Manchester United Thread

I like Totti ,but I hate Rossi did a Middlesbrough fan got knived outside the stadium last year in Roma?
 
El Diego said:
I just hate Totti, always have! He is one of them players that makes me cringe when I watch him swagger about the field. Talented, yes but a wanker at the same time.
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Totti act sometimes as a moron on the field, but he's a very smart guy trust me.

He make's a lot for childrens of Rome and for UNICEF as well.

http://www.unicef.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/IT/IDPagina/1120

http://www.unicef.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/IT/IDPagina/501

http://www.unicef.it/flex/cm/pages/ServeBLOB.php/L/IT/IDPagina/1529
 
@ beboq: Yep

@ Lo: I think a main problem in the stadium was highlighted by UEFA, italian law means its the police that are responsible for order, whereas in england its stewards. I think that has an effect aswell, some guy standing in a yellow illumous vest wont make anyone scared, but at the same time they wont really make anyone angry or violent either, whereas standing infront of riot police must be a scary situation. And with whats happend in italy, like i said earlier, its not surprising they are heavy handed.

As for outside the stadium, i dont really know what you can do about that tbh, other then loads of police and a lot of control.
But thats really about hardcore "fans", which differs from club to club and country to country.
 
tiktiktiktik said:
@ Lo: I think a main problem in the stadium was highlighted by UEFA, italian law means its the police that are responsible for order, whereas in england its stewards. I think that has an effect aswell, some guy standing in a yellow illumous vest wont make anyone scared, but at the same time they wont really make anyone angry or violent either, whereas standing infront of riot police must be a scary situation. And with whats happend in italy, like i said earlier, its not surprising they are heavy handed.
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spot on, mate ;)
u're absolutely right. that's why, according to the pisano act, in 1 year police will be taken out of our stadia, and more stewards will take police place inside them.
but we really have to hurry up :(
 
ALAIN said:
yes it's never your fault ..You went to Lille=Troubles,yOU went to Roma=Troubles, so maybe you could look at yourself too in a mirror...

Ps;i'm not saying it's your fault but stop always blaming the others...
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:lmao: Yes you are.

And by the way, if it WAS our fans causing all the problems, surely you'd see a lot more of that at Old Trafford. But we dont.
 
lo zio said:
p.s. why are u blaming totti?
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Easy, because Scholes got carded for going after Totti, don't we remember the World Cup last year? Ronaldo, Ronaldo Ronaldo, England's scape goat as to why they lost, regardless or not whether it was true or not, in the English fan's eyes, there was no other option.

Though I do find it a bit offensive, that Utd. fans are lashing out at Totti, you guys have a firecracker of your own over there at Old Trafford. . . I think his number is 7? I could be just going crazy, but I remember a player who's lost his temper quite a few times.
 
RuneEdge said:
And by the way, if it WAS our fans causing all the problems, surely you'd see a lot more of that at Old Trafford. But we dont.
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that's wrong, mate.
i've been at old trafford many times and i can tell u that is very, very, very much easier to guarrantee security in that stadium than in italian stadia, for many reasons (supporters usually are seat down, ends tickets are much more expensive than in italy, surveillance system -even if talking about surveillance system some italian stadia are on the english level).

in my opinion english supporters didn't changed at all in the past 20 years. you weren't devils those days, as u are not angels today..... what really changed is your background. Now you're put in conditions that disallow u to do anything bad (modern stadia, stewards, highly repressive laws and an exemplar application of law).
so it's quite natural that your supporters act fairly when they're at their own home.
but when english fans go in france, spain, and especially italy, then they find different conditions, the same conditions that italian supporters use to find each week (and that are the 1st cause of our problems).

that's the big difference between italy\spain\france\turkey and england. in england, no matter if u're a thug or a civilized person, u HAVE to respect the law.
in other countries in europe people at the stadium think they can do anything they want, as our stadia (in italy, france, spain and turkey) are considered like a "no mans land", where the law has no value.

so in our countries security is almost up to us, the fans. if we are polite, civilized and law respectful, then we will act normally........ if we are not like this, then it happens what happened this year in catania, or in sevilla, or in paris or lyon......
and it may happens that 1, 10, 100 or, 1000 idiots ruin the reputation of a country of 64 millions people. :(

anyway, talking about yesterday, well, i wasn't there, but i'm honestly sure that english guys caused some troubles (as they always cause troubles when they come in italy), BUT this has nothing to do with those bastards romans who were carrying knives..... so no matter what u did, we did something worst. :(
 
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Himawari said:
Easy, because Scholes got carded for going after Totti, don't we remember the World Cup last year? Ronaldo, Ronaldo Ronaldo, England's scape goat as to why they lost, regardless or not whether it was true or not, in the English fan's eyes, there was no other option.

