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Monopolization and Tribal nature of FIFA/FC modding

Paul-v

Championship
Joined
2 October 2013
Location
UK
Team
Swansea City
Hi guys,

This rant comes the heart rather than my head and this is the forum that i feel i can express myself openly so hear me out. Apologies in advance if i upset anyone.

I've passionately modded this series since 2012, I'm getting old, getting tired and very busy with work and my family but still enjoy modding/playing this series from time to time.

Over the years, it has been well documented that there has been serious disparity between various modders, some of it is outright jealousy and ego, it has also made me into the worst version of myself too. However, I'd say 75% of the community is echo chamber Discord Servers and almost tribe like groups causing other tool developers and modders seem pathetically insignificant in comparison.

With FC26 coming out, we were hit with a great base for modding (the career mode is very good) but a huge setback with the anti tamper. I put my heart and soul into Frostbite Modding Tool (FMT), cracking the anti cheat and making it available ASAP and allowing modders access very early on, for FREE. However, once again I realised (from the sudden disappearance of all the FMT users) that I'm doing this for nothing other than myself, my own ego and will always be in the shadows of others and have been in the shadows of others ever since the 2020/2021 incidents. It makes me feel like a complete idiot, realise my priorities were completely misguided, i put off in real life things to just help this community and to be honest, i feel i got very little thanks for my efforts. Not for the first time!!!

So I am starting to think. Does the entire community enjoy this monopoly gained by a very select few? I've grown to realise I don't think anyone cares... as long as they can all run their Patreon on top eh?

Anyway. Just putting my thoughts out there. Self reflection is good for my soul 😂

Thanks for coming to my TED talk, this is likely too many words for the young generation 😂

Have a good evening
 
Hey Paul! I don't got the exactly point that you want to discuss. Is it about monetization monopoly, modding tools or general modding? Or all together?

I was about to say what I think about it, but just want to confirm the subject hahaha

About gratitude to people who works on things... I think that happens with all modders (more with some, less with others, but with everyone), but clearly you, FIFER and who works developing modding tools should be more praised and recognised for it. I can't even imagine the stress level to develop it...
 
Hey Paul! I don't got the exactly point that you want to discuss. Is it about monetization monopoly, modding tools or general modding? Or all together?

I was about to say what I think about it, but just want to confirm the subject hahaha

About gratitude to people who works on things... I think that happens with all modders (more with some, less with others, but with everyone), but clearly you, FIFER and who works developing modding tools should be more praised and recognised for it. I can't even imagine the stress level to develop it...
All together. Tools more than anything I think. If you look at the most popular and useful tools. They are ALL Patreon first.

As an example, FIFA Editor Tool on the face of it earned between $500-1800 dollars this month. Exact figures is variable because but this based on number of members and the subscription model. There are however 223 current members (it was higher a few days ago) and the model is between 2.50 and 8. Most would pay the 8 to get early access...

Where as on my side. I charged 0 for any access and earned a grand total of 1 from one donation via kofi.

Other useful tools like RDBM... cost money, not sure why.

Then you have all the Patreon modders on top. Charging for early access, where as I don't. So I lose out... It makes me look like an idiot lol
 
All together. Tools more than anything I think. If you look at the most popular and useful tools. They are ALL Patreon first.

As an example, FIFA Editor Tool on the face of it earned between $500-1800 dollars this month. Exact figures is variable because but this based on number of members and the subscription model. There are however 223 current members (it was higher a few days ago) and the model is between 2.50 and 8. Most would pay the 8 to get early access...

Where as on my side. I charged 0 for any access and earned a grand total of 1 from one donation via kofi.

Other useful tools like RDBM... cost money, not sure why.

Then you have all the Patreon modders on top. Charging for early access, where as I don't. So I lose out... It makes me look like an idiot lol
Got your point. And to be clear honest here, your work would worth monetization, because is a f* modding tool completely developed from scratch. Live Editor and FET too, even if it's early access system. How many hours you've spent on it, and how much it worth?

About patreon modding scene, I got you too, as I joined this late FC 25 cycle. I don't have a complete opinion about mods being behind fully paywalls, but don't see a big problem with early access (my mods have 7 day early access for supporters) as it allows you to receive pledges/donations for only who wants to do it, not as obligation because they are free after this period.
 
