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PES 2011 Discussion thread

romagnoli said:
Wholeheartedly disagree that L1 run triggers are the solution. It omits player personality from the equation, which would be a shocking state of affairs for PES. As has been said, L1 triggering in FIFA is a band-aid for poor AI. The movement in PES is fundamentally better even if it turns out after a few months of play that this is still an issue. If this was the case then the solution is to improve the AI's responsiveness to tactics and the situation at hand. An L1 trigger in PES would unavoidably be a band-aid for poor tactics and I'm dead against that. It really would give PES the always forward attacking problem you see in FIFA regardless of whether the players are tired as a exult simply because people really would just bludgeon their way forward.

The closest I could ever come to a compromise is for your trigger button to 'request' that a player makes some sort of movement, but the direction and speed of the movement being based on the player you're triggering rather than being a uniform sprint up the pitch. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks so but getting Demichelis or Badstuber to make the same runs as Robben or Muller would be utter bullshit and make a massive part of the game completely impotent. It soul be the PES equivalent of a severe stroke.
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this is why i belive setting the arrows worked so well before, you set where and the frequency of the runs you would like your player to make, and then the players stats influenced how good/bad and often this took place. the two vids i posted above have been happening in every game.

i dont even want to have to tell a player to make a run by pressing L1 i just want him to react to the situation and if do so, which used to be the case.
 
I said it before on my site (not plugging it btw) that I would hate for Pro-Evo to have a run trigger button, for me a player on the pitch like Scholes can't say "Ok, Nani, Valencia, Rooney, you all make forward runs now and I will decide how to perfectly lay it on for you, I agree the current method needs some tweaking or thorough examining how to make it work a little better but the goal I posted with Xavi on the break, I wish I could have captured that on wide cam because I was almost like Germany ripping England on the break for the Muller goal, the movement was immense.

I do think if you are a central midfielder and the winger is right on line with you he should look to exploit the space more though, but please no run trigger, it should be coded for that individuality, if its not on 2011 make sure your feedback goes to good use. :)
 
I also say don't be afraid to use the newer passing by playing it into space ahead of the player because they do bust a gut to get there.
 
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romagnoli said:
The closest I could ever come to a compromise is for your trigger button to 'request' that a player makes some sort of movement, but the direction and speed of the movement being based on the player you're triggering rather than being a uniform sprint up the pitch. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks so but getting Demichelis or Badstuber to make the same runs as Robben or Muller would be utter bullshit and make a massive part of the game completely impotent. It soul be the PES equivalent of a severe stroke.
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You're not the only one, I just wrote that ;)

I think it would work well, but I'm not sure I want the request to be just for the player you are aiming for like it is in FIFA. More like a global request, just like in real life when a player have the ball and hold out his arms to show that he doesn't have any options and want people to move.
 
DarthKebab said:
I said it before on my site (not plugging it btw) that I would hate for Pro-Evo to have a run trigger button, for me a player on the pitch like Scholes can't say "Ok, Nani, Valencia, Rooney, you all make forward runs now and I will decide how to perfectly lay it on for you, I agree the current method needs some tweaking or thorough examining how to make it work a little better but the goal I posted with Xavi on the break, I wish I could have captured that on wide cam because I was almost like Germany ripping England on the break for the Muller goal, the movement was immense.

I do think if you are a central midfielder and the winger is right on line with you he should look to exploit the space more though, but please no run trigger, it should be coded for that individuality, if its not on 2011 make sure your feedback goes to good use. :)
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but in real life if scholes picks it up there would be differing runs being made, rooney may stand till or drop deep, the wingers knowing scholes' ability would be off, or maybe come short and rafael would be over lappping

look at the lb in this video, there's no excuse for his movement here.

YouTube - Video018
 
danyjr said:
Movement still doesn't feel 360 at all. I can't believe Konami put 360 movement as a feature since last year. How can you get away with lying so badly?

Defending is terrible. Ping-pong passing is definitely there. Defenders fail to close down on simple balls passing them, even let the balls pass through their legs frequently. Terrible indeed.

