PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

[Topaz]

I started doing stats experimental game for the footie games where I see if a stat matter and how much it matters. I put two players one with the lowest stat and the other with the highest stat to see the difference. I have done some videos with WE9-LE which I will be posting shortly. In WE9-LE, the speed difference between 1 rated guy(on every stat) vs 99 rated guy(on every stat) is like 3 seconds. In PES 6, that is 5 seconds. In PES 2010(which has the biggest individuality) has 10 seconds. So now I will be doing advanced shooting comparison to see if it does get affected by stats or not in PES 2017.

 

[PES94]

Or maybe adding sliders would make them go lazy on us.

 

[James Beaver]

I would prefer two modes, arcade and sim, but if that's not realistic, then sliders, yes please.

 

[PRO_TOO]

If this is an effect only for him...

Will for sure be replaced with animated shoe laces effect in PES2019!

 

[curdstar]

I think credit has to be made to Adam and Asim. They are in a very tough position to please PES fans. That is seriously a daunting task. Not only that they have to make PES fans happy, they also have to sell to the non-PES fans, to make more money so the PES fans can be happy with a product in the first place. The biggest issue is that they need to sell a product that falls short of licensing. I am a tech support engineer, and sometimes the make/break of our product being used is an additional click, and the validity of that click being necessary or not. Put it into perspective of what Adam/Asim have to work with, and now the request that someone has to download an option file to get their favorite teams/players is an additional click.

I don't loathe their jobs, but I also don't feel sorry as they are the ones who chose it. The improvements that I can see in PES 18 look absolutely amazing. I know they are listening to us, but I also know they are accountable to listen to the data they receive. If the data doesn't support the demand, then how can they logically execute a gameplan? How can they tell their superiors that this is the direction to go, without any fundamental evidence of data that supports the decision?

The catch all, is pride, and it's the pride of the developers that need to release sliders upon PES. That's the best thing I would recommend at this point. I would not even be touching FIFA if it did not have sliders. Gameplay customization is not a way to accept defeat, it's a way of giving options and options are always far superior than forcing limitations.

Very eloquently put, Matt.

Regards pride. At the moment, I think it is a balancing act for the developers. I feel there is a sense of pride from them but are currently operating in a situation where they actually need to try grow the userbase, but can't be without their hardcore audience. It might very well be an exciting challenge, but I dare say also a stressful one. If sales didn't matter it would be an ideal situation as you would have a committed hardcore whose feedback you could look to use, almost exclusively, in order to entice a greater audience. A game built entirely on hardcore fans desires. The making of money demanded by the higher ups denies the actual creators that flexibility. I would take double the estimated sales of PES2017 (which are apparently sitting around the million mark?) if PES2018 is to prove a significant step in the right direction regards realism in look, motion and gameplay, as that surely would be encouraging; maybe would suggest a growing demand for that type of football game. Rome wasn't built in a day etc., but I reckon you don't need to build a massive city, just a like-minded community of reasonable size that can prosper on its own.

I think the developers want to make an absolute masterpiece, and have a level of pride in their current progress in terms of visuals, animations and playability that they are only too happy for footage of the game (along with fairly open conversation from those who have been able to play it) to be out in the wild this early. I find it quite encouraging. There is no way they would allow that if they weren't proud of some of the things the game is looking to offer, and you can bet the higher up's had to okay that, knowing the risks involved. It's actually pretty ballsy, as it is unprecedented, if everyone cast aside any emotion and took that into consideration. They knew the hardcore audience would be all over it and for it to get a bumpy ride one way or another. With that in mind, wouldn't it be cool if it were the case that they are actually looking at our feedback early? I mean, we are going to be the ones talking about it the most from now and after release. I'm not saying surveys and social media feedback isn't taken on board, merely that while it can be used to inform on some things, maybe it should not be, and maybe isn't, being used to drive every decision.