Though I do find it a bit offensive, that Utd. fans are lashing out at Totti, you guys have a firecracker of your own over there at Old Trafford. . . I think his number is 7? I could be just going crazy, but I remember a player who's lost his temper quite a few times.
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I think you mean number 8.
 
lo zio said:
that's wrong, mate.
i've been at old trafford many times and i can tell u that is very, very, very much easier to guarrantee security in that stadium than in italian stadia, for many reasons (supporters usually are seat down, ends tickets are much more expensive than in italy, surveillance system -even if talking about surveillance system some italian stadia are on the english level).

in my opinion english supporters didn't changed at all in the past 20 years. you weren't devils those days, as u are not angels today..... what really changed is your background. Now you're put in conditions that disallow u to do anything bad (modern stadia, stewards, highly repressive laws and an exemplar application of law).
so it's quite natural that your supporters act fairly when they're at their own home.
but when english fans go in france, spain, and especially italy, then they find different conditions, the same conditions that italian supporters use to find each week (and that are the 1st cause of our problems).

that's the big difference between italy\spain\france\turkey and england. in england, no matter if u're a thug or a civilized person, u HAVE to respect the law.
in other countries in europe people at the stadium think they can do anything they want, as our stadia (in italy, france, spain and turkey) are considered like a "no mans land", where the law has no value.

so in our countries security is almost up to us, the fans. if we are polite, civilized and law respectful, then we will act normally........ if we are not like this, then it happens what happened this year in catania, or in sevilla, or in paris or lyon......
and it may happens that 1, 10, 100 or, 1000 idiots ruin the reputation of a country of 64 millions people. :(

anyway, talking about yesterday, well, i wasn't there, but i'm honestly sure that english guys caused some troubles (as they always cause troubles when they come in italy), BUT this has nothing to do with those bastards romans who were carrying knives..... so no matter what u did, we did something worst. :(
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you make some good points, but they dont apply here. The reports comming out of rome are that the United supporters were indiscrimnitley attacked by.... the police. That is a fundamental flaw in your argument. If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized? The conditions in england also need to be noted, do not include baton weidling police who randomly beat away supporters including the elderly and females. These reports are comming from the BBC and other news agencies as well as United supporters and officials. Your basically saying without law all people will act like animals, and you have to apply the law and policing in order to keep the animals in line, if not you have situations like in italy where the animals are free to roam... I think its not so cut and dry. I think there are bigger issues here then whats on the surface.
 
lo zio said:
i'd say there's something lower mate. tv showed images of totti's ankles, after "the poulsen special treatment"..... they didn't even look like ankles anymore.

btw, why are we talking about totti? he had a very good game yesterday.


edit: good post tiktiktiktik, i agree with u;)
we have big problems, but we're also working on them.
after the pisano act application, the situation inside our stadia changed a lot.
just to make u an example; 3 weeks ago while i was entering inside palermo's stadium, i was checked in by a steward who asked me to leave my belt, coz it could represent a "weapon".
our stadia are getting safer places (actually my stadium has always been a safe place), but when an idiot wanders around the city carrying a knife, what shall we do? Should we check each citizen to see if they're carrying anything that could be dangerous?
i remember that in the"bad news for italy" thread Cloud wrote that there was no difference between disorders inside or outside the stadium. but the problem is that this just ain't true. we can "clean" our stadia.... but it's unpossible to "clean" a whole city :(
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well totti is bringing brought up because he is no angel... and just because poulsen wrecked his ankle, it doesnt give him the right to spit on someone. Totti is a jerk, but a beatiful football player, which allows him to be a jerk... ironic eh...

scholes isnt a jerk and certainly doesnt act like totti, but he made a stupid stupid foul, i think comparing totti to scholes is not fair and vice versa, in this case totti comes out shining, but overall i think he will never be universally loved because he is so contriversial
 
No one is blameless in this situation. roma fans for charging the barrier and throwing stuff, the manc fans for retaliation and the police who were just waiting for the chance to act.

If you go to european aways in italy you have to expect that indimidating treatment, or dont bloody go. You have to just sit there and take it watch the game and then get out , you certainly dont react to it no matter how much you want to.
 
antred said:
No one is blameless in this situation. roma fans for charging the barrier and throwing stuff, the manc fans for retaliation and the police who were just waiting for the chance to act.

If you go to european aways in italy you have to expect that indimidating treatment, or dont bloody go. You have to just sit there and take it watch the game and then get out , you certainly dont react to it no matter how much you want to.
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no, but the police shouldnt be blamend at all! And there in the middle of it! it was few manc fans, not the entire section. human reaction dictates if someone takes a swipe at you, you swipe back. the police are there to prevent this from happening and if it does to "police" the situation. Thats not what happend, now is it? You have a good point, but again its incredibly troubling to me when the police are agitating the situation, it doesnt help italy in this crucial time. This could lead to a ban from all european competetions... you never know...
 
csaunders said:
no, but the police shouldnt be blamend at all! And there in the middle of it! it was few manc fans, not the entire section. human reaction dictates if someone takes a swipe at you, you swipe back. the police are there to prevent this from happening and if it does to "police" the situation. Thats not what happend, now is it? You have a good point, but again its incredibly troubling to me when the police are agitating the situation, it doesnt help italy in this crucial time. This could lead to a ban from all european competetions... you never know...
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the police are waiting for a reaction. Those few united fans gave them a reaction. If the united fans dont react the police dont come down on them hard, and if they do they have no fallback excuse.

