Root Of All Evil?

Stringer Bell

Stringer Bell

Banned
Joined
12 February 2005
Location
London
Not sure if i can put this in the entertainment section, since it's kinda deep lol.

But did anyone watch this two part program on religion?
 
I missed the second part of it, but watched it last week and as a atheist myself i was intrigued and found myself agreeing that Religion is quite possibly the cause?
 
I used to think i was the only who thought like this before watching this program lol.

Really fucked up what Religion has done especialy in my personal life.
 
Hi Stringer, jamie_mack

I'm afraid I didn't see it, but it's a subject I'd be happy to discuss.

Is Religion really the cause of the majority of the World problems (now and throughout history)? or man's interpretation of it ? - to look at it another way, isn't religion just a device used to by the powerful to get the weak majority to believe.

db
 
Should have just had Eric's Idle's Galaxy Song *ahem*:

Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard or tough,
And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite eno-o-o-o-o-ough...

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the "Milky Way".

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.
:)

Would have cut down on production costs and they could have put on a documentary about the making of escape to victory.

To be honest I think about 80% of the world is pretty liberal and not right wing/left wing/religous zealot/etc.

What we have is a power elite who realy on aspects of religon to empower and justify their decisions. He only picked up on the negatives of religon, not really saying anything about good work that is done. Still I'm agnostic, would have been nice of him to go after the Hindus and the pesky Krishna's too, oh how about the Sikhs? they carry knives, have long hair and stuff.

He had some good points, but to ban religon? Unfortunately, that'd just make zealots more zealous.

He didn't mention the French schooling system and the problems of not teaching religon there.

He just kind of cherry picked topics and had a bit of a holiday, I'm a cynic.
 
Spikey there is good in Religion but the good init can come from Man itself...you could just create a law with all those stuff init.
 
and the USA...
I've been reading a book by The Independent's Middle East correspondent Robert Frisk. A very moving book: 1400 pages of horror and misery (The War of Civilizations).
It's far from a pleasant read but it made me understand (once again) why there still are lots of people who are willing to become a suicide bomber.
It made me understand that "the Western allies" (and boy i don't consider myself an ally of the evil people who "serve" in the Bush administration) will never win the war on terrorism, the way they are fighting it now.
The war against terrorism can only be won by treating the muslim world and the third world as equals and by stopping to patronize them...
Nowadays there is much ado about "the nuclear program" of Iran...
I'm against nuclear energy and weapons, but i don't see why a country like Iran should not have the rigth to develop a nuclear program (or weapons) if the USA and their Western allies have nuclear missiles...

And about religion. It's not religion that is to blame for all the evils, but the way religion is used by people like Osama, Bush and Blair...

Rant over...
 
Stringer Bell said:
Spikey there is good in Religion but the good init can come from Man itself...you could just create a law with all those stuff init.
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True, take it you haven't been to South Korea? There are a lot of voluntary groups who just do stuff for the benefit of the community, like people cleaning beaches, just because they can. Although having said that and knowing some Koreans for a while, it's a well corrupt country and there's a whole load of born agains begining to take hold there. Best thing about that place was the first question I got asked, which is 'are you American?', as soon as I said no, 'English' they became very nice, friendly and open - but i digress.

As for Iran and nuclear bits, let them have it, proliferation of weapons can result in stability and national security (North Korea, Israel, India & Pakistan). Besides, they haven't got the technology to deliver a strike (unless it's fourth protocol styliee). And if it's being used for energy, then good on 'em.

Besides it's gone a bit quiet on this country updating it's nuclear weapons and power stations, if we did, then how hypocritical?
 
The thing that got me with the program is not as much todays world problems but hundreds and thousends of years ago the same fights were being fought for basically the same thing....
 