All together. Tools more than anything I think. If you look at the most popular and useful tools. They are ALL Patreon first.

As an example, FIFA Editor Tool on the face of it earned between $500-1800 dollars this month. Exact figures is variable because but this based on number of members and the subscription model. There are however 223 current members (it was higher a few days ago) and the model is between 2.50 and 8. Most would pay the 8 to get early access...

Where as on my side. I charged 0 for any access and earned a grand total of 1 from one donation via kofi.

Other useful tools like RDBM... cost money, not sure why.

Then you have all the Patreon modders on top. Charging for early access, where as I don't. So I lose out... It makes me look like an idiot lol
If it bothers you that you don't earn from your work while others do and you feel like you're missing out on potential financial rewards, then why not monetize your creations as well?

P.s. I don't mean it in a snarky way, just seems like a logical solution to feeling bad about current situation you find yourself in.
 
Hey mate, I really respect your work and what you’re saying. I completely understand your point of view but people tend to go for whatever feels easier and more practical to use.


I’ve tried FMT recently, and while I see its potential, for modders who need to bulk edit a lot of things, it doesn’t feel very quick or convenient yet.


I’m honestly just a bit confused about the whole situation. I totally get your frustration, but personally, I’d be more than happy to support you financially if that helps the tool grow and improve faster I know how much time and effort goes into developing something like this.


That said, if you choose to keep it free, I don’t really see why it should cause anger. Offering something for free already earns you respect and admiration from the community.


I’m not saying this as criticism, but rather as friendly feedback hoping it might help you and your project move forward.
 
If it bothers you that you don't earn from your work while others do and you feel like you're missing out on potential financial rewards, then why not monetize your creations as well?

P.s. I don't mean it in a snarky way, just seems like a logical solution to feeling bad about current situation you find yourself in.
It's a very difficult thing to discuss but I technically can't without permission from my employer and I would be liable to a lot of tax even if I did. So it would be financially pointless due to tax and I risk my real job.

I was just pointing out an easy metric to discuss (monetary feedback). However, if you visit any of the Discord channels, websites or YouTube, FET is the ONLY tool that exists so you MUST use/pay for it. You see where I am coming from now?

Hey mate, I really respect your work and what you’re saying. I completely understand your point of view but people tend to go for whatever feels easier and more practical to use.


I’ve tried FMT recently, and while I see its potential, for modders who need to bulk edit a lot of things, it doesn’t feel very quick or convenient yet.
It's interesting you say that but I've been provided no feedback that suggests that. You say "bulk edit a lot of things". What do you mean by that? Give me an example where you bulk edit many items so I can work on it. Perhaps in the FMT thread on this forum? Thanks.
 
It makes me look like an idiot lol
It doesn't make you look like an idiot, not at all.
You're just someone who's used to the "old" editing model and is sticking to it.

First of all, paid patches: I'm totally OK with the "Patreon first, free for everyone afterwards" releases. As long as they become free in a reasonable span of time (not years!) of course.
I'm also OK with what Anth does (a fully-fledged gameplay mod for Patreon subscribers and a "bare bones", not-bleeding-edge gameplay mod released for free) for example.
I'm not that OK with people taking free tools, using them to bundle free content, and then releasing paid-only patches with that content (they've become more and more over the years, and this also applies to PES). And that's why I'm not paying for patches, no matter how wonderful they may sound or look.

About releasing content for free: I'm by no means as skilled as you or as other people developing tools. And I'm not skilled as Anth (or as you again) or as other people releasing gameplay mods, but I've had my modding career too: I designed and released kits for almost every game I owned and for longer than I can actually remember.
I started more than 20 years ago with PES 3 and ended last year with FC 24 (when I realized some kits for the Triskele mod, which is one of the Patreon "donationware only" mods I think you refer to), and never made a single buck out of them. Basically, in my PES 6 days I saw my kits taken, repacked and sold in patches without even anyone asking for permission, and last year I helped Davo raise some money (little? Much? I don't know and I don't really want to know either because making money has never been my goal) with the Triskele mod, just because I would have liked to do some kits and he was needing some. I asked for absolutely nothing in return. I never asked for anything in return.
I've also been part of different editing teams (PESmania and FIFAmania most notably) and I've been working behind the scenes for countless hours in order for their projects to be successful, and never made a single buck out of those hours.