Its common sense in the end. That doesnt dismiss the idiocy and encitement of the italians, but until italy sorts itself out those away games there have to be treated with utmost precaution - that includes biting your lip and turning a blind eye if necessary.
 
antred said:
the police are waiting for a reaction. Those few united fans gave them a reaction. If the united fans dont react the police dont come down on them hard, and if they do they have no fallback excuse.

Its common sense in the end. That doesnt dismiss the idiocy and encitement of the italians, but until italy sorts itself out those away games there have to be treated with utmost precaution - that includes biting your lip and turning a blind eye if necessary.
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huh im not following you... at all. The police are there to prevent violence not punish. They should have arrested the offending fans, not randomly beat the shit out of away supporters. The police acted as judge, jury and executioner. This is inexcusable in a free society such as Italy. When you see police beating unarmed and unprotected citizens, there is a bigger problem then football violence.
 
ok, mate let's reason toghether about this. it might be a good way to put things in the right perspective.

you say:
The reports comming out of rome are that the United supporters were indiscrimnitley attacked by.... the police.
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now, i can see a sort of a paradox in this phrase.
look. i buy i newspaper this morning, and i read that "the police attacked english supporters indiscrimnitley" .
at this point the first thing that comes into my head is.. WHY??? those people are supposed to protect us, they are paid for this. So why should they attack people without a reason(coz this means "indiscrimnitley")? i could understand if 1 person would attack another person without a reason....u know people sometimes do weird things.... but when u say "police" u're not talking about 1 man, u're talking about a lot of men. so what? did they just get out of their mind? all toghether? in the same time?

so, just by reading that phrase, being a reasonable man, i wouldn't believe to that newspaper.

let's go further. u say
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
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then i could reply to u; Why then do policemen always attack the same persons? better, the same kind of persons?
i mean, i, and millions of people (like Himawari, according to what he wrote), never had any kind of problems with the police at the stadium. if they really attack people "indiscrimnitley" why i wasn't ever "attacked"? do u think it's just a coincidence? it isnt. the truth is that policemen DON'T ATTACK INDISCRIMNITLEY". let me tell u this; each time u hear or read from someone or somewhere the word "indiscrimnitley", then u have to realize that what u're listening or reading is just wrong. NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT A REASON. So, if someone tells u that the people was attacked indiscrimnitley, it means that he doesn't want to tell u why they were attacked, or that he didn't understand why they were attacked.

i usually see football matches from the sideline tribunes, coz our ends conditions are awful and i like to stay confortable. And , even if here in palermo, we never had troubles with our guest supporters, sometimes it happens that palermo's supporters in the ends have some problems with policemen (policemen never beated our supporters, but sometimes, they almost did it, the situation just calmed down before the degeneration). some of my friends prefere to see the match from the ends. they're not ultras but they say that they can "feel" the game when they are there. 5 years ago i had a conversation with one of them about policemen in that stadium. i asked him "why do our ultras have problems with our policemen (because of course, when i see the policemen loosing their coolness, i think that the ultras must have done something, it's obvious)?
then he replied "policemen are all bastards. they have such an horrible attitude. they act like fascists. It looks like they wanna stimulate our reaction. "
then i said to him "are u idiot or something? they're policemen not SS. They're just absolving their duties, trying to keep us safe. why should they act like this! it has no sense! they are here to avoid troubles, not to create them, and, according to the fact that they have problems always with the same 60\90 persons, it must means that those 60\90 persons actualy do something. Otherwise, why each time i talked with a policemen, i never had any problem? why they are always kind and polite with me? "
it was such a weird conversation, coz my friend is a nice, educated and cultured person; he's an university student (he was), but still he talked like an ultras.

then last year i had the chance to talk to a policeman. and i finally understood. it all starts from misunderstanding and fear.
this policemen told me that the "stadium duty" is a hell. Nobody wants to do it, especially in the ends.
because making the "stadium duty" it means staying in front of hundreds of guys excited for the match and angry (with policemen). so doing that stadium duty in the tribunes it's quite easy. people are all seat down, polite, "educated".
but in the ends there isn't only polite and "educated" people. there are also thugs. he said "those guys don't tolerate the authority, they don't tolerate us. no matter what we do, they are always against us. so if there's any problem, no matter what we do, they start throwing us everything lighters, coins, chairs, sticks. if 2 guys are having some troubles and start a fight, what should we do? we have to go there and try to divide them, to calm down them. but do u know what happens when we do it? then 50 guys come against us screaming and throwing objects.
so each time something "bad" happens, we have 2 choices; we can do anything and just let the situation degenerate. or we can act, but when we act, then the situation also degenerate because we acted. that's the reason why we have to be so "authoritary". because if those thugs aren't "scared" by us, they will attack us. and it's really frightening when 50, 80, 100, guys throw each kind of objects to u, screaming that u're a bastard, that they will beat u, and things like theese."

so on one side we have policemen who are scared by the mass, and because of their fear, they try to be as much authoritary as they can.
On the other side we have some guys who don't tolerate authority, and are prejudicially agaisnt the policemen (coz they consider policemen as the biggest expression of authority).
as u can see this situation can't bring anything good.

