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PES 2012 PC Demo talk

Srider said:
I've said this many times before, and this is the same problem in older PES as well.

The key reason why speed feels off in the game is because Konami continuously fail to capture the turning speed and acceleration of players from stand still with or without the ball.

When players beat defenders and use speed to create space, there are two general cases.

1) The defender is beaten facing away from his own goal.
2) The defender is beaten facing towards his own goal (or partly).

In case 1, and you see this happen in real like such as Ronaldo on a break away. When the defender is not running towards his own goal and he is beaten, the amount of time it takes for him to turn and then accelerate from a stand still is multiple times longer than case 2.

This is why you see defenders turn and start running towards his own goal, so if he is beaten by pace of the attacking ball carrier, he can accelerate much quicker since he is already traveling in the same direction as the ball carrier.

In PES games, player acceleration does not the direction of the player into account, this is why even if you beat a defender, he can accelerate as if he is already facing the same direction as the ball carrier, so even with fast players, you can not create the amount of space that is possible in real life.

But this problem is compounded by the still poor defensive AI in the game. When teams play tight, it is hard for the ball carrier to use pace because in order to run fast, you must kick the ball further out. In a tight zonal defense, doing so will result in another defender kicking the ball away. PES defensive AI is a very simplified and unfaithful version of this system, where instead of defenders creating "funnels" to force the ball carrier, its the closest defender running forward to do a 1v1 against the ball carrier, thus breaking the shape, and failing to achieve what it was designed to do.


It's as if Konami thinks that adjusting speed of the players running speed will make the game more true to life, when what they need to do is to rework the Team AI as a whole, and as player individuals, both on the offensive and defensive side.
Click to expand...

This guy got it right, and it seems like no one heard him.

His analisys of the problem is the best out there because he's comparing how the game should behave with real life football, instead of comparing it with ideal/more fluid gameplay mechanics.

I finally got used to defending in PES, but then again, as much as I adapt, it still goes against a few fundamental real life defending concepts.

But I gotta tell you, once I zoomed the camera away, it brought another dimension to the game, and it will become enjoyable once I can fully edit it.
 
Srider said:
I've said this many times before...
This is why you see defenders turn and start running towards his own goal, so if he is beaten by pace of the attacking ball carrier, he can accelerate much quicker since he is already traveling in the same direction as the ball carrier.

In PES games, player acceleration does not the direction of the player into account, this is why even if you beat a defender, he can accelerate as if he is already facing the same direction as the ball carrier, so even with fast players, you can not create the amount of space that is possible in real life.

But this problem is compounded by the still poor defensive AI in the game. When teams play tight, it is hard for the ball carrier to use pace because in order to run fast, you must kick the ball further out. In a tight zonal defense, doing so will result in another defender kicking the ball away. PES defensive AI is a very simplified and unfaithful version of this system, where instead of defenders creating "funnels" to force the ball carrier, its the closest defender running forward to do a 1v1 against the ball carrier, thus breaking the shape, and failing to achieve what it was designed to do.


It's as if Konami thinks that adjusting speed of the players running speed will make the game more true to life, ...
Click to expand...

You are right. But what do you think how easy the game would be then?
They keep the balance between realism an arcade just right imho.
This demo is the best PES so far!
BTW, i think it's in the game - here a short video where i fooled a defender facing my goal who was not able to follow immediately

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_UZ4s9W60]AI defender with back to his goal.[/url]
 
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Lami said:
On another note, I've just installed Camera tweak and changed the angle to 300 on the Pitch side cam.

Lovely.
Click to expand...

Lami, are your other pitch cam settings at default, or can you share those as well? Looking forward to trying the new angle tonight.
 
