Manchester United Thread

Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

lo zio said:
forget it mate.... it's 716 millions overdraft we're talking about here (and more than 1 billion to get the whole club)... maybe, if man utd fans were 1\6 of the entire world population u could do something about it....
lazio fan tried that in 2004 (before lotito's rescue). lazio had about 2 millions fans all around the world those days.... sure they're probably a lot less than united fans...... but then again, their debt was much smaller than united's one aswell (it was 250 millions euros, wich is about 225 millions pounds).... and it was also much easier for them to help their club than it would be for u. lazio was a listed company so they could buy shares directly (instead of buying merchandising products, wich is a way more abstract process)......yet it didn't work.
there's really not much fans can do in theese kind of situations, sadly. just wait and hope for the best. :))
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I guess it is too much to ask for, especially with the recession and everything. If I was asked to contribute about £500 of my own money for nothing but to keep the club alive, I'd do it without thinking (providing you could guarantee that the money wouldnt go to waste). I just assumed more fans would be as generous but I guess thats not being realistic.

lo zio said:
mate it's way more complicated than this..... and investing +1 billions euros on a company which as 716 millions debt (that's the figure i heard) doesn't sound like a great idea..... it could never sound like a great idea.... no matter how we put it, this is a huge loss... the best outlook is to hope for a return on investment in, say, 5, 6 years..... it's hard to imagine a worse way to invest your money. and mate, being a millionaire doesn't mean u don't care about profits... quite the opposite actually.
that's why i said it must be a group and it must be an english group.... not because a group would turn this into a great idea..... it would still be a terrible idea, from a financial perspective...... but at least it would be possible (while it's pretty much impossible for a single billionaire to get persuaded to close such a deal).
the loss would be distributed over many people.....obviously so would the incomes (so, from a financial point of view, this would still be a terrible move). but since the loss would be less substantial, some motives (other than business) might actually persuade some people to get involved (getting world wide exposure, or contributing to saving the club you love, things like that)...... but as i said, that wouldn't make this deal a great idea... at all. it would just make it possible. but possible doesn't mean easy..... i mean, finding a group of people who are willing to inject such a huge ammount of cash.... to wait years for a return on the investment.... to share the lead with other 30, 40, 50 billionaire........ that's really not easy.
so if theese people are serious, that's your best chance to survive.... and u're already lucky u got this chance.
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I understand what you're saying but these things are obviously considered before the Red Knights were "formed" and the proposal was made. Obviously no one is gonna contribute £20million without knowing where they stand in terms of where and when they'll get a return on their investment. These people claim to be United supporters. Maybe they just see it as a personal expense like buying an expensive house or car, without caring too much on how they'll get their money back. Kinda like how Chelsea and Man City's owners just threw money into the club almost for personal entertainment. Football clubs seem to be the new toy for rich people to play with so I wouldnt be surprised if this was the case. Or maybe not all of the Red Knights are long term investers but just lending the money temporarily to help their fellow millionaires, who would then pull out once they've been paid off.
There's a lot of possible explanations and it doesnt have to be as complicated as you're making it out to be. I personally still dont like the idea but IMO it's not as bad as you think it is.

lo zio said:
well "profits" equals to incomes minus outflow (expenses, contracts, taxes, amortation, interests over debts).... so even though u're still making a lot of money that doesn't make u a profitable company coz your outflow is more substantial than your incomes.
i can't be 100% sure of that, of course, coz i don't have access to united's balance sheet, but i heard that this season, without the departure of ronaldo, united would have been reporting a loss of over 30 millions pounds...
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I know what "profits" mean. What I'm saying is that the Glazers have bought the club on borrowed money. The Red Knights wont be buying the club on borrowed money, so first of all they wont be paying any kind of interest on a loan. Secondly, the money is coming out of their own pocket so they arent gonna be looking for a return ASAP like a bank would, cuz I'm assuming these people could take a £20million hit if they're as rich as I think they are. So that reduces our outflow by quite a lot whilst still maintaining our high income that we've always had. I dont see how that doesnt make us profitable.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Jumbo_ said:
The key player at the moment seem to be Jim O'Neill, chief economist at Goldman Sachs and a former director at the club. He's the one doing all the talking.
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I don't really know a lot about this whole Red Knight thing, I don't really care, but Jim O'Neill made circa £15 million for his own pockets when United did the bond issue malarkey...

