Best.

However I am not so stupid as to think that this is something that can be settled by objectve reasoning or the stroke of a pen anymore than we can list the greatest singers or artists in the world into a definitive ordered list.

When anyone can devise a means to say 100% that Da Vinci is number 2 in the all time list and categorically better than michelangelo who is only 6th etc. Then we can preumably apply the same logical objective reasoning to football and all the arts......of course it will never happen but still :lmao:
 
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i always promise myself not to post in theese kind of threads, as i'm not intersted in rankings and i'm not so excited by the individual aspect of a team sport, as football.......
but for some reason, it looks like i always break this promise.... :lol:

anyway that's just something i'd like to point out.
it's a common mistake to rate maradona's napoli as an average team.
but i know that team very well, and i can guarrantee to u (as anybody in italy, i guess) that that napoli was a great team.
they didn't have a deep roster, their backups weren't on the same level of the starting 11, but their starting formation was awesome.

Giordano, Bagni, Careca, Di napoli, Alemao, Ferrara, Zola, Carnevale......
that was an amazing team, quality, creativity, solidity.
Careca and Giordano were one of the world's best attacks.... and if they would still be playing today... they would still be one of the world best attacks.

those days milan was even stronger than nowadays. that milan was a team full of quality.... but actualy the whole serie a quality level was huuuge those days. u couldn't win 2 scudetti in 3 years (and a 2nd place and a uefa cup) without a top class team. Maradona wouldn't have been enough to win serie a those days.

of course, compared to maradona his teamates didn't look like superstars.... but afterall also platini, zidane, falcao, van basten, rivera, mazzola made look their teammates "average"...... but their teammates were cabrini, del piero, ancelotti, gullit, maldini senior, facchetti..... not exactly average players.

what i mean to say is that some players, like diego, van basten, cruyff, falcao, zico, best, pele, rivera, di stefano, puskas, baggio, zidane, baresi, muller, beckembauer and a few others, were so great that their teamates always looked on a different level... even if they were great players too.

talking about the thread subject we could argue for months about who would really deserve to be named "the best ever" without finding a sharable and agreeable name. most of the players u mentioned played in different eras, their football was different. i mean try to look at pele and maradona. looking at their phisique, it almost seems like they played a different sport. it's impossible to compare them.
moreover many of theese great players played in different roles. so how can we compare them?
how can we compare baresi to zidane, for example? or beckembauer to maradona?
it's impossible to compare a cb to a midfielder who played in the same years, so how can we pretend to compare a cb to a midfielder who played 30 years before than him?

as u can see the title of the thread is "the greatest player ever IMHO" i'd say that "IMHO" it's pretty important, and it was a smart move by vanzandt to put it in the thread title. because we can just say who was the best according to our personal likes, to our limited football knowledge. Just to make an example i honestly can't compare maradona to best or to pelè. because i don't know pele neither best enough to express a deep judjement on them. To truly rate a player u have to see him playing..... seeing some highlights on espn classic just isn't enough. it's not enough to see one match, neither 10, or 20; it's not enough to see that player playing for a whole season. to truly rate a player u have to see him playing for years, 40, 50, 60 matches. now, i saw maradona playing 60 entire matches (probably a lot more :mrgreen:), i saw van basten, platini, zidane, baresi, nesta, maldini, zico, falcao, giannini, gullit, conti, playing 60 matches..... but i can't say the same about best, pelè, beckembauer and many others.

that's why i won't ever say who was the best. coz i can't really know who was the best..... and anyway i don't even think there is "the best". what i can reasonably say is that in tha last 100 years the world witnessed some players, who just were on another level, who deserved to be mentioned in an hypothetical "hall of fame".
 
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Hey Lo Zio :applause:

Exactly.

The whole point is IMHO.....opinions.

There is and never will be any method of objective comparison and reasoning that definitvely says he was 1, he was number 2, that guy was the third best ever etc....it will never happen.

The point is to share what players you are passionate about. Tell the guy next to you he is mad (in a nice way Haha) and show him why with talk about your favourite player, footage maybe........banter.

I believe that George Best was the best player ever. But I know that the apsects of footbal I enjoy most will be different from that of someone else. I know that the type of football has an impact as does the football we have viewed over the years etc. I know that people will disagree and show me how wrong I am Haha...good. Hopefully I'll get to see some nice footage or some good talk about what player they loved and why...

And for people that think I am mental...well they still get to see some great footage of George Best and get to hear me talk crap which everyone must surely enjoy by now :lmao:

P.S

If you are interested in improving your English I strongly recomend that you do NOT go to this site and download anything. Haha

Stanly Unwin

http://www.stanleyunwin.com/audio.htm
 
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Good debate here and it seems there is little to argue about really.

My point was that of course the Napoli team wasn't 'average', but merely that compared to other challengers and to Maradona, it was very unfancied for the title at all.
 
