The Evo-Web Football Thoughts Blog

[Flipper the Priest]

In the Europa League, they're both qualified,should be ranked about the same.
Just winder whether uefa woul take that draw with ease,

In my mind there's two sets of clubs who pretty much plays the victims left and right in this.
Always the other side's fault,never facing up to what they do themselves,and add religion to that...
Infectious shit brother!

In one of our derbies ,we have two aik and djurgarden (aik is pretty much both Celtic and rangers combined here,the federations team etc) we got 3 games in an empty stadium plus a 3 point reduction when things got out of hands Vs djurgarden.
Were the only team who has got that here,wouldn't happen to aik of course...

Ah. Well I'm certain they'd be kept apart in the group stage by UEFA rules and I think after that it could happen by chance. If UEFA were to punish clubs relative to the crime then the second leg would have to be played on the moon such is the fans' behaviour when they play each other. As they do this weekend. Popcorn at the ready.

The victim culture is something that's been associated with Celtic for a long time and now, rapidly increasingly so, Rangers. And, as you say, little interest in accountability. I saw it first hand on Saturday in the pub when speaking about the UEFA sanction with a Rangers fan. He couldn't say more than two sentences without mentioning Celtic. Time and time again I had to remind him that it's not about them, and time and time again it was part of his defence.

Religious history obviously plays a big part but for a long time that's carried by the football clubs and not the church. The football keeps the history alive. Another defence by both clubs - particularly around religious and politically-motivated singing - is that it's part of their culture and heritage. Well, that can change...

Found a couple of interesting articles contrasting the approach of the two football associations. I like how Sweden has decided to do something, as opposed to nothing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37547997

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-record/20190305/283055530715091

 

[rockstrongo]

Ah. Well I'm certain they'd be kept apart in the group stage by UEFA rules and I think after that it could happen by chance. If UEFA were to punish clubs relative to the crime then the second leg would have to be played on the moon such is the fans' behaviour when they play each other. As they do this weekend. Popcorn at the ready.

The victim culture is something that's been associated with Celtic for a long time and now, rapidly increasingly so, Rangers. And, as you say, little interest in accountability. I saw it first hand on Saturday in the pub when speaking about the UEFA sanction with a Rangers fan. He couldn't say more than two sentences without mentioning Celtic. Time and time again I had to remind him that it's not about them, and time and time again it was part of his defence.

Religious history obviously plays a big part but for a long time that's carried by the football clubs and not the church. The football keeps the history alive. Another defence by both clubs - particularly around religious and politically-motivated singing - is that it's part of their culture and heritage. Well, that can change...

Found a couple of interesting articles contrasting the approach of the two football associations. I like how Sweden has decided to do something, as opposed to nothing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37547997

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-record/20190305/283055530715091

Good points on the Celtic v Rangers.
I would say we've had a good dialogue with SEF (Swedish Elite football league "owners") for quite a long time,they're easy to access,had a long discussion with their boss a few months back.
The police demanded that the standing would be reduced,and that clubs would pay for the policing, obviously that would hit the smaller clubs hard,and they know that,so they put pressure on them so they put pressure back in us.

The thing is,Swedish supporter culture is a large movements and quite trouble free,but what the police are after is the pyro (flares) their forbidden,and the only way to get us to stop using them is to try to get us with something else (increased cost of policing)

They even fabricated their own evidence regarding that flairs are toxic,claiming that they've done test themselves,and also ordering a test made by the European supporters Union.
Here's the kicker mate,The European supporters Union responded with,A it's not toxic and B the police hasn't ordered any test from them,and we're wondering why they were lying.

So that our relationship with the police over here ,quite destructive.
When it all broke lose (the police lying etc) we had full backup from SEF.
What the police are doing is trying to catch people burning flairs,which is fineable offense,like trying to catch people riding bicycles without a helmet,with a SWAT team.
Insane behaviour from them really

 

[Stan]

THe biggest football club ever?​

How often don’t you hear players saying that the club they joined, has always been the club of their dreams? There are even players that claim that every club they join was their childhood favourite clubs. Eden Hazard left Chelsea for Real Madrid, because as a child he was a Real Madrid (and Arsenal) fan. There are lots of players who make the same claim. Is Real Madrid the biggest football club in the world? Looking at their trophy cabinet, it’s very hard to disagree. But i personally do disagree rather strongly.

