The Evo-Web Football Thoughts Blog

Re: Evo-Web's Football Thoughts - An Intellectual Safe Haven

Is there something wrong with refs or should we reconsider our fanatism about football:​

What makes football the most popular game in the world ? There are different responses to that question. But one could argue that the discussion after a match has sometimes more appeal than the match itself. Hence all the pundits, the podcasts and the thousands of pages in papers and magazine about football. Banter, discussion and ‘analysis’ are an integral part of football and have a major impact on what people think about football. If you consider all this punditry, journalism and ‘analysis’, what are the subjects that are most often treated ? Tactics ? Indivudual players ? Teams ? None of these. It’s pretty obvious that there are only two possible nominees for this particular award: the managers or the refs. A search on google for Mark Clattenburg resulted in more than 2.000.000 hits. One for Raffa Benitez provided 19.900.000 hits. Allright, our litle test might conclude that managers are more often talked about. That is inconvenient for this column, but isn’t it logical ? Manager/coaches like Benitez, Mourinho, Ferguson, Mancini, Hiddink and others are well known among football fans around the world. They are famous people. Ask a Malaysian fan who Mourinho is and he will answer correctly. For this piece i’ve been searching who Belgium’s number one referee is and i couldn’t find anything. Yet i found 2.000.000 hits about Marc Clattenburg. I’ve asked my colleagues football freaks if they could tell why the name “Clattenburg” sounds familiar. They answered that “Clattenburg” doesn’t sound familiar and that they haven’t got a clue. This could prove two things. First of all that i watch way too much football (but this is off-topic) and secondly that it is absurd to find 2.000.000 hits about a man that is not known outside his own country. As a follow-up research it would interesting to analyze all these articles on the net and try to find out the ratio between positive and negative articles. Would it be a wild gamble to suppose that at least 75% of the articles are rather negative ? I can’t be bothered because i’m sure that reading all this negative articles must be rather depressing. Poor Clattenburg. Poor referees and linesmen.
In the low countries these are sad weeks for refs. In both Belgium and Holland refs were attacked in sunday league or youth football. This resulted in two rather serious injuries and one death linesman. Richard Nieuwenhuizen, a 41 year old linesman was on december the 2th attacked by seven 16 year old players and one 50 year old father of one of the players. He died the day after. What was his crime ? To be honest: i don’t know. I’ve read dozens of articles about his death, but a reason was never mentioned. What i did find was that after the match Nieuwenhuizen was kicked at his head and his neck and this resulted in his death. Why ? Because he missed an off-side ? Sadly, this isn’t an isolated case. It happens frequent, although the consequences are not always serious. I’m a youth football coach and week after week i see fathers and mothers behaving disgracefull towards these volunteers who make it possible that football can be played by their offspring.
On a couple of occasions, i acted as a substitute for refs who couldn’t make it. I’ve been a football player, a coach and on a few occasions a (bad) referee. I can assure you that being a referee is by far the most difficult job i’ve done up and around a football pitch. Referees often have to make more decisions in a single half than the people who are criticizing them in their entire life. On top of that they have to take those decisions in a split second. On one occasion i had to referee a match of the team i’m coaching. I was determined not to seem biased and made a real mess of it. After the match my son said to me that they had had a good win despite a referee who constantly advantaged their opponents…where is Mark Clattenburg when you need him ?

If you look in the press, it seems that the biggest problems are situated at grass roots level. But isn’t it a bit easy to deny that professional football has a big fair-play problem and thus influences what happens in lower leagues and in youth football ? Watch an EPL or a CL match and what does one see ? Elbows are flying around, some players are lying more on the ground than they have ball contact (Didier Drogba against Barcelona anyone ?), players fall over after the faintest of contact, when a corner is taken there is more body contact than in certain adult movies and on top of that managers are constantly playing mind games with referees. Every remotely difficult decision provokes long discussions with players almost treatening referees. After the match pundits have a field day criticizing referee decisions and this usually after having seen 37 super slow motion replays from 8 different angles. If a linesman makes a good off-side call why isn’t this never highlighted ?
And then there are the managers. Their centre forward misses 3 sitters, yet they blame referees and linesmen for the loss of points, well knowing that their players are to blame. But one can’t criticize players publicly. So what do they do instead ? They blame refs and linesmen. The very same people who have physically and mentally the most difficult task on a football pitch and have by far the lowest wages. Isn’t it absurd ?
Star players and managers like Ferguson (SIR Alex Ferguson), Mourinho and Mancini are supposed to be role models. Yet sometimes they behave like crooks, because “they are winners”. And what about the pundits, former football players who like to earn some extra cash, dismissed managers who want to make an extra buck and pretend to know all…yet they stopped playing football and were sacked by their clubs. Maybe people like Alan Shearer , Alan Hansen and Gary Neville should give it a try and become referees at grass roots level. Why not ask Gareth Bale and Luis Suarez to act as referee in some youth matches ? And what about Mourinho and Ferguson ? Let them fill in as linesmen in lower league matches.
FIFA’s big boss Sepp Blatter spoke about his regrets about the death of Richard Nieuwenhuizen. That must have been a big consolation for his family. I wonder if FIFA or UEFA or the Dutch Fa will compensate his family for the loss of income caused by his death for the sake of football . Will high profile players support the linesman’s family ? I doubt it. People react now, because it is the appropriate thing to do. Everybody involved in football should perhaps reconsider his own attitude towards referees, linesmen and fair-play. Wouldn’t it be fantastic if a supposedly fouled player would admit to the ref that there was no contact and hence no penalty ? Nowadays the press consider it fair-play if a diving player admits after the match, that there was no contact and that maybe it was a light penalty (Arsène Wenger after Arsenal-WBA for example). Why not a compilation of referees best moments? Richard Nieuwenhuizen was 41 years old. Why not give a round of applause on all European football fields in the 41th minute to give him a late tribute ? We need referees and linesmen, so as football freaks we should respect them and even protect them. Wouldn’t that be a nice thing to do ?
And what were Nieuwenhuizen's last words before he died ? Kutvoetbal. I agree.
 
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Re: Evo-Web's Football Thoughts - An Intellectual Safe Haven

Thanks for enlivening my afternoon gentlemen.

Very well written pieces. You all have a future in serious football journalism.... ;)
 
Re: Evo-Web's Football Thoughts - An Intellectual Safe Haven

Thanks for your reaction. Never mind that it was a positive one.
I'm not sure if i will continue writing pieces, as it seems nobody reads them or reacts (and i don't necessary mean, react to say they are good or bad, it would be fun if people would discuss what is in them).
To be honest i also think they could be better placed on evo-web, why not the home page ? Now it seems that some posts randomly come on the home page. Why not put the blog on the home page ? Is the blog more important than other threads ? No it isn't.

But i don't see the necessity of one single post on the homepage...These are all isolated posts from a discussion. The blog can stand on it's own, most of those posts don't (some of them are merely questions, what's the use of a question without the answer ?.

It's not that important. I'm having a good time writing those pieces, but we need more writers...