Do you see him as a man who will put the club first?
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

That's not quite true, Goldman Sachs made £15m from the bond issue, not O'Neill and he's involved with the Red Knights on a personal level, it's got nothing to do with GS. He's also in trouble with GS (rumoured he'll have to resign) because he was vocal about his opposition of the bond issue and obviously as they employ him it's quite embarrassing. I do agree that for someone to stump up a massive amount of their personal wealth then they've got to have more than just a love for the club and the cynic in me says that there's got to be a bit more in it for him. David Gill said last week that Keith Harris is just interested in self promotion and I think to be fair, he's got a point but I think the premise is promising so we should at least wait and see what their proposal is.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

runedge said:
I guess it is too much to ask for, especially with the recession and everything. If I was asked to contribute about £500 of my own money for nothing but to keep the club alive, I'd do it without thinking (providing you could guarantee that the money wouldnt go to waste). I just assumed more fans would be as generous but I guess thats not being realistic.
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man, that quote alone would be enough to dismantle all those clichèes about english fans being less passionate than italians. hats off mate, some people might find your commitment and dedication to your club silly, but sure it's romantic.
respect :TU:
runedge said:
I understand what you're saying but these things are obviously considered before the Red Knights were "formed" and the proposal was made
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of course mate. but then again that's what we were talking about isn't it? i mean, u said that u would still prefere a "one man solution", a lone saviour rather than this group (for reasons that are absolutely agreable). i was just trying to explain that a "1 man solution" isn't possible in this case and that having a group that might actually have an interest in taking care of the club is already a great perspective and something we should be grateful for :)
i'm not saying that as a supporter (coz man utd is not my club), but as a football lover, man utd's situation is important to any fan in the world (me included :) ).
runedge said:
I know what "profits" mean. What I'm saying is that the Glazers have bought the club on borrowed money. The Red Knights wont be buying the club on borrowed money, so first of all they wont be paying any kind of interest on a loan. Secondly, the money is coming out of their own pocket so they arent gonna be looking for a return ASAP like a bank would, cuz I'm assuming these people could take a £20million hit if they're as rich as I think they are. So that reduces our outflow by quite a lot whilst still maintaining our high income that we've always had. I dont see how that doesnt make us profitable.
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not having to deal with that huge burden (the interests over the debt) would certainly improve the situation (a lot!), but if those figures i posted in my previous post are correct, then, even without the debts, your club profitability would be pretty poor (i reckon the market is to blame for this.... in the last 10 years the english football market has gone crazy and it's become extremely hard to make profits with football in england... despite the huge incomes english clubs get).

anyhow let's just hope this nightmare will end. the situation is extremely serious and almost every other club in europe that dealt with this sort of troubles, faced a tragic end..... but that doesn't mean this has to be the case here... we already have something to hang on to (this group)... if the red knights have half the dedication and the passion u have for man utd, then there's hope :)

Jumbo, thanks for the infos :)
do u happen to know wich was the interests rate applied to the loan? just a curiosity :)
as for harris interest in getting world wide promotion, well that's obvious... u can't even call it a hidden agenda, as every football club's owner in the world buys a club (also) to get that exposure and media attention that football can give...
but then again, his motives don't really matter. ;)
 
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Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

the moral of the story is that football teams no matter how much they win, how many fans they have, they are not a good investment/profitable, if normal companies were run like football clubs, we would have no companies.. LOL
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Team for today:

VDS
Brown Rio Vidic Evra
Scholes Carrick Gibson
Nani Valencia
Berba

First time the back 5 have played together since October 2008 apparently.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Worried about Berba being able to play the lone front man role, He needs to be disciplined tonight and stay high up the pitch as much as he can
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Yeah, he came on for Gibson and he played like we'd basically put some spastic kid on for a charity deal or something.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

The One was just paying homage to Bendtner's performance against Burnley earlier in the day...
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

man...that kid missed two very good opportunities...still need more composure ala Scholes. (but none of his chances were as good as the one that the Wolves had which was 7 yds one on one and kicked it over the top.)

Can't believe we won that...and i also can't believe we paid Berba so much money. I know that he's not the lone-striker type of player, but still, when you're in a position where there are almost no strikers aside from you, you have to play better!!! Did you see that crazy throw Van der Sar had?? Freed up Diouf, Park and Berba onto a 3 on 2 counter. Berba was the one closest to the net when that ball was thrown, and at the end, he was still 3/4 forward in the pitch when Park and Diouf are in the box. Only a goal up against a side that was piling the pressure from then on, I think he really should've ran up, created more space for Diouf or at least give him another option. Don't just walk up the pitch!!!

