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Suggestion Fifa forum splitting into general/editing?

gerd said:
This time i was laughing Coopz...sorry. In Belgium "37" is a standard answer as a joke...i thought it was obvious that i was joking.
Three people however contacted me...and that is no bullshit. The peculiar thing is that it were three members i'd never noticed...not the people i usually discuss with.
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Gerd you don't strike me as the jokey type so i though you were serious :))
 
gerd said:
This time i was laughing Coopz...sorry. In Belgium "37" is a standard answer as a joke...i thought it was obvious that i was joking.
Three people however contacted me...and that is no bullshit. The peculiar thing is that it were three members i'd never noticed...not the people i usually discuss with.
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3 people is quite alot of the 'quieter' people - that is an overwhelming response ;))
 
BobbyBox said:
3 people is quite alot of the 'quieter' people - that is an overwhelming response ;))
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It certainly isn't an overwhelming response but considering the fact that i'm not a mod, that i never participate on the chatbox and that those people were total "strangers" for me, it might just be an indication of something.

I don't think i meant harm with my previous post.
 
gerd said:
It certainly isn't an overwhelming response but considering the fact that i'm not a mod, that i never participate on the chatbox and that those people were total "strangers" for me, it might just be an indication of something.

I don't think i meant harm with my previous post.
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Nah its fine - I can understand why a few people have a problem.

I think some of us are in our own little bubble and just think the parts of the site we go into are the most used. I did this the last time, until it was pointed out to me that actually the Editing parts had a greater number of people on it etc.

But I still stick by what I said earlier - Forget about the Chatbox etc. The Fifa side of it, has alot of people in it. Whether it be more or less than the PES Discussion thread etc. It still shouldn't be gotten rid of.
 
How does the following sound with regards to keeping FIFA onboard? Please bear in mind that all we're trying to do is stop threads descending into farce. Thus, something like:

1. No mention of FIFA in the PES forum(s) and vice versa.
Designed to keep each forum talking about the right game and cut down on the non-constructive arguments. I appreciate that this may seem Draconian but really it's the best way to keep each forum on-topic.

2. No posts in any forum designed specifically to illicit a negative reaction from the fans of that particular game.
No baiting in other words. We want any talk to be about the games and not about how people feel about other's opinions.

Constructive feedback would be appreciated.
 
Mart said:
1. No mention of FIFA in the PES forum(s) and vice versa.
Designed to keep each forum talking about the right game and cut down on the non-constructive arguments. I appreciate that this may seem Draconian but really it's the best way to keep each forum on-topic.
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Seems pointless to me, you discuss a game by comparing it to its competitors, "I like this feature from game x", "I don't like this from x", it's like saying no discussion about Manchester Utd in the Liverpool thread because some Liverpool fans can't handle the comparisons. If people in the Fifa/PES threads can't handle mentions of PES/Fifa they should really grow some balls or get off the internet, IMHO :) So you ban all mention of a game's competitor, what next, you ban any mention of anything negative at all because it might upset 1 or 2 sensitive souls? That doesn't leave discussion it only leaves sycophantism. There are forum rules, there are moderators, moderators are there to ensure forum rules are followed, if forum rules are broken then the rule breakers are warned/PRd/banned, a system that's worked for years so why not now?


So in response to my original question and the point of this thread, no Fifa editing forum then?
 
Mart said:
How does the following sound with regards to keeping FIFA onboard? Please bear in mind that all we're trying to do is stop threads descending into farce. Thus, something like:

1. No mention of FIFA in the PES forum(s) and vice versa.
Designed to keep each forum talking about the right game and cut down on the non-constructive arguments. I appreciate that this may seem Draconian but really it's the best way to keep each forum on-topic.

2. No posts in any forum designed specifically to illicit a negative reaction from the fans of that particular game.
No baiting in other words. We want any talk to be about the games and not about how people feel about other's opinions.

Constructive feedback would be appreciated.
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I think it is a good idea in the 'Discussion threads' to do this now. Just discuss that particular game from now on.

I do agree with Placebo on the whole - but it has to be acknowledged that there are a few on these forums that just keep going on and on about the same old shit all of the time. These people cannot just put their view across and go away. They have to keep chomping at the bit - and I understand why people in the PES thread are getting pissed off.