PS: if it was up to me (and if i could change it) i would also change the title of this thread. I know Stef was being kind or polite, but imo 'intellectual safe haven' seems a litle bit pretentious. I'm not sure if i would go to a thread with that title... i'm sorry Stef, don't want to hurt your feelings, i know you meant well.
 
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Re: Evo-Web's Football Thoughts - An Intellectual Safe Haven

I think unless it is directly associated with a club lot's of forumers will maybe read what is written or not read it at all.

I set up the Argentina thread but no one and in particular from Argentina itself seem willing to comment.

I guess the predominant reason people come or register here is because they are playing PES and looking for various modding files.

Regarding officials.

Firstly those leagues that have the most viewers will have the most global perception. So the EPL will be more in the global consciousness given it's coverage over the globe.

Ask someone about the Jupiler League they will not have a clue. They might know of the top clubs within it perhaps a top prospect within it usually because some other club from a 'higher' league is pursuing them.

Consequently if no one has any real idea about the league outside of the country it is based in the officials will be non entities who may get a brief mention when they officiate at a international level tournament.

As to their treatment. It is disgraceful. I wonder how many of us would put up with being abused verbally and physically week in and week out ?

Precious few I suspect. They have been let down in all areas. Governing bodies have been ever so reluctant to provide officials with what the viewer can see in the comfort of their own home.

Bereft of technology they have not been supported by national associations. They have been given the option to send off players for foul language but you can imagine the outcry if they did.

They do need swingeing punishments for this and it would gradually melt away. There are precious few managers now who might act like a Clough ordering their players to obey the officials rulings without argument and being fined for picking up cards.

Nowadays the referee or linespeople are the first targets of abuse from a manager. A convenient scapegoat. Rather than lay the blame at the feet of players generally any conversation with a manager invariably leads to some hint that the referee cheated them.

No official (at least those not involved in betting scandals) goes out with the intention of cheating a team or making mistakes deliberately.

Yet every week whether it is pundits, commentators or the general media , the officials are the focus of the ever increasing scrutiny of multiple cameras able to slow the action to millseconds, provide views only a multidimensional being might be able to see.

And the behaviour that is tolerated by officials shouldn't be. It transmit's itself to kids who ape and emulate the actions of their heroes.

Nothing is done about this. Like their counterparts in professional leagues officials in junior games or in informal leagues suffer abuse each week which is not in the public eye or under media scrutiny.

Parents are also to blame. It is a societal problem to a degree given the social background where many kids emerge from and have no sense of respect for any authority figures.

It need not be like this. Tragic deaths like Richard Nieuwerkerken need not be tolerated or occur in the first place.

Football could learn so much from other sports where disrespect to officials is punished by truly heavy penalties and where officials have the full backing of their sporting body and technology on their side.

The case in Holland is a point where despite the reckless behaviour of their players the KNVB reacted leniently and even relaxes some conditions imposed on junior football in the country to curb outbreaks of violence.

One can see the lure of filthy lucre as a prime cause. Even in sports like rugby there has been a growing sense of disrespect to officials in questioning decisions. Luckily the authorities have reacted with increased penalties for those who try and usurp the officials authority.

Why in rugby ? Professionalism and large sums of money place pressure on individuals.

Football is where mammon really rules. And the consequences of losing are magnified ever further so much so that even the award of a throw in is always questioned.

The sole road to go down is to apply harsh penalties for those who question authority on the pitch. Match bans, fines, point deductions might soon sway the mindset of managers.

And for the love of god please introduce retrospective punishment. The appalling crime of simulation has reached new depths and again there are always people to defend the actions of these cheats be it fans or managers.

No one says a word about the unfortunate officials who are continually made a mockery by players who have perfected the art of cheating.

Without officials the sport would die. Perhaps it is time for the officials themselves to take the lead and threaten boycott's if footballing bodies refuse to help them out.
 
Re: Evo-Web's Football Thoughts - An Intellectual Safe Haven

Very good post.
And all what you ask should start at the top of the football pyramid: CL - WC - Euro League - the big leagues. Every single player (except the captain of a team) should get a yellow card. Every manager who harrassess the fourth referee or who puts pressure on referees by playing mind games: point deduction for his club.

Use television images and do something usefull with it. Example: Fellaini (a player and a club i love). Give Fellaini a serious ban (3 matches are a joke) and give Stoke the 3 points and Everton none.

I don't particularly like Stoke, but it is a good example to make my point. Now Fellaini gets a ban in matches against other clubs, this could well backfire against Stoke.

Another example: the horror tackle on Eduardo. Give the player a ban and Arsenal the 3 points. I wonder how much serious rivals benefitted from the fact that the Birmingham player was banned, this weakened Birmingham. I don't know what clubs had to play against Birmingham, but let's suppose that it was Chelsea and Man Utd. What was the consequence of the horror tackle for Arsenal: a player out for a long time (in retrospect one can say that Arsenal lost Eduardo that match, he never was the same player again) and an easier task for their immediate rivals...

Players like that should get a double ban: let's take Fellaini's example. A six match ban: the first 3 matches and the first 3 matches he has to play against Stoke (for whatever club he plays).

If the victim is injured: a ban as long as the injured player is out.

Concerning referees: they should be allowed to explain their decisions, this could help them (sometimes most people think the referee made a mistake where he was spot on, how many players, managers and pundits know the rules ?). If they made a serious mistake (and few are serious): let them say that yes they made a mistake (who doesn't make mistakes ?).
 
Re: Evo-Web's Football Thoughts - An Intellectual Safe Haven

This all sounds to eminently sensible for the footballing authorities to put into action Gerd.

They really have to help officials instead of vacillating with technology and they have to eradicate cheating.

Retrospective video would also clear up to a degree whether such serious injuries as inflicted on Eduardo were malicious or not. There have been instances where what looks like a perfectly ordinary tackle have resulted in serious injury.

I don't see though why referees should explain their decisions. Though this might alleviate some of the media frenzy which the media love to fill airtime with and where the actual football is relegated to second place.

It does open them up to attack from the media who will find ways to undermine them regardless. Footballers don't explain why they decided to pass to X and not Y or why they failed to control a simple pass or played a short backpass.

Something has to be done. I'm getting tired of seeing most managers and players each week blaming someone else rather than themselves for failure.
 
Re: Evo-Web's Football Thoughts - An Intellectual Safe Haven

Good piece gerd, but the name of the assistent-referee was Richard Nieuwenhuizen.
 