My opinion is that almost every religion is useless. Maybe this seems a bit radical. But if you look through the histories of all religions you can understand it. Basically we all have the same religion. We all have the same god in the end. And we threated each other like that. In the begining time of the Islam, jewish and christians all lived peacefully together.
And if you loook how the European abused religion through the decades.. Almost every religion has grown out of his 'roots'. Ah so many examples how religions are being used for imperialisme, for colonisation, for own power-issues. I just cant believe anymore, not after all what happened to religions.
The only religion I can understand a bit is Budhisme, at least that is orientated on yourself..

Oh about Iran, I really dont care if a country wants to have an nuclear program if the western countries are allowed that too. But dont you think its a bit tricky to allow a country like Iran a nuclear program if their prime minister says that all jewish people have to be destroyed and weeped out of Israel..?
 
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jamie_mack said:
The thing that got me with the program is not as much todays world problems but hundreds and thousends of years ago the same fights were being fought for basically the same thing....
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Control of resources/land.

Religion is and has reguarly been used to cover this up.


btw Gerd - it's Robert Fisk (very courageous guy), sorry it just amused me because to 'frisk' someone in english means something else.

db
 
denirobob said:
Control of resources/land.

Religion is and has reguarly been used to cover this up.


btw Gerd - it's Robert Fisk (very courageous guy), sorry it just amused me because to 'frisk' someone in english means something else.

db
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The age old process of 'divide and rule' comes to mind.

So it's not Robert Fist then?

:roll:

But surely inactivity towards progressing the world is encouraged by the use of the meduim of media? Oh the irony..
 
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GFK said:
My opinion is that almost every religion is useless. Maybe this seems a bit radical. But if you look through the histories of all religions you can understand it. Basically we all have the same religion. We all have the same god in the end. And we threated each other like that. In the begining time of the Islam, jewish and christians all lived peacefully together.
And if you loook how the European abused religion through the decades.. Almost every religion has grown out of his 'roots'. Ah so many examples how religions are being used for imperialisme, for colonisation, for own power-issues. I just cant believe anymore, not after all what happened to religions.
The only religion I can understand a bit is Budhisme, at least that is orientated on yourself..

Oh about Iran, I really dont care if a country wants to have an nuclear program if the western countries are allowed that too. But dont you think its a bit tricky to allow a country like Iran a nuclear program if their prime minister says that all jewish people have to be destroyed and weeped out of Israel..?
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I personally don't think any country should have nuclear weapons at all.


GFK, regarding the comments that their President has made, Sharon has also made a fair few similar things over the years and there was no outcry then. Also, the US & Israel have both already threatened to deploy nuclear weapons (new smaller bunker busters etc...) against Iran although again as to be expected not a word about the morality/hypocrisy of such statements.

The thing to remember is that people in the US & UK and to a lesser extent Europe, are being gradually warmed up (via the media) to accepting that Iran needs to be dealt with, most of it isn't really that subtle...

Iraq_Iran.jpg


I've got sheloads more info but I won't post it all here or it'll bore you all to tears ;)

Although here's a link that some of you may (or may not) find intersting to do with propoganda & the media in respect to Iran...

BBC 10 O'clock news: Iran the naughty school child

anyway sorry chaps, my apologies if this is slipping off topic somewhat.

db
 
Anyways at the end of the day where all gonna die, lets see what happens, yeah.

Me personaly i don't believe there there is a heaven or hell...i'm not sure how we go here but lets just live life as honest as possible and make the most of it.
 
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I haven't read the whole thread but just to tell you guys as a fellow Iranian myself. The president is an IDIOT. He is not a good representative of what majority of Iran are like or THINK like at ALL!! He's very old-fashioned, talks a lot shit. Can't keep his mouth shut and there is talks in newspapers that he's not mentally HEALTHY if you get what i'm saying.

I mean who the hell would deny holocaust ever happened? You don't even have to like Jewish people to admit that happened. IT's the truth, it's in history and I've had teachers / Jewish friends here who talked about their grandparents suffering so much horrible stuff that I don't even want to get to.

I just wish this Islamic regime of Iran would be thrown over because people of Iran want freedom and they're not really a religious country either. Yeah I was born a Muslim and still call myself Muslim but I don't pray/fast or any of that stuff and neither does half of Iran. We're just not very religious people like Saudi Arabia and other Arab countrie around this (then again some people don't even know Iran is NOT an Arabic country and they can't be more wrong!! :roll:).