but it's all about context, about scenario. the same policemen are always nice and kind with me and all the other people in the stadium. coz they aren't scared by us. they don't see us as dangerous persons.

in my job i come in contact with robbers, petty criminals, murderers, mafiosi.
and i learned that their reactions depend by how they're approached. Csaunders, u're an educated, cultured man; if i'm rude with u, then your reaction will be "why are u so rude with me?". generally if you're rude with a thug, he won't ask u just why, he will overreact being even more rude than u. so it's all about approach, it's all about context.
it's not about being animals, like u say. but it's about instinctive reactions. our instinctive reactions might be different, depending on how we are stimulated, approached. and the instinctive reaction of 1,3,8 people, in a particular scenario as a stadium, may degenerate into a riot involving much more people.
and an educated, cultured person can control his instinctive reactions better than a thug, of course.
that's the reason why policemen troubles are always in the ends and not in the sideline tribunes. the ends here in italy are very cheap, poor people, and thugs can be found only in the ends.

my friend, when i talked to him about the policemen at the stadium, replied to me like he was an ultras. but if i'd go with him to the theatre for an opera, and a "steward" would come to him, asking not to speak loud, he wouldn't be rude. He would just smile and do what the steward told him. this because he don't see the steward as an expression of authority. it's just a gentle steward who is asking him to be quiet. so he won't be angry with the steward.... he will be embarassed for the troubles he caused by talking loud.
when the context changes, the reaction changes too.


Our policemen aren't hostile. they're unprepared to face the mass (when the mass is composed by thugs, or by drunk people like english guys yesterday). coz of this unpreparation, they are scared, coz of their fear, sometimes they overreact.
our ultras are not (all) devils (exactly as those english guys yesterday). they just see our policemen (with their stick and all the equipment) as enemies (while they aren't).

so, to reply to your question:
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
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.. i can answer by saying that is not the police the ones causing the violence. violence comes from the misunderstanding between (some) people and the police. the problem is not the police neither the thugs or drunk people. the real problem is their relationship. the relationship between policemen and those guys. our policemen are good people. they just can't handle our ends. that's why we should put in our stadia just stewards.

in a cinema, ina a theatre, in english stadia, the context is different. the fans don't consider the stewards as "enemies", and the stewards aren't scared by the fans..... coz the are prepared.

that's why in a cinema, in a theatre, in an english stadium there are no disorders.

it's all about context, preparation, good approach, mate.
without theese conditions, there are misunderstandings. misunderstandings bring to fear. fear bring to disorders.

action - reaction. as i said before, nothing happens without a reason (and nobody beats people "indiscrimnitley").

this is about the police.
but when we talk about people walking with a knife, we're talking about criminals, maybe petty criminals, but still criminals.

@ Csaunders: mate, our conversations are becoming really an hard test for my english!:lol: It was a hell of a work to put all theese stuff in english, so sorry if i'm not so clear sometimes :D
 
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@ lo zio how old are you? too smart to be in your 20`s (I may not agree w/ your views all the time,but what stock should I invest in :D )
 
lo zio said:
ok, mate let's reason toghether about this. it might be a good way to put things in the right perspective.

you say:


now, i can see a sort of a paradox in this phrase.
look. i buy i newspaper this morning, and i read that "the police attacked english supporters indiscrimnitley" .
at this point the first thing that comes into my head is.. WHY??? those people are supposed to protect us, they are paid for this. So why should they attack people without a reason(coz this means "indiscrimnitley")? i could understand if 1 person would attack another person without a reason....u know people sometimes do weird things.... but when u say "police" u're not talking about 1 man, u're talking about a lot of men. so what? did they just get out of their mind? all toghether? in the same time?

so, just by reading that phrase, being a reasonable man, i wouldn't believe to that newspaper.

let's go further. u say

then i could reply to u; Why then do policemen always attack the same persons? better, the same kind of persons?
i mean, i, and millions of people (like Himawari, according to what he wrote), never had any kind of problems with the police at the stadium. if they really attack people "indiscrimnitley" why i wasn't ever "attacked"? do u think it's just a coincidence? it isnt. the truth is that policemen DON'T ATTACK INDISCRIMNITLEY". let me tell u this; each time u hear or read from someone or somewhere the word "indiscrimnitley", then u have to realize that what u're listening or reading is just wrong. NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT A REASON. So, if someone tells u that the people was attacked indiscrimnitley, it means that he doesn't want to tell u why they were attacked, or that he didn't understand why they were attacked.

