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Paris incident

Re: Paris incidend

It is indeed shocking, jonney.
It is shocking for all the innocent people who fell victim for reasons, they have no impact on.

I now read that some of the terrorist live here in Brussels (Molenbeek).

This must be the fourth or the fifth terrorist attack with people who are living in Molenbeek.

How is it possible that these thing keep repeting themselves?

Well that is Brussels consists of 19 different administrative entities with 19 different police forces. and 19 different mayors.

Sometimes i'm ashamed to be Belgian...

On the other hand, for professional reasons, i come quite often in Molenbeek and i have contacts with lots of third immigration immigrants.

Quite frankly, i can understand that some of them radicalize under the influence of some mediëval immams who hate everything western.

For young men of muslim descend/culture, it is almost impossoble to find work here in Belgium (and in France). The only way out is playing football, going in the show business or crime. Women find it a litle bit easier to find a decent job, but to give you an example. Where i work, there are 270 employees. There is not a single man of Muslim descend and only 3 women (there are also already 3 Russian women although they are here far more recent, to give an illustration, oh and i work for the Belgian authorities who should set an example).

What we need IMO is giving more chance to these people from Muslim descend and being ruthless against those people (unfortunately often so-called religious leaders) who exploit their disadvantaged situation. People who do this should be expulsed.

But to give a good opinion i would need far more space and time, because there are no easy solutions to this immense problem.

I hope this has been the last of these senseless attacks, but we all know better...

What a shame and what a waste.

May these victims rest in peace and their families find solace and peace of mind (sounds quite hollow, i know).
 
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my thoughts?

French goverment should take care of the problems they have at home first... this will only make things worse imo.

There is no need for refugees to come from Syria for France to be in trouble...this whole crisis is all imo due to individuals being in such poor state that the only reason they think their life will be worth living is to blow themselfs up or kill people for jihad.... while France population, about 10% already is muslim. One of these seven or eight people responsible for the attack was non French or Belgium citizen...ONE... wich means France are in big trouble from within... Stoping or taking care of refugees is necessary, but at the same time France are way behind controling their own French born individuals who sympatize with ISIS... that is why more attacks on Syria mean more unrest in France..... i fully expect more things like this happend in France just because of the unrest... Attacking Syria isn´t the answer....stoping migrants or more control over them and more control over home base people who can be potential threat is the answer..... But there might be something we don´t know or rather don´t want to know behind all this...it seems. sadly...

If EU asks other members to help with refugees, there is no chance my country should act as if every member of EU is equal in this situation, because it´s not true, especialy if there are still different circumstances or quality of life in each of the EU countries...i would have no problem taking refugees, if Slovak people themselfs were not refugees..comparing to UK or Germany or other wealthy EU countries.... think about it, how many people from SK, Poland and other east EU countries are refugees themselfs, but we have al l the same core beliefs... i think it is not about the belief as much as it is about people behave different to minorities... i have never seen a rich arab or muslim blow himself up for the belief he has...simply because he is wealthy enough to live in EU....the poor muslims that are living in bad circumstances are the most vulnerable to behave like those last friday, because they are the ones who have less education or are easier to get control over....and most of all easier to put all the blame on....Nobody with a little bit of brain and love and wealth would ever do something like that....no matter what religion he is.

i know this isn´t the best source, but this article just proves my point: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...h-say-blew-mistake-fiddling-suicide-vest.html... France should only blame themselfs or Belgium for allowing this to happend... after all, almost all of them were French or Belgium citizens.....as we know... wich means this is French problem more than anything... They also should blame Greece for allowing migrants to come without proper background check on EVERYONE. There can be thousands of people like these in France right now.... They should monitor everyone who was in connection or was in Syria and came back...If found guilty for contacting or ploting something like that, they should be jailed for life and their whole family should be sent out of EU. Bombing Syria now means nothing, only more refugees will come because of that and more people will want another revenge....it´s a circle without any solution.

im all for baning islam in EU, the same way christians would not be allowed to build churches in arabic countries....equality doesn´t exist.. desperate times need desperate measures. sorry to say this, but there is a reason all west is demanding help from Putin....wester europe was always looking at Poland, Slovakia, Czech republic, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia as if we were some second grade people, but now things will turn.... they might think about how we live in our countries, ok there is war in Ukraine, but i think other than that, here is realy good life compared to what is happening in west.... if there were jobs in my country, i would stay here and start a family here without a single doubt... we have everything we need except jobs in here....the bigest problems we have are mybe few gypsies who after many years still didn´t learn to live with us 100% also thanks to EU who sends money to our countries to help them to keep them away from their countries basically. but that is nothing compared to what France or other western countries have to deal with in radical muslims. but as said, maybe time will come when we will be needed to help the western countries...because the mess they created is showing itself right now.

i for one am happy to live in my country right now, because we are so bad economically comapred to Belgium or France, Germany....despite being in EU.. but i for one feel realy safe in my country...i wouldn´t swap that for anything right now.
 