There is religious people in Iran like my grandfather himself - God rest his soul but even then he never agreed with ANYTHING these stupid Mullahs who are currently running country said. They are just evil/murderers who kill so many students in Iran everytime they protest. He was just a great man and religious and always did his stuff but the real Islam says DONT hurt people.. dont MAKE Them want this religion. Treat everyone fair and equally but these stupid morons here in charge do the WORST things they want and say it's all in name of JIHAD Or Islam and Qu'ran and therefore it's easy to see why Non-Muslims and people in West have generally bad idea of Qu'Ran/Islam because of these idiots.

In reality these people that most of Western world hates and thinks they are real Muslims cuz they pretend to be are actually FAR FAR from being a real Muslim. Because a real Muslim was a great man like my grandfather not these assholes who break so many rules in Qu'ran and kill people and put it on name of Qu'ran/Islam and Jihad and give it names like these.

Rant over.
 
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denirobob said:
GFK, regarding the comments that their President has made, Sharon has also made a fair few similar things over the years and there was no outcry then. Also, the US & Israel have both already threatened to deploy nuclear weapons (new smaller bunker busters etc...) against Iran although again as to be expected not a word about the morality/hypocrisy of such statements.
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Ah yes, you are right. I should have stated to about Israel. I dont like Isreal either. I dont have anything agains Jewish people, not at all. But the way they act in the middle-east makes me sick too. Since 1945 they act in Isreal like it always have been their country although I thought the jewish didnt have Jeruzalem for 1200 years or something (dont get me on this, I have to look it up but its somewhere around that)
And all because of religion.. I cant understand and I will probably never understand how you can live to a book which is more then 3500 years old.. I wont judge the people who do wants to live via the book but why so much fuss around it? Why couldnt the jewish people just wait a bit longer after 1945? I dont say Israel is the problem in the middle east, I think they are part of the problem there.
Same with what PLF said. Iran was always one of the most west-orientated countries of the middle-east and suddenly they become so conservative. But this is also partly the cause of the west, cause Iran feels quite threated now they are surrounded by Israel and Americain Afghanistan.. But still I think you can justify such behaviour..
No I think this whole terrorism, middle-east, Isreal and everything around doesnt have a clear cause and for sure not a clear end..
 
Joost, i am not you (you do not want to be me, my friend, you would be much older and not wiser).
Yes DB it is Fisk and knowing myself i will continue to make that mistake...
PLF, i was moved by your reaction, i suspected that attitude from you against the mullahs...i don't like them either...but Db is right when he is saying that the USA, the UK and the media are preparing the people for a new "crusade" against a "terrorist state". This crusade is not about the Iranian regime (the Reza Pahlavi's regime was as cruel and un-democratic as the mullah regime)it is about oil and about weapons trade...
And i agree that the president of Iran is a major idiot and that his declarations on jews and the holocaust are foolish (the least) but somehow under all this bullshit the man has a point. Israële are fighting the last colonnial war in the world against the Palestinian people. The USA and the UK are very eager to condemn other countries who are violating UNO-resolutions but they always "forget" about Israël...
Now that Sharon is dying he is described as a dove when in reality this man was one of the fiercest hawks...the man was responsible for the massacre in Sabra and Shatila ( as determined by an Israëlian commity of enquiry).
Everybody who criticize Israël is accused of anti-semitism...
 
PLF:

Fair point about the president, however if you look at the UK, the prime minister who was elected by around 36% of the votes, of which only at the very most 60% of the people eligible to vote, actually voted, it could easily be argued that he doesn't represent half the population here. He too (like most politicians) is full of shit, invading a soverign nation and 'selling off' education, might also be considered unstable. Castro is labelled unstable, however the US (apart from sanctions) hasn't tried to overtly lay a finger on him for the past 20 years, why? Nucs. It would taken a supreme nutter to use such weapons, I don't think he's capable and would surely use them for leverage more than anything else.