The story of player X, a very talented player, who was destined never to become a manager:

X is a 23 year old football player. After a very turbulent football match he has the following comment. Instead of fighting each other, the players should have united, stormed on the pitch and assaulted the referee.
X plays the first time for his country when he is 18 years old, this in a minor tournament in the USA. Between two matches he goes on a nightly escapade to New York with two team mates. They don’t even bother to mask their nightclubbing and the national coach is furious and never selets X again.
A club president speaks about X. Our relatioship became abysmal from the moment i started to treat him as an adult person. This after treating him for years as a father. X is a spoild brat, everybody has to agree with him and as to work for him. He wanted to select the team, wanted to be consulted for transfers, wanted the most lavish team bus, he wanted countless thing that were imossible to give him because football is about a squad and not about one individual with an enormous ego.
X carreer as an international was not exactly a big success. He scores only one goal in a major international tournament, this against Western Germany in a match were he was briljant. After scoring that goal he runs to the press tribune and mkes very clear what he thinks about these idiots of the press.
X plays first team football in the highest division when is 16 years old. When he is 17 years old his club has a new manager. He hasn’t exactly the best relatioship with his new manager. That manager about him: “I immediately realized that X was extremely talented player but i wanted to adjust him tactically. I advised him to defend when the opponent team had the ball. I tried everything to influence him, but all to no avail. He just resisted instruction he gave him and became very introverted”.
X about that manager: “He hated my backheels no matter if they succeded or not. He just hated them. I told him i did not understand why i should bother to turn myself if i had a team mate behind me”.
When X is a a 30 year old star player, in one match he decides to dive blatantly in the penalty area. The ref doesn’t fall for it and gives him a yellow card. X reacts as if he has been robbed, pulls off his shirt, signals to the bench that he wants to be replaced and arrogantly starts to go to the dressing room. The ref gives him a red card, but X doesn’t even notice that. He leaves the pitch furiously yelling that he will end his carreer as a player there and then.
X has a phenomenal bond with his chairman (the father of the one mentioned above). X refuses to have a manager, blindly signs contracts and let his chairman take care of his money.
For the funeral of this chairman, X is asked to give a speech. He complies. “Dear president, once again thank you, my eternal thanks for the fact that you treated me like a son and especially because one day you told me the nicest thing a person has ever told me: ‘I hope one day you will have a son that will be exactly like you’. Thank you because you are the only one who has ever understood what kind of person i am.”
One of his first coaches about X. “Will X ever become a coach ? Never ever. I’m quite sure that he is not hypocrtical enough to become a coach. With X what you see is what you get, he never has hidden agenda’s. He is much to spontaneous to become a coach.”
X did become a coach, however. He became coach of teams like Fiorentina, Lazio Roma, Inter Milan and currently Manchester City. Manchester City is currently also the club of players like Carlos Tevez and Mario Balotelli.
Currently X is in some kind of a conflict with Mario Balotelli who is described by some people as a spoiled brat, a player who doesn’t want to be grow up, a player who gets needless cards and is not doing enough defensive work. Balotelli also played in an insignificant tournament in the USA and when he got an open chance before goal he decided to do some gallery play. He missed and X, the backheel specialist, was furious. It’s strange how history tends to repeat itself.
Poor Mario Balotelli might consider to end his football carreer if even X doesn’t understand him as a person.

A large part of the above is based on a column in De Morgen (Belgian paper), written by Filip Joos.
 
[Why is Guardiola’s choice for Bayern the best thing that can happen to football ?​


To the general astonishment of most football followers, Pep Guardiola will be Bayern Munchen’s new coach next season. Most people expected Guardiola to go to clubs like Chelsea, Manchester City or Paris Saint-Germain. It is no secret that Roman Abramovich wanted Pep as the next Chelsea manager and one could even argue that the fact that Chelsea bought players like Hazard and Oscar was an attempt to seduce Guardiola. Under Di Matteo, and this certainly at the beginning of the season, Chelsea played some sort of Champaign-style football that must have attracted the style-conscious Guardiola. It was all to no avail. In the end Guardiola choose to go to Bayern. The reactions in the Brittish press may suggest that Guardiola’s choice was negative (“Guardiola snubs Chelsea” and realted articles all around the English press), but that is underestimating the man’s intelligence and his vision.

English papers, pundits and in particular Chelsea fans may feel hurt but Guardiola’s choice for Bayern is perhaps the best thing that could happen to football in general and maybe even Chelsea in particular.
It is a bitter irony that if Chelsea hadn’t beaten Bayern in last season’s CL final, Pep might never have ended up as Bayern’s coach. That defeat was one of the most traumatic events in Bayern’s history.
Christian Nerlinger, sensing that his position as sporting director would come under intense pressure following the traumatic Champions League final loss at home to Chelsea in May, approached Guardiola in the summer. The meeting with his brother, Pere, did not prove overly productive – a polite "let's talk in six months time" was the reply – nor was the ambitious attempt enough to save Nerlinger's job. The 39-year-old was replaced by Matthias Sammer before the start of the season.

Nevertheless, the record 22-times title winners had registered their firm interest and opened up a line of communication to convince Guardiola that their offer was worthy of consideration. Bayern realised early on that in pure financial terms they would not be able to match the riches available at Paris Saint-Germain, Manchester City or Chelsea. So they focused on pointing out the similarities between Bayern and Barcelona instead.
And there are quite a few similarities between both clubs. First of all both clubs are (partly) owned by their own fans. Both clubs also owe their success by bringing on young players: Beckenbaurer, Gerd Muller, Maier, Hoeness, Rummenigge, Rexach, Guardiola himself, Fabregas, Piqué, Messi, Schweinsteiger, Thomas Muller and there are lots of others one could mention. Both clubs go fairly regularly for big name players, but the core of their squad consists of homegrown players or of players who were bought when they were young and emerging (Alaba, Alba, Iniesta, Neuer to name just a few). Another similarity is also that both club’s policies are strongly influenced by former star players (Cruijff, Rexach, Hoeness, Rummenigge, Beckenbauer).

On top of all this, Bayern realized that they could offer something that clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City could not do. Bayern could offer a long term project and this must have seduced Guardiola because he signed for 3 years. Guardiola, the man who never signed a contract longer than one season for the biggest club in the world, now suddenly signs for a period of 3 years. It sounds like an eternity, but more closely considered it seems a logical move. Bayern’s structure and playing style is largely that put in place by Louis Van Gaal, a former Barcelona coach and a man that Guardiola has publicly praised. Pep will have a young and talented team, with players he can mold. The idea of taking a German club and adapting to his own philosophy is an attractive one.

Guardiola also declined to work in the most commercially exploited competition in order to work in a league that is more and seen as the paradise for the real football fan. One just has to look to the ticket prizes in both Bundesliga and EPL, to realize where football is still the people’s game... Securing the most-coveted coach in European football also reflects extremely well on the Bundesliga. It is easy to see why the fan-friendly, sustainably run league would fit into Guardiola's vision. "We are sure that he will bring glamour not just to Bayern but to the whole of German football," said a beaming Rummenigge on Wednesday afternoon.

To some English journalists it felt like losing to the Germans again when Pep Guardiola picked the Bundesliga over the Premier League. But rather than a snub for English football it was a glowing endorsement of the German game. It was his close friend Raul that convinced him that going to the Bundesliga is a very sensible move. Raul visited Guardiola last season when he was in Germany for a Champions League game against Leverkusen. The two spoke about the many benefits and few drawbacks of football in the country. Bayern is majority-owned by its supporters and likes to bring on home-grown players. On top of that the club is financially safe and sound.