Put it this way: I know where I would be looking if I wanted to find out how my game is shaping up if I was wanting to look for feedback on early footage of it. My hope is that Konami are doing exactly that; that they are trying to make the game we want, but are having to face some realities and prioritise accordingly. My hope is that the positive praise the game seems to be getting when looking at the bigger picture is possibly down to them getting closer to what we want as opposed to further away. That it is a result of our ideals being put in place bit by bit.

I don't think it can be denied that visuals and animations are what was desired most by us fans of the series not too long ago. That appears to be progressing rather well in my opinion, and it is conclusive proof that they felt the need to respond to fans. Now we are in a situation where it is gameplay elements that are requiring breaking down by fans, and there is much to suggest progress is being made there too in PES2018, but there are and will be issues.

It actually isn't that bad a situation when you look at it like that. Maybe now that they have confidence in their tech, they can now start to truly focus on other things. Adam has said that he believes this is a pay-off as the result of three years work in the background on PES2018 before it became the complete focus of the team, I believe. Perhaps then the next three years could see them truly get underneath the bonnet of the sport.

 

[GiogiPogi]

Pes 2018: News and depression, the king will never return".

Jokes aside, I think I may have “liked” almost every single post in the last page or two!

On the hand hand, although perhaps I'm more optimistic, I can't help but empathise with Lami (whose rant made me chuckle heartily). I feel your pain, bro! The ability shown by KONAMI in the last decade or so to consistently shoot itself in the foot surely has by now become the stuff of legend. I mean, besides invoking financial masochism and/or creative schizophrenia, how exactly does one fathom the logic behind the decision to arbitrarily remove perfectly good features from a game? Some of the choices made since the PS2 era are outright baffling. One would be tempted to think that Seabass really was more that the Keeper of the Flame, and that since his departure PES has been helplessly groping in the dark. The last edition I played—and by played I mean “properly played”, Master League etc.—was WE10, and even that I considered something of a step backwards compared to the mythical WE9LE. So I do feel your pain.

On the other hand, I'm fairly certain I'm not making any groundbreaking philosophical insight if I say that both the emotional investment in the series, as well as the broader role of videogames in general, tend to change throughout the various stages of one's life. My passion and investment for videogames—and WE/PES in particular—has definitely ebbed since I was younger, and has only recently been reinvigorated almost singlehandedly by the amazing experience of playing The Last of Us (Remastered). Thus, differently from someone like Lami, whose Herculean efforts to support PES during the last disappointing decade quite understandably must really start to feel like a gigantic exercise in frustration, perhaps because I, as it were, “carry less baggage”, I'm able to approach the whole thing with a more optimistic, less cynical attitude. Am I just being naïve? Possibly. But I don't think it's completely panglossian to hope that, however slowly and haphazardly, things may improve. Especially now that I can finally see a glimmer of sunlight peek through the clouds. The improvements exhibited in the latest footage are orders of magnitude greater than what I expected. Those new player models, the lighting, the way the ball bounces…so good! And above all, the real clincher for me is the new locomotion system, which, despite not being flawless, looks astonishingly similar to the sort of “endgame” innovation I envisioned in my dreams. And now, out of the blue, it's a reality. HOLY SHIT, YES!! THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!! Dammit KONAMI, it has taken you fucking ages but you finally nailed it! I honestly didn't think you had it in you, you dirty old bastard…

And although the new animation system, ball physics, and graphics, are by no means a panacea for all the other problems present in the game, taken together not only do they represent a significant improvement in the here and now, but in the slightly longer term might pave the way for the fully-fledged renaissance that we have been so eagerly, obstinately, and yes, in some cases bitterly awaiting. There are signs—some big, some small, some explicit, some only hinted at—that the tides may be turning. Whether this is because the Powers That Be at KONAMI have finally started listening, or because the dev team has somehow managed to get their shit together, or simply because the wheel of fortune in PES Production's offices has landed on “more sim” for multiple years in a row, we can only speculate. Only the people “on the inside” know the truth. But if with the revolutionary locomotion system we are really witnessing the coming to fruition of a three-year cycle, as Mr. Bhatti has claimed, then perhaps for the first time in a long while there's reason to believe that, after all, there really is a plan, a guiding vision, informing development. The cynics have every right to scoff at all the hype bandwagoning (once bitten…), but if the video footage, audio podcasts, and written impressions corroborating the PR talk (!) are anything to go by, then there is a smidgen of a chance that after years of talking the talk, KONAMI has at last started actually walking the walk.