To be honest, i don’t like Real Madrid, because i have this weird trait that i dislike perennial winners. But that is not the only reason. Real Madrid became the nig club they are because they attracted the best player in the world in the 1950’s: Alfredo Di Stefano. That transfer was a hold-up. Di Stefano was destined to go to Barcelona, but generalissimo Franco, the Spanish dictator decided otherwise and DI Stefano went to Real Madrid. The fact that the club was supported and favoured by a vicious dictator and even more recently has got some (illegal) support from the communidad de Madrid disqualifies them for me as biggest club ever. Of course that is only my totally biased opinion.

But perhaps there is a more objective way to look at things. A few years ago football magazine FourFourTwo made a ranking of the biggest football clubs ever and came to the same conclusion as me. So perhaps my opinion is that outlandish after all.

AJAX

To me there is no doubt whatsoever. Ajax is the biggest football club in the world ever. Is it because of their trophy’s? Not really. To me Ajax is the club with the biggest legacy or influence in the world.

Until the ‘60’s Ajax was a very ordinary club that wasn’t even the biggest Dutch club. And then somethin happened. Totaal voetbal. Visionary coach Rinus Michel had the luck to have an outstanding crop of players at his disposal: Jaak Swart (later Johnny Rep), Piet Keizer, Ruud Krol, Arie Haan, Gerrie Muhren (my personal favourite, the keeppie ups at Benrabeu for example), Johan Neeskens and of course Holland’s best player ever Johan Cruijff. This was a generation of exceptional players who had also very outspoken and strong opinions on the way football should be played. At the beginning of the ‘70’s this team won 4 ‘Champions Leaugues’ (it was called EC I by that time) in a row and then the players went to other clubs to earn lots of money. Michels, Cruijff and Neeskens went to Barcelona and El Salvador Cruijff won the title for Barcelona for the first time in a long time.

Later Michels became the coach of the Dutch team that played fantastic football at the 1974 WC but that was beaten after a seks scandal that never happened. That team (the best of Ajax combined with Feyenoord, PSV and Anderlecht) was beaten by Beckenbauer’s West-Germany, but they were already beaten by the German tabloïd Bild and by their wives before one ball in that final was kicked. Cruijff would stay home for the next World Cup in Argentina. The official reason was a dispute about shoe sponsors and money, but the real reason was Dani, his wife. Dani never really believed that Johan and his team mates did in fact not swim naked with young girls in their hotel swimming pool in 1974 and she said she would leave Johan it went to Argentina. Robbie Rensenbrink was the star of the team that once again lost the final against the organizing nation.
But let’s focus on Ajax again. That 60’s and early 70’s team left a legacy that shaped modern football. First off all there was the Ajax youth system. Their academy was a real conveyor belt of outstanding football talent, with dozens of future stars. Nowadays the academy is knowsn as De Toekomst (The Future, what a great name). It produced players like Van Basten, Vanenburg, Rijkaard, Bergkamp, father and son Kluivert, the brothers De Boer, Danny and his son Daley Blind, Davids, Arnold Muhren, Huntelaar, Frenkie De Jong and de Ligt. They are all Dutch players but also attracted very young foreign players that they developed into stars: Jari Litmanen (imo the one who came closest to Cruijff, very underestimated), Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Vermaelen, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Kanu, Finidi George, Moussa Dembele and others. Everybody who reads this article will be able to add players that i have forgotten to mention.

But the leagcy is much bigger than ‘merely’ developing fantastic players. Barcelone took over the idea of building an academy and other clubs did the same. Ajax was the first club to embrace this model.

Ajax is also a club with a very recognizable playing system that is played by all the youth teams and the first team. Every single Ajax team from the five year olds to the team that played CL semi-final plays 4-3-3 and this is still the same (but perfected) style of Totaal Voetbal. Barcelone took over this style of football and countless other bog teams did the same. Without Ajax, the Arsenal invincables would never have been. Wenger himself was the first to admit that Ajax, Cruijff and Barcelona had a major influence on all he did. Pep Guardiola’s teams at Barcelona, Munchen and Manchester City have all embraced Ajax’ philosophy.

Is there another club that has the same legay as Ajax? Arigo Sacchi’s AC Milan team might come close, but they might also be influenced by Ajax’s playing system and philosophy and two of their star players (Van Basten and Rijkaard) are Ajax youth products.

Ajax really deserve more credit. I hope they can win another CL to add to their 4 previous ones.