Former Bayern Munich and England midfielder Owen Hargreaves believes Pep Guardiola has made a shrewd decision in choosing the Bundesliga above the Barclays Premier League. Hargreaves said on BBC Radio Five taht there aren’t many clubs within European football that have the stabilty and structure that Bayern has in place. Hargreaves said that, unlike many others, Guardiola isn’t blinded by the glamour of the EPL and it’s global appeal. According to Hargreaves Pep must have been charmed by other elements: the sturcture of the club, the successes of Bayern and the quality of the players. He also pointed out that the facilities and the stadiums are better than anywhere in the world. Hargreaves is convinced that Guardiola couldn’t have chosen a better destination.

Of course as a former Bayern player Hargreaves may well be biased, but this is still an important event for world football. By going to Bayern, Guardiola sends out a very important and heartwarming signal: contrary to what people might think, not everything or everybody in football is for sale. Guardiola sends a message that for some high profile people a project and a long term vision are more important than tons of money. Let’s be optimistic and think about all this as a very important precedent.

And should England once again feel defeated by the Germans ? Not necessarily. In the long term his move to Bayern might be in anticipation to a job for an English club that would suit Guardiola more: both Wenger and Ferguson are still in charge but will they be still around when Guardiola’s three year-deal has expired ? It is certain that both clubs have a clear philosophy, an excellent structure and a long term vision.

And what about Chelsea ? Should Chelsea see this as a big defeat ? Not necessarily, this might be a blessing in disguise. With his choice for Bayern, Guardiola most certainly does sent out a message for both Chelsea and Roman Abramovich. Pep has made clear that in football there is at least one person who is not for sale. He has made clear that high profile managers are not necessarily (only) attracted by big money, but by a long term project, a vision and a will to build for the future with homegrown players. Once Chelsea and Abramovich realize this, it may turn out that after all, Guardiola had a major influence on their club’s future.
 
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Nicely written Gerd. :WORSHIP:

Well said.

And of course Bayern are one of the true GIANTS of world football, always have been and always will be.

The club is as massive as it gets and only Manchester United, Real Madrid, Barcelona and arguably Milan and Juventus fit in the same category.
 
Godotelli said:
"something ... Manchester City could not do. Bayern could offer a long term project"

Not true
Click to expand...

It's not much of a project if you can buy any player you want in the world whenever you want to? I think Gerd means he can build a real project there, improve the youth system. He has a fantastic base to start with and as others have said Bayern are a huge club......whereas City just have huge pockets :PP

I don't see why people are that shocked to be honest.
 
After reading David Conn book about City, i see godotelli's point.
I think Man City do have long term plans and some vision, but it's all very fragile compared to what Bayern has been doing for almost 50 years now.

But when i speak about a long term project i also take into account the financial status of a club with an eye on financial fair play....the difference between City and Bayern is clear and huge IMO.

And most of you will know that i'm the last to have something against the sugar daddy clubs, if i had to choose between a club owned by a mega rich owner or (partly) owned by the fans...i would always choose for the last.
 
Gerd said:
I think Man City do have long term plans and some vision, but it's all very fragile compared to what Bayern has been doing for almost 50 years now.
Click to expand...
yeah but football only lives in the present and all the professionals who earn their livelihood in this industry have this concept very clear in their mind..... it's only us fans (and the journalists) who stupidly focus on the past (tradition) and the future (long term projects). tradition is a meaningless word in football (and i consider that a very good thing), for u're only as good as the table says. and as for long term projects, they ceased to exist in the early '80s, when the players began to hire agents to negotiate their contracts with their clubs.
today football lives on a single formula: a 3 years program. and 3 years is not a long term project, is not even a short term project. it's present tense. current time.

having said that, i agree with pretty much everything else u wrote. that was a very interesting post Gerd, u made several good points, many of wich i didn't even consider (like the fact guardiola signed a 3 years contract).

if i may add my 2 cents, i think there's also another reason wich made bayern the most logical choice for pep (and imo that was the key aspect in his decision); bayern has a team perfectly suited to play guardiola's football.

chelsea was never an option; u quite simply can't play guardiola's football when u only have 1 central midfielder (ramires). also guardiola's football puts a huge ammount of stress on the defensive line, wich has to shift 20 meters ahead (basically on the midfield line).... terry, david luis, cahill.... they could never do that. it would be a disaster.

man city on the other side has an amazing squad. their b-squad is almost as good as the best midclass teams out there (on paper) and their starting 11 is much better than that. but still, as good as that squad is, it's still not suited to guardiola's football; there's not enough quality at midfield to play the possession game and there are way too many great strikers (whose abilities would be wasted under guardiola). had guardiola chosen to go to man city, he would have been forced to rebuild half the team and to sell many great players (and great players aren't easy to sell theese days).

bayern's squad, instead, already has pretty much everything u need to play guardiola's football. the only piece who doesn't fit in the puzzle is mario gomez (and i would be seriously concerned if i were him right now :P ).
 
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I dunno. I think he would have needed to make 2 signings. A CM and a wide player. Tevez and Mario will be leaving anyway and perhaps even Dzeko as well.

------------A-------------

-----Silva----Yaya Toure-------

--B--------Aguero-----Nasri



Meh, it's irrelevant now anyway
 
Godotelli said:
Meh, it's irrelevant now anyway
Click to expand...
why? coz guardiola already chose bayern? well in that case it would have been irrelevant anyway.... we're just 2 guys chatting on a forum, it's not like our conversation might have changed guardiola's (or man city's) mind anyway. we just chat for the sake of conversation, so why stop now? :))
u see that bit of formation u wrote down isn't accurate. nasri as an inside forward is probably a good call, but there's no way david silva and tourè would be playing in guardiola's midifield.

david silva is an offensive player, not a midfielder. guardiola never lines up offensive players at midfield (if anything, he does the exact opposite, namely putting midfielders in attacking positions). if we were to replicate barçelona's formation, david silva would be a false 9 (to be precise, guardiola's cf is not even a proper false 9, but for lack of a better term, let's call it false 9), with tevez playing as the 2nd inside forward (on the opposite side of nasri) and aguero on the bench.

as for yaya tourè, he's not suited to play guardiola's football. and u don't have to take my word for it.... the reason why yaya asked for a transfer and left barcelona (for man city) was precisely because he wasn't (anymore) a starter in barçelona.
guardiola lines up 2 pure passers and a metodista at midfield, so there's no room for tourè (no matter how good he is). sorry for the italian term, but there's no english translation for this.... a metodista is some sort of a mixed player... part defensive midfielder, part deep-lying playmaker. busquets used to take that spot in barça, luis gustavo or javi martinez will take it in munchen. guardiola usually lines up this player in a very weird position, not exactly at midfield, just about 5 meters ahead of the cbs....it's like the specular image of a libero.

anyway, like i said, u would have had to rebuild your entire midfield to let guardiola play his game, and that would have been just silly, as your midfield doesn't really need any rebuilding (and it wouldn't with any other coach).

plus there would be the striker problem... what to do with dzeko and balotelli? u seem to believe they will leave anyway.... i'm not so sure about it. in order to sell a player, u also need someone willing to buy him.
u see the problem with the inflation process english clubs started is that now your market is very limited. to be more precise, u have a market of 6 clubs (barça, real, bayern, juve, man utd, chelsea). if any of theese clubs are interested in the players you're selling, u're ok... otherwise, your only option is to undersell, and even in that case, it's not like your market gets much wider (milan, atletico wolfsburg, possibly a few russian clubs).
both balotelli and dzeko are on a 6 millions euros per year contract. i can guarrantee u no club in the world is gonna buy balotelli with that wage... unless u're willing to cut his pricetag to a ridiculous bargain (like 8 million euros). the only european club who is interested in balotelli right now is milan, but they can't afford his wage.
and as for dzeko, he's a brilliant player, but how many clubs could afford a 6 millions euros per year contract? and even assuming there were some rich clubs willing to splash huge money on a striker, that 6 millions euros contract dzeko has, would probably persuade them to direct their interest towards other forwards (like cavani, falcao or lewandoski).
the real challenge for a club like city is not buying players... it's selling them.

p.s. btw is your nickname an analogy between balotelli and beckett's godot? coz if that's the case, it's absolutely brilliant! :APPLAUD: so freaking appropriate!
 