i usually see football matches from the sideline tribunes, coz our ends conditions are awful and i like to stay confortable. And , even if here in palermo, we never had troubles with our guest supporters, sometimes it happens that palermo's supporters in the ends have some problems with policemen (policemen never beated our supporters, but sometimes, they almost did it, the situation just calmed down before the degeneration). some of my friends prefere to see the match from the ends. they're not ultras but they say that they can "feel" the game when they are there. 5 years ago i had a conversation with one of them about policemen in that stadium. i asked him "why do our ultras have problems with our policemen (because of course, when i see the policemen loosing their coolness, i think that the ultras must have done something, it's obvious)?
then he replied "policemen are all bastards. they have such an horrible attitude. they act like fascists. It looks like they wanna stimulate our reaction. "
then i said to him "are u idiot or something? their policemen not SS. They're just absolving their duties, trying to keep us safe. why should they act like this! it has no sense! they are here to avoid troubles, not to create them, and, according to the fact that they have problems always with the same 60\90 persons, it must means that those 60\90 persons actualy do something. Otherwise, why each time i talked with a policemen, i never had any problem? why they are always kind and polite with me? "
it was such a weird conversation, coz my friend is a nice, educated and cultured person; he's an university student (he was), but still he talked like an ultras.

then last year i had the chance to talk to a policeman. and i finally understood. it all starts from misunderstanding and fear.
this policemen told me that the "stadium duty" is a hell. Nobody wants to do it, especially in the ends.
because making the "stadium duty" it means staying in front of hundreds of guys excited for the match and angry (with policemen). so doing that stadium duty in the tribunes it's quite easy. people are all seat down, polite, "educated".
but in the ends there isn't only polite and "educated" people. there are also thugs. he said "those guys don't tolerate the authority, they don't tolerate us. no matter what we do, they are always against us. so if there's any problem, no matter what we do, they start throwing us everything lighters, coins, chairs, sticks. if 2 guys are having some troubles and start a fight, what should we do? we have to go there and try to divide them, to calm down them. but do u know what happens when we do it? then 50 guys come against us screaming and throwing objects.
so each time something "bad" happens, we have 2 choices; we can do anything and just let the situation degenerate. or we can act, but when we act, then the situation also degenerate because we acted. that's the reason why we have to be so "authoritary". because if those thugs aren't "scared" by us, they will attack us. and it's really frightening when 50, 80, 100, guys throw each kind of objects to u, screaming that u're a bastard, that they will beat u, and things like theese."

so on one side we have policemen who are scared by the mass, and because of their fear, they try to be as much authoritary as they can.
On the other side we have some guys who don't tolerate authority, and are prejudicially agaisnt the policemen (coz they consider policemen as the biggest expression of authority).
as u can see this situation can't bring anything good.

but it's all about context, about scenario. the same policemen are always nice and kind with me and all the other people in the stadium. coz they aren't scared by us. they don't see us as dangerous persons.

in my job i come in contact with robbers, petty criminals, murderers, mafiosi.
and i learned that their reactions depend by how they're approached. Csaunders, u're an educated, cultured man; if i'm rude with u, then your reaction will be "why are u so rude with me?". generally if you're rude with a thug, he won't ask u just why, he will overreact being even more rude than u. so it's all about approach, it's all about context.
it's not about being animals, like u say. but it's about instinctive reactions. our instinctive reactions might be different, depending on how we are stimulated, approached. and the instinctive reaction of 1,3,8 people, in a particular scenario as a stadium, may degenerate into a riot involving much more people.
and an educated, cultured person can control his instinctive reactions better than a thug, of course.
that's the reason why policemen troubles are always in the ends and not in the sideline tribunes. the ends here in italy are very cheap, poor people, and thugs can be found only in the ends.

my friend, when i talked to him about the policemen at the stadium, replied to me like he was an ultras. but if i'd go with him to the theatre for an opera, and a "steward" would come to him, asking not to speak loud, he wouldn't be rude. He would just smile and do what the steward told him. this because he don't see the steward as an expression of authority. it's just a gentle steward who is asking him to be quiet. so he won't be angry with the steward.... he will be embarassed for the troubles he caused by talking loud.
when the context changes, the reaction changes too.


Our policemen aren't hostile. they're unprepared to face the mass (when the mass is composed by thugs, or by drunk people like english guys yesterday). coz of this unpreparation, they are scared, coz of their fear, sometimes they overreact.
our ultras are not (all) devils (exactly as those english guys yesterday). they just see our policemen (with their stick and all the equipment) as enemies (while they aren't).

so, to reply to your question:

.. i can answer by saying that is not the police the ones causing the violence. violence comes from the misunderstanding between (some) people and the police. the problem is not the police neither the thugs or drunk people. the real problem is their relationship. the relationship between policemen and those guys. our policemen are good people. they just can't handle our ends. that's why we should put in our stadia just stewards.

in a cinema, ina a theatre, in english stadia, the context is different. the fans don't consider the stewards as "enemies", and the stewards aren't scared by the fans..... coz the are prepared.

that's why in a cinema, in a theatre, in an english stadium there are no disorders.

it's all about context, preparation, good approach, mate.
without theese conditions, there are misunderstandings. misunderstandings bring to fear. fear bring to disorders.

action - reaction. as i said before, nothing happens without a reason (and nobody beats people "indiscrimnitley").

this is about the police.
but when we talk about people walking with a knife, we're talking about criminals, maybe petty criminals, but still criminals.