 

[jihado86]

it's 2019 and there are people who still believe the Franco non-sense.

 

[Stan]

Just read a phenomenal interview with Toby Alderweireld in Belgian magazine Knack. I will translate some excerpts because it sheds a different ligth on professional football players. This interview was taken just after the 2-7 match against Bayern Munchen in the CL.

Courtesy of Knack number 43 -2019 page 104 - 107.

"Lots of people want to be a professional football player because they think that then they will enjoy life more. I often have the opposite feeling, i'm convinced that people with an 'ordinary' life enjoy life more than i do. I'm gratefully to be a professional football player because football brought me to places where i would never have been otherwise, but i want to show theo other side of being a professional football player."

When he was 15 years old he left Antwerp for Amsterdam, for Ajax' youth academy (strange that i post this on the same day as the Ajax article above).

"Initially i was over the moon because i could play for this massive club. But i t turned out that once i was living in Amsterdam, i became homesick. As a 15 year old you step on your own on a train to Amsterdam and you realize that you will be on your own for the next years. It scared the hell out of me. I had to go to a school in the Bijlmer (a very rough neigbourhood) and i hardly had the courage to talk to other people. The first sentence i uttered was with a Flemish accent and the guy i talked to, started laughing. At that moment my whole body screamed: "I don't want this, i want to go home." I felt lost in Amsterdam and it never really changed, it got a litle bit better but basically i hated it. It was not Amsterdam, it was me. Jan Vertonghen and Thomas Vermaelen had a similar carreer and they really loved Amsterdam.

"Ajax is a fantastic club, but i would never again move to Amsterdam as a 15 year old. I'm convinced i would have reached the top level following another path too."

"Since i was 10 years old, it occurred that i was talented an everything had to give in for football. You ahrdly see your friends anymore and that hurts. My brother was my best friend, when we were young we did everything together. From one day to another i was gone, out of his life. He suffered because of it, i feel guilty about that."

"I never did it to become famous, i don't care about acknowledgement. I still remeber something Jim Carey said: "Everybody should become rich and famous in order to realize that it all means nothing."

"I can never relax in my head. When i'm on holiday i'm thinking about next season, next season should be better. I can't drink or eat what i want because i can't put on weight, that is not acceptable for me as a professional football player at top level."

"At top level football, your team mates are your rivals. There isnb't much pity or compassion for players who underperform or have a bad patch. There are only 11 players on the pitch and at the end of the day, it's each for himself. That has hampered me now and then. I'm a team player and i want to be friends with everybody.

"Social media have made football more bleak".

His Twitter account is run by a PR-company, why?

"Fans expect you to communicate right after matches, i can't do that. The problem with football is that for some people football is totally dominating their life. They loose perspective. Imagine that i mess up and my team looses because of that. I can assure you that it hurts me enormously. It is possible that i feel depressive for 3 hours. You can't tweet that, because it will be used against you. Imagine now that after being depressive for those 3 hours, i decide to game on the Playstation to loosen up and that i decide to publish a picture of that. People will not understand and will send me messages that i have some nerve to game after i have done something stupid on the pitch...In order to avoid situations like that, i use a PR-company for my Twitter account."

About transfers:

"People have the wrong impression about transfers. Most transfers are a spur of the moment decision. They just happen.

About friends in football:

"Do i have friends in football? More or less, yes. At the level where i'm playing it becomes a business, every player is company. WIth Jan (Vertonghen) it is different. He is a real friend we've been through a lot together (they played more than 300 matches together). Jan and i , we help each other through a match. Perhaps that is the reason why managers want us together in teams."

About Spurs bad patch:

"I don't know what is wrong. We lost a few times narrowly, you slowly loose confidence...bad luck, brings more bad luck, every football player is well aware of that. Barely 4 months ago we played the final of the CL, it is not possible that suddenly Spurs can't play football anymore."

Alderweireld had a chance to equalise in the WC semi-final against France, but Hugo Lloris had a good save to deny him. The journalist asks him if they have talked about it afterwards.

"It may seem weird, but we never talked about it afterwards. For me it felt inappropriate. It was his moment, his big success, it would be inappropriate to talk about how i felt. I n the end i decided to let it go and don't talk about it with him."

About that third place in the WC:

"People in Brussels where over the moon, but for us it was failure".

This interview should be translated integrally in English (and a better translation than mine). Very interesting and moving. Alderweireld also wants to set up a charity for childeren that are bullied. Interesting guy.