But also on the other hand - I do think that it is just a few people who are wind up merchants and keep on about stuff. So they should just be warned and banned for a few days.

Its a hard one - But I do think it will all flare up again when PES 2009 comes out. If people don't like it, they will just go mental and arguments will start again (Even if Fifa isn't mentioned). But I think this will happen wether there is a Fifa part to Evo-Web or not.

But I do agree with the two points - Something needs to be done about all the bitching. People need to accept that some people just don't agree with them and just get over it. You posting over and over again isn't going to change their minds!!!

I for one would just like to go into the PES thread and see videos etc - not a whole load of crap going back and forwards and I understand why the mods are getting pissed off.

Maybe you need to add a PES vs Fifa thread so the people that want to argue about it can vent their frustration and be left alone. Aslong as they are not abusing eachother and calling eachother names and being rude it would be ok. Then the other threads can jsut be left alone for that games discussion.
 
Placebo said:
Seems pointless to me, you discuss a game by comparing it to its competitors, "I like this feature from game x", "I don't like this from x", it's like saying no discussion about Manchester Utd in the Liverpool thread because some Liverpool fans can't handle the comparisons.
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In principle I agree that comparisons are fine but the fact is moderating that line of discussion became a never ending and ultimately fruitless task. This is due to the fact that even legitimate comparisons were being made over and over again to the point of exhaustion, which isn't good to read as a neutral and puts people off a thread in the first place.

I'm not against having a thread or section purely for comparison but it doesn't work in one of the game specific forums.

Placebo said:
If people in the Fifa/PES threads can't handle mentions of PES/Fifa they should really grow some balls or get off the internet, IMHO :) So you ban all mention of a game's competitor, what next, you ban any mention of anything negative at all because it might upset 1 or 2 sensitive souls? That doesn't leave discussion it only leaves sycophantism.
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It's not about banning mentions per se but rather the end result as mentioned above. It's not a case of trying to stop discussion or promoting sycophantism but establishing guidelines to cover both games in their own right.

Placebo said:
There are forum rules, there are moderators, moderators are there to ensure forum rules are followed, if forum rules are broken then the rule breakers are warned/PRd/banned, a system that's worked for years so why not now?
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These steps are meant to allow that system to work. At the moment if we were to warn someone about a post but miss a similar post in the other thread from the opposite viewpoint, we appear to be taking sides. If we remove a post because it's making the same point over and over, while not strictly speaking breaking any rules, we'd be seen to be attempting to stifle discussion.

Placebo said:
So in response to my original question and the point of this thread, no Fifa editing forum then?
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That comes once we've agreed how to proceed. There would be no problem facilitating your idea after that if FIFA stays. I'd prefer it to stay but not on the terms we have at the moment. I won't be sacrificing the overall quality of the site, which at the moment is the case.

I'm trying to involve everyone to get a balanced view, whatever we decide some people will be unhappy, some will be happy.
 
Cheers, Bobby, you're clearly weighing up the options. Some of my above reply overlaps what you've said there too.
 
Mart said:
In principle I agree that comparisons are fine but the fact is moderating that line of discussion became a never ending and ultimately fruitless task. This is due to the fact that even legitimate comparisons were being made over and over again to the point of exhaustion, which isn't good to read as a neutral and puts people off a thread in the first place.
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There are no neutral people here, well there are those that love both Fifa and PES, they'd be neutral but they're few and far between, the other end of the spectrum are those who hate both Fifa and PES in which case I don't know why they're here ;)

If people make the same comparisons over and over what does it matter? Just ignore them, there's an ignore option for a reason, the only people who should have their words controlled are IMO the monosyllabic trolls who post things like "PES is shit, luk lyke iceskater LOLLL" or "Fifa is shit zombie monkey apes!".

I read both threads avidly but post mostly in the Fifa one, there are regularly comparisons made about PES, for example Ronaldo10 was talking about the player/team individuality of PES and I called him on that as it's not something I saw to any degree, he and I and a few others discussed the issue and then went into a debate about online gaming being better than offline, the latter topic is something that's been trodden over and over for the last 5 years but I don't whine about it because that's the whole point of a discussion forum to my mind, freedom of expression, freedom of ideas just within slight boundaries of taste, decency and general respect.