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It is a bitter irony that if Chelsea hadn’t beaten Bayern in last season’s CL final, Pep might never have ended up as Bayern’s coach.
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I'm not sure thats true, as far as I know Jupp Heynckes wanted to retire after this season, so Bayern Munchen was looking for replacement. How CL final would affect this?!
 
lo zio said:
bayern's squad, instead, already has pretty much everything u need to play guardiola's football. the only piece who doesn't fit in the puzzle is mario gomez (and i would be seriously concerned if i were him right now :P ).
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No wonder there is rumors Pep wants to buy Falcao or other top striker(maybe he should try Dzeko).
 
lo zio said:
why? coz guardiola already chose bayern? well in that case it would have been irrelevant anyway.... we're just 2 guys chatting on a forum, it's not like our conversation might have changed guardiola's (or man city's) mind anyway. we just chat for the sake of conversation, so why stop now? :))
u see that bit of formation u wrote down isn't accurate. nasri as an inside forward is probably a good call, but there's no way david silva and tourè would be playing in guardiola's midifield.

david silva is an offensive player, not a midfielder. guardiola never lines up offensive players at midfield (if anything, he does the exact opposite, namely putting midfielders in attacking positions). if we were to replicate barçelona's formation, david silva would be a false 9 (to be precise, guardiola's cf is not even a proper false 9, but for lack of a better term, let's call it false 9), with tevez playing as the 2nd inside forward (on the opposite side of nasri) and aguero on the bench.

as for yaya tourè, he's not suited to play guardiola's football. and u don't have to take my word for it.... the reason why yaya asked for a transfer and left barcelona (for man city) was precisely because he wasn't (anymore) a starter in barçelona.
guardiola lines up 2 pure passers and a metodista at midfield, so there's no room for tourè (no matter how good he is). sorry for the italian term, but there's no english translation for this.... a metodista is some sort of a mixed player... part defensive midfielder, part deep-lying playmaker. busquets used to take that spot in barça, luis gustavo or javi martinez will take it in munchen. guardiola usually lines up this player in a very weird position, not exactly at midfield, just about 5 meters ahead of the cbs....it's like the specular image of a libero.

anyway, like i said, u would have had to rebuild your entire midfield to let guardiola play his game, and that would have been just silly, as your midfield doesn't really need any rebuilding (and it wouldn't with any other coach).

plus there would be the striker problem... what to do with dzeko and balotelli? u seem to believe they will leave anyway.... i'm not so sure about it. in order to sell a player, u also need someone willing to buy him.
u see the problem with the inflation process english clubs started is that now your market is very limited. to be more precise, u have a market of 6 clubs (barça, real, bayern, juve, man utd, chelsea). if any of theese clubs are interested in the players you're selling, u're ok... otherwise, your only option is to undersell, and even in that case, it's not like your market gets much wider (milan, atletico wolfsburg, possibly a few russian clubs).
both balotelli and dzeko are on a 6 millions euros per year contract. i can guarrantee u no club in the world is gonna buy balotelli with that wage... unless u're willing to cut his pricetag to a ridiculous bargain (like 8 million euros). the only european club who is interested in balotelli right now is milan, but they can't afford his wage.
and as for dzeko, he's a brilliant player, but how many clubs could afford a 6 millions euros per year contract? and even assuming there were some rich clubs willing to splash huge money on a striker, that 6 millions euros contract dzeko has, would probably persuade them to direct their interest towards other forwards (like cavani, falcao or lewandoski).
the real challenge for a club like city is not buying players... it's selling them.

p.s. btw is your nickname an analogy between balotelli and beckett's godot? coz if that's the case, it's absolutely brilliant! :APPLAUD: so freaking appropriate!
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I tend to agree with you about Yaya and Guardiola. Clearly Pep preferred Busquets in the deeper role (Initially I put yaya in the deeper role). I just think that in the PL Yaya could play a big role in a Pep team if Pep slightly tweaked his tactics to suit it (which I think he may well have to do if he ever manages here) I think Yaya did a good job for Barca there before Busquets took over permanently and I think the Barca fans did too judging by their general sadness at him leaving.

I disagree tho when it comes to Silva. I see him as a midfielder even if he is offence minded. In contrast to Mata, Silva plays a deeper role for us, which I think is his natural game despite him playing a more wide role for Spain. I'd see him, in a Pep team, as being the Iniesta of the team. The only reason why he hasn't played a more central role for Spain imo is because of Iniesta.

I agree that it's difficult for us to sell players, moreso in the past where we wasted huge amounts on mediocrity, and it may take accepting less money than we think we ought to get for the likes of Mario (we want 30m supposedly) but I think they will be sold at some point - probably the summer.

And, yes, it is a reference to waiting for Godo :) You're the first person to make the connection. A couple of others thought it was a god reference and claimed I was just some glory-hunting kid because of it! :SHOCK:
 
Godotelli said:
And, yes, it is a reference to waiting for Godo :) You're the first person to make the connection. A couple of others thought it was a god reference and claimed I was just some glory-hunting kid because of it! :SHOCK:
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It's not because of your nick that you come across as a glory-hunting kid. Thinking that is very self-delusional. It is because some of your posts. You often make very good posts (like the one above), but your posts sometimes show a lack of respect for clubs who haven't billions to spend on good and mediocre players.

While i can't understand the "beachryan school of thought" that says that sugar daddies clubs are the root of all evil (they are the consequence of the root of all evil, the G14 clubs), i think fans of the sugar daddies clubs should be the first to understand lesser clubs who don't have a fair chance against the big clubs. Without Mansour and Abramovich Chelsea and Manchester City now could well have been championship clubs. I admire clubs like Everton, Fulham, Aston Villa, Wigan and others who stay in the EPL despite (relatively) very modest budgets.

Maybe you are not disrespectfull towards "litle" clubs, but that is the way you come across. I'm going off-topic and very personal becuqe i have nothing against you (despite what you might think), you often come acrioss as intelligent and that is the reason why lots of people react to some of your more disrespectfull posts. But maybe it's just me, i'm getting old... So if i hurt your feeling, i apologize that was never my intention.
 