@ Csaunders: mate, our conversations are becoming really an hard test for my english!:lol: It was a hell of a work to put all theese stuff in english, so sorry if i'm not so clear sometimes :D
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my friend but the police dont have to react violently to obtain authority... they can show force and be intimating in other ways that dont include violence. This is the flaw I see in your argument. The police reaction should never be violent, no matter what the action upon them was. This is what keeps a society civil. Once the police cross that line, its not longer police "policing" its now vigilantism. Its the police taking the law into there own hands. They should use reasonable force, i dont know how bashing a female who is unarmed is deemed reasonable. BUT as you state the police are not prepared to deal with violence, and this I alluded to earlier when I said its bigger then some random thugs acting out at a football match. There are huge problems in Italian football, and unprepared policeman is one of them. You and I are basically agreeing on the same thing I think. The way fans attend football matches in Italy MUST be changed. This kind of behaviour needs to end on all ends. We need peace in football.

p.s.
your english is better then mine
 
csaunders said:
my friend but the police dont have to react violently to obtain authority... they can show force and be intimating in other ways that dont include violence. This is the flaw I see in your argument. The police reaction should never be violent, no matter what the action upon them was. This is what keeps a society civil. Once the police cross that line, its not longer police "policing" its now vigilantism. Its the police taking the law into there own hands. They should use reasonable force, i dont know how bashing a female who is unarmed is deemed reasonable. BUT as you state the police are not prepared to deal with violence, and this I alluded to earlier when I said its bigger then some random thugs acting out at a football match. There are huge problems in Italian football, and unprepared policeman is one of them. You and I are basically agreeing on the same thing I think. The way fans attend football matches in Italy MUST be changed. This kind of behaviour needs to end on all ends. We need peace in football.

p.s.
your english is better then mine
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sorry saunders but what do you want them to do? give the fans a stern telling off? Thye are at a match for goodness sake with thousands of people. While i dont condone it they will use force as a measure of control. As lo zio says theres a minority of police compared to the fans, so they need the batons to keep order.

What i was saying is that they will USE force if they see opposing fans (in this case man utd as the smaller minority and as such more controllable) react to the roma fans. Its not vigilante in the least
 
the police dont have to react violently to obtain authority... they can show force and be intimating in other ways that dont include violence.
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of course mate, that's a right statement. And i'm sure that each policeman would agree with u...... when is seat down, calm, behind a monitor.
but when u face 100 guys screaming to u that u're a bastard, that they will kill u, and bullshit like theese, the situation is different.

there are a lot of antropologic studies about "the mass" and how people reactions change, when they feel they are part of a mass. Now i know, it might sounds crazy, but when we feel we're a part of a mass our "animal instincts" overwhelm us. our instintive reactions overwhelm our reasoning ability.
Police discovered that the murderer of Agent Raciti in catania was a 17 years old guy, son of a doctor and an engineer. he was supposed to be an educated guy, a cultured guy, a nice guy, and he probably is. but that evening he literally lost his mind. he lost his inibitions cause he felt he was a part of "something bigger", and he did something that, in "normal conditions" he wouldn't have done. that evening an innocent, educated guy turned into a killer. this means that in an "adeguate situation" we can loose control.
of course, as i said before educated and cultured persons are more able to control their instinctive reactions... and probaly that guy wasn't able to control himself coz, even if he is educated, he is very young.
now each police force, everywhere in the world knows this. thay know that in certain situation, even a nice guy can turn into a threat for their safeness (R.I.P. agent Raciti). So they go through a special preparation to face situation like, big concerts or politic manifestations).
but this perparation isn't enough to control a stadium. talking about security a stadium is an hell. really worst that an avenue or a "place for concerts". nothing can prepare u to this experience (as italians policemen know and as english policemen knew in the 80s).

when u're facing this kind of threat, u just can't "measure your force". morover there's no use to intimate, as anybody will even hear u. our policemen just loose their coolness, exactly as those guy do. opposite situation-same reactions. i know it sounds insane but i'm quite sure that even u and me, if we were in that situtation (10 of us in front of 100 of them, as Antred wrote) we would have a similar reaction. when u fear for your life u can't be cool, u can't reason, u can't measure your reactions (of course i'm not saying that is normal to die in italian stadia..... "just" 2 persons died in our stadia in the last 20 years.... but our policemen always have that feeling of danger, of course, no matter how many people died in the last 20, 30 or 40 years).

it's quite similar to the situations of militaries when they're in action abroad. quite often we hear about disgusting things done by our guys (in iraq, afghanistan, ex-jugoslavia territories, albania). do u think that those guys are really so cruel, so mean, so "animals". they aren't. Sometimes adrenaline might bring u to do unbelievable things, things that u wouldn't ever do when you're "cool". we have a lot of usa military bases here in italy. When Usa soldiers come here from iraq, they have to follow a "special rehabilitiation program" that helps them in gettin back to the civil society. i was astonished the first time i heard about it, but if u think to it, it's quite natural. the only undenyable truth is that we are all animals, no matter how educated, cultured or civilized we are. that's a matter of fact. and u can realize it when u see that illogical anger in some thugs eyes in the stadia...... u can realize it when u see the fear in our policemen eyes.