As for the Islamic faith, I agree, there's a lot of good things about it, each commuity has it's own interpretation and some of the pillars are great (% of annual income to charity or good causes for one - er can't remember the name of it).

Every one else:
Isreal, India & Pakistan, much the same as Iraq, was pretty much a victim of the Post British Imperial age. Isreal, pre 45 was to be for the arabs (hence their co-operation during WWII), the fall out was the rushed situation post war and the short sighted solution for the perceived need for a specifically Jewish only homeland, none of which is anti-semetic, just the brisk nature of British withdrawl led to these problems. Now, much like the situation in Northern Ireland (I blame the Dutch), resentment and division is so ingrained in society (beyond just religon), that there is no simple solution, if there was, it would have been found. As for breaking security resolutions, don't even get me started on this hypocracy.

Iraq, and the invasion of Kuwait, was actually and I hate to say it, their 'right', Kuwait was created under some sort of lease agreement (bit like Hong Kong), when the British pulled out of there post WWII. Also it was us who created the country, by some geezer who wanted to draw up nice straight lines, with a not caring about historical/social divides (also see huge bits of Africa drawn up this way) - I can go and get references if need be. Anyway, the west supported the regime, until it was no longer of use, the same will happen again and again all over the world, be that western or through the rise of China, which come to think of it, incidently is the only super power that does not have a religous base, maybe they are the way forward? They've certainly waited long enough in the wings and the way they treated the crashed US spy plane is indicative of their mentality (was around April 2001) *goes off to learn Madarin*

*comes back*

When it comes down to it Stringer kind of sums it up well, providing we stick to our principles, c'mon most of us can only influence so much, the world would be a better place if we:

"just live life as honest as possible and make the most of it*".

* in a nice way

*goes back to Mandarin class* :)
 
Even though I totally skimmed through most of the replies and the thread on the whole, I think the worlds major problems past and present come down to one word.

Greed.
 
Exactly mate.

There is a finite amount of Land/Oil/Gas/Water etc.. in the world, and control of it (through war) has always been the key to power.

PLF, Ged & Spikester - great coherent & informative posts, I'll try to come online later and contribute.

On a slight tangent does anybody know much about Genghis Khan and the Mongols ? I've been reading up about it recently and wasn't aware of how close they came to invading & conquering all of Europe. He wasn't religious as far as I'm aware.

db
 
denirobob said:
Exactly mate.

There is a finite amount of Land/Oil/Gas/Water etc.. in the world, and control of it (through war) has always been the key to power.

PLF, Ged & Spikester - great coherent & informative posts, I'll try to come online later and contribute.

On a slight tangent does anybody know much about Genghis Khan and the Mongols ? I've been reading up about it recently and wasn't aware of how close they came to invading & conquering all of Europe. He wasn't religious as far as I'm aware.

db
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Genghis Khan has more then 16.000.000 relatives :D
 
denirobob said:
On a slight tangent does anybody know much about Genghis Khan and the Mongols ? I've been reading up about it recently and wasn't aware of how close they came to invading & conquering all of Europe. He wasn't religious as far as I'm aware.

db
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indeed they were about to conquer europe. not sure but i think they almost reached the region of todays poland but had to return because their leader died at home. they were mercyless and anticivilised, burned whole towns down and killed all villagers, and to be on the safe side to not have any survivors who could warn others they beheaded everyone. they were excellent fighters on their horses. i think if they had successfully conquered europe we might still have almost medieval circumstances here, but thats just a guess.

as for the religions, i actaully think its a good thing but it can be an used as an dangerous instrument to manupulate people. similar to nuclear energy and many other things which are being abused. though i think if it wasnt the religions which caused a lot damage it would have been another make believe for the powerful people to convince the folk.

i am not religous but i understand if it takes a big part in the life of people who take their strength of it and all that but it also can make them blind.

i for one believe in god but dont need a religion for it.
 