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Godotelli said:
And, yes, it is a reference to waiting for Godo :) You're the first person to make the connection. A couple of others thought it was a god reference and claimed I was just some glory-hunting kid because of it! :SHOCK:
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sadly there are not many theatre enthusiasts out there theese days. i reckon there could be much more, but most people are just too lazy to turn off the tv and try something different.

anyway i certainly agree with u on yaya (not so much on silva). tourè did indeed leave sweet memories in most barça fans, and yes they were everything but happy when he left. afterall the guy is an amazing football player, and, although different from busquets, he's just as world class as him.
btw u make a good point about the possibility of guardiola adapting his football a lil bit. so far i've be talking under the assumption that guardiola would remain faithful footballing credo, but afterall that doesn't mean he would just replicate the very same football, only because bayern players might allow him to do so. infact just yesterday i heard guardiola has expressed some interest in vidal (who is much more similar to tourè than busquets). :))
---------------------------------------------------------------

Gerd i just read your previous entry (the one about "mr. X" who is obviously mancini).... i must have missed it before, scrolling down the page.
now, i have nothing against the author of that article (that Filip Joos u mentioned at the end of your post), but the man is clearely full of shit. i mean, the man he pictured in that article might be a man his mind made up from nothing, but it's certainly not mancini!
the young mancini a spoiled brat? that's just nonsense. if anything he was the exact opposite. he was always too mature, too smart, he always wanted too much responsability on his shoulders, even as a young kid (spoiled brats never want any responsibility). and that's the reason why he had so many arguments with his superiors (presidents and coaches).... because they felt intimidated by him (people with no self-esteem often have such issues)....... but those people who trusted mancini, those who didn't feel intimidated, but challenged by his personality.... those who told him "ok, so u think your shoulders are big enough to carry your team on them? u think u know this game and your teammates enough to help me out? then level with me, let me see what u got!"..... those people, those coaches and presidents achieved greatness. and that's a fact.

other than the usual suspects (milan, juve and inter), only 3 clubs managed to win a scudetto since 1990. samp, lazio and roma. mancini happened to be the undisputed leader of 2 of those clubs. and not just that; according to many, he was also the real architect of those teams (and when i say "according to many", i'm not talking of pundits or journalists who don't even know what they're talking about... i'm talking about the guys who played in those teams, those who lived inside those dressing rooms and actually knew what was going on there).
of course it might be a coincidence...... sure some might argue that samp was a fantastic team, and that lazio was a dream team, filled with world class players.... and that would be true..... but i might reply that in those years there were at least other 6 italian clubs as good as '91 samp and 2000 lazio. i might also add that those clubs never won anything else after that.... and that their coaches (boskov and eriksson, who i still consider very good coaches anyway) also never achieved any major success after those scudetti.... the "coincidences" are beginning to pile up, as u can see. ;)

mind u, i'm not a fan of mancini. i'm fascinated by him, as he is quite the character, but i also find him obnoxious most of the time. he was an amazing player, not just a world class player, but one of the all time greatests. many people don't aknowledge that, but that's mostly because:
- he never played for a big club.
- he played in an era when italy produced more world class players than average players.
- he got overshadowed by baggio, who had a completely different character, but also who was just as "difficult" to handle as mancio.
as a coach i think he's a good one, nothing more than that. of course italian standards are quite high in terms of coaching, wich is why he is one of the best coaches in the epl.

i heard many people saying he's only doing well coz hes had huge financial support from his owners (both at inter and in manchester). that is bullshit for 2 reasons.
first of, he didn't always had much money to spend. aks any serie a fan (i mean ANY) which were mancini's best teams (including man city) and they will all tell u his lazio and his fiorentina were by far his best teams. both in lazio and in firenze mancini had to deal with extremely delicate situations, as both clubs were on the brink of bankrupt when he took the job. and yet, with absolutely no money at all, and despite all that turmoil surrounding the club and the dressing room, he was able to shape 2 amazing teams, which played some breathtaking football (i've never seen mancini display such quality football after those 2 experiences.... not at inter and certainly not in manchester).

the second reason is that having lots of money to spend does not guarrantee succcess. true, u NEED to spend big in order to win, but that, although necessary is not a sufficient condition. as mario sconcerti wrote in his last book "there are 2 rules in football; 1) if u wanna win need u need to spend a lot. 2) spending a lot is not enough, as u also have to be smart about it".
the difference between a good coach and an average coach (like mancini's predecessor at city) is that a good coach will eventually get it right build u a team (whereas a mediocre coach might have all the money in ths world and buy all the best player on the planet, without being able to shape a team).

having said that, i wouldn't say mancio is anything more than "good". both at inter and city, he hasn't been able to replicate that beautiful football he displayed in lazio and firenze..... to be even more specific not only his football isn't as entertaining and bold as it used to be.... it's actually quite dull.
it almost seems as if pressure and tricky situations pull the best out of him, whereas easy, confortable situations make him lazy, but that's just my personal opinion.

however i'm getting off topic here. the point i wanted to make is that the journalist who wrote that article has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. mancio had quite a few fallouts with his superiors, but most of his coaches and owners loved him (on this topic, i am pretty sure most of the "quotes" the journalists mentioned in the article are completely made up! boskov, mantovani, eriksson, cragnotti... they would never say those things about him), and although he had a difficult charachter like balotelli, he was a completely different person (joey barton and mascherano also have 2 difficult charachters, but in a completely different way. the same goes for balotelli and mancini).
mancini is arrogant and obnoxious, but he's a Man.... and he's been a Man since he was 18. super mario is a stupid kid, a spoiled brat....... and sadly i'm starting to believe he won't ever grow into a man.

mancio was a Leader (and the capital "L" is not accidental). mario won't ever be a leader. and not because he's an ass or immature. he is those things, but those are not his main problems. european football is full of stupid jackasses, who act like divas; think of cassano, ibrahimovic, maradona himself. being stupid and immature didn't prevent them from having succesful carreers, from becoming (in their own way) leaders of their teams.
the difference between them and balotelli is that they know themselves. they're far from smart, but they know who and what they are, they know their strenghts aswell as their weaknesses, and that's what allowed them to have succesful carreers.
the ancient greeks had a powerful aphorism "gnothi se auton" (to our greek friends in here; i don't have greek characters in my keyboard and my greek is very rusty, so forgive me if the grammar isn't 100% accurate); that means "know thyself". if you're not the master of your own mind, of your own self, if u don't know who u are and what's your place in this world, u won't ever achieve anything in your life. if u can't guide and direct yourself, then u won't ever be able to lead others.
that's the main difference between mancio and balotelli. that's what makes a parallelism between mancio and mario as crazy as a parallelism betweeen del piero and john terry. and that's probably also why mancio gets so mad at mario, but still refuses to give up hope on him; because he sees glimmpses of true greatness in him, and knows it wouldn't take much for him to become the player he's supposed to become. sadly though, i'm starting to believe mario won't ever make that step.
 
Ben, i blame myself for your reaction. I never should have made that peice, it was a lazy one. I felt i had to write something and made this piece which was inspired not by an article (i.e. a journalistic product) but by a column about football (it is a work that takes literary freedom and isn't necessarily the truth but a very subjective opinion).