So, in conclusion, if Lami is fed up by years of hitting a brick wall and wants to “retire” for a while, let it be known that I'm able and willing to carry the torch during his leave of absence.

EDIT: goddammit—it took me so bloody long to write this shit that the sheer number of posts that have appeared in the meantime have probably rendered mine entirely obsolete

 

[Danny Henry]

Oh, piss off!

Do you have any idea how utterly absurd a claim that is? Not even considering gameplay but reach and marketing?

Yeah, all the kids play the game that is hardly even marketed and not the absolute fucking Goliath that is FIFA with its Ultimate Team and all. That isn't even me criticising FIFA, as they do well with their marketing. Is Matt a kid/casual? Is Deco? Is Chris Davies? Are the many who would browse this or other forums or feeds?

What, so you honestly think that whatever PES sells it is to kids and casuals? Explain this community and other places then; how the PES sections are always, always ticking over, and it isn't one scathing attack upon the "kids and casuals game" after another.

Ridiculous comment. Utterly, utterly ridiculous. A level of ignorance I would only expect from a tribalist fanboy or someone completely cyncical about videogames in general.

You are becoming an utter parody of yourself. Have a word.

I agree with Gabe. PES have no deph this days. Its like you does not have to have any knowlodge about football to play the game. Its a comercial pick up and play kid game imho too.

 

[curdstar]

I agree with Gabe. PES have no deph this days. Its like you does not have to have any knowlodge about football to play the game. Its a comercial pick up and play kid game imho too.

lol.

 

[*aLe]

I agree with Gabe. PES have no deph this days. Its like you does not have to have any knowlodge about football to play the game. Its a comercial pick up and play kid game imho too.

I don't agree. It might be easy to pick up (and there's nothing wrong with it) but it's pretty difficult to master if you play with manual passing and manual shooting (even better advanced shooting even if I haven't really ever managed to properly get my head around it) and advanced through balls.
Of course the average kid would just pick it up and play it at default settings, without even thinking about fiddling with the personal data... But it does have some depth if played properly: local (as in "some friends, several beers, same couch and same TV") player vs. player matches are a great joy for example.

 

[PRO_TOO]

I may add to that going into formation settings before EVERY game and setting up the team for the next battle!

Even if I tried to go straight into the match, muscle memory probably would kick in.

 

[lancers]

I don't agree. It might be easy to pick up (and there's nothing wrong with it) but it's pretty difficult to master if you play with manual passing and manual shooting (even better advanced shooting even if I haven't really ever managed to properly get my head around it) and advanced through balls.
Of course the average kid would just pick it up and play it at default settings, without even thinking about fiddling with the personal data... But it does have some depth if played properly: local (as in "some friends, several beers, same couch and same TV") player vs. player matches are a great joy for example.

I would like to play full manual but at my age (65) I find it a bit too difficult. I play PA1 Advanced Shooting and Advanced Through Balls. Depending upon how I am feeling I might play Pro or Top Player.
I find the game a bit too assisted on PA1 would like to see something a bit less helpful. While the game is not perfect I still prefer it to FIFA though there are some things I like better about 2016 and 2017 graphics not being one of them. I prefer the way PES moves and looks but I don't think the game has a chance of winning over casuals because of the licenses. I have no problem with using option files to get kits and emblems but most people just don't want to be bothered which I find strange when you consider most of these kids grew up with computers and would have no problem with the option files if they gave a few minutes to learn how they operate.

 

[Northzzz]

Woah, my scepticism is back on high-alert after watching that.

 

[Chris Davies]

Very heated in here all of a sudden - we're all passionate about the game, at least...!

It actually isn't that bad a situation when you look at it like that. Maybe now that they have confidence in their tech, they can now start to truly focus on other things.