About the freekick, it's way too easy to score if you use a second player to set up the main kicker. I've tried 5 times so far, and the success rate has been 100%. I can see it being exploited if it's not changed in the full game.
 
kernel32 said:
About the freekick, it's way too easy to score if you use a second player to set up the main kicker. I've tried 5 times so far, and the success rate has been 100%. I can see it being exploited if it's not changed in the full game.
Click to expand...

true but then mean's player should be more cautious of giving away FK's as often
 
kernel32 said:
About the freekick, it's way too easy to score if you use a second player to set up the main kicker. I've tried 5 times so far, and the success rate has been 100%. I can see it being exploited if it's not changed in the full game.
Click to expand...

It feels like cheating when you use a guy like Hulk to take those powerful free kicks.I must have scored about 10 free kick since last night
 
cubby said:
Lami, are your other pitch cam settings at default, or can you share those as well? Looking forward to trying the new angle tonight.
Click to expand...

Yea mate they're on default, only touched the angle setting. I'm thinking of changing cam settings to zoom in more. Needs more testing time.
 
Hmm, not going to make my judgements too quick but this demo feels weird at the moment, and the goalkeepers problems are really offputting, going to play it religiously over the next few days and give a proper opinion then.
 
AlaaEG said:
I am used to jockey also but the AI just keeps pushing me backward then when I try to stop the AI player from advancing he goes past me with ease!
Click to expand...

Same. I'll jockey him backwards until the point where there's simply no room to jockey him any longer and i need to make a challenge for the ball. Far too often he'll ghost past me and it feels like there's no trepedation on the part of the attacker, just the defender.

All i can say is that in football it's easier to defend than it is to attack and score. That is why good forwards who can unlock doors are so well sought after and often wages reflect that. I really don't want a situation a la PES 6 where i felt it was so much easier to attack than it was to defend. Often just the presence of a defender is enough to put off an attacker. I'm not seeing that here though but i'm willing to accept i only have a couple of hours experience. I'm not really struggling by any means, it's just that at some point in the match i'll get into a situation where i cannot defend even with the best defenders through normal ways.
 
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aitk3n said:
true but then mean's player should be more cautious of giving away FK's as often
Click to expand...

yes but it's just too easy to commit soft fouls in this game, almost Pes5ish. Basically any free kick 16-25m from goal is like a penalty. It can't be right. I even scored with a goalkeeper lol. In Pes2011, there'd be always 1 or 2 player rushing towards you to block the shot if you try to do set-up freekicks. Anyway, I'll wait to judge the full game.
 
Freekicks seem to be easier due to the ball physics. But goalkeepers are helping quite a bit, because they're reacting late to shots overall, freekicks included.
 
Did anybody find a way to save your personal data settings so that you don't have to keep re-doing them after every match?
 
After playing like 20 match, i'm not convinced at all with PES 2012, when i try it for first time, obviously i saw a change since 2011, but time to time i start to notice that the change was not so radical, and what konami did was only put some sparkles to the 2011 base (a little fluid movements and ai attack and defend) and not a global change.

About the people that they says that is a issue of tastes that some people love or hate 2012, i'll like to hear if someone hate PES 6, because that's the sensation that 2012 i've waited to give to me, love it 100% (like PES6)

But until Konami don't recover the supposed key programmers that went to work to EA (that's rumors) or do something 100% new, this next-gen engine is damned, not like the glorious PS2 one.

I hope the final code change the game a lot, if not, i will continue to play Shollym 2012 patch, that is a true example of evolution.
 
Tell you what for all my qualms about defending i've just had a situation which doesn't help to alleviate the issue or suggest that i haven't learned how to defend yet. K.P Boateng is dribbling towards goal so i jockey with Ferdinand for about 10 yards. He's about 20 yards out and passes the ball straight forward to Ibra who is unmarked 5 yards out from goal basically just in front of the penalty spot. VIDIC WAS STANDING 4 YARDS TO THE SIDE OF HIM NOWHERE NEAR ANYBODY ELSE AND DIDN'T ATTEMPT TO MARK HIM. That's just terrible AI. No marking whatsoever despite the obvious threat. It's not a case of not putting on man-marking. In that situation Vidic should pick to mark the obvious threat, not allow him to stand unmarked. This didn't happen in an instant either, there was a lot of time to move over to Ibra. Watching the replay back, Vidic is about 5 yards behind the next defender and unnecessarilly playing Ibra onside by doing so. Geez.