Ridiculously scored goals as there are hundreds of them on youtube so I'm not going to explain any further.
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Hmmm. Gonna have to wait till I get my hands on the demo to know for sure if this is the game for me as there has certainly been a mix of impressions. Some good, and some bad. I won`t force myself to like the game though. Done with that shit. I need to be wowed. If I`m not I`ll easily pass as there are other things that can hold my interest.
 
Ah yes you did Gab! Got tunnel vision there...

I agree that, at most, it should just be a communication of sorts with your team. If you can tell players who are bad at making runs to make runs, then he is no longer bad at making runs. Therefore the players who are good at making runs no longer become a useful asset to look for in Master League.

Edit: the number of directions of movement is plenty. It's either less than FIFA or it flows from one direction to the next less seamlessly than FIFA, I'm not sure which. Bottom line though, it's much better than the beta and is certainly something you can call 360 (accepting that neither football game has 360 controls nor do they need them for us to get the same fundamental benefit).
 
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Still no news about master league offline? I heard there's managers in it now, but that's about it. Only thing i can see being added is managers to master league. So over time when different ones get sacked etc.. teams will totally change their shape depending on their manager. Heard nothing else so I'm assuming it's the same (which is fine since the one on PES 2010 was unbelievably good)
 
Simple impression: Best football videogame ever made. Not without its flaws wich will become more apparent as time goes by, but nevertheless, great, great job Konami! Thank you.
 
Just try your support range as 20 for example to see if your wingers, full backs were supporting, just tried with Internacional and it was working ok for me.
 
Support range is about spacing, right? I think the better one is Attacking Style. It means that if you have the ball on the left then your team will advance more on the left. If you have it towards the right, your right hand side will advance.
 
fernadez said:
but in real life if scholes picks it up there would be differing runs being made, rooney may stand till or drop deep, the wingers knowing scholes' ability would be off, or maybe come short and rafael would be over lappping

look at the lb in this video, there's no excuse for his movement here.

YouTube - Video018
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Your making some really valid points and after playing the demo now for two days im starting to become a little concerned with the teamate ai and general off the ball movement of my team.

Its not only going forward its also in other areas of the pitch with my teamates off the ball being very static and fixed and also at times not reacting at all to the ball,however offensive i make the settings.

This is one area fifa is very strong in and these shortcomings are very noticable when going back to fifa.Fifa just feels so much more alive and your teamates off the ball complement your on the ball movement with supporting options,forward runs and a mariade of other clever movements in all areas of the pitch.

For all the advances pes2011 has and they are welcome and excellent you are left with a overiding feeling that the ais not very smart.I dont think a simple button command to trigger a advanced run is the answer because its in all areas of the pitch where the ai just doesnt seem right.

Pes2011 also feels devoid of any player personality and hunger they just come across as lifeless zombies that have stat differences but no real visible differences in there behaviour or runs on the pitch,its all a bit samey.

Still a cracking demo and a big step up for pes but IMO its still along way behind fifa interms of intelligent off the ball movement.

Keepers also parry the ball to much to incoming forwards,refs blow up every time a player nudges you,the players still feel a bit sticky and stiff and from time to time there are delays when the player is trying to release a shot or pass.
 
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I'd love to play around with the tactical options, but I would begin to get pissed off at having to set them up all over again every time you play a match - I assume you can't save formations and tactics in the demo?
 
Rob92 said:
I'd love to play around with the tactical options, but I would begin to get pissed off at having to set them up all over again every time you play a match - I assume you can't save formations and tactics in the demo?
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just hold select and press triangle til the attack meter goes to full attack, youll notice a big difference with the full backs attacking then press R2 with select for all out defend, there are 3 levels of each to use its really a simple way to attack and defend during the game
 
romagnoli said:
Support range is about spacing, right? I think the better one is Attacking Style. It means that if you have the ball on the left then your team will advance more on the left. If you have it towards the right, your right hand side will advance.
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Support Range, if it's the first slider, dictates how quick and how many of your team-mates look to get ahead of the ball when your in possession. I play alot with Internacional, and they are 3-5-2 by default which is my preferred formation. I set my Support Range to 18-19 and my Compactness to 18-19, and set one of my preset on-the-fly tactics to Quick Counter. This works perfect for my style of play. I always have plenty of options on the flanks and through the middle.