 

[Stan]

it's 2019 and there are people who still believe the Franco non-sense.

Is that the only reaction you have?
I wasn't writing about Real Madrid, i was writing about Ajax.

Santiago Bernabeu had close links with Franco. Just do an unbiased research and you will find plenty of evidence about the links Real Madrid had with Franco and how Franco used Real Madrid for propaganda purposes.

 

[jihado86]

Is that the only reaction you have?
I wasn't writing about Real Madrid, i was writing about Ajax.

Santiago Bernabeu had close links with Franco. Just do an unbiased research and you will find plenty of evidence about the links Real Madrid had with Franco and how Franco used Real Madrid for propaganda purposes.

I did all the researches a decade ago and it's all lies based on fallacies.

 

[PRO_TOO]

Just read a phenomenal interview with Toby Alderweireld in Belgian magazine Knack. I will translate some excerpts because it sheds a different ligth on professional football players. This interview was taken just after the 2-7 match against Bayern Munchen in the CL.

Courtesy of Knack number 43 -2019 page 104 - 107.

"Lots of people want to be a professional football player because they think that then they will enjoy life more. I often have the opposite feeling, i'm convinced that people with an 'ordinary' life enjoy life more than i do. I'm gratefully to be a professional football player because football brought me to places where i would never have been otherwise, but i want to show theo other side of being a professional football player."

When he was 15 years old he left Antwerp for Amsterdam, for Ajax' youth academy (strange that i post this on the same day as the Ajax article above).

"Initially i was over the moon because i could play for this massive club. But i t turned out that once i was living in Amsterdam, i became homesick. As a 15 year old you step on your own on a train to Amsterdam and you realize that you will be on your own for the next years. It scared the hell out of me. I had to go to a school in the Bijlmer (a very rough neigbourhood) and i hardly had the courage to talk to other people. The first sentence i uttered was with a Flemish accent and the guy i talked to, started laughing. At that moment my whole body screamed: "I don't want this, i want to go home." I felt lost in Amsterdam and it never really changed, it got a litle bit better but basically i hated it. It was not Amsterdam, it was me. Jan Vertonghen and Thomas Vermaelen had a similar carreer and they really loved Amsterdam.

"Ajax is a fantastic club, but i would never again move to Amsterdam as a 15 year old. I'm convinced i would have reached the top level following another path too."

"Since i was 10 years old, it occurred that i was talented an everything had to give in for football. You ahrdly see your friends anymore and that hurts. My brother was my best friend, when we were young we did everything together. From one day to another i was gone, out of his life. He suffered because of it, i feel guilty about that."

"I never did it to become famous, i don't care about acknowledgement. I still remeber something Jim Carey said: "Everybody should become rich and famous in order to realize that it all means nothing."

"I can never relax in my head. When i'm on holiday i'm thinking about next season, next season should be better. I can't drink or eat what i want because i can't put on weight, that is not acceptable for me as a professional football player at top level."

"At top level football, your team mates are your rivals. There isnb't much pity or compassion for players who underperform or have a bad patch. There are only 11 players on the pitch and at the end of the day, it's each for himself. That has hampered me now and then. I'm a team player and i want to be friends with everybody.

"Social media have made football more bleak".

His Twitter account is run by a PR-company, why?

"Fans expect you to communicate right after matches, i can't do that. The problem with football is that for some people football is totally dominating their life. They loose perspective. Imagine that i mess up and my team looses because of that. I can assure you that it hurts me enormously. It is possible that i feel depressive for 3 hours. You can't tweet that, because it will be used against you. Imagine now that after being depressive for those 3 hours, i decide to game on the Playstation to loosen up and that i decide to publish a picture of that. People will not understand and will send me messages that i have some nerve to game after i have done something stupid on the pitch...In order to avoid situations like that, i use a PR-company for my Twitter account."

About transfers:

"People have the wrong impression about transfers. Most transfers are a spur of the moment decision. They just happen.

About friends in football:

"Do i have friends in football? More or less, yes. At the level where i'm playing it becomes a business, every player is company. WIth Jan (Vertonghen) it is different. He is a real friend we've been through a lot together (they played more than 300 matches together). Jan and i , we help each other through a match. Perhaps that is the reason why managers want us together in teams."

About Spurs bad patch:

"I don't know what is wrong. We lost a few times narrowly, you slowly loose confidence...bad luck, brings more bad luck, every football player is well aware of that. Barely 4 months ago we played the final of the CL, it is not possible that suddenly Spurs can't play football anymore."