My point was that of course the Napoli team wasn't 'average', but merely that compared to other challengers and to Maradona, it was very unfancied for the title at all.
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may i ask u what "unfancied" means? :) I didn't find anything about this word on my "online dictionary" :)



The point is to share what players you are passionate about.......
....Hopefully I'll get to see some nice footage or some good talk about what player they loved and why.....
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ok then,
well i have to admit i have a favourite player.........


my.php
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Maybe the most precious poster in the world? :mrgreen:\\:o/

anyway it's not just about the player. i mean diego was unbelievable, sure one of the greatest players ever, but for me he was even more than this.

my mother's family is from napoli. we still got a home there and a lot of my relatives live in napoli. i lived there for a while when i was youger and i had the chance to experience what the word "passion" really means.
Italian people are known for their creativity, for their passion for their "artistic sense", but u can't really say what this really means till u go to Napoli.
It's really hard to describe what Napoli and the napoletani are about as there aren't words to describe the napoletani (or maybe there are.... but i don't know them :mrgreen:)
just try to imagine an immense living theatre. a place where everything, looks "surreal", where the people, anybody from the barman to the doctor, from the bricklayer to the lawyer look like an actor. a place where any emotion, even the most little, gets magnified. A huge city with no adult people, just kids, 5 years old kids, 20 years old kids, 50 years old kids, 70 years old kids. No room for reason, no place for moderation. a city of crazy, childish, job haters, artists.
u can take a seat in a bar and see the bar owner paintin a picture of u, while u're drikinig your coffee...... and if u try to ask him "why r u doing it"
he coud reply to u "i don't know, i just want to"...
"but the other customers are still waiting their coffees"...
"who cares!"
(believe me, it really happens :lol:)

oh, wait i just found the appropriate word! bohèmienne!

now they're italians, so of course they live for football (and women). so what happens when u give to theese people Maradona???
the whole city becomes some sort of a white sheet, where people can paint, sing, write, sculpt (litterally) their love for their new god.
u could see a street full tombs painted with milan, juve, inter roma colors (with some girls crying on them like they were sad widows :lol:)
u could see some of the most precious napoli's monuments "desecrated" by some crazy fans, u could see an entire city full of huge funniest, hilarious murales, u could see this big theathre becoming "azzurro".

gennarmvv9.jpg


carroup4.jpg


napoli3pp6.jpg


gennarozz7.jpg


maradplaxo4.jpg


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now, place a 10 years old kid in this crazy metropolis.... and u got .... me :mrgreen:

but actually it's even more than this. my uncle was S.S.C. Napoli director from 85 to 96. so i had the chance to know my idols, to eat with them, to play with them, to do what every kid (and man too) in napoli would die for..... play football with maradona, bagni, alemao and my cousin in napoli's clubhouse.

so know u'll understand why maradona is really something special for me :)

wait, i just found a nice site that could give u an idea of the tie between napoli and maradona

http://www.vivadiego.com/indexeng.html
 
steevio_uk said:
did and also in a much stronger league than what Pele did.
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Now what you know about brazilian league back there!!!

There were loads of world classsssss players.
And magical teams too.
Was a pure technical football even the CBs were classy!
Of course the pace wasn't the same.

That's why I think this comparsions doesnt work.
Each time had his King and lots o Princes if you know what I mean.
 
sauce said:
Now what you know about brazilian league back there!!!

There were loads of world classsssss players.
And magical teams too.
Was a pure technical football even the CBs were classy!
Of course the pace wasn't the same.

That's why I think this comparsions doesnt work.
Each time had his King and lots o Princes if you know what I mean.
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You reckon he would have scored 1,000 goals if he played in Italy, Spain or England?

Thought not.
 
steevio_uk said:
You reckon he would have scored 1,000 goals if he played in Italy, Spain or England?

Thought not.
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If Santos team were with him :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

And If Italy, Spain and England leagues are stronger give back our players.

BTW Pele didnt won or scored in any WC right? Didnt scored in a final with 17 years old?

Trust Brazilian league was TOP back there!
 
steevio_uk said:
Unfancied, as in not really a favourite for the title and not a fashionable team.
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i see, thanks Steevio ;) :)

well napoli wasn't the first favourite for the title those days, as Milan was a great team too, but napoli (with juve) was just 1 step behind milan. is a little like today, with inter being the favourite for the title, but with roma just one little step behind them.
and about that napoli not being fashionable, sorry mate, but i have to disagree. i mean, if by "fashionable" u mean "good looking" or attractive football playing", well, that team was one of the most fashionable teams in europe in the last 20 years :)

anyway, sorry for the little off topic guys :mrgreen:
 
Thanks for the clarification mate... phew!! :lol:

Is it just your opinion Lo zio, or were Napoli that good then?
I mean were they really 2nd favourites behind Milan or are you looking back with fonder memories?;)

(And, importantly, we are talking about how they were before Maradona really changed their fortunes)
 
On the Napoli question. Didn't Careca, Alemao etc join Napoli a couple of years after Maradona? Wasn't it a case of Napoli getting Maradona and because they had him managing to get Careca and other which altered their fortunes?

