T
The Original Spikester
Guest
Stringer Bell said:
Is he your clone???? :lol:
Not worth to buy pes5 because of ML
- Thread starter drekkard
- Start date
Is he your clone???? :lol:
Stringer Bell
Banned
- 12 February 2005
No, but we think alike...in terms of PES and evrything.
- Thread starter
- #93
Firs of all I might say I like to see different people having different points of view on the game. But, that said, I think some people misunderstands what we are trying to say about the cheating and so. I hope this comments will help in doing that.
Please read carefully my points. I'm not discussing the level of difficulty, I'm discussing HOW konami achieves difficulty in the game. They have changed nothing about this from pes2, and it's boring not because of winning or loosing, but just because it affects your control of the game and makes it too evident that the game experience is totally driven by the CPU, even if it doesn't affect the results. It would even make sense that the "cheating" would mean more goals to the CPU, but actually it only means more fustration about control, because the main point of the cheats are to difficult your control and playmaking, not to do it better than you.
I have two replay where a shoot of a CPU player that is going clearly wide SUDDENLY begins to change trend at mid range and goes in throught the middle of the goal. But I agree that this is somewhat accidental and I only recorded them to show them to my mates.
[/QUOTE]Lots of factors affect the players on both teams. Fatigue, stamina, mentality, home advantage, to name a few. In a situation where you're winning a certain game, perhaps your players get bumped down and the CPU players get a little bump up. Your team is tiring and nervous, the CPU team is extra determined to try and claw a result out of this important game in front of their home crowd. Perhaps the roll of the dice is tipped a little against your favour. All of this might cause your striker to be less likely to make a clean connection with that chance in front of goal.[/QUOTE]
That would be great if it was affecting both teams. What's the point on making the stats of the CPU boost on any goal I score? Sometimes my goals should affect negatively the opponent, please!!! It has to work in both ways.
In fact, when the CPU scores I always find it very easy to draw the game again, because the game is balancing again to my favour. But it happens few times because CPU scores so few...
Reality is not like that. It should be DIFFICULT to achieve the last pass and let etoo completely alone. But if you succeed on doing that, etoo should just fly to the keeper. It's absurd to have 6 passes to etoo and 6 times he's caught. It would work pretty nice the other way, and Konami is still in the lazy path, so it's to boost players to avoid things, when it should be the AI that prevented this solo runs.
And let me say that football really works this way, I haven't seen ANY player gaining yards to etoo when he's alone in the last 2 years, only Pereira from At. Madrid. Everytime he's left alone, he wins the race, and even WITH the ball he manages to do so from midfield and still gain terrain to his opponents. Sheva also does it, or Ronaldinho... So if you have etoo with the ball, alone and facing the goal, 90% of the times you should be alone on a 1 vs 1 with the keeper. Just that it would be difficult to achieve this situation.
And talking about how football is, you know that not all the teams put 8 men inside the box and do 40 yards through passes as the only way to attack. It's years since I'm waiting for the different teams to have different styles of playing. That's a key factor on ML.
Anyway, I think the real test will be the cell processor in PS3. If they can't work proper AI, proper difficulty that doesn't affect your controls and proper styles of play then...
Cheers!
nerf said:
Please read carefully my points. I'm not discussing the level of difficulty, I'm discussing HOW konami achieves difficulty in the game. They have changed nothing about this from pes2, and it's boring not because of winning or loosing, but just because it affects your control of the game and makes it too evident that the game experience is totally driven by the CPU, even if it doesn't affect the results. It would even make sense that the "cheating" would mean more goals to the CPU, but actually it only means more fustration about control, because the main point of the cheats are to difficult your control and playmaking, not to do it better than you.
nerf said:In my eyes it is not outright 'cheating'. The CPU does not do something like affect the ball in mid-air, activate the side thrusters and bend your shot wide of the post.
I have two replay where a shoot of a CPU player that is going clearly wide SUDDENLY begins to change trend at mid range and goes in throught the middle of the goal. But I agree that this is somewhat accidental and I only recorded them to show them to my mates.