as u say this situation must end now. and we can do it, now we understood how to do it. by building new stadia, and by keeping our police forces out of our stadia. it's quite easy, but it will require at least a couple of years , imo :(
by now, juve is buildin his brand new stadium (it will be ready for next year) udinese, palermo, napoli, and reggina are building their new stadia. messina and torino already have their new stadia (they built them last year). other clubs are approving projects for their new stadia.

all theese new stadia will be owned by the clubs, they won't be owned by our cities; and this will allow our cities-boards to keep their police forces away (cause the clubs will provide about stadia security, like in england).
as i said before we're on our way :)


EDIT: sorry bash-it, i started typing before u posted, so i couldn't notice u were taking us back on topic :) . csaunders if u want, we can continue our conversation in the "bad news for italy" thread (wich would be more appropriate) so we won't bother anymore man utd supporters :)



concerning silva's goal it was reallt amazing. even more beautiful than the one he scored against inter :)
 
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Couple of points id like to hit on here why was there no Italian Police the other side of fence yet only Man Utd side of fence.After Roma scored clearly you see Roma fans running to fence antagonising but no where was Police to stop them. Also Roma fans were lobbing stuff over to Man Utd fans all night fireworks clearly not checked and this all started it because Man utd fan stupidly lobbed back but wouldnt of happened if they were conviscated.

Why was an old 50/60 year old guy completely battered on the floor 15/16 times when he was doing nought just covering himself up this is caught on tv and been repeatedly shown on TV today. By the way by covering himself from blow to the head his knuckles busted in the process quite frankly the Italian Police willy nilly waving of the batons was nothing short of barbaric. If his hands were not in way he could of easily and more the likely ended up with serious head injuries and possibly brain damage and tell me you liek to see that i dont think so. A guy said on sky sports news a 14 year old boy that right 14 year old got battered by group of Italian police there nothing more then thugs themselves and should lose there jobs. In fact if a Police officer done that over here he would of lost his job there no doubt about it the way that guy used his baton was like he had some hidden desire.

Sorry but as a Policeman you use reasonable force not some sick game also reports saying Italian police chiefs were trying to stop there colleagues going mental. At ned of day i see nothing more the poor Police handling of the matter and even worse it feels like one big setup by Italian Police.

Maybe Italy will learn when all there teams are chucked out of competition and football banned for years over there. Because the next time somebody will end up killed and how many deaths does it take to make a change. At end of day if UK can get it right then so can Italy im sorry but some of scenes of Italian police were nothing short of sick and barbaric.

Yes there was thugs in crowd of Man Utd fans an no i dont condone there behaviour but at end of day innocent people were getting battered there at thats not on. If Police wasnt so poorly setup them scenes would not of happened in Rome the other night simple as. And as for stabbing how are these fans getting stabbed as they enter ground surely there Police there to stop this or do Police turn a blind eye to these Ultra fans. ?

Italy football is a dire state and until the Goverment makes a huge change over there and our Goverment in the Uk get involved nothing will change. I dont like to speculate but it all seems way to corrupt to me like it was one big setup thats only plausible answer to why the Police were setup as they were other night.

Edit: Oh ye and a Italian Policeman pushing a women away absolutely lowest of the low its on video and they were talking calmly and this Police officer pushed her BF shielded her and smacked him with Baton. There sick there not Police at all there are as bad as people who cause the fights and id go as far as saying they are more then suspect to being back handed by groups out there.Italian Newspaper for the Uk was saying about it guy on TV also that there are reports of it was a setup and this corruption is rife through the forces.

As David Platt said on sky sports the Police do not help matters out there all they do is fuel the fire and cause more hatred its like your friend getting battered who done nothing you will help him because he is your friend this is what causes people to get angry and turn agaisnt Police. At end of day if Italian Police were set up much better last night none of this would of happened there tatics were flawed and it was only asking for trouble or maybe only asking for a smacking.

Time to bring out the videos if you serious condone that action of the Policeman to continuously wack that guy your nothing short of an animal yourself imo. He does nothing guy in brown coat ive watched video countless time he hides because he old and scared to death ye Policeman continuosly batters him like its some game . A fan there saying stop got his hand out yet Policeman carries on wacking him i really hope that guy loses his job what he deserves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZOvxViARqs

Its happened so many times before Boro fans have been stabbed yet English get the blame its about time someone stood up to these barbaric Police you cannt beat someone to the inch of there life when they not done nothinng another video to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QIHVObH1jU

Seriously is like going back to the olden time of blood sport in an arena in Rome its what it reminds me of i know some good people in Italy but there to many crazed looneys just want to stab people needs to stop. Also these Police need straightening out laws need to change before more Policeman and people are killed over there. :(

Football needs to get like cricket where fans mix look at the World Cup going on at mo you never see them scenes in cricket everyone gets along. Why cant football be the same and everyone get along instead of ruining someone life just because your team lost or making peoples life worse. These people they stab have familys probably like themselves although who wants to be a family to that i dont know but the more knive are used the more familys are ruined. Put it into context what if your friend was stabbed fighting for his life in a hospital need to stamp this out people should be able to mix and get along. Nobody should be killed over a ball that travels across a pitch for 90+ mins football should be enjoyed by all and people need to learn some respect Utd fans included football would be a much more happy place.