Even I have to admit that the game is looking better now than ever before (by which I mean gameplay-wise), though I keep myself in a constant state of preparing to be disappointed so that it's not too much of a let-down (because yes, it matters that much to me) if the game hasn't fixed the stuff that's driven me bonkers for years.

That's the MAJOR frustration for me, and for a lot of us who will undoubtedly come across as entitled. I remember writing to Konami as a teenager - remember letters, anyone? Those were the days. Anyway, a few years after that, I was on here, collating a wishlist that was at least 30 bullet-points long (I still remember "fake Master League structure involving teams from different countries" and "no lower league teams" being my biggest complaints).

There are still crazy Master League decisions that are fantasy - regenerating retired footballers as 16-year-olds wearing face-masks of pensioners. More recently, years of no fouls (and yes, it could be argued we're only watching videos - but that's still evidence, and every year you read that argument, followed by "play the demo", then "the demo's not final code, play the game", followed by "let them patch it, Christ", followed by "it's only a game, does it really matter" - and it doesn't help when you get guys who walk into a conversation where 20-30 people are seeing the same thing, just to say "doesn't happen to me, you're playing the game wrong" or "you have to play with my settings or obviously it's going to be shit, dur").

I don't know what's more aggravating - the issues themselves, or the feeling that we're not being listened to. Even a response of "there are no fouls because the team's philosophy is that you're watching highlights, and it would ruin the flow we're aiming for" would be wonderful. Instead, you get conversations like the one I witnessed on Twitter earlier this week, where someone makes a comment about wanting their community to be heard, only to receive the response "so you're saying abuse and racism is alright, then". Out of nowhere.

I'm not aware of any other social media team that responds so - maybe not "aggressively"... But it feels like they're always ready to fight arsehole with arsehole. (I've been blocked by Asim before now, because he tweeted that he hoped nobody bought Fallout 4 as it was "so broken" - after PES released with the previous season's squads, which wasn't corrected for months - and when I pointed out that I thought that was a label you could fairly apply to that PES release, he was instantly on the offensive - this was BEFORE he even worked for Konami...)

HOWEVER - you can't ignore the leaps and bounds the game appears to have made. It looks like something special - which I think, for some of us, just adds to that frustration of "just X and Y are the problems now"...

It's that feeling of "if we could communicate with the developers directly about these long-standing complaints, could we have something that's close to the perfect game?" Plus, "do we really have to wait another year until X thing that stopped me playing 2017 will be changed?" It feels like a waste, almost. (But that IS an expectant comment, I'll grant you...)

It'll be better than PES 2018 whatever happens. I just hope that, this year, maybe they'll consider patching gameplay based on feedback rather than just committing to bug fixes.

 

[Northzzz]

I'm not aware of any other social media team that responds so - maybe not "aggressively"... But it feels like they're always ready to fight arsehole with arsehole. (I've been blocked by Asim before now, because he tweeted that he hoped nobody bought Fallout 4 as it was "so broken" - after PES released with the previous season's squads, which wasn't corrected for months - and when I pointed out that I felt that was unfair, he was instantly on the attack.)

I've never contacted them myself but I think 'condescending' is the right word. Then again, I think their social media team exists with the sole intention of marketing the product as it is. I certainly don't think it's anything other than lip service when they suggest they want genuine opinions or feedback. From my actual experience working in social media marketing, companies like to put out this type of stuff to get good opinions which they can then use as positive promotion. The idea is to keep it fresh in people's mind that PES 2018 is being seen in a positive light. It's also why they'll have invited Youtubers to the recent event, who help spread the message further.

Not intended as a criticism of the game itself of course.

Edit: I can't believe you wrote a letter complaining about the fantasy style European leagues. That was one of my favourite features of old PES

 

[zeemeister]

Phew lots of anger here today chaps. Hang in there till we have played it before we write it off.

We seem to start on this negative side wanting the game to fix what we deem wrong with it.

Back in the day we accepted that despite its flaws it still was a great game.

I enjoyed 2017 and still do but have not had much time lately so I am a little optimistic about things for 2018

Regarding shooting, basic setting does need a lot more variation and contextual improvement which based on the videos we may not see in 2018 but if I feel so strongly about it I would try the other settings.