[/QUOTE]Lots of factors affect the players on both teams. Fatigue, stamina, mentality, home advantage, to name a few. In a situation where you're winning a certain game, perhaps your players get bumped down and the CPU players get a little bump up. Your team is tiring and nervous, the CPU team is extra determined to try and claw a result out of this important game in front of their home crowd. Perhaps the roll of the dice is tipped a little against your favour. All of this might cause your striker to be less likely to make a clean connection with that chance in front of goal.[/QUOTE]
That would be great if it was affecting both teams. What's the point on making the stats of the CPU boost on any goal I score? Sometimes my goals should affect negatively the opponent, please!!! It has to work in both ways.
In fact, when the CPU scores I always find it very easy to draw the game again, because the game is balancing again to my favour. But it happens few times because CPU scores so few...
I have now 2 unbeaten seasons. 90% of my players are 17 or 18 years old right now, only having Eto'o , Valdes and Puyol from the starting squad. I repeat: it's not a matter of results. It's a matter of HOW things are done in the game, and the fact that a lot of the game design is focused on don't letting you play as you can. I'm the first in demanding a more challenging game in terms of AI and experience. Just that I don't like: "Take the lack of control and cpu-boost as a challenge", because it's absurd. I would prefer the CPU to shoot against me 12 times and score 1 or 2. Right now, they shoot 3 or 4 times and score 2.nerf said:
nerf said:
Reality is not like that. It should be DIFFICULT to achieve the last pass and let etoo completely alone. But if you succeed on doing that, etoo should just fly to the keeper. It's absurd to have 6 passes to etoo and 6 times he's caught. It would work pretty nice the other way, and Konami is still in the lazy path, so it's to boost players to avoid things, when it should be the AI that prevented this solo runs.
And let me say that football really works this way, I haven't seen ANY player gaining yards to etoo when he's alone in the last 2 years, only Pereira from At. Madrid. Everytime he's left alone, he wins the race, and even WITH the ball he manages to do so from midfield and still gain terrain to his opponents. Sheva also does it, or Ronaldinho... So if you have etoo with the ball, alone and facing the goal, 90% of the times you should be alone on a 1 vs 1 with the keeper. Just that it would be difficult to achieve this situation.
And talking about how football is, you know that not all the teams put 8 men inside the box and do 40 yards through passes as the only way to attack. It's years since I'm waiting for the different teams to have different styles of playing. That's a key factor on ML.
Anyway, I think the real test will be the cell processor in PS3. If they can't work proper AI, proper difficulty that doesn't affect your controls and proper styles of play then...
Cheers!
nerf
Forming triangles
I agree with a lot of what you say, drekkard, in fact I don't think we really disagree on anything - just looking at it from different points of view.
In an ideal world, of course you're right, it would be better if the CPU could beat you by skill and by capitalising on your errors, not beating you by handicapping you. I think Konami have done well to get the AI even this good, it has certainly improved over time from earlier versions, and I'm sure it will continue to improve. I agree that there are a lot of ways in which it could be better, but AI is such a complex thing.
Level of AI aside, I think we have to look at why the "cheating" is in - it's to try and balance the matches. To try and make each match tense and close scoring, in theory to keep it more exciting. The AI can't suddenly go up another gear in intelligence, and it can't make the human play worse, so it has to alter the players' stats. It has to make the CPU players slightly better and yours slightly worse. This is the only way to attempt this kind of balancing I think, and also the only way to represent player mentality.
Perhaps the balance is wrong, perhaps it's too severe? Perhaps you'd just rather be able to switch the balancing off as an option? It's all personal opinion at that stage I think. But what I'm saying is that I can understand why Konami put it in, and why they put it in the way they did.
Maybe they just didn't implement it very well. It is interesting though that some people are plagued by it consistently, whereas other people happily play along without it ever being a factor at all. I guess you can't please everyone
In an ideal world, of course you're right, it would be better if the CPU could beat you by skill and by capitalising on your errors, not beating you by handicapping you. I think Konami have done well to get the AI even this good, it has certainly improved over time from earlier versions, and I'm sure it will continue to improve. I agree that there are a lot of ways in which it could be better, but AI is such a complex thing.