For me, one of the best implementations in PES 2010 was the through-ball and how it replicates perfectly the fundementals. Obviously in hindsight there was so much less freedom compared to PES 2011, but the philosophy was still the same. It's all about split second timing. Unlike previous old gen PES games, the ball doesnt just magically find your player, using cheating AI intervention to make sure it finds your player, by this I mean blatently moving your opponents player off track. Now, if you see the pass, just like real-life, you have that split second to initiate the pass. If you miss that window of opportunity, it's gone, and you start again. If you delay, there is a good chance if the runner doesnt check his run slightly (like the Chivas striker does in my video for the goal) then he'll run offside. Timing is key, weight, precision and direction come next.
 
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Expander said:
Your making some really valid points and after playing the demo now for two days im starting to become a little concerned with the teamate ai and general off the ball movement of my team.

Its not only going forward its also in other areas of the pitch with my teamates off the ball being very static and fixed and also at times not reacting at all to the ball,however offensive i make the settings.

This is one area fifa is very strong in and these shortcomings are very noticable when going back to fifa.Fifa just feels so much more alive and your teamates off the ball complement your on the ball movement with supporting options,forward runs and a mariade of other clever movements in all areas of the pitch.

For all the advances pes2011 has and they are welcome and excellent you are left with a overiding feeling that the ais not very smart.I dont think a simple button command to trigger a advanced run is the answer because its in all areas of the pitch where the ai just doesnt seem right.

Pes2011 also feels devoid of any player personality and hunger they just come across as lifeless zombies that have stat differences but no real visible differences in there behaviour or runs on the pitch,its all a bit samey.

Still a cracking demo and a big step up for pes but IMO its still along way behind fifa interms of intelligent off the ball movement.
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:CONFUSE:

Play with your tactics, I honestly cant believe you have just said that. :CONFUSE:


Edit - Maybe it's because I gained a huge understanding of the tactics, strategies, and Player Cards in PES 2010 in my ML campaigns, but either way, the level of AI options is frightening in PES 2010 and PES 2011. If your not seeing this, your missing out on such a grand scale with regards the depth of these titles. Massively. I'm still in shock. :CONFUSE:
 
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am one of the few yet to play

am i reading right that you assign a skill ie l2 and down right thumbstick for a say a drag back

and can i do seperate ones for each team mate?
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
:CONFUSE:

Play with your tactics, I honestly cant believe you have just said that. :CONFUSE:


Edit - Maybe it's because I gained a huge understanding of the tactics, strategies, and Player Cards in PES 2010 in my ML campaigns, but either way, the level of AI options is frightening in PES 2010 and PES 2011. If your not seeing this, your missing out on such a grand scale with regards the depth of these titles. Massively. I'm still in shock. :CONFUSE:
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I know what your saying jimmy and its still a top game,but,by default your teamate ai should still adhere to basic rudamentry off the ball behaviour,irrespective of player cards and tactics.

Im not just talking about forward runs,im talking about support,making space,moving away from the opposition player to give you a option,filling gaps,reading danger and reacting intelligently to the ebb and flow of the game,not just reacting to the ball when it falls into there zone and triggers that said players ai.

Its only something you really notice after playing alot of fifa jimmy and unfortunetly pes2011 is still along way behind fifa in this regard.You also have a lot of tatical depth in fifa to and can tweak your stratergy,after all ea did create the slider system,however even in a standard default setting the ai in fifa is still way ahead of pes2011.Without blowing my trumpet this is my field of work ai,and the differences are huge.
 
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When it comes to Messi on this game there are some things which i find very strange. He's the cover star but for some reason Konami have put much more effort into other players it seems.

His unique dribbling animation is still in but because the preset one he's been given dosen't suit him (he's too crouched when running) he just looks odd.

Konami need to update the current OF or database and make sure he's given another movement set, one he's standing up more. He has great balance and there are animations in this game to greatly reflect his movements but he's currently using the wrong ones!