If it's not "allowed" to post in a game thread and compare the game to others in the genre, the good and the bad then to me there's no room for discussion, even if comparison is only 10% of the discussion to have that restriction would render both threads pointless.

At the end of the day the only people I see who're complaining are the small percentage who're the absolute hard core PES fans who won't contemplate looking at another game for 1 second, and to them any criticism of any kind is an affront to them personally, is that really who this forum should revolve around? Their wishes are the deciding factor simply because "well this is a Pro evo forum".....
 
Placebo said:
There are no neutral people here, well there are those that love both Fifa and PES, they'd be neutral but they're few and far between, the other end of the spectrum are those who hate both Fifa and PES in which case I don't know why they're here ;)

If people make the same comparisons over and over what does it matter? Just ignore them, there's an ignore option for a reason, the only people who should have their words controlled are IMO the monosyllabic trolls who post things like "PES is shit, luk lyke iceskater LOLLL" or "Fifa is shit zombie monkey apes!".

I read both threads avidly but post mostly in the Fifa one, there are regularly comparisons made about PES, for example Ronaldo10 was talking about the player/team individuality of PES and I called him on that as it's not something I saw to any degree, he and I and a few others discussed the issue and then went into a debate about online gaming being better than offline, the latter topic is something that's been trodden over and over for the last 5 years but I don't whine about it because that's the whole point of a discussion forum to my mind, freedom of expression, freedom of ideas just within slight boundaries of taste, decency and general respect.

If it's not "allowed" to post in a game thread and compare the game to others in the genre, the good and the bad then to me there's no room for discussion, even if comparison is only 10% of the discussion to have that restriction would render both threads pointless.

At the end of the day the only people I see who're complaining are the small percentage who're the absolute hard core PES fans who won't contemplate looking at another game for 1 second, and to them any criticism of any kind is an affront to them personally, is that really who this forum should revolve around? Their wishes are the deciding factor simply because "well this is a Pro evo forum".....
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Good Points :DD
 
As mentioned Mart I think it would be impossible if not impractical to ban the mention of both FIFA and PES in each others forums, they are the two main contenders in the genre and comparison is inevitable.. As for the negative comments and so called bitching I think this should be left down to good moderating. You run the risk of over sanitizing the site by too much censoring... ;))
 
It is not only the small hardcore PES diehard fans that are complaining.
Chris bauer mentioned the last PES thread as highly un-enjoyable. As he was moderating this thread he should know what happens and Chris is clearly not PES diehard fan.

On the other hand people are labelled very quickly as "fanboys" (i hate that word). I' mentioned as a fanboy and would you believe it that i played far more FIFA08 than PES2008 on PS3 ????

What i really hate is that people who like PES are almost seen as "inferior", "dumb", "ass-holes"...

And then there are some things i don't understand.

An example, this about somebody i really like on this forum although i disagree quite often with him (he knows who he is). He really does not like the ML in PES. That's perfectly his good right.
He keeps repeating that time and time again in the PES 2009. Ok, so far, i think it's the general atmosphere in that thread that causes that.

But then he decides to visit the ML thread with comments like: "you two really are the only people still enjoying the ML"...i agree that this is not offending (he's a very nice guy), but what is the purpose of that posting...does it incites any form of discussion...i don't think so...

To the anonymous poster: this is only an example...don't feel offended. If you want to discuss it, you can always PM me, but i would like to avoid further discussion of this in this thread. Thanks.
 
gerd said:
What i really hate is that people who like PES are almost seen as "inferior", "dumb", "ass-holes"...
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Anyone who thinks that quite clearly is an idiot, although to be fair I'm guessing you're paraphrasing as I don't recall anyone calling any PES fan those kinds of things in the PES2009 thread........
 
I can understand why the admins feel something needs to be done, however I actually think that mature posts, comparing the qualities and faults of both games leads to some good discussions.

I think the simple solution is a common sense policy where you warn/infract/ban people who are incapable of mature discussion and just come up with stuff like "fifa players look like zombie and monkey lolol ea and fifa sux" or "pes is old and shit lolol".

If people can take factual points from videos or experiences of games, and form them into well structured and justified points, there is no problem with that sort of discussion in my opinion.
 