Level of AI aside, I think we have to look at why the "cheating" is in - it's to try and balance the matches. To try and make each match tense and close scoring, in theory to keep it more exciting. The AI can't suddenly go up another gear in intelligence, and it can't make the human play worse, so it has to alter the players' stats. It has to make the CPU players slightly better and yours slightly worse. This is the only way to attempt this kind of balancing I think, and also the only way to represent player mentality.
Perhaps the balance is wrong, perhaps it's too severe? Perhaps you'd just rather be able to switch the balancing off as an option? It's all personal opinion at that stage I think. But what I'm saying is that I can understand why Konami put it in, and why they put it in the way they did.
Maybe they just didn't implement it very well. It is interesting though that some people are plagued by it consistently, whereas other people happily play along without it ever being a factor at all. I guess you can't please everyone
nerf said:Perhaps you'd just rather be able to switch the balancing off as an option?
That is such a great point - Konami should do this with a number of options so people can have their own choice on how the computer plays then we wouldn't be having this disagreement.
- Thread starter
- #96
Yes, I totally agree nerf and killercam. I always thought that, if "cheats" have to be in the game, they should affect in teams as a whole. I mean, playing against Milan would be logical if my players are less "productive" or the cpu gets boost. It would make sense.
But it annoys me when I play against Getafe and when I score they turn into better players. The cheats shouldn't change DURING a match. Only formation, strategy and so. By allowing the cpu teams to cheat or get boosted (boost is a better word than cheat, I see) according to its stats would sound more coherent. Then they would be balancing the entire ML without the lost in credibility it gets when in a single match you can see lesser teams become better just by "magic" when you score or when you simply play away and are leading the table.
I think we have a good point right now.
But it annoys me when I play against Getafe and when I score they turn into better players. The cheats shouldn't change DURING a match. Only formation, strategy and so. By allowing the cpu teams to cheat or get boosted (boost is a better word than cheat, I see) according to its stats would sound more coherent. Then they would be balancing the entire ML without the lost in credibility it gets when in a single match you can see lesser teams become better just by "magic" when you score or when you simply play away and are leading the table.
I think we have a good point right now.
mathewsss
Champions League
jiwa said:
Hi Jiwa,
thanks for your advise on not sticking too close to the CPU attackers.
I am now playing more patiently when defending and find that it's more
effective to cut out CPU attacks.
There's actually a setting in Madden (used to be anyway) that explicitly gave the losing team an advantage. You could turn it on or off, whether or not you wanted to make things more exciting.
I play ML almost exclusively, well did before WE9 anyway. I guess I'll have to wait and see if they improved in PES5 at all, if not I won't be wasting my money. The experience goes from being pretty sharp to just utter frustration. I've posted alot in the WE9 thread on the topic, so don't want to waste much here. If you don't believe there's cheating look at these things:
your first touch vs. computer first touch (and pick some decent players, like have ronaldo on your team and any no name on the comps)
wait for the 'computer is now going to go on a run' mode. that's the one where the really slow, untalented DMF picks the ball up, runs horizontally across the field twice, and then, with a trail of suddenly-lethargic defenders hits the perfect through ball to his striker. Who's alone because your CB decided to run away from the ball for no reason.
Watch your FB's. No matter what you do, theyll move into the middle of the pitch if the comp wants to play in their SMF/wingers. Especially on the break.
And these are things without mentioning the refs, who are actually funny in their bias some games. Or the fouls, which is actually how the computer fights the counterattack. Or the stamina issues...
Thread is spot on. If you want it for the ML, don't bother. Otherwise go for it!