Also about the player runs! I don't see an issue here. It's all about the player. With fifa you just tap a button and the nearest player sprints forward immediately. tap it 5-6 times half your team runs forward. Since the game is all about counters and lighting fast play with need to set up your team you get used to it. People are having a hard time adapting and learning to spot runs!

That's not what PES is about! You need to use your footballing brain and look for runs ahead, probe and conserve possession until a opportunity arrives. PES isn't Attack, attack, attack fast like FIFA. You need to build attacks properly!

The videos fenadez has uploaded show me that really he needs to forget about just waiting for one player to make a run, instead he should look around at all his teammates to probe.
 
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Expander said:
I know what your saying jimmy and its still a top gun,but,by default your teamate ai should still adhere to basic rudamentry off the ball behaviour,irrespective of player cards and tactics.

Im not just talking about forward runs,im talking about support,making space,moving away from the opposition player to give you a option,filling gaps,reading danger and reacting intelligently to the ebb and flow of the game,not just reacting to the ball when it falls into there zone and triggers that said players ai.

Its only something you really notice after playing alot of fifa jimmy and unfortunetly pes2011 is still along way behind fifa in this regard.You also have a lot of tatical depth in fifa to and can tweak your stratergy,after all ea did create the slider system,however even in a standard default setting the ai in fifa is still way ahead of pes2011.Without blowing my trumpet this is my field of work ai,and the differences are huge.
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I cant comment on Fifa, but what I do know is that I have never seen anything like the level of control you can have in this regard on a football game. Also, if EA possess that level of understanding with regards AI, then I'm incredibly suprised. In fact, my face looks like this. :CONFUSE:

We can agree to disagree, because I'll never buy into that statement.

Back on topic, I find this game just gets better and better and better. Lord only knows what the full release is going to be like.
 
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Expander said:
I know what your saying jimmy and its still a top gun,but,by default your teamate ai should still adhere to basic rudamentry off the ball behaviour,irrespective of player cards and tactics.

Im not just talking about forward runs,im talking about support,making space,moving away from the opposition player to give you a option,filling gaps,reading danger and reacting intelligently to the ebb and flow of the game,not just reacting to the ball when it falls into there zone and triggers that said players ai.

Its only something you really notice after playing alot of fifa jimmy and unfortunetly pes2011 is still along way behind fifa in this regard.You also have a lot of tatical depth in fifa to and can tweak your stratergy,after all ea did create the slider system,however even in a standard default setting the ai in fifa is still way ahead of pes2011.Without blowing my trumpet this is my field of work ai,and the differences are huge.
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Sorry, disagree. I know it's your opinion and it's something you like from FIFA. But you know with fifa, there is so much space and the ability to just tap the L1 button you teammate will just run into more space. How is this great AI? It's just players running forward in space which the stupid opposition AI dosen't cover or notice. Doesn't require any thought or anything, just standard way of playing really. If you don't use the player run button of fifa still make much difference since there loads of space for your teammates anyway.

With PES 2011 it's all about the individuality of the players in terms of runs, Alves and Maxwell steam forward in every attack and play as wingers in effect! The only issue is the individual mentality cards are missing for me.
 
klashman69 said:
When it comes to Messi on thsi game thre some things which i find very strange. He's the cover star but for some reason Konami have put much more effort into other players it seems.

His unique dribbling animation is still in but because the preset one he's been given dosen't suit him (he's too crouched when running) he just looks odd.

Konami need to update the current OF or database and make sure he's given another movement set, one he's standing up more. He has great balance and there are animations in this game to greatly reflect his movements but he's currently using the wrong ones!

Also about the player runs! I don't see an issue here. It's all about the player.With fifa you just tap a button and the nearest player sprints forward immediately. tap it 5-6 times half your team runs forward. Since the game is all aboutcounters and lighting fast play with need to set up your team you get used to it. People are having a hard time adapting and learning to spot runs!

That's not what PES is about! You need to use your footballing brain and look fro runs ahead, probe and conserve possession until a opportunity arrives. PES isn't Attack, attack, attack fast like FIFA. You need to build attacks properly!

The videos fenadez has uploaded show me that really he needs to forget about just waiting for one player to make a run, instead he should look around at all his teammates to probe.
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Amen.
 
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