I also understand that something needs to be done, and I hope that something is done, rather than just closing the FIFA section. The 2 points that Mart made earlier on this page, (please don't go to page 4 with this post :LOL:), are good ideas. I do also agree with Placebo and Rob though, that discussion comparing both games is good and can be positive. I would say go with Mart's option number 2, and hopefully that will sort out the immature "pes is for n00bs and ice sk8rz lolllz".

If after a trial period of option number 2 we find there are still major problems in both the PES and FIFA areas, then enforce Mart's option number 1 as well, but keep it as a last resort.
 
Oi, I'm not a telephone helpline. That did seem to be the way to go from this thread, though. Perhaps being harsher in terms of clamping down on certain posts will help set the bar by itself.
 
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I know my opinions means jack, so feel free to ignore my rambling but...


I wouldn't want this site to be a place where you have to stop and think before posting and re read your posts to check you've not accidentally wrote anything that might talk down PES or Fifa. I'd like to think people are mature enough that if they see something I've posted that annoys them or that they just disagree with. They will either pm me or post asking why i think that with why they think differently. Not posting 'Rad U iz Wong u muppet!' or reporting me to a mod like a child hoping that I'll get told off. Or they'll just accept that I think something they don't and move on and not feel the undying need to post against me and argue.


I don't think I've ever gone into the PES thread purposely to tell everyone there why I like Fifa over PES or vice versa. I did attempt to go into the PES 2009 news thread when there was info coming out but there was that much random chatting that it felt like a chore to find info on the game. I don't think I paid enough attention to it all to see what was being said and if people were fighting amongst themselves - to be fair I couldn't give a dogs dick if someone loves PES and refuses to even look at Fifa. As long as your having fun yourself then I'm happy.

I was going to skip Fifa 09 and buy PES 09 this year just because I could. I thought it might be nice to get a different footie game this year and have a year of something new (I didnt buy PES 08) and then next year maybe go back to Fifa. In the end I don't have to pick between them as the misses was asking what game i'd like for christmas and i thought as long as the demo interests me then get me that.


Though I did type this in the Fifa thread earlier today;

http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1431143&postcount=2364

Someone probably could have read that and come back with 'You're an idiot and a troll' or maybe they could have read that and got pissed off. But I've not really trashed PES fans and the game to their faces. I've just talked shite and made an exaggerated joke. But is that the kind of thing we'd be warned/banned about in the future?

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I can see why you wouldn't want to change the site into a Fifa and PES based fan site as it would piss off the people who see this site as PES only. But it's a bit of a strange one to myself. Are the people who will get annoyed really that insecure? What difference would it make to the site? Would anyone actually quit this place just because the site catered to it's members who like games other than PES?

Does anyone or did anyone ONLY come to this site AND stay because it's called EVO-web... and it's the EVO from Pro Evo? Did the name mean anything to you?

I came and stayed because I enjoyed PES and enjoyed adding edited data to my game. The name of the site and it's other sections means jack to me. It could be called The Booyaa site and have 3 sections devoted to cooking for all I care and I'd still come here for the sections I do care about.

The site would still have everything it has now... so they're losing absolutely nothing.



Do they get pissed there is a section devoted to other games or other sports than football or is it basically a hatred and fear of fifa. Is it a fear that members might enjoy fifa more than pes and that the fifa section might be bigger and more active? That if Evo web added a real Fifa section with sub sections etc... it's almost like admitting the game is worthy of having a section. And in some way proving them and their opinions wrong that Fifa = Shit?


Even then the PES sections would never get deleted. So the only problem I could see would be that let's say the fifa section becomes more and more popular. Is that the problem? That they're afraid that fifa might liked?


If they truly believe that PES is superior then they have nothing to fear. A fifa section with it's own sub sections within would be the niche section and seen as an extra part of evo web. If Fifa became a big part of the forums nothing has changed for them and their sections. So what's the problem?


If the PES editing section is really popular then wouldn't the Fifa section become popular with the editing community and appeal to new members?

I'm planning on buying the PS3 version of Fifa 09 but if you can edit the pc version then that's pretty tempting to me.

Maybe at first people might not get into Fifa editing as it's going to be new and most will have probably bought it on their consoles. Plus the game will have most things already in the game like kits .. but everything has to start somewhere.

I like the idea as well about relaying info to the FSB and then onto EA to help improve the game. In an ideal world the PES fans would suggest things in an adult manner along with the fifa fans to help push the game towards a universal great game. Surely there are features in PES that even the anti PES fans would love to see in a great football game and vice versa.