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Re: Paris incidend

You can't ban a religion. A) We're supposed to believe in freedom, B) it's counter productive, and C) it's just unworkable.

There's not a lot the west can do about the problem of Islamism and the evil it spawns. We could wipe out IS but others will appear in time. This is a problem within Islam and it's one that Muslims themselves have to fix. Islam needs to be made benign like Christianity was. Some Muslim groups are trying to do this but atm they are losing out to the fundamentalists. The young generation of Muslims today hold views that are even more incompatible with western values than recent previous generations.

There are things we can do, and things we can stop doing, to aid their efforts but in the end this is going to be a long drawn out process.
 
Re: Paris incidend

well i went over the top with the baning a religion thing, but did i realy?

we have to look from a perspective how to save our own culture...as well... untill it comes to point us against them. Im not religous myself...but i have big respect towards my parents who tought me christian values...and therefore i think differently towards things than maybe muslim, but i have no doubt islam is not teaching people to blow themselfs up... but radical islam is way more dangerous than radical christianism i think...

look what happend in past by muslims taking over big lands of Europe in middle ages...with crusades as answer of west... it was already in past...

also look on to their way of life and ours...by ours i mean west of Istanbul....

the whole situation is imo not due to religion, many people are bright now and critical against any kind of religion...but the problem is cultural, financial and also think about how many of the young people coming from Syria, will stay unemployed or bellow what they expected also in Germany or other countries... they think maybe it is easy to live in Europe, that they will be center of attention, while people in Europe have to work hard as well, i mean normal people... the diffference between rich and poor in Europe get´s biger, also because there is so many young people who are not willing to learn better or fight for themselfs, they demand things the same way refugees demand....

i see no other solution than to give only those chance who at least know the freaking language of the country they wish to stay....that is if they run from war, because in Turkey there is no war, so why they all want to come to Germany or England...? Germans should realy consider who they vote for next time... because this situation doesn´t bring educated work force, on contrary....it brings more un-educated young demanding people, who if they don´t get what they want will be frustrated of the situation, just like any terrorists in Europe in past....either January attacks or now... all young muslims who were adding NOTHING and hated west for behaving bad to them, while the problem is themselfs... Because anyone from anywhere if they learn, try and work, they can have good life in Europe... i worked with young people from anywhere in europe and any religion....but that is not the problem. If people are educated, they are smart enough not to blow themselfs for 72 virgins in afterlife ...
 
Re: Paris incidend

What we in the west should learn is to give an accurate image of our societies.

I see that our appeal to all those people who are on the run for war, is far too positive. This is no land of milk and honey with unlimited possibilities for everyone.

At work we have a Russian girl who has studied (and graduated) in rocket science in Russia. Her degree isn't validated in the west and whe n i see what she has to do here...she is probably the most bright person in our department...we give her the chance to take more responsibility, but is impossible to pay her accordingly...that must be very frustrating...

On the other hand (and that is similar to my previous point). There are lots of young men from islamic culture who never get a decent job because of the negative image of muslims. Not all muslims are terrorists or extremists. Most suicide terrorists implicated in Al Qaeda or IS are Walahabists. That is a rahter small branch/subculture of the Islam.

Thier main sponsor is Saudi Arabia, a country that is seen as an allied country by 'the west'.

This post is not a reaction to pipa or godotelli.
 
Re: Paris incidend

Pipa, many of the people waging jihad aren't down on their luck, lonely, uneducated, poor , suicidal etc. There are many educated people, engineers etc. people who have decent lives, decent pay, kids. and so on, who join up. Hell, the 911 hijackers, for instance. These people are warped by certain doctrines within Islam, doctrines that most Muslims don't act upon even if they believe in them - things like martyrdom, global jihad, death for apostasy, adultery etc.
These are doctrines which are very central to the religion, a religion that many people truly believe, some more than others.
I'm not a fan of religion. Full stop. However, despite the bloody past, there are doctrinal reasons why reforming Islam is going to be harder to achieve than it was for Christianity. And that doesn't take into account the contrast between the morality of Jesus and Muhammad, or the lack of insane levels of political correctness of today. I still don't think outlawing it is the answer tho. If anything it will just drive more people towards the problematic parts of the quran and hadith and it will certainly solidify these beliefs in most of those who hold them already.
 