Alderweireld had a chance to equalise in the WC semi-final against France, but Hugo Lloris had a good save to deny him. The journalist asks him if they have talked about it afterwards.

"It may seem weird, but we never talked about it afterwards. For me it felt inappropriate. It was his moment, his big success, it would be inappropriate to talk about how i felt. I n the end i decided to let it go and don't talk about it with him."

About that third place in the WC:

"People in Brussels where over the moon, but for us it was failure".

This interview should be translated integrally in English (and a better translation than mine). Very interesting and moving. Alderweireld also wants to set up a charity for childeren that are bullied. Interesting guy.

I thank you so much for taking the time to translate that!!
Me, being a romantic football fan, not liking how this whole “business” is evolving... I like to read those “heart warming” stories.
It reminds me, and I love that, how it all started and money wasn’t the main thing. Football was!!

Maybe I’m kinda lost today, in this football world we have right now, but those stories (the one you translated) and my own memories and experiences hold me down. Keep me grounded. And i never wanna loose that feeling...!!! I want to be a regular football fan. For the sport itself (and what it brings with it) and not for the business monster it has become!!

Wish I could get that out more detailed. But you get me.

Edit: if only I could give more than one like!!! Man!! Thank you again!!!

 

[PRO_TOO]

Happy New Year, you evo-webbies...!

Still in recovery mode from last night, I’m happy there is nothing to do today but relaxing.

Some football on tv and some meaty dinner later. Sounds like a plan without being one.

What fixtures are you having in focus for today?

...20 min. to go.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

"The Barcelona Way".

 

[superleeds1]

"The Barcelona Way".

Can't believe it, Setien is in the departure lounge surely.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Stunning. Only Germany 7-1 Brazil compares for sheer whatthefuckery in my lifetime.

 

[PESMaster01]

No words for this humiliation.

 

[Calvin]

I thought I can't make it to work this afternoon. After the game, I just sit, smoke a cigarette and my in head...everything just blank. Like...damnnnn

 

[Flipper the Priest]

As a neutral I prefer this Champions League format. Central venue, quick fire, one-off games. Real summer tournament vibe and I'd like that to continue.

It'd be a shame to take it away from real, local fans but they stopped mattering a long, long time ago. That is wrong, but it's not going to be right any time soon.

Of course, this enforced model isn't as profitable and won't continue.

 

[fd1972uk]

Yeah I like the one off game too.

Only problem I see is the travel involved.,but the one off games are far better. Gate money for teams is also an issue especially for the smaller teams who would make the knockout stages, losing home gate receipts.


FD

 

[Stan]

I also like it. But it advantages clubs like PSG, clubs with lots of star players who are not a real team. With be and away matches, PSG never reaches the final.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

https://news.sky.com/story/premier-...f-english-football-in-major-shake-up-12101628

Wow. Maybe more pertinent to the EPL thread but this is about Big Football. Staggering proposals.

 

[Chris Davies]

https://news.sky.com/story/premier-...f-english-football-in-major-shake-up-12101628

Wow. Maybe more pertinent to the EPL thread but this is about Big Football. Staggering proposals.

Abhorrent from start to finish. Wow.

 

[mattmid]

@Flipper the Priest Just about sums the 'big' clubs up. They seem to forget that more people go to watch football teams outside of the Premier League than in it. When football ceases to be this 'in' thing when those with a cursory interest at best because it's cool to like 'footy' find something else to tag on to then they'll have a rude awakening. Those clubs have been angling for this ever since setting up the Premier League in the first place, which of course as we all know is when football was invented.

 

[Stan]

Of course there are evident self-servicing elements in all this.
But i also see that they propose 250 million immediate help and in the future 25% of the television money will go to the EFL.
Do they have another choice than to accept this.
IMO there are way too much professional clubs in England and Scotland.
We have 24 professional clubs here In Belgium and that is also too much.

I have a friend who studies geography and Economics and he made a PHD thesis about sustainable football clubs. It was a staggering read.
First of all to be sustainable there can't be any other clubs in area of around 50 km's from one club. Perhaps in a city like London there could be more, but even in Brussels 2 professional clubs are not viable.

Secondly and morst important, if i read the PHD thesis it was staggering how amateuristic these clubs are run. They have a big money turnover, yet the way they are run is shocking, they barely have any long term vision and their longer term planning mostly depends on wishful thinking (if we promote, then...).