The problem lies in the fact that trying to cater for two games like this has caused stupid discussion after stupid discussion. How many PES and FIFA discussion threads have we been through in an effort to stop either of them descending into 'PES is shit lolz', 'no FIFA is shit lolz'
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If anyone decided to pop into the FIFA sections to say 'Fifa is shit' then they deserve a warning and then a suspension if they continue until they learn to keep it to themselves and grow up.

We have a bunch of mods on here - so surely there are enough of them to police the sections if they did crop up. And if they're not online then everyone else here should ignore the poster or at best just post to inform them they're braking the code of conduct rules and should stop, instead of them posting back and arguing.

1. No mention of FIFA in the PES forum(s) and vice versa.
Designed to keep each forum talking about the right game and cut down on the non-constructive arguments. I appreciate that this may seem Draconian but really it's the best way to keep each forum on-topic.

2. No posts in any forum designed specifically to illicit a negative reaction from the fans of that particular game.
No baiting in other words. We want any talk to be about the games and not about how people feel about other's opinions.

Constructive feedback would be appreciated.
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I think a mix of points 1 and 2 would work. You should be able to refer to fifa or pes in each others threads for constructiveness. for example if someone is talking about the Be A Pro mode in Fifa and after improvements I would post a lot of the features they used in WE like being sold to another club mid season. I'm not saying Fifa is shit because PES had this feature so no one should have a problem with that. If I went in saying They can't improve it because it's shit, you're shit and PES rules' then I'd clearly be a prat and deserve to be warned.

If anyone is seen going into a thread and posting a one off comment slagging off a part of the game without having a reason to then they get modded for it in whatever way is suitable.


Yeah it'll be tough to blanket cover and mod correctly every single time. Mods might miss a post if a thread is really active and i doubt anyone would enjoy modding a forum where they spend 99% of their time on it reading old posts on the off chance someone was acting up. But I'm pretty sure when people see the law being laid down they'd think twice before heading into the fifa thread to post how great pes is and fifa is shit.


Does this site not have a feature or could add a feature where we could mark someone's thread for moderation or mark it as offensive/trolling/flaming etc. So mods could get notified and check the thread out immediately rather than the longer task of sending a PM to a mod which I guess most couldn't be arsed doing.

And how does having the fifa section on here sacrifice the quality of the site at the moment ?

Sorry my post was quite long - I just think this place is great and don't think it should limit itself to PES for the hell of it or on the off chance a few autistic people will flip out and leave the site.
 
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At the risk of agreeing with Placebo in public, it was a good read. :)

Radiation said:
Though I did type this in the Fifa thread earlier today;

http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1431143&postcount=2364

But is that the kind of thing we'd be warned/banned about in the future?
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I don't think we'd warn anyone for something like that. It's more about respecting people's opinions and your post does nothing to go against that. I also don't view it as baiting.

Radiation said:
Is it a fear that members might enjoy fifa more than pes and that the fifa section might be bigger and more active? That if Evo web added a real Fifa section with sub sections etc... it's almost like admitting the game is worthy of having a section. And in some way proving them and their opinions wrong that Fifa = Shit?

Even then the PES sections would never get deleted. So the only problem I could see would be that let's say the fifa section becomes more and more popular. Is that the problem? That they're afraid that fifa might liked?

If they truly believe that PES is superior then they have nothing to fear. A fifa section with it's own sub sections within would be the niche section and seen as an extra part of evo web. If Fifa became a big part of the forums nothing has changed for them and their sections. So what's the problem?
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Again, that's treating both forums (fora, latin pedant fans) as seperate entities, which is what my first suggestion of a rule was about. It's only when we get a clash of opposing views and in a negative non-constructive way that we have issues. Or people viewing something differently and seemingly spending many posts attempting to prove that they're more correct for thinking that over what someone else thinks.

Radiation said:
I think a mix of points 1 and 2 would work. You should be able to refer to fifa or pes in each others threads for constructiveness.
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The only downside to that being the subjectivity of what is constructive and what is negative banter. Your examples are very clear cut but when it comes to the real deal in the forums the lines are more blurry and we can make a decision that someone sees as biased. This is fine if everyone's mature about it and we have time to evaluate and correct any decisions.