I play ML almost exclusively, well did before WE9 anyway. I guess I'll have to wait and see if they improved in PES5 at all, if not I won't be wasting my money. The experience goes from being pretty sharp to just utter frustration. I've posted alot in the WE9 thread on the topic, so don't want to waste much here. If you don't believe there's cheating look at these things:
your first touch vs. computer first touch (and pick some decent players, like have ronaldo on your team and any no name on the comps)
wait for the 'computer is now going to go on a run' mode. that's the one where the really slow, untalented DMF picks the ball up, runs horizontally across the field twice, and then, with a trail of suddenly-lethargic defenders hits the perfect through ball to his striker. Who's alone because your CB decided to run away from the ball for no reason.
Watch your FB's. No matter what you do, theyll move into the middle of the pitch if the comp wants to play in their SMF/wingers. Especially on the break.
And these are things without mentioning the refs, who are actually funny in their bias some games. Or the fouls, which is actually how the computer fights the counterattack. Or the stamina issues...
Thread is spot on. If you want it for the ML, don't bother. Otherwise go for it!
JimJoeC
Custom User Title
drekkard said:
I completly agree that there is cheating in this game but I also think that the lower league clubs will raise thier game for the visit of bigger clubs.
You always raise your game for say Man Utd or Milan or Real.
The thing that gets me the most is the tackling, I have to put in about 5 - 6 tackles before I'll get the ball whereas the computer will tackle you once and sprint off with the ball.
I have tried all sorts of different methods of tackling all to no avail.
You should play on a balanced field, home advantage should count for something though. But overall the com should beat you with skill rather than 'cheating'.
- Thread starter
- #100
JimJoeC said:
I also agree with that, but the thing is that in the game Getafe players will become better only WHEN I score, in order to balance the result. That's crap! I mean, a lot of matches you begin playing very well and suddenly, when you score, the opponent begins to win all loose balls and all physical contact and do spectacular 40 meter through balls.
The main problem is that you can FEEL this balancing a lot. I mean, if you play against Valencia and they score, you don't bother too much, because the balancing also favourishes you! A lot of times I let them to score a second goal just to see how easy is then to draw! I hate that.
drekkard said:
Yes, this I have also noticed. THE NEED TO SCORE. Else a difficult game may just end-up a 0-0 bore. Once you score, the CPU changes its play looking for an equaliser. Hold them off for a while and same time try to capiltalise. Game opens up some. Score another they go nutter. Game open up again. Score 3 and usually they stop trying, and do a more dmage limitation (back to normal). going 2 down against CPU is bad, since they'll play for a shutout.
Cheers.
Good points all around. We're all basically on the same page I think, its just different degrees of irritation.
I just had a read of the up-coming piggyback strat guide. The demo pages are available. A small revelation therein.
Loss of stamina affects many areas (e.g jump, passing, response, attack, dribble etc). A global stat dropped is applied. Therefore tiring players must be subbed.
Another thing, all this while I thought response was how quick a player responded to loose balls etc. It actually denotes how responsive a player is to user input. Therfore since stamina effects stats and response ties to controllers. The CPU boost may not actually be that exxagerated. But coupled with our loss in stats and unresponsive control we may get the feeling our palyers are lead weights.
Probably Konami did not apply stat drops to AI sides.
Have a read though, most stuff in the sample pages are known already,but there are a few gems there.
Cheers.
I just had a read of the up-coming piggyback strat guide. The demo pages are available. A small revelation therein.
Loss of stamina affects many areas (e.g jump, passing, response, attack, dribble etc). A global stat dropped is applied. Therefore tiring players must be subbed.
Another thing, all this while I thought response was how quick a player responded to loose balls etc. It actually denotes how responsive a player is to user input. Therfore since stamina effects stats and response ties to controllers. The CPU boost may not actually be that exxagerated. But coupled with our loss in stats and unresponsive control we may get the feeling our palyers are lead weights.
Probably Konami did not apply stat drops to AI sides.
Have a read though, most stuff in the sample pages are known already,but there are a few gems there.
Cheers.
grechzoo
Conference
- 15 July 2004
i think im gonna buy that guide, looks very comprehensive, and desfinetly worth it if i watn to take advantage of all the little tid bits a lot of people (including me) sometime miss out on in games.