From what i've read about EFl clubs, there is barely any difference with the situation here in Belgium. Most of those clubs have to take a look at themselves...

Like always, the fans are the big victims. I'm convinced that those football clubs are very important for the local community and that is a reason that their should come a decent proper and fit test for owners of football clubs and that fans should own 51% of every football club.

Germany is the best model.

 

[mattmid]

They have a big money turnover, yet the way they are run is shocking, they barely have any long term vision and their longer term planning mostly depends on wishful thinking (if we promote, then...).

Most football clubs appear to be appallingly run. What kind of business model is it to pay out most of your turnover to your staff(players)!

But i also see that they propose 250 million immediate help and in the future 25% of the television money will go to the EFL.

I guarantee you the plan behind this is once they have just 9 clubs able to vote to change the rules and only 6 needing to approve it then they will vote in tv deals done by club rather than the league. Therefore these 'big' clubs won't care about the 25% to the EFL because they'll be getting the lions share anyway and more than they are now so the 25% won't make a difference to them.

 

[Stan]

The way football clubs behave throughout the pandemic say's enough, football is driven by extreme greed. Even the FA's are driven by greed, look at the useless international friendlies like England-Wales and Belgium-Ivory Coast. The players of the national team were furious with our FA for programming that match against Ivory Cost. KDB spoke up and said: "They don't listen to the players".

Do you know how much profit Pedro Mendes made in the last transfer window? 20 million punds.

There is need in football for a mechanism that redivides the wealth, because footabll as a whole generates more than enough money. Perhaps the players should also think about their salaries and start a fund for solidarity with grass roots football. They should understand that the super big clubs need the whole pyramid of football.

IMO Covid will stimulate a super league even more, in a dog eat dog world. But those huge clubs need the litle ones as feeder clubs. The professional club that is close to where i live is Jupiler League club KV Mechelen. Last year they had a promising left back, Isaa Kaboré. He barely played 5 matches in the first team and was bought my Manchester City and loaned back to Mechelen. I'm guessing that Mechelen must have dozens of players like Kaboré. The more promising players clubs like City contract, the bigger the chance they find the new Messi or a very, very good player. It is like industrail fishing. Mechelen has a second promising player. Aster Vranckx is a 17 year old midfielder (famous for a clip that most have seen a couple of weeks ago, when missed before an open goal, more or less stumbling over the ball- the match after that he scored twice) who is followed by all the big clubs but wants to stay another 3 years in Mechelen and doesn't want to leave Mechelen for a mega club where he will be loaned out and never play for them.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Unfortunately, those who can stop (let alone reverse) the trend are programmed the same way. They'd get in on the racket sooner than they'd oppose it. All football's doing is mirroring wider society.

If - in this fast-moving disastrous era - we in the UK can forget and forgive (barely even question) the PPE contract scandal, we'll sure as hell allow these latest Premier League proposals to happen.

 

[mattmid]

Do you know how much profit Pedro Mendes made in the last transfer window? 20 million punds.

This is another thing I just don't understand (other than I guess it is essentially bribe money to get the player to sign).

In what other industry would you go to your boss, or potential boss, to discuss the wage offer. You sit down with your 'agent' and tell them that he will be negotiating for you and oh by the way you are paying him to do so! They'd tell you to get lost.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

https://news.sky.com/story/premier-...f-english-football-in-major-shake-up-12101628

Wow. Maybe more pertinent to the EPL thread but this is about Big Football. Staggering proposals.

Now that you've just cleaned up your spew from that, this.

I kinda wish they just did it. It's going to happen having been on the cards for years. Those who are trying to make it happen stopped caring about regular fans years and years ago, those who can stop it are in fact more likely to enable it - just get on with it.

I simply don't believe that deep down there's the long-term demand for it. I can't speak for the global audience but all I'm exposed to is an increasing indifference to the Champions League for being repetitive as it is now.

The truncated end to last season's competitions said less is more.