I will not discuss with you about the facts in that column and my piece that is based upon it, if you they are not true who am i to go into discussion with you. I like Italian football but never watch it, don't speak Italian and never read the Italian media. Filip Joos however is sports journalists/writer/ pundit who loves Italian football (people claim he is even obsessed with it), who speaks Italian and reads several Italian papers daily. I honestly can't imagine him making all that up.

But in the end if it's true, it doesn't even matter. In his piece Joos never wanted to criticize Mancini. I happen to know (sometimes we mail) that he actually admires Mancini and appreciates him as a manager (while i personally still have my doubts about that). Of course if you think that the piece wants to criticize Mancini, then i'm the one who is to blame (it was never my intention, but this proves that it was a badly written piece, which is logic since i'm not a native English speaker).
The point i wanted to make is that Joos sees Mancini as a guy who is not a conformist, a human being with a special character (whatever that may be) and that there could be (however vague) some similarities between young prodigy Mancini and young prodigy Balotelli (and i'm sure you don't agree with that). All Joos and i wanted to "prove" (of course i don't want to prove anything) was that if Mancini looses his belief in Balotelli...he is in trouble.

I thoroughly enjoyed your post and it hink it is a splendid thing you of all people react in this thread...but somehow i felled compelled to explain myself.
 
i hate it when u do that Gerd (i mean when u feel this absolutely unnecessary urge to apologise). what should u blame yourself for? for my reaction? i can assure u i didn't have any irritated reaction at all! i know it's hard to convey emotions when posting on a forum, and even moreso when u're not writing in your native language, but i wasn't angry nor irritated nor disappointed at all while writing my previous post. i was just chatting with u, expressing my opinion on that article. there can't be any conversation at all without diverging opinions, so why should u apologise for expressing yours?
besides that wasn't even your opinion as u simply reported someone else's views.
In his piece Joos never wanted to criticize Mancini. I happen to know (sometimes we mail) that he actually admires Mancini and appreciates him as a manager (while i personally still have my doubts about that). Of course if you think that the piece wants to criticize Mancini, then i'm the one who is to blame (it was never my intention, but this proves that it was a badly written piece, which is logic since i'm not a native English speaker).
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i did understand the man didn't intend to criticise mancio. besides i don't think it would be wrong to criticise mancini... there would be lots of reasons to criticise mancio. and funnily, unlike your friend Joos, i don't even like mancini that much (although i admit he's a good coach). i'm fascinated by him, but that's different. i'm also fascinated by mourinho, but i can't really say i like him either.
i just feel the person Mr. Joos described is a completely different person from mancini. and yes mancini and balotelli do have both a quite a bad charachter, but that isn't much of a similarity. lippi and mourinho also have both a bad charachter, but they're also two completely different people.

anyway please, don't ever apologise to me again, only because your opinion differs from mine.... it makes me feel dirty and guilty :P
 
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gerd said:
It's not because of your nick that you come across as a glory-hunting kid. Thinking that is very self-delusional. It is because some of your posts. You often make very good posts (like the one above), but your posts sometimes show a lack of respect for clubs who haven't billions to spend on good and mediocre players.

While i can't understand the "beachryan school of thought" that says that sugar daddies clubs are the root of all evil (they are the consequence of the root of all evil, the G14 clubs), i think fans of the sugar daddies clubs should be the first to understand lesser clubs who don't have a fair chance against the big clubs. Without Mansour and Abramovich Chelsea and Manchester City now could well have been championship clubs. I admire clubs like Everton, Fulham, Aston Villa, Wigan and others who stay in the EPL despite (relatively) very modest budgets.

Maybe you are not disrespectfull towards "litle" clubs, but that is the way you come across. I'm going off-topic and very personal becuqe i have nothing against you (despite what you might think), you often come acrioss as intelligent and that is the reason why lots of people react to some of your more disrespectfull posts. But maybe it's just me, i'm getting old... So if i hurt your feeling, i apologize that was never my intention.
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Not sure where I have disrespected all these clubs. I've been accused of it when I haven't - like when I said Moura should go somewhere else than the French league - but that's their issue.

I'm not sure it's delusional of me, it's happened a couple of times. Example http://www.evo-web.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=2543062#post2543062

I've also been called it simply for being a City fan. I've also made arguments on numerous subjects and all I've had back in rebuttal is someone bringing up irrelevant points against City. People arguing against my avatar instead of my points has been a regular occurrence on here. Again, tho, that's their issue.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread talking about me. It's a good thread with interesting articles
 
Crvena Zvezda and the end of Yuogoslavia:

Pieces like this one are not exactly science, so let’s leave all pretention about objectivity behind. Everybody who writes is subjective and to be aware of that is a good start. In my not so humble opinion the greatest football team of all times consisted of the following players: Stojanovic – Belodedici – Binic – Jugovic – Marovic – Mihajlovic – Najdovski – Prosinecki – Sabanadzovic – Savicevic and Pancev. Those eleven players won the 90-91 Champions League after the worst final ever: a stale 0-0 against Olympique Marseille, Prosinecki and company being the better penalty takers. Of course this piece is all about Crvena Zvezda Beograd or Red Star Belgrado.

The club was founded by anti-facists in 1945 and soon turned out to be one of the most popular teams in former Yugoslavia. As a Yugoslav football fan one had to choose for an allegiance between either Partizan Belgrado (the tema of the army) or Red Star Belgrado. Were it not for some obvious referee errors Red Star Belgrado could have been the opponents in Ajax’ first ECI final in 1971. In 1979 the Red Star lost the UEFA Cup final to Borrussia Mönchengladbach after another dubious penalty.

But the season 1990-1991 proved to be their season.

Most people remember this final as the worst ever in a game that was driven by paranoia between Bernard Tapie’s (the sinister president later jailed for fraud) Olympique Marseille and Crvena Zvezeda. Those people forget that this was a maginficent team. Before the matches against Glasgow Rangers, the Scottish manager Graelme Souness received a scouting report by his assistent Walter Smith, that consisted of only 3 words: “We’re fucked”. Kenny Dalglish considers this team as the best he’s ever seen. And football writer Jonathan Wilson also is a big fan of this team (much of what i will write comes from Wilson’s book “Behind the curtain” about Eastern Europe’s football).

Yugoslavian football fans, players and even the FA considered themselves to be the Brazilians of Europe. They became so obsessed with samba football that Red Stars home stadium is named the Marakana after the famous stadium in Rio. Althoug Yugoslavia never won a World Cup, there is some truth to the claim because of the sort of technical, free flowing football Yugoslavian teams have played over the years. And even Brazil itself must have recognised that because for Pele’s testimonial in 1971, they choose to play against Yugoslavia. In football Yugoslavia were what Brazil would have been had they been European, self-doubt overshadowing imagination and bringin to the surface a mean streak and some cynicism of the highest order. Seld-doubt seems to be the defining characteristic of Yugoslavian and (later) Serbian football: they have proved to be Europe’s most consistent chokers, briljant but rarely winning silverware.