If so and Maradona was the key then I presume they were not considered a title contender prior to the arival of Maradona and the players that flowed to the club after him?

I think that might be where Steevio is going with this, though he would have to say that is the case.

As for Pele;

I don't think there is much point in arguing over whether Pele had equal competition in Brazil as he would have in the English, Spanish or Italian league etc. I say that because we all know his ability from successive world cups. Pele is obviously a legend and one of the best players ever and in such a subjective question of who is the best sits alongside Maradona and Best etc. Maybe I am missing the point though so i'll leave saying anything more...I guess arguing over the league is banter afterall and worthwhile...full circle analysis Hehe.

a season and having a major impact?
 
I agree vanzandt.
My mentioning of Pele and the league he played in aswell as the plethora of outstanding players he played alongside, was a point against Gerd when he said 'Pele,- no discussion'.

Not that I am pedantic or anything :lol:
 
Well when i said "no discussion" that's because in funny but completely unimportant discussions you have to say that there is only one truth...yours (well as a matter of fact, mine...).

of course Pele, Maradonna and Best all were fantastic...






but Pele ah come one...
 
dailly_christian_whfc_profile_2005.jpg
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"Oooohhh Christian Dailly, you are the love of my life
Oh Christian Dailly, i'll let you shag my wife
Oh christian Dailly... I want curly hair toooooooo!!!"
 
Is it just your opinion Lo zio, or were Napoli that good then?
I mean were they really 2nd favourites behind Milan or are you looking back with fonder memories?
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no, mate, it's not just my opinion :). it's a fact, a statement shared by anybody who followed serie a those days. From '87 to 90 napoli's starting eleven, milan starting eleven and juve starting eleven were on the same level. but milan had better backups and a deeper roster.


(And, importantly, we are talking about how they were before Maradona really changed their fortunes)
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actually i'm talking about the period from '87 to 91, maradona period. before maradona, Napoli was a very good team, with a lot of talent, but it wasn't on the same level of juve and milan...
infact from '81 to '86 they just reached a 3rd place (twice) and a 4th place (once).

On the Napoli question. Didn't Careca, Alemao etc join Napoli a couple of years after Maradona? Wasn't it a case of Napoli getting Maradona and because they had him managing to get Careca and other which altered their fortunes?

If so and Maradona was the key then I presume they were not considered a title contender prior to the arival of Maradona and the players that flowed to the club after him?
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exactly, both of your statements are right, Vanzandt. they had some very good players from '80 to '90, but nobody on the same level of careca, alemao or giordano. they all came from '87 to '90 and i guess u're right about considering maradona a big factor in persuading so many great players to join napoli.
after the maradona arrival napoli became a very attractive club for those kind of stars. Also Ferlaino (napoli owner) changed his approach to the calciomercato; before maradona he was a penny-wise buyer.... but of course, once u get maradona, u have to build up a team of players worthy to play with him. so he started offering higher wages, making higher bids for the players, looking for great stars (not anymore young talented players).... and also those stars were more attracted by napoli. from '80 to '86 napoli was just a pretty good team, in a great city, with great fans...
from '87 on napoli became a great team, in a great city, with great fans.... but also with a lavish president and with maradona (2 very big factors :mrgreen:).
 
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gerd said:
Well when i said "no discussion" that's because in funny but completely unimportant discussions you have to say that there is only one truth...yours (well as a matter of fact, mine...).
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I will give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that translation os the problem gerd because I just can't see how you could mean that the only truth was your own opinion:lmao:

I presume you mean that it is subjective and you are stating your belief....if that is the case then all is well :)

Steevio how on earth can you mention Christian Daily in the same breath as Best, Maradona and Pele though?
 
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steevio_uk said:
Simply put; he is a football genius.
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Oh shitcakes....I hoped to lure you in, but I cannot hold the pretence beyond the initial mail. It's simply not credible that you would thought I believed you....

Daily makes Pele look total turd and we ALL know this is a TRUISM :---)
 
Never try to bullshit a complete bullshit speaker hahah ;)
You are right about Pele/Dailly though.

If Pele was soo good, how comes he never played for Scotland and Dailly did, huh?
 
matherto said:
Well, even Pele said Best was the best. So thats gotta count for something. Shame he was Northern Irish, otherwise he would've lit up the world stage.
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If you're catholic and from Northern Ireland you tend to think of yourself as simply Irish. If you're a protesant and from Northern Ireland you tend to think of yourself as British. Not sure anyone calls themselves northern Irish. At least no one called themsleves Northern irish when I lived there. My dad regards himself as British who is from Northern Ireland and lived their for thirty years would never refer to himself as Northern Irish....

The pointless wordage/identity issues aside;

I don't think the people of Northern Ireland think it was a shame that he was one of them and whilst I can see where you are coming from, I mean it was a shame that he never played in a world cup....i obviously can't agree with the point you make.

It was no more of a shame that Best was from Northern Ireland than it was that Pele was from Brazil. A shame he didn't play on the international stage at major competitions though for sure.
 
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