On that note i really hope Uk Police get it right over here because there going to be people looking for retaliation to the stabbings over here. But the Policing over here they just pick the people up and chuck them in van thats the difference and alot of officer will get round you. I really hope nobody is stabbed over here or any Roma fans it is not nice to see at all i hope for a peaceful return and nothing bad to happen. :(
 
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Uefa to investigate Spurs trouble

Officials clashed with away fans at Sevilla's stadium
Uefa will launch an investigation after crowd trouble broke out during Thursday's Uefa Cup tie between Sevilla and Tottenham in Spain.
Riot police separated fans outside the ground before kick-off and during the match, trouble erupted in the enclosure housing 4,000 travelling Spurs fans.

Unconfirmed reports said seven Tottenham fans and one policeman had been taken to hospital.

A Uefa spokesman said: "Any incidents of crowd trouble will be investigated."

Tottenham have already pledged their full support to the authorities.

"Our initial reports suggest there was no fan-to-fan fighting at any stage of the proceedings," said a club statement.

"As such we are seeking explanations as to why the police reacted in the way they did with our fans.

"Tottenham supporters have enjoyed an exemplary reputation across Europe this season which is why tonight's events are unprecedented.

"We will be co-operating fully with Uefa, the British Embassy and the Spanish authorities to understand why this has happened."

The scenes followed violent clashes between fans and police in Manchester United's Champions League tie in Rome on Wednesday.

Less than half an hour into Thursday's game, trouble erupted in the enclosure housing the 4,000 Spurs supporters, where riot police were deployed.

Seats and punches were thrown as the the clashes continued during the half-time interval.

Spurs boss Martin Jol

However, things settled down following the departure of the riot police from the Spurs enclosure at the start of the second half.

Tottenham boss Martin Jol said he had remained focused on events on the pitch - which saw Spurs lose the first leg 2-1.

"I don't know what started it but I had to focus on the game, and if you don't do that then you could lose your concentration," said the Dutchman.

"The only thing that I saw was that there was no separation between the two stands."

He added: "Of course it is a concern, but at first you have to look into it and then you can make your mind up.

"Yesterday we saw everything that happened, and I don't want to make a judgement on that.

"It's not always one-way traffic, you know what I mean?"
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FFS, if this continues it wont really matter who was to blame as all everyone is gonna see is english fans fighting with the police. Interesting comment in there that once the riot police left the fighting stopped, with the fighting only being between the fans and police, no rival fans involved.

Like i said earlier, it cant be a nice atmosphere when you have a 100 or more full gear riot police waiting for someone to do something wrong to have an excuse to wade in. Especially with what happend in rome. UEFA and the national FA should really step up and sort it out with the regulation and policing in stadiums.
They are making a hostile environment before the game has even started, even i can see that thats never gonna have a positive influence. The majority of fans, i assume, are there to watch the game, drink some sangri, enjoy the occasion and mix/swap shirts/scarfs with the locals. With a small minority going to cause trouble. So the logical conclusion is to let stewards get rid of the couple of bad apples as the majority of visiting fans will back them up. You cant have that same "community responsibility" between away fans when on your right there are a group of pumped up men with batons just waiting for someone to do something. Everybody loses their individual responsibility in that situation and therefor cant do anything against the culprits. They dont have time as they will be attacked, meaning everybody in that section is on edge in a defensive position and when the police do attack because some knobhead has thrown something all the "good" fans are looking to do is defend themselves, in turn causing more fighting. They really should look into the places were it works, and take a lecture/ read a book on sociology to understand how people work in situations. Its not f$%ing brain surgery as we as people are all fairly predictiable.
 
Bingham67 and tiktiktiktik, i agree with almost everything u wrote. afterall, every reasonable man would agree with u. i'm sure that even our policemen, looking at those immages, would agree with u.

but as i said before this is a abnormal situation, it takes to be there, to understand it. i can understand how u guys find unbelievable what happened last night. even i, looking at the matches from the sideline tribunes, can't believe to what i see sometimes.....but u know, being in the ends, the situation changes.

it's quite different when u look at it from the tv, as u see just what the tv wants to show, of course. but when u're there, it all becomes clear, it's not unbelievable anymore, it becomes logical....... disgusting, unacceptable, barbaric, but logical.

as u correctly say we have to call out our police forces from the stadia, as with their attitude, they just "fuel the fire", and , as soon as our clubs will have their own stadia, we will be able to do it (until our teams play in cities stadia, our cities forces have the legal responsability to providing the "security").

but as i said before,it's all about misunderstanding and fear, the problem is not our police forces. i can guarrentee u that english, french, spanish policemen would have the same attitude, in that abnormal situation, you and me, we would have the same attitude in that abnormal situation.

btw guys, let's continue on the "bad news for italy" thread ...https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/39162/page-6. i think a lot of people here is getting annoyed by this conversation ;)
 
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