Actually, this is starting to sound like we need to implement the RESPECT system allegedly adopted by referees and players in the Premier League this season. :)

Radiation said:
Does this site not have a feature or could add a feature where we could mark someone's thread for moderation or mark it as offensive/trolling/flaming etc. So mods could get notified and check the thread out immediately rather than the longer task of sending a PM to a mod which I guess most couldn't be arsed doing.
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Yes, the little warning triangle on the bottom left of a post is the report post feature. It's quite handy as it contacts multiple moderators at once and is used by a few people. Maybe we could make it stand out more.

Radiation said:
And how does having the fifa section on here sacrifice the quality of the site at the moment ?
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Again, not the game itself but it attracts or has attracted negative non-constructive posts in the PES forum too.

Thanks to everyone for their feedback so far.
 
Coopz said:
Whats Toms view on all this i wonder :))
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I'm with Mart on everything he says. We're in a constant exchange for ideas. Unfortunately, though, he's the one knowing how to express these ideas in a more fashionate and eloquent manner than me, so I'll stick with reading for now ;)
 
Ahhh so having Fifa here has brought out the trolls. I thought it was something to do with the word FIFA being here and contradicting the sites name (PRO)Evo-web.

At least I assume that's where the name is from. Unless this site was a fansite to the theory of evolution which had a fight like this years ago when PES was becoming popular here and eventually it took over the site and the Darwin fans left.


But with fifa, I understand you now. That makes sense as well. I can't say I've noticed that much going on in the Fifa thread myself so I assume most of it goes on in the PES section. Which would make sense at without starting a fight it's viewed as the weaker of the two football games these days.

If this was 3 or 4 years ago we'd probably be having PES fans going into the fifa section laughing at that game and slagging that off so i don't know if its FIFA fans specifically who are causing trouble or just the types or person. Or even if its just that the fifa die hards can finally say something back at PES and so are doing as they feel they're long overdue.

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I hadn't noticed that triangle before. I assumed it would be next to the quote/quick reply areas or in the top right or left sides of the posts.

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With the respect idea. Well we had Plan M and DJ here and I completely missed everything they did to warrant a ban. Whatever it or a combination of stuff was it doesn't matter. It shows that the mods will step in when something has happened so it's not as if anyone will act up here and there and when they're warned think 'whatever... they'll never do anything'

I do think the mods can put an end to some of the arguments. I have seen a few disagreements stopped as soon as a mod has posting asking them to stop.

But I have not seen enough of the arguments or fanboy fights or whatever anyone would like to call them to make a clear judgement call on what could be done.

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I would be interested in a Fifa section. I don't think it would have to stand out on the main front part of the forums taking up 5 or 6 separate sections like PES. It could just be a Fifa thread that when you go into opens into sub forums like here
http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=13

An Editing thread, FSB thread and then under that anything else and below those sub sections would go everything that's in the fifa thread right now as the general fifa talk area.


I think it would work out ok. If the site did get a sudden increase of tits and they weren't the ones being posting in the 'hot women thread' then i think the mods would have their work cut out for a short while. But I'd be pretty confident it could be controlled. They do a great job as it is so if everyone on this site agreed to watch each others backs and help the mods out we could stamp it out before it got really bad.

I guess the mods would have to work out if they want to be watching over even more threads and possibly telling new members off if it bring in morons. It's very easy me saying I'm happy with more this and that because I don't have to do any of the mod work to keep it running.

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Tom you should just whack whatever you think down. That's what I do.. it comes into my head I type it and move on. I have no idea what (fora, latin pedant) is but it sounds like it tastes good and could be spread on toast.
 
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Trust me, you're lucky you weren't here when the Darwin fans kicked off. Ironically, though, they were the ones that faded away and didn't survive.

I've always assumed the Evo was from Pro Evo but I don't think anyone explicitly stated that it was so.

On the subject of dodgy posts, most of them in this case were indeed in the PES threads. Some remain but I think we spent so long going through and removing them it prompted the discussion we have today.

Speaking for the mods, we're not concerned with a bit of extra work and obviously we expect it around new releases but I think to evolve properly it's better to establish a policy of sorts that the members and mods are happy with. Apparently I've turned into a politician so am just going to go and kill myself.
 
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