Re: Paris incidend

France and other countries brought these people's grandpa and grandma from Afrcia after the world wars to help rebuild the society because simply too many people died and needed workforce to maintain the economy level. They had wealthy life but their children and the childeren of those (nowdays) got a big crap on their head, never been integrated well, they are undereducated and know nothing about their new country and the western world...THATS why there are many radical immigrants there and thats why Europe is in danger because they can be easily manipulated by the ISIS trough religion



we have the same situation with the gipsies here just the diffo is they dont have an organized terrorist group behind them who been trained by the US


both parties failed imo. the immigrants aswell since they dont want to fit in now, and the countries who brought them in because they just dont care they have thousends of people there who just cant be French or Belgian of whatever in one day, the countries have to change too if they change the society that much, not only the immigrants



thats my opinion based on facts. yes ofcourse there are exceptions i know, no offence intended towards anyone who managed to fit in in any country
 
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Re: Paris incidend

Gabe.
I lived in one of the most "neglected" neighbourhoods of Belgium.
All my neighbours were Turkish people from Anatolya.

Me and my two housemates had lots of contacts (through football) with teenage "Turkish" boys. Those kids wanted to become Belgian or at least Western. They watched American movies, American music, they ate hamburgers...but they were neglected by educational institutions. Their parents are often illiterate and they were orientated towards the easiest schools, no matter how talented they are. When they are 18 they have a degree/diploma/certificate that is absolutely worthless and they can't find a decent job. They are seen by most Belgian people as profiteers and don't deserve this because they have been discriminated for years...then they start to hate countries like Belgium and France...

That was 30 years ago.

I still have contact with similar kids, but now professionally (and i still use football as a way to reach out to them). In those 30 years things only got worse for them because in countries like Belgium and France middle class is disappearing litle by litle. We are becoming countries of haves and have nots and these kids know damn well that they are living on the brink of society.

What is new compared to 30 years ago is that Saudi Arabia has exported Walahabism and (some, not many) hate preaching immams.

I honestly don't blame those young suicide terrorists, i don't agree at all with what they did and i have even more sympathy for their innocent victims. But imo they are victims too.

At the moment there is outrage in Belgium because a Belgian Judge didn't convict a Belgian muslim who tried to go to Syria to fight. Most papers and people think he should go to jail. He is 15 years old. I have a 15 year old daughter...

Several of my football projects are in Antwerp.
Local boys give football training after school in poor neigbourhoods. When i first visited one of these training sessions ( roughly 10 years ago now) i talked to the coaches (95% of them are from northern African descend, mostly Moroccans) and i asked how the parents reacted to their kids football "carreer". The coaches had a good laugh with me. They said they never ever see the parents. What happens is that the parents give their teenage kids money and then they disappear for 3 or 4 weeks to earn money in a parallel economy...These kids need their parents but never see them...i was shocked by this, but it turns out to be true...
 
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Re: Paris incidend

Amazing, Gerd.

You don't hear about this (as a UK citizen, anyway).

Thank you for this.
 
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Most people here in Belgium (and France) don't know that either, Chris...

Those kids are easy victims for recruiting Islam fundalists because they are in search of structure and values...and that is precisely what they are offered by the fundamentalists.
 
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the suicide bombers are victims!They stopped being victims once they turnend violent against innocent people. At that point they became cowards.
 
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My friend in the past we have had similar heroic discussions. I really like as a person, but we completely disagree. Somehow i can see your point. Yes they kill completely innocent people. But it takes some guts to blow yourself up (rather stupid guts, but guts).
What about drone operators sitting before a screen and eliminating (sometimes) wanted terrorists thousands kilometres from where they are sitting. I can see your point that this ugly job needs to be done.

I'm not a big fan of the war on terror. I've read a couple of critical books about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. What a waste of money and human bodies on all sides.

What we need is prevention. Try to avoid that young people become radical.
 
Re: Paris incidend

gerd said:
What is new compared to 30 years ago is that Saudi Arabia has exported Walahabism and (some, not many) hate preaching immams
Click to expand...
Pretty much all of modern Islamic extremism can be traced back to Saudi Arabia, specifically Juhayman's uprising and capture of the Kabaa in 1979 and the serious repurcussions.