Does this make a fool of me? No, I'm just someone who's used to the "old" editing model and is sticking to it.

I know that the editing scene has changed. We are not fools, we just decided to play by the rules we were used to back in the day.
 
It's a very difficult thing to discuss but I technically can't without permission from my employer and I would be liable to a lot of tax even if I did. So it would be financially pointless due to tax and I risk my real job.

I was just pointing out an easy metric to discuss (monetary feedback). However, if you visit any of the Discord channels, websites or YouTube, FET is the ONLY tool that exists so you MUST use/pay for it. You see where I am coming from now?


It's interesting you say that but I've been provided no feedback that suggests that. You say "bulk edit a lot of things". What do you mean by that? Give me an example where you bulk edit many items so I can work on it. Perhaps in the FMT thread on this forum? Thanks.
Bro, the list of features is honestly huge. For example, you can batch import faces file without having to rename them, and when you add kits from Kit Creator, it automatically updates the minikit preview as well. I can also batch export only the modified assets something I could never manage to do with FMT.
I’m able to edit gameplay values using percentages instead of adjusting them one by one, and it even includes a built-in Lua editor where you can assign values without causing conflicts with other mods. There are just so many small details that make modding quicker and easier overall.
Once again, I’m not saying this to criticize just to share some constructive feedback since you asked for it. Personally, I don’t have a preference between one tool or the other. And as for not giving feedback earlier, that’s just how I am I usually don’t comment or ask for things that are provided for free. If I were paying or supporting financially, then I’d feel more entitled to request features or improvements.
 
Im with Paul, i will never pay for mods. It all should have old pes vibes, should be made and used for fun. You dont want to share? Costed your time etc? You did it in pain? Dont release it ten... That is my opinion
 
I don't enjoy paying for mods at all when the game already costs $70 and is released every year. When I can play Skyblivion for free when it releases, and every S.T.A.L.K.E.R. standalone project, Fallout project mods, Diablo 2 mods, ect. They are basically full games. They may ask for a donation, but never obligate anyone to donate because they do it for the love of the game. So, why do I have to pay some guy on Patreon $5 for turf and a different camera for a football game? I'm sorry if I got off track, Paul-v. I appreciate you keeping it free.
 
I would even understand to pay once for a year, but they are so greedy to get money monthly
 
When I can play Skyblivion for free when it releases, and every S.T.A.L.K.E.R. standalone project, Fallout project mods, Diablo 2 mods, ect. They are basically full games. They may ask for a donation, but never obligate anyone to donate because they do it for the love of the game.
You've hit my point perfectly!

If you come from or apart of ANY other modding community. It doesn't work this way at all. You do stuff because you love the game and want to give back to the community. There are groups out there who have made entire new DLCs or even games, for FREE. Do they need to put it on Patreon to gain recognition? No. Where as in this community, if you DONT use Patreon, your work is somehow inferior or not worth your time. It makes absolutely no sense.

I don't enjoy paying for mods at all when the game already costs $70 and is released every year... why do I have to pay some guy on Patreon $5 for turf and a different camera for a football game
It's worse than that on occassion. These modders will hold back releases because an official update occurs which "breaks" the mods. It doesn't actually break them but they blindly believe it does so they pay more.
 
alot of these modder products not even final and its behind a paywall. Alot of these mods are just tweaks made and its never possible to get to the level we all wish for ,because if it was ... we will have a mod like in skyrim which adds a certain feature and thats it , instead we have mods in fc with different variation of physics. Since when does real life physics have different versions?

There is a trend also with these modders who posts just clips of gameplay , when you actually post the entire full match you will still see problems and unbalance gameplay.
 
If it was not you making this thread it would be a huge anger how could anyone put a modder in a bad spotlight....
 
Paul, I wish you would put your hard work and talent into unlocking more editing functionality in the older FIFAs, specifically 17, not because I believe this is the best FIFA (it could be 14, 16 or 18) but because of the following:

The fan base of the current generation is inevitably the largest but also the most impatient and least knowledgeable. The fan bases of the older titles are significantly smaller (but hey, you can’t make money anyway!) and anyone still playing these older titles really cares about accurate football simulation, not trying to find the best lipstick for the pig. By consequence, no modder using your tools will be asking for money, so it will all be for passion. Imagine being the tool developer who brought Infinity Patch or Classic Patch to FIFA 17!
 