It is also very appropriate that Red Star’s biggest triumph came after a game rendered sterile by mutual paranoia between them and Tapie’s Olympique Marseille. And talking about Olympique Marseille, they even owed something to Red Star. One of their stars was Dragan Stojkovic, a youth product of Red Star. In the penalty shoot-out Stojkovic refused to take a penalty because he did not want to score against the club where he was revered.This was Yugoslavia’s greatest football triumph and this at the time the nation was already dying. Indeed, when Red Star won the CL civil war was already being fought in certain parts of Yugoslavia. The desintegration of the country also meant the desintegration of this multi-ethnic team (Prosinecki is a Croat, Pancev a Macedonian, Savicevic comes from Montenegro, Sabanadzovic from Bosnia Herzegovina, Mihajlovic from the Krajina, the region were the fighting has begun, and Belodedici of course was a Roumanian). The sad thing – from a football point of view, that is – is that we will never know how good that team really was. Like Wilson writes in his book: “in this case the brightest hour came before the night”. The Champions League was wobn on 29 May and within a month Slovenia had declared independence and thus the federal republic of Yugoslavia was death.

Seven months later, Red Star also won the Intercontinental Cup agianst Chilean Colo Colo. By then Slovenia was officially independent, Vukovar had fallen to the Serbs and the siege of Dubrovnik had begun. That August when the Krajina Serbs had taken the Croation town of Kijevo and instigated the first ethnic cleansing, General Martic had symbolically ripped down a signpost in Latin script. At the Marakana, after the victory over Colo Colo the crowd were brought to a frenzy by war criminal Arkan, brandishing a street sign taken from the same region.

Is that Crvena Zvezda team the best club team ever ? Most certainly not, but it is the team that made the biggest impression upon me. They showed technical brilliance, fluidity, moments of flair, organisation, but also cynicism and even some mental fragility.

Let’s talk about some individual players of that team. Centre forward Pancev was a real goal machine, a player who could score goals from every possible angle and situation. Robert Prosincki was a midfield genius, Belodedici was a cultured central defender who already had won ECI with Steaua Bukarest a couple of years before. People who have watched Italian football know enough about Dejan Savicevic to acknowledge that he also was a genius, one only has to look to the final between AC Milan (with Savicevic) and Cruijff’s galactico team of Barcelona. Milan humiliated Barcelona in that final and Savicevic was the man of the match.

There is one player i would like to focus on, somebody who is seen as one of the vilains of European football: Barbika. Sinisja Mihajlovic was known as ‘Barbika’ (Barbie) because of his curls. In England Miahjlovic is known for an incident with Patrich Viera in 2000 that saw him banned for two games by UEFA. According to Viera, Mihajlovic had called him ‘a fucking black monkey’. Mihajlovic could, ubder Italian law, have been jailed for 3 years, but after he made a public apology and disavowal of racism from the centre-circle of the Stadio Olimpico, ahead of Lazio’s next home Champions League game, no charges were pressed. Mihajlovic defense, though, is worth hearing, not because it excuses what he said, but because of the inight it offers into his mentality. ‘Yes, I insulted Viera,’ Mihajlovic said, ‘but only as an answer to his insults. He called me “a gipsy shit”, andso i answered back with “black shit”. I’m proud of being a gipsy, so i wasn’t offended, and i don’t see how he could be offended because i called him black. I certainly didn’t call him a monkey. Viera provoked me from the first moment, and whatever the colour of his skin is, i’m not going to let somebody treat me like that. I i am a racist, so is Viera.’ Viera was never charged over the ‘gipsy’ allegation… But for all the controversy that has surrounded him, it is often forgotten what a good footballer Mihajlovic was. Nobody – not Platini, not Zola, not Maradonna – has scored more free-kicks in Serie A than him. So good was he, that when, at a Yugoslavia training session, the midfielder albert Nadj offered to buy the whole squad dinner if Mihajlovic could hit the crossbar from the halfway line with two shots out of three, he didn’t need the third attempt.

Just as Maradonna is always been a litle bit of a vilain because of the Falklands war, Mihajlovic’s image has suffered from the fact that he was Serbian and that the Serbs in the west are universially seen as the villains of the Yugoslavian civil war. Mihajlovic was born to a Serbian father and a Croatian mother on the edge of the city of Vukovar in the far east of Croatia. By July 1991, the war was in full swing in that region and Vukovar was surrounded by the Serb-dominated Yugoslav National Army.For four months they bombarded Vukovar and in the end the city fell and several hunderds of Croats were massacred. Four years later, the Croats swept back and Vokovar changed hands again. To what extend revenge was taken, remains unclear, but the local Serbs were terrified. Given their son’s statusas a hero of the local Serb community, Mihajlovic’s parents had more to fear than most other Serbs. But in the hours before the Croats arrived they escaped and it is a public secret that they were smuggled through the lines with the help of Arkan’s private militia. If Arkan really saved Mihajlovic’s parents, some of his politically incorrect views are at least understandable.

The same Arkan also tried to get a grip on Crvena Zvezda, but the club revolted and at long last Arkan obtained another Belgrade club (Obilic).

One could also write a book about the Delje, Red Star’s Ultra’s. Members of the Delje fought in the civil war but what is lesser known is the fact that they also begun the revolt against Serbia’s dictator Slobodan Milosevic. But this is not a political piece, this was written out of admiration for a fantastic team, my all-time favourite team. Perhaps not the best, but one that promised much more and will always remain promising. That is perhaps the reason why this team attracts me.
 
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Really good read, I never saw that team play, but I have heard a few people talk about them and I have seen some of the players play over the years of course.

It's a shame when things not to do with football get in the way, but I guess that is life. Football will always be effected by the environment around it, even though sometimes it feels like football operates in its own little bubble (Especially the Prem).

One of the best things about football is the fond memories I think and it is good to hear your thoughts on that team and the players.
 
It's a great piece, and I would certainly say that team (and by extention you can say the Yugoslavian national team of very late 1980s and early 1990) was sensational. All the superlatives about Barcelona of the last 4-5 years could be said about the Red Star team and in my opinion to a much higer degree, more than Barcelona they showed so much versatility, not only was there a plan A but there was also a plan B, C and D. Red Star was like a machine that would evolve during the match if the opposition detected a weakness in Red Star, then the players would just seamlessly change the system.

If you look at the semi against Bayern it encapsulates the team there you have Red Star starting off with free flowing short passing central game, and then at the end of the tie they use a lot of wing play with players breaking from defence and dribbling out almost the whole length of the pitch. As you say with Mihaljovic they had the ability to deliver pinpoint set pieces and Pancev was both great with his feet and in the air. Even in the final (which was not really entertaining) Red Star showed the sort of defensive skill and organistation to shut down Marseilles that normally one could only associate with an Italian team of that era, the final wasnt great to watch but it was a masterclass in the art of defending, marking oppostion, denying space, covering crosses into the box.

One thing about Mihajlovic, he was born in Eastern Slavonia very near the town of Vukovar in eastern Croatia (his first club was actually Borovo which is a club playing in the suburbs of Vukovar), whereas the Krajina was the other side of Croatia, around the town of Knin halfway between Split and Zadar but inland a little.
 
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