Inevitably other parties like Pakistan and the US (unwittingly) have been involved over the years but the Grand Mosque Siege could quite possibly be the main source, given the anti-US sentiment grew after this event and the Saudi's gave more and more power to its religious conservatives after this happened.
 
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I agree, if you look at any of these organisations they can only function on such a scale with money. And you have to ask serious questions about where the money comes from and Saudi Arabia is a big big source of it. In the past certain countries have faced global economic sanctions for aiding terror (Libya in the 1980s) or for discrimination policies (South Africa) so you do wonder why the same doesn't happen to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is propagating a thing that is targeting citizens of countries like America, France and the UK yet there is no talk of sanctions.
 
Re: Paris incidend

cfdh_edmundo said:
.....so you do wonder why the same doesn't happen to Saudi Arabia...
Click to expand...
unfortunately saudi arabia has way more leverage than the likes of libia.
if there's one thing that would scare europe more than terrorism, that is the threat of another oil crisis. i'd be amazed if saudi arabia were ever to face any sort of economic sanctions.

besides, unlike other terrorist organizations of the past, Isis took control of so many oil rigs in iraq and libia that perhaps they don't even need any kind of indirect financial support anymore. however that is just an assumption of course, so i may well be wrong.
 
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While i agree with Edmundo about Saudi Arabia, IMO the solution lies more in internal politicus than in foreign politics. Simply give all those young muslims equalize chances to find a decent job.
 
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Well at the moment youth unemployment is very high in certain areas of Europe. In the UK universities are churning out graduate after graduate and many can't find jobs. They have to work for free doing internships or on zero hours contracts. In Spain things are very tough for all young people, youth unemployment is over 20% I heard. I think it's a major problem for all young people.
 
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When I was struggling to find a job, my folks would say on a constant loop "I feel sorry for your generation, there's 10 people applying for every job".

Now, the population is exploding and technology advancements are eliminating more jobs than ever before. I feel truly sorry for the current generation.
 
Re: Paris incidend

Nowadays it's hard to find a job for all young people, it get's even more difficult for young people coming from a background that is considered as "bad" or "negative".

Young man from Muslim descend have a double handicap:

1. they are mistrusted because of ethnical reasons (only men, not women).
2. when they are 12 they are systematically oriëntated towards inferior educational programs or schools. It seems that in most cases their parents are not assertive enough to ignore that advice (because it's only an advice).

Both these handicaps are extremely frustrating for those kids when they are 18-20 years old. It's then that the radical Immams (and there aren't many of them) step in and that they are starting to brain wash these kids.

One of the suicide terrorists from Molenbeek was a boxer until he was suspended for having smoked joints (positive drug test). Afterwards it all went wrong.

The logical reaction is that not every sportsman that is suspended becomes a terrorist and therefore it must be the youth himself who is "bad". The thing is that if you can't find a decent job, there are not many ways out of misery: sports, entertainement or crime.

What our government is doing right now is disgusting. They are effectively decalring war on the most subordianted neighbourhoods because 3 people from that one particular neighbourhood (Molenbeek) were involved in Paris. That is totally absurd.

I have lived in Molenbeek, i still have friends who live there...everybody in that neighbourhood is suffering now and one can't think what al lthis instills in kids who are now between 12 and 14 year old. This is the new generation of suïcide bombers.

Our government(s) have made mistake after mistake and now they are playing Rambo in order to save their face for the rest of the world. Repression isn't the only or the biggest answer. Those neighbourhoods need more street workers.

I know this because it is my job to work with these kids. All my football programs are oriëntated towards kids between 12 and 15 years old. Afterwards finding a decent job becomes the next hurdle.

I'm very sad for what is happening in my country at the moment.
 
Re: Paris incidend

I agree with everything Gerd said.

To put it in simpler terms, imagine you being a father of a few kids, then you adopt one who's parents either neglected him or are dead. This adopted kid seeks the same treatment as the other kids, but because he's adopted he doesn't get it. The kid sees the difference occasionally, which will after a while create envy, hate, etc towards the other 'beloved' kids.

Point being, true equality is a must. Not just empty words. There is a valid reason for anything that happens in life. You just have to look at the right reasons and places and fix.

gomito#10 said:
the suicide bombers are victims!They stopped being victims once they turnend violent against innocent people. At that point they became cowards.
Click to expand...