 

[Stan]

Football is more and more about greed. There is a disgustingly phenomenal amount of money involved in all this and so it's very likely that this superleague will effectively be a reality sooner or later.
The people and clubs involved don't care about the fans and don't care about football.
I wouldn't mind so much if it was a NBA-like system. The NBA more or less insures equal opportunities in the long term. What those mega clubs want is a dog eat dog league. If there was a salary cap and a draft system were the weakest teams get the first picks it would be more or less ok for me (not that i'm a big fan of it, but it will happen eventually).
I'm Belgian and of course there will be no Belgian club in it. There will be scarcely any Belgian players in it (De Bruyne, Hazard and Courtois, the big stars but that will be all i guess).
I have always seen football as an OPEN pyramid system. The ideal scenario for me is the Leicester scenario (even if that one team as a Spurs fan i enjoyed it less than i normally would, because that was the unique opportunity for Spurs to win the EPL, they will never have another one). The Leicester scenario will be absolutely impossible in that system.
I hate the player's agents, but they might turn out to be the only 'force' to stop this scenario. I could well be wrong but in this scenario it seems to me that there is less money to earn for the players' agents unless the clubs make deals with the biggest agents like Mendes and Raola and they have exclusive rights for transfers to the superleague (imagine that).

Off-topic now, about the agents.
Something very weird is happening here in Belgium. KDB's agent is De Coster and this since he was playing for Genk. In summer the Belgian justice arrested De Coster and Frenay (anotheragent involved in transfers of KDB). It transpired that KDB himself filed a complaint against his agents because they appropriated money to themselves that was meant to go to KDB. Weird story.

 

[mattmid]

@Flipper the Priest I'm of the same mind. Let them all bugger off.

Football is more and more about greed. There is a disgustingly phenomenal amount of money involved in all this and so it's very likely that this superleague will effectively be a reality sooner or later

There is something fundamentally wrong when clubs are going out of business when a single player in the Premier league can be earning enough in a couple of weeks that would keep the club afloat. Having said that lower league clubs are also run abysmally for the most part. It's mind boggling really, it's quite simple, stop playing the players so much! This is the problem because the inflated wages at the top have inflated them all the way down, especially with the Championship owners largely in a mad frenzy of overspending in a bid to reach the promised land of the Premier League.

They are trying to introduce a wage cap in Lge 1 and 2 in England (and tried to in the Championship but the clubs voted against it) It is currently in place for this season but the PFA are not happy about it and it is also a bit simplistic in that it's the same figure for everyone (2.5m per yr wage cap for Lge 1, 1.5m for Lge 2) which means those clubs with very little income could still overspend so it doesn't really address the problem. I had to laugh when the clubs said this will mean an average wage of only(!) £1800 per week. £93k a year to play third tier football? Crazy.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Football is more and more about greed. There is a disgustingly phenomenal amount of money involved in all this and so it's very likely that this superleague will effectively be a reality sooner or later.
The people and clubs involved don't care about the fans and don't care about football.
I wouldn't mind so much if it was a NBA-like system. The NBA more or less insures equal opportunities in the long term. What those mega clubs want is a dog eat dog league. If there was a salary cap and a draft system were the weakest teams get the first picks it would be more or less ok for me (not that i'm a big fan of it, but it will happen eventually).
I'm Belgian and of course there will be no Belgian club in it. There will be scarcely any Belgian players in it (De Bruyne, Hazard and Courtois, the big stars but that will be all i guess).
I have always seen football as an OPEN pyramid system. The ideal scenario for me is the Leicester scenario (even if that one team as a Spurs fan i enjoyed it less than i normally would, because that was the unique opportunity for Spurs to win the EPL, they will never have another one). The Leicester scenario will be absolutely impossible in that system.
I hate the player's agents, but they might turn out to be the only 'force' to stop this scenario. I could well be wrong but in this scenario it seems to me that there is less money to earn for the players' agents unless the clubs make deals with the biggest agents like Mendes and Raola and they have exclusive rights for transfers to the superleague (imagine that).

Off-topic now, about the agents.
Something very weird is happening here in Belgium. KDB's agent is De Coster and this since he was playing for Genk. In summer the Belgian justice arrested De Coster and Frenay (anotheragent involved in transfers of KDB). It transpired that KDB himself filed a complaint against his agents because they appropriated money to themselves that was meant to go to KDB. Weird story.

The NBA came to mind to me yesterday when I reading about it. Closed shop American sports leagues in general. As a fan of meritocracy I don't like the notion but if it is going to happen, how about some concessions?