Here's a picture. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/vidicibra.png/

Also half the problem with jockeying is that defenders get stuck jockeying backwards at a certain speed and you can't really jockey BACKWARDS whilst closing them down at the same time. You jockey backwards as fast as they dribble forwards so they're always the same distance gap between you unless you hold the tackle button in which case they can then go past you as they so often do. I need to be able to jockey slower backwards so the guy dribbles towards me and the gap between us becomes incrementally smaller until i'm at a distance where i feel comfortable going for the tackle. I don't always want to go forward into the tackle but this seems to be the only option at current for getting closer to the dribbler.
 
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Well m loving it, great phisics, Collisions, animations and AI is quite challenging...dunnow for you guys but, i can't play PES 2011 anymore i guess...this is muuch better.
Looking forward for the Final Build demo.
 
fbuttem said:
After playing like 20 match, i'm not convinced at all with PES 2012, when i try it for first time, obviously i saw a change since 2011, but time to time i start to notice that the change was not so radical, and what konami did was only put some sparkles to the 2011 base (a little fluid movements and ai attack and defend) and not a global change.

About the people that they says that is a issue of tastes that some people love or hate 2012, i'll like to hear if someone hate PES 6, because that's the sensation that 2012 i've waited to give to me, love it 100% (like PES6)

But until Konami don't recover the supposed key programmers that went to work to EA (that's rumors) or do something 100% new, this next-gen engine is damned, not like the glorious PS2 one.

I hope the final code change the game a lot, if not, i will continue to play Shollym 2012 patch, that is a true example of evolution.
Click to expand...

I liked PES6 back then, but not to the extent of loving it 100%. I thought PES3 and 5 were better games. I also enjoyed WE10 much more than PES6.
 
fbuttem said:
After playing like 20 match, i'm not convinced at all with PES 2012, when i try it for first time, obviously i saw a change since 2011, but time to time i start to notice that the change was not so radical, and what konami did was only put some sparkles to the 2011 base (a little fluid movements and ai attack and defend) and not a global change.

About the people that they says that is a issue of tastes that some people love or hate 2012, i'll like to hear if someone hate PES 6, because that's the sensation that 2012 i've waited to give to me, love it 100% (like PES6)

But until Konami don't recover the supposed key programmers that went to work to EA (that's rumors) or do something 100% new, this next-gen engine is damned, not like the glorious PS2 one.

I hope the final code change the game a lot, if not, i will continue to play Shollym 2012 patch, that is a true example of evolution.
Click to expand...

+1.
Just like (almost) every year eversince PES 2008, the initial excitement is now gone, vanished.

The first 3 matches I was like ":CONFUSE: damn, this PES is really good".

After 10 matches I was like ":BLINK: Hmmm... something smells a little fishy here."

After 30-some matches I'm like ":TTTH: Errr.... it is definetely wrong, annoying and at times it's even un-enjoyable."


Back to FIFA 11 now.
 
I find those skillful dribblers (Hulk, Pato, Robinho, Neymar, Lavezzi, Hamsik...) a bit overpowered when used by AI on Top Player. Sometimes you just can't stop them, literally CAN'T stop them. And defenders don't make it better. Sometimes they refuse to make sliding tackle, or even try to take the ball from opposition player, no matter what am I pressing. And no, I am not rushing with R1+X. Hold up play makes it easier, but it's still very difficult to defend against those players.
 
I supposed I'll be getting a lot of them "It's just a demo" stupid kind of excuses now, right?.
 
dribbling is pretty hard for me now, most of the time unsuccessful. maybe I shouldn't play with keyboard and it's time to change. other people with keyboards, what's you experience of dribbling?
 