That's so easy to say, Gomito. You'll always have to look at why they resorted to that.

Don't get offended by this, but by your logic you'll also have to call pilots bombing innocent civvies as cowards. Governments sending their troops to conquer and protect resources that belong to other countries under the lie that they're protecting these countries people and giving them democracy and freedom and instead killing innocent civvies on the daily from elders to shredded infants with the death toll reaching millions after years, is cowardly.

So imagine now, whatever the relatives of these murdered civvies do in revenge, is no surprise.

This all has to be stopped at the core.
 
There's something that needs to be mentioned here; Syria.

Look at Syria before this shitty war started. Syria was a very self sufficient country and economy. I don't think they had any debt even. A very fertile country. Their people were very hard working. Their government, though I think were corrupt, gave the people free education, from preschool to university. Their government also always made sure everyone had shelter and food. There was almost no homeless nor starving person. They had equality. People from different backgrounds were allowed to study and work anywhere and even become government officials. Their prices were cheap; from food to clothing to whatever; just not the imported products though, as they wanted their people to not depend on imports and try create everything within. Self sufficient, self sustained. They had great tourism.

All this went to shit right after it was publicized that Syria had substantial amount of Natural Gas, and the government refused a pipeline deal that was supposed to go through Syria from Qatar to Europe or something along them lines. The Syrians from what I read/heard have struck a deal with Russia. The west was neglected. Then what happened? War.

Oh man, what a coincidence.

Look at Syria now. Torn to shreds by the likes of lunatics who call themselves Muslims, and other countries' armies. The death toll has reached over 250,000 people, 30,000 of them children. THIRTY THOUSAND F*****G CHILDREN. From ONE country. No one ever heard of these kids. Not one of you heard of them. But it's not your child, so it's ok. No global mass media constantly and repeatedly cries about them. Syria was an extremely safe place. 100+ innocent lives in Paris die and the cries and flags raised everywhere, and governments screaming death to Syria! Governments want to bomb Syrians ever harder. Why no equal treatment there? Murdered innocent civvies are murdered innocent civvies everywhere. Murdered civilians in a specific country doesn't make them any more privileged. A life is a life anywhere.

The hypocrisy is through the stratosphere. The mass media and the world should denounce EVERY crime, not find biased reasons to justify them.

And the refugee numbers? 9 million +. That is a scary number. 9 million people have left their war-torn used-to-be-safe country in a few years. These people left and are leaving horrific scenery for a reason. They want life, not death. These people would much rather have stayed were they were if this war hasn't erupted. They were forced out. And now seeking shelter in safe countries, they are faced with rejection. They can't live in their bloody country, and they're not accepted elsewhere. Where are they supposed to go?

Before any smartass says "Send them to their Arab brothers huehuehue!", there many many of them all over Arab lands. There's around 1 million in tiny Lebanon, another million + in Jordan, more in the Arabian gulf, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, etc. Then there are the ones wanting Europe.

This is just a post in a thread in a forum lost in the internet ocean. And this is just an extremely tiny glimpse, if any, on Syria. I'd want each and everyone of you to try imagine all this, and rid yourself of selective sympathy from the comfort of your couch.

And this is only Syria btw. Now go figure trying to imagine the tons of other countries with shitty situations and innocent people murdered in cold blood and mistreated from the Americas to Europe to Africa to Asia to Oceania. So much to take in; overwhelming and extremely complicated than a simple response to a post.
 
It's not quite that simple. The reason the flood of migrants is this big is because amongst people fleeing the majority are not Syrians or Iraqis. Many people have taken advantage of the situation as a free-pass to Western-Europe.

The systematic diversion to higher education not completely true either. A lot of second and even third generation kids are raised solely speaking the language of the country they are from. Speaking from first-hand experience, being raised bilingual and being able to speak perfect Dutch was a massive advantage for me. I also know of a Turkish family in my street who raised their daughters in both Dutch and Turkish and they're both at a university now. Parents should be held accountable for their kids as well, especially for their sons. Many Morrocan fathers only push their daughters and let their sons slack off. Of course these are just examples, but more assimilation is vital.
 
I agree that more assimilation is vital and that the parents are also responsible.
On the other hand i see kids who are perfectly assimilated but are not accepted in Belgium. Their ambition to be accepted will eventually end and becomes a frustration that might develop into hatred.
 
You're touched a really important fact in your post about natural resources of these territories of world... don't want to roll out all of this because it not change nothing...
 
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