A draft system would be hard to implement but how about a limit on squad sizes? Stockpiling is an issue among elite clubs. Swollen first, second and youth squads. I just checked and Chelsea have 32 players out on loan. Van Dijk is injured and there's talk of Liverpool going out and buying top talent to replace him. I'm sure there are some instances where the fees some small clubs receive from the big clubs for their latest academy filler keeps them alive. But I would imagine that's the minority, and the bigger issue is that smaller clubs are denied talent that could help them on the pitch, rather than 'rotting in the reserves' at a big club.

@Flipper the Priest I'm of the same mind. Let them all bugger off.



There is something fundamentally wrong when clubs are going out of business when a single player in the Premier league can be earning enough in a couple of weeks that would keep the club afloat. Having said that lower league clubs are also run abysmally for the most part. It's mind boggling really, it's quite simple, stop playing the players so much! This is the problem because the inflated wages at the top have inflated them all the way down, especially with the Championship owners largely in a mad frenzy of overspending in a bid to reach the promised land of the Premier League.

They are trying to introduce a wage cap in Lge 1 and 2 in England (and tried to in the Championship but the clubs voted against it) It is currently in place for this season but the PFA are not happy about it and it is also a bit simplistic in that it's the same figure for everyone (2.5m per yr wage cap for Lge 1, 1.5m for Lge 2) which means those clubs with very little income could still overspend so it doesn't really address the problem. I had to laugh when the clubs said this will mean an average wage of only(!) £1800 per week. £93k a year to play third tier football? Crazy.

I thought this about the Wigan saga. Obviously it's scandalous, what happened, but letting it get to that stage highlights the broader issue. Why the expectation that a football club must turn a profit? Why, after an anomalous stint in the top league, did Wigan continue to live like that? It's not singling them out, others do the same. Kudos to Norwich and West Brom. They know the folly and take yo-yoing as acceptable. I'd have all football clubs (all businesses, to be honest) as not-for-profit if I had my way. Nothing stopping big money in that model but would weed out leeches.

 

[mattmid]

'm sure there are some instances where the fees some small clubs receive from the big clubs for their latest academy filler keeps them alive. But I would imagine that's the minority, and the bigger issue is that smaller clubs are denied talent that could help them on the pitch, rather than 'rotting in the reserves' at a big club.

Exactly right, this is another problem of football these days. The Premier clubs just hoover up every young player who shows any kind of talent. They even have summer soccer schools, my mate's son came home from school a few years back with a leaflet for a Chelsea Summer Soccer School that was to be run locally that summer. Why are they allowed to do this 70+ miles away from where their club is? And no doubt much further afield than that too.

The other thing from it too is that players who really aren't all that good are also getting stockpiled at these clubs. When we were in Lge 2 we had several Premier youth players on loan and the quality of them was frankly quite shocking, not in that they were awful players as such but because I expected them to be at least better than what we had and they weren't. Not one of them. One we had is now playing non league football for Eastleigh after being released by I think it was Palace if memory serves. How can a player get to 20-21 at a Premier League academy and yet only be good enough to play non league football?

In the past these players would rise to their level of ability, now they drop to their level. Plus of course in the past they would bring in vital income for lower league clubs.

Then there's the attitude of the players. I think it was the Stevenage manager at the time that I once heard on talksport. He'd had a lad from Spurs on loan and said how nice it had been because he'd come to them with a great attitude, wanted to learn, worked really hard on his game and was a joy to have around the club. He said he almost didn't take him on loan because of past experiences of players they'd loaned. He said they came to them, 18/19 yrs old on a few grand a week in their Premier academy, had the attitude that they had already made it when in truth they'd played no men's football at all and clearly didn't want to be there.

I think there should be a limit per age group. Something like you can have a maximum of 18 players per age group. Not only would that limit the stockpiling of young players it would also help those players because they'd get regular men's football much earlier. We had our own players of that age who'd played 50-100 games while these Premier youth players would come in on loan of a similar age and they had played 8 games on loan somewhere else or never played anything but academy league football.

You only have to look at some of these results this season from the EFL Trophy where the Premier U21 sides are allowed to enter.

Sunderland 8-1 Aston Villa U21
Accrington 7-0 Leeds U21
Wigan 6-1 Liverpool U21
Oldham 4-0 Wolves U21
Tranmere 3-2 Liverpool U21
Crewe 1-0 Newcastle U21
Barrow 3-2 Leeds U21
Peterborough 4-2 Fulham U21
Forest Green 3-0 West Brom U21
Harrogate 3-1 Leicester U21
Northampton 5-0 Southampton U21

If that doesn't tell you something then what will?