You are great for doing mods for free, first game i put mods into was a fallout one, now i try to do it in every game, I even tried stalker anomaly years ago, but nowadays bethesda with the paid creations and these fifa modders man... and I only have a minimal wage job hahahahah
Im using FMT and your career mod that makes simulated games more realistic and they are good, but id like to be able to use live editor as well
I dont know what happened in 2021 and i dont know if i wanna know, the only fifa i ever moded was 24 when the fifer mod got released for free (you know when it was almost time for fc25)
Some things lose their value when they get a price
 
There’s something fundamentally wrong with how the current scene accepts paid mods as normal when that shouldn’t be the case. And yes, the current monopolization is at the root of this issue.

I’m not against modders earning something from their work, tools or high-quality mods behind a short early-access window are fine, as long as the pricing is fair.

The problem comes when certain individuals and groups permanently lock poor-quality, bug-ridden mods or even modding knowledge behind paywalls and act as if they own EA’s content. That’s juat selling pirated content off someone else’s IP while disgusing it as modding.

Users need to remember that everything modded in EAFC or FIFA still belongs to EA. Modding exists because EA tolerates it to a certain limit as you can read here and here, and not because they owe us that freedom. If too many take advantage, EA could easily shut it all down, hurting even those who mod simply out of passion.

Something drastic might need to happen before it gets even worse, even if that means losing some of the individuals who exploit the system.

Because if this trend continues, nothing will remain free. Every mod, every face, every kit, and every tool will eventually sit behind a paywall, permanently. And if you think paying 70$ for the base game was too much, you are in for a rude awakening when you see what it might cost to mod or play with mods in the near future.
 
All together. Tools more than anything I think. If you look at the most popular and useful tools. They are ALL Patreon first.

As an example, FIFA Editor Tool on the face of it earned between $500-1800 dollars this month. Exact figures is variable because but this based on number of members and the subscription model. There are however 223 current members (it was higher a few days ago) and the model is between 2.50 and 8. Most would pay the 8 to get early access...

Where as on my side. I charged 0 for any access and earned a grand total of 1 from one donation via kofi.

Other useful tools like RDBM... cost money, not sure why.

Then you have all the Patreon modders on top. Charging for early access, where as I don't. So I lose out... It makes me look like an idiot lol
You deserve it Paul! I have been in and out of FIFA/FC due to gameplay but every time I come back, you are here... still toiling away. I am proficient (enough) in both FMT and FET and even have both again as of right now (until my membership runs out this month) and you should 100% monetize. People flock to your page because you are always first. Then you get bombarded with "hurry up and do this" or "add this" and that is just so they can have what they want until FET comes out. You come out first every single year and see nothing but "thanks" for it. you are also multi-faceted when it comes to games supported as well.
 
There’s something fundamentally wrong with how the current scene accepts paid mods as normal when that shouldn’t be the case. And yes, the current monopolization is at the root of this issue.

I’m not against modders earning something from their work, tools or high-quality mods behind a short early-access window are fine, as long as the pricing is fair.

The problem comes when certain individuals and groups permanently lock poor-quality, bug-ridden mods or even modding knowledge behind paywalls and act as if they own EA’s content. That’s juat selling pirated content off someone else’s IP while disgusing it as modding.

Users need to remember that everything modded in EAFC or FIFA still belongs to EA. Modding exists because EA tolerates it to a certain limit as you can read here and here, and not because they owe us that freedom. If too many take advantage, EA could easily shut it all down, hurting even those who mod simply out of passion.

Something drastic might need to happen before it gets even worse, even if that means losing some of the individuals who exploit the system.

Because if this trend continues, nothing will remain free. Every mod, every face, every kit, and every tool will eventually sit behind a paywall, permanently. And if you think paying 70$ for the base game was too much, you are in for a rude awakening when you see what it might cost to mod or play with mods in the near future.
Very interesting articles. Thank you for sharing. Both expressly prohibit charging money for mods. C&C permits donations to recoup time spent but not forcing users to pay. This forum has similar rules and could be more forceful in application. This would certainly create a void as basically everyone working on FC26 (but Paul) charges for mods.