Northzzz said:
Tell you what for all my qualms about defending i've just had a situation which doesn't help to alleviate the issue or suggest that i haven't learned how to defend yet. K.P Boateng is dribbling towards goal so i jockey with Ferdinand for about 10 yards. He's about 20 yards out and passes the ball straight forward to Ibra who is unmarked 5 yards out from goal basically just in front of the penalty spot. VIDIC WAS STANDING 4 YARDS TO THE SIDE OF HIM NOWHERE NEAR ANYBODY ELSE AND DIDN'T ATTEMPT TO MARK HIM. That's just terrible AI. No marking whatsoever despite the obvious threat. It's not a case of not putting on man-marking. In that situation Vidic should pick to mark the obvious threat, not allow him to stand unmarked. This didn't happen in an instant either, there was a lot of time to move over to Ibra. Watching the replay back, Vidic is about 5 yards behind the next defender and unnecessarilly playing Ibra onside by doing so. Geez.

Here's a picture. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/vidicibra.png/

Also half the problem with jockeying is that defenders get stuck jockeying backwards at a certain speed and you can't really jockey BACKWARDS whilst closing them down at the same time. You jockey backwards as fast as they dribble forwards so they're always the same distance gap between you unless you hold the tackle button in which case they can then go past you as they so often do. I need to be able to jockey slower backwards so the guy dribbles towards me and the gap between us becomes incrementally smaller until i'm at a distance where i feel comfortable going for the tackle. I don't always want to go forward into the tackle but this seems to be the only option at current for getting closer to the dribbler.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. Defending should get some improvements to hold attackers from advancing easily.
 
Northzzz said:
Tell you what for all my qualms about defending i've just had a situation which doesn't help to alleviate the issue or suggest that i haven't learned how to defend yet. K.P Boateng is dribbling towards goal so i jockey with Ferdinand for about 10 yards. He's about 20 yards out and passes the ball straight forward to Ibra who is unmarked 5 yards out from goal basically just in front of the penalty spot. VIDIC WAS STANDING 4 YARDS TO THE SIDE OF HIM NOWHERE NEAR ANYBODY ELSE AND DIDN'T ATTEMPT TO MARK HIM. That's just terrible AI. No marking whatsoever despite the obvious threat. It's not a case of not putting on man-marking. In that situation Vidic should pick to mark the obvious threat, not allow him to stand unmarked. This didn't happen in an instant either, there was a lot of time to move over to Ibra. Watching the replay back, Vidic is about 5 yards behind the next defender and unnecessarilly playing Ibra onside by doing so. Geez.

Here's a picture. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/vidicibra.png/

Also half the problem with jockeying is that defenders get stuck jockeying backwards at a certain speed and you can't really jockey BACKWARDS whilst closing them down at the same time. You jockey backwards as fast as they dribble forwards so they're always the same distance gap between you unless you hold the tackle button in which case they can then go past you as they so often do. I need to be able to jockey slower backwards so the guy dribbles towards me and the gap between us becomes incrementally smaller until i'm at a distance where i feel comfortable going for the tackle. I don't always want to go forward into the tackle but this seems to be the only option at current for getting closer to the dribbler.
Click to expand...

I think it's a combination of the R2 burst and the CPU being too good on top player. It seems like Konami have listened to the "it's too easy" complaints and given the CPU more chance to choose the "right" option. It's like it knows exactly when you are going to stop jockeying and start closing down, so it just does that burst shimmy thing and you are beaten. The burst move is way overpowered. Some of the angles the computer is using this move, it's like it knows everything perfect. Once humans start to learn how to use it, it's gonna be even harder to defend glitchers etc. It's very frustrating at the moment, try and time your tackle and Robinho/Ibra/Hulk just walk past you easy, or you back off and the smash it in from 25 yards. It does feel impossible to defend at times.
 
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