The inconsistency in the games difficulty/enjoyment stems from the pass and shoot settings that have been changed to cater for different players. As a result, there is an imbalance in the challenge the game presents because no games dev builds a game to cater for all the different user settings. The pass accuracy of a player sliding a ball should not be consistently the same as a player having time to pick out a pass yet PES now allows this because it wants to be accessible to a larger and more importantly younger fan base.

It's for this reason as well that you find playing online or offline multi-player for that matter you are not really seeing which player is more skilled at the game but who is more accustomed to their own style or the games default settings. Yes sliders could work but again adding another element to tweak to try and find football utopia is just going to give you a nose bleed.

 

[creimer]

catch-up bug is out (11:58 video)

 

[Deco]

I've been waiting all day for someone to say "Calm down. . calm down" with a scouse accent.

 

[Northzzz]

The inconsistency in the games difficulty/enjoyment stems from the pass and shoot settings that have been changed to cater for different players. As a result, there is an imbalance in the challenge the game presents because no games dev builds a game to cater for all the different user settings. The pass accuracy of a player sliding a ball should not be consistently the same as a player having time to pick out a pass yet PES now allows this because it wants to be accessible to a larger and more importantly younger fan base.

Good post on the whole, especially this part which was the reason for my response to the video a few posts above.

Essentially, all of the game looks great, good or is easily forgivable with the exception of passing as far as I can see. I don't know why passing being less than absolutely clinical is anathema to PES right now but it seemingly is. It's such a major part of the game which markedly decreases the challenge, something that's important for anybody planning on playing it for more than two weeks.

Even a slight alteration like FIFA's semi option would make it better.

Edit: obviously there's manual but it's kind of all or nothing

 

[Topaz]

catch-up bug is out (11:58 video)

Eh more like a missing animation of getting shoved out.

 

[Bond!JamesBond!]

Sorry, but it was "basic" in the old PS1 days, and there was variation (@Matt10 put a video on Twitter earlier today to demonstrate this). I tend not to reference the old games because - as I've said multiple times - PES 2017 is the best PES they've ever made, in my view, and I don't agree with all the "WE9LE was better" etc. statements. But we had more shot variety, without needing a manual mode.

This is another one of those "well I play on manual so it's your fault assisted passing is broken" moments - sorry but that's not an excuse. If you set up the game by default to use basic shooting, it needs to have enough variety to produce a range of goals.

You've got your advanced shooting and that's great, you don't have a complaint about that. I've got a complaint about basic shooting, and it's valid.

I'm not expecting the earth, here - I just want to see shots that aren't so perfectly hit, that don't tend to go into the top corner. Variety, that's all - and more sense from strikers with higher finishing stats.

i didn't understand what you all meant about not enough shooting variety, but that's because i never use basic and was thinking about manual shooting.
i thought about manual shooting and if it's got enough variety. IRL you shoot with power foot straight on the laces and open foot for placement with less power.
then if your player is in good body possession plus player statistics determines the accuracy of shot.
then analog movement gives all possible angles.
all these calculations added together brings a true lifelike shoot.
manual shooting has all of this, so is truly the most realistic and simulation way to shoot. IMO.

 

[PES94]

i didn't understand what you all meant about not enough shooting variety, but that's because i never use basic and was thinking about manual shooting.
i thought about manual shooting and if it's got enough variety. IRL you shoot with power foot straight on the laces and open foot for placement with less power.
then if your player is in good body possession plus player statistics determines the accuracy of shot.
then analog movement gives all possible angles.
all these calculations added together brings a true lifelike shoot.
manual shooting has all of this, so is truly the most realistic and simulation way to shoot. IMO.

Shooting variety as in balancing both legs equally when shooting, based on where the ball is. A sliding shot would be nice as well.

 

[Lami]

Lami that was great . . . you're hilarious when you're angry Lol. . .. ."I can sit here and tell you who will post what in detail" .. . so true and so funny.. . . .I understand your frustrations totally.

Not the first time I heard that, heh.