*edit* Great! so Rooney might not make it for Milan. Seems like its only Diouf and Berba as our strikers for that match. What you guys think? same formation as today?? don't think that'd work...

and any words on Giggs?
 
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Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Harsh on Berba. Just not a lead striker. Thought he at least put in more effort than most players today. Yes, he's not that fast, and not especially fit, but was uber-keen to get stuck in and close down.

Diouf was an embarassment, I'm fairly sure he neither controlled nor passed a ball successfully in his 30 minutes. I described it to a friend as, imagine you or I got called by United...

I actually thought we did pretty well against one of the least ambitious teams I've ever seen. Wolves strategy appeared to consist of passing it backwards to their 2 DMFs, then to their CBs, then to their keeper who would lump it forward, and give their 6 defensive mids time to get back in place for the next attack. And that was when they were down 1-0. If not for the fluke deflection they wouldn't have had a single effort in the second half.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

It looks like Wes has a broken metatarsal, so could be out for a while...
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

:LOL: Calm down dear, If we don't go through then we didn't deserve to especially with them needing 2 without reply.

Looking at the big 3 leagues (PL, Serie A and La Liga) their all very tight and on current evidence their isn't a standout side in Europe like previous years (Us and Barca) so I wouldn't bet against the teams fighting for the titles getting knocked out in the CL and giving them the edge to win the league.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Love it, so United's 'first choice' back five of:
EVDS
Wes,Rio,Vida,Evra

Played Saturday for the first time this season, and also the last time. Sigh. What a year.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

That assumes that Rafael can manage 90 minutes for (more or less) the first time in his career.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

It's your game to lose. 90% you won't. I just can't see Leonardo putting a perfect tactical formation and beating Fergie.

It may depend on individual skills and we have a good number of players who can do so. But 2-0 will be tough!!

Is Roneey gonna play? Pato is in the lineup.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

The big questions are obviously Rooney and the other midfielder, Id like to see a :

- - - - -vdS
??? - Rio - Vidic - Evra
- - Fletch Scholes
- - - - -Park
Valencia - - - - - - Nani
- - - -Berba/Rooney

Just pray that if Park plays there he can be as affective as he was against Villa in the final
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

I think Rooney will start on the bench and depending on the situation at HT we'll either see him on or not.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

No way, is that true about Rafael this season? My apologies then, I swear I remember him hobbling off a few times. Must have been Fabio ;)

Agree with YounGun, Rooney will be rested at the start, with the hope that he won't be needed. Be good for the team confidence if we can win such an important match without him. Midfield is the real problem area, we more or less have to play a non CMF in there, which is a real disadvantage. I think it will be Park:

-----------VDS----------
-Rafael-Rio--Vida---Evra-
----Scholes--Fletcher----
----------Park-----------
-Valencia---------Nani---
----------Berba----------

Biggest problem the above team will face is that it won't be effective on the break. Have a bad feeling it'll be a United 'close up shop' performance, which just seems silly against a team that we're clearly fitter than.

If Pato doesn't play it would almost be worth man-marking Ronaldinho, because I just don't see the spark coming from the other players up front.

As I mentioned in the Milan thread, it'll come down to first goal, and when it comes. I can see us getting undone by two quick strikes, but if they get one early it'll remind us that we're actually quite good at attacking, and I'm sure there are goals in that Milan defence.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

The best thing about Park right now is that he's intelligent enough to link up effectively with Berbatov, something Nani lacks.

It's hard to call whether we'll go 4-4-2 or not if Rooney's fit. Scholes tends to be better with an extra man's protection in midfield and he's played a lot of consecutive games lately so maybe 4-5-1 would suit us better, with Park as the third man and Nani on the left again. Only problem with that is Nani has gone back to being average since he's been on the left. I dunno :LOL:
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Is there no one else we could play alongside Scholes and Fletch in midfield? IMO Park would be better coming off the bench if we're gonna use him in that position.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

He did well there in the first leg and was more central when he came on for Nani on Saturday. He played there for PSV too, especially well once against Milan so I think he'd be fine. Gibson is the other option and he was a bit crap at the weekend so not sure Fergie would trust him in such a big match.
 
Re: Manchester United Supporters Thread.

Park was excellent in that role at the San Siro.

His and Fletcher's pressure on the Milan midfield created time and space for Scholes and Carrick to control possession.

Even without Carrick, that side should be good enough not to lose by two goals at home.

I can see us dropping deep and allowing them the majority of the possession and probably hitting them on the break, a bit like we did in that 1-0 against Roma at home in 2008.
 
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