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Exactly. I believe in god and you know I pray to him sometimes, or request things or when I get things I want or just am healthy and so is my loved ones I say thank god. No I don't get on my knees and do the exact movements you're SUPPOSED to as a Muslim when praying and say those Arabic words. I say it in my own language because surely the supereme god knows all languages and can understand what I'm saying to him.

This is again goes back to how I think and almost 90% of Iranians outside of Iran and also about 50% of them inside. We're not RELIGIOUS people in sense to go to Masque every week and pray and fast and all the rules of Islam but do I have anything against people that do it ? No not really.. do I think I HAVE to do that ?? No I don't. I kinda think like GFK and SB.

I'll live my life by doing the right things like being honest, helping people when you can and generally being a good person. I don't need some 3650 year old book to tell me what to do nor do I think god will only listen to me if I speak in Arabic (which means I have to memorize the pray Muslims should do and evreything) and do those movements like hands on kneeds and bent over and all those moves. I think I can sit in my chair and thank god for everything he's given me in my OWN lanaguage!

My main problem as I stated in last post was the evil stuff "The current Iranian president" and Iranian so-called "Islamic" regime is doing and has done in past (mass murders of fellow compatriots themselves just because they wanted freedom :( , so many uncivilized/merciless stuff you guys don't know about) and basically everything these assholes do in NAME of Islam and they give it stupid things like "Jihad" and we're doing this for Allah and things like that. That's my main problem and you can imagine I'm not just defending Muslim's names either, cuz I'm not religious anyway nor is my family but I have seen REAL muslims like my grandpa who were religious and they are great people. But these people aren't real muslims, cuz when no one is looking they do a 100 Un-islamic things yet when they want to terror/murder and all sorts of bad stuff, they bring up name of Islam which makes some of the more naive/less educated Western people think of this religion as bad and give it a bad impression.


@Spikester, I see your points :)

@Gerd/Stan, you're definately right about that whole Israel stuff. I fully agree.

Also I'd like to say that my level of knowledge of history is NOWHERE NEAR you guys and I'm also a bit younger (19) so I can't debate you fully on this stuff nor have I read more than 3-4 books in my life (I know it's sad) :( but I can give my opinions as I have in last post and hope it is still useful enough for some to read ;)

take care guys.
 
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Spikester: NIN SHUO ZHONGGUOHUA MA???? (I have a degree in Mandarin, Modern Chinese and Classic Japanese...but it's been ages since i've talked it...must be 14 years...very, very rusty...no to say that i barely could speak it now).

Good thread and very nice to see that quite a lot of people agree with people like me, DB and Joost...there was a time when we were treated as extremists...there is so much disinformation in the world...i blame the media (CNNN...BWEURK...).
I not religious, i don't believe in god. However, i do respect people who believe in god or who are religious.
Something what i hate and what can become evil is organized religion...religion is supposed to be something personal...i don't see what some funny old man in Rome, Qom, Mekka, Baghdad or Jerusalem has to do with those personal things.
 
gerd said:
Spikester: NIN SHUO ZHONGGUOHUA MA???? (I have a degree in Mandarin, Modern Chinese and Classic Japanese...but it's been ages since i've talked it...must be 14 years...very, very rusty...no to say that i barely could speak it now).
Click to expand...

My reply is:

It's too orangey for crows it's just for me and my dog!

Hmm, maybe I picked up the wrong book. ;)

gerd said:
I not religious, i don't believe in god. However, i do respect people who believe in god or who are religious.
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The old dear has 'turned' religous, as long as she doesn't try to get me to church, I don't see any harm in her being involved in jumble sales and all that. Feel sorry for the old man.

Nice to hear there's a general consensus on these things.

PLF - you only have to do so much reading (I quit history at GCSE - got a B and sulked), remember in this country we're taught about the battle of trafalgar, whereas in Spain they get taught about a completely different naval battle, when they whooped Britain.
 
I think the words from Bob Dylan and Bill Hicks can truly be considered as bible material. That's religion people, right there.
 
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