 

[Lami]

I rarely post these days, but I feel like I have to express my own opinion, since so many people are frustrated more than ever.
PES was something special, back in the day, because the other game sucked so hard it wasnt very difficult to shine through it.
But, even though, PES was insanely good at the start of the PS2 era, the game kept on improving. We all know that PES 5/6 were far from perfect games, but what they did with the tech they had in hand, was nothing short of impressive. The game was fun and the game is fun even today. The AI of the game worked and nothing more than that, games are far more complex now.
The times have changes, we grew older and we kept this memory of PS2 PES in our minds on such a high "mountain" that I believe for anyone to climb over it, is barely possible.
PES has to be fun and if the devs are referring to their game as realistic or striving for realism, then they have something completely different in mind, not simulation.
Fun, Authenticity, Realism, these three pillars are what makes a great footie game. Sim as what we want, will not. It might be fun for some, but for the majority it wont be and Pro Evo has to sell copies.
We can get frustrated every year, that what we want from Pro Evo is still not there, but whats the point? We aren't making the game, Pro Evo is a AAA title made in a corporate atmosphere, its not an indie title, its development isn't open to the public, because its an yearly release. They stick to their vision for the year and they work on it. If changes are possible, they will do them, but we all know what can happen when they change something.
What KONAMI can do to satisfy us a little bit, is to offer us ways to modify our gameplay experience, either will new tactical settings, or smth similar to FIFA's sliders, etc.

They can do what they want, just stop calling it realistic so I don't have certain expectations. And since that would be their vision, just give me sliders and I'll shut up.

 

[zeemeister]

They can do what they want, just stop calling it realistic so I don't have certain expectations. And since that would be their vision, just give me sliders and I'll shut up.

There you go

 

[Lami]

What on earth are you blethering on about with political correctness? It's called communication and etiquette.

What if I told you right now that what you posted was the biggest load of entitled shite I have read, but then I say I still respect you and all that you are doing?

What is your instinct after that?

What are you focussing on? Me saying you are talking shite, or me saying I respect you? Both maybe true, may be my opinion, but would what are you thinking regards how you would look to communicate with me after that?

Go tell Konami directly that they make a tennis game in football clothes and immediately then ask them to consider your ideas? See where that gets you, as a representative of a community or otherwise.

Please go direct your etiquette lesson at Asim. That guy needs it more than anyone

 

[Lami]

Yeah, you NEVER see players kick a ball with a weaker foot, EVER.

I have never ever ever ever heard a commentator/analyst/a friend/myself essentially say, for example, while watching a real match: "Fuck me what a strike! His wrong foot as well!"

Exactly. There's a surprise to it. But when every player in the game can strike with both feet accurately?

 

[Lami]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Konami is showing whole heap of signs of being overly confident this year.
No embargos. Showing many images of faces themselves (via Adam Bhatti or Asim). Allowing the fans to record or capture whatever they want. Releasing an OPEN BETA this early and later on the Demo. That shows they actually trust what they've been working on and, judging by what the people who played it are saying, Konami's not wrong for behaving like this. They are comfortable because they have reasons to be.

Not too long ago they would hide as much as they could until Gamescom. And they had reasons for that too. Please remember that.

Been there before chuny. Been there before.

 

[Bond!JamesBond!]

Woah, my scepticism is back on high-alert after watching that.

why? What's turned you off?
Positive side i see fouls.

 

[zeemeister]

Bloody hell game prices have skyrocketed..
So if I pay this crazy pre order price about 3 months later there is a free myclub mode that's going to bugger up the servers so that I can't play online again for the next 6 months?

 

[Lami]

Look at all these sim goals. Even one near post smash with the weak foot and a top corner screamer off balance. Again, I'm not claiming the shooting is perfect, it isn't but the old games are far too fondly remembered.

If you played it, you should know all too well how weak foot shots were very hit and miss, like they should be and stats mattered. Body positioning and defenders pressuring affected shooting as well. This hasn't been the case with current gen pes.

And for the tech back then, this game played very well, and had much less issues than we do now.