The great irony is that by charging for a mod, it makes it seem more valuable (if it was so good, why give it away for free?).
 
I also understand your point of view and I wanted to thank you for everything you do for the community.

Personally, I'm fed up with all these modders who stuff themselves with paid mods, whether it's Anth's, Danielz, etc. I'm not questioning their work, but the principle of monetization. Paid once is fine, but paid monthly is ridiculous.

Thanks to you, this year I'm able to use a reshade to modify this awful lawn.

For me, paying a single cent every month to these modders is over. I hope you don't become that caricature.

I'm not against a single monetization of FMT, and that's it.

Take care and thank you again.
 
I think most of Players are just chasing something that will never change the core gameplay.

The mods are often just the wrapping on a Christmas present; the gameplay isn't changed, and if that's not good and you don't enjoy it, it's over anyway.

I appreciate the modders' passion, but I don't see the point in celebrating the current squad of football social millionaires and the scam banner advertising of dubious betting companies, including blood money, which they bring into their mods. I'd rather play with the squads I still know without the greedy zeitgeist.

I don't download mods and I don't feel like paying for them, and then if it doesn't work, I don't want to have to deal with my own PC support because I have 12 different mods or a career mode that crashes after 1-2 seasons.

I prefer to appreciate the simplicity of the game and enjoy the individual titles.
 
That is what i said some time ago modders have no rights at all to demand money. Good thing is you can easly get most of them for free anyway
Another great paradox. Charging for mods is making money off a product you don’t own and are not authorized to resell, against EA’s authorization. It is certainly a violation of their terms and (I’m not a lawyer) but may also be illegal. Is then sharing paid mods without the creators permission (that they are not authorized to earn money from in the first place) piracy?
 
I think it's fine for tools and mods to require subscription to get early access, it motivates modders and tools developers to pour a lot of time not just developing tools and mods but it also update them and provide support and extra customizability with it. However if I am going to be very specific, I think if your tool is made from using data from someone else's research/work, then it feels disingenuous. Obviously FET uses a lot of research and data from FMT and Live Editor and I don't think it's right to be making money from it. If FMT is free, FET should be free too. For original work(fully based on ideas and research made by yourself), it's ok to have early access payment model.
 
I think most of Players are just chasing something that will never change the core gameplay.

The mods are often just the wrapping on a Christmas present; the gameplay isn't changed, and if that's not good and you don't enjoy it, it's over anyway.

I appreciate the modders' passion, but I don't see the point in celebrating the current squad of football social millionaires and the scam banner advertising of dubious betting companies, including blood money, which they bring into their mods. I'd rather play with the squads I still know without the greedy zeitgeist.

I don't download mods and I don't feel like paying for them, and then if it doesn't work, I don't want to have to deal with my own PC support because I have 12 different mods or a career mode that crashes after 1-2 seasons.

I prefer to appreciate the simplicity of the game and enjoy the individual titles.
Incredible how you wrapped all mods/modders as "christmas present" hahaha

What do you mean with "chasing something that will never change the core gameplay"? We do have mods exactly like that tho
 
If you are on Patreon and you miss one payment for whatever reason 1-2 models boot you from their content until you update. And it's not peanuts they are charging either, they are making some serious dosh. I would go as far as to say stealing peoples work and selling it off as their own. One guy won't do shit until Fifer has released his first, like a lil suckling pig on mammas tit. Paul-V for a jack you're alright with me.:CONF::APPLAUD:
 
This discussion will never take a proper place until we separate things. We can't put all modders that charge for his mods in the same place, bacause some charge ridiculously high prices and gatekeep the knowledge for specific areas, while others charge early access system, help community and share knowledge with eachother.

You can't compare a modder that change a texture and charge for it, with a modder that spent 10 hours a day developing his things. It's truly like a real job (and of course I'm not talking about me here, my mods are much simpler).

Of course monthly subscriptions are a big income and incentive for modders to keep developing. But agree with some opinions here: mods hold completely behind a paywall aren't good. The best way if you want to do it is with early access system or a lite version free for everyone, which is the majority case these days.
 
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