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FIFA 21 Discussion (Console Versions)

rojofa said:
FIFA 12 "Impact Engine" is the last proper innovation I can remember, everything since then has been gradual iterations (and regressions) on the same thing, usually just adding more canned animations and gimmicks (timed shooting etc.).

When I was growing up playing football games, you bought the game and that was it. Building your dream team was done in ML/Manager modes was just about signing/developing the best players through the game modes, creating your mates to put in your team etc and playing local co-op ML... Now kids of that age or younger are having FUT and competitive online play shoved in their face from the moment they open the game or watch popular channels on Youtube/Twitch.

When they want to similarly build a dream team like I did at that age it's not just to have fun in a ML campaign, it's to win in competitive online play, and they have gambling introduced to them to facilitate it. It's disgusting really that we accept this or even just look the other way to play other modes. It has nothing to do with nostalgia to think this is a worse experience as someone's first football game compared to the older games we played. Who knows if I had UT constantly in my face growing up I wouldn't have become addicted to opening packs or something, it's exploiting children/addicts and harming so many people financially and mentally.

@fernadez - Your last 2 videos are set to private :).
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The UT chestnut...

I don’t like and I don’t agree with microtranctions..

I also don’t need a lecture on the morality of hiding things behind a paywall.I know in our day we actually preferred working at things and earning are achievements.Kids now prefer watching people play games then actually playing them(strange phenomena I know)..But I’ve got two kids.
 
StrangelyEnough said:
Sometimes I wonder if anyone on here actually used to play football games back in the day
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Id say - most people, looking at our age.
StrangelyEnough said:
Is it really that bad?..unrealistic?.
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Last 2 years or so - yes.

See - this is what really annoys me, when someone comes and hits people with a speech like this. You (and a lot of people) think we expect some sort of miracle here. You said it yourself:
StrangelyEnough said:
you want something that’s never going to happen because you’ve created a game in your heads that’s never going to exist..
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And my personal favourite:
StrangelyEnough said:
So much rose tinted nostalgia and this idea that everything was so much better once.
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I have also played ISS, every Pes and Fifa (since '96)
In fact - I have played ISS two days ago and I tell you this much - it still has better AI and less basic, core issues that we have now.

Do you really think that asking for fouls in a football game, or your own team mates to move around without having to beat them with a stick is asking for miracle?

StrangelyEnough said:
You know what the most ironic thing is imo..The reality that a lot of so-called hardcore use assisted settings both on pes and fifa..You want simulation,yet you want assistance and a game that can be also enjoyed by non-skilled gamers and newcomers
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Please - get off your high horse. Settings have nothing to do with the way the game plays. This is simply a preference, whether you want to have more input on passing, shooting direction, or would you like players (and their Abilities) to do it for you.
It has nothing to do with behaviour of entire team as a whole. And it has nothing to so with AI.

I have been playing all football games on manual settings for a good while now (which btw - doesnt make me better than anybody else here).
And last two years, on both fronts, were tragic, when it comes to AI and your own team mates.
Maybe its time for you to grab few older games and focusing on those two aspects just to see that nostalgia has nothing to do with anything.

I'll give you a hint - you dont have to go back as far as I did.
Pes17 is the last where AI would surprise you and kept you on your toes,
Fifa18/17 were the last where your team acted normal, before they switched off their "brains" in the name of "Skill Gap".
 
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manmachine said:
Well by definition, and unfortunately for EA/Konami, football is 11v11 and you can only control 1 player any given time. The old games got the right idea: The other 10 move around controlled by AI trying to play the game normally. Now we're told that they shouldn't intercept/block/tackle/mark unless under direct control. You might like it and that's great. In practice it's not fun, it doesn't look or feel anything like football. Can't believe I have to make the case for AI in a team sport game.

And you could pull players out of position just fine in older games and it was satisfying to do so because it was the result of something you did. Now that their default state = brain dead and they're out of position half the time by themselves there's also no joy to be had scoring. Just look at the ridiculous score lines we're seeing.
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I kind of figured low score lines aren’t going to be a regular thing when I first booted up fifa20..

I’ve just found myself being more clinical and more inclined to clear my lines rather then passing around my own box or walking it out on the wings..If my box is busy with opposing players I just play the high percentages..
 
Emroth said:
Id say - most people, looking at our age.

Last 2 years or so - yes.

See - this is what really annoys me, when someone comes and hits people with a speech like this. You (and a lot of people) think we expect some sort of miracle here. You said it yourself:

And my personal favourite:


I have also played ISS, every Pes and Fifa (since '96)
In fact - I have played ISS two days ago and I tell you this much - it still has better AI and less basic, core issues that we have now.

Do you really think that asking for fouls in a football game, or your own team mates to move around without having to beat them with a stick is asking for miracle?



Please - get off your high horse. Settings have nothing to do with the way the game plays. This is simply a preference, whether you want to more input on passing, shooting direction, or would you like players (and their Abilities) to do it for you.
It has nothing to do with behaviour of entire team as a whole. And it has nothing to so with AI.

I have been playing all football games on manual settings for a good while now (which btw - doesnt make me better than anybody else here).
And last two years, on both fronts, were tragic, when it comes to AI and your own team mates.
Maybe its time for you to grab few older games and focusing on those two aspects just to see that nostalgia has nothing to do with anything.

I'll give you a hint - you dont have to go back as far as I did.
Pes17 is the last where AI would surprise you and kept you on your toes,
Fifa18/17 were the last where your team acted normal, before they switched off their "brains" in the name of "Skill Gap".
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Not on my high horse just stating a opinion.

Unassisted play is different..Simply because you have to think more about body and foot position.Its much harder on both games to hit accurate first time passes and the ball doesn’t always get played to feet..It also opens both games up because the cpu isn’t choosing which player the ball goes to..You can place the ball in front or to the side of the player.Try both games unassisted and you can’t ping the ball around as effortlessly as you can on even the first level of assistance(but you know that).Playing without assistance is a much slower measured game with more error and much lower score lines.

Yes football games were good back in the day but there also very good now.There not awful,that’s your opinion and a number of others,it doesn’t make it fact.Nor does your opinion on what pes is better this gen.

I wasn’t flaming and I think others on here have just as much experience with football games as me..Does everyone have to have the same opinion and it’s true that certain people will always find something they don’t like.

Your never going to have one game where every element is universally loved.
 
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StrangelyEnough said:
Before in FIFA the defence were like robots..Now defenders get pulled out of position by the movement of the rest of the team.
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Do the cpu teams' defenders now get pulled out of position, too, to the same extent? I've not played FIFA for a couple of years but one thing I recall disliking from a few years ago was that the FIFA cpu defence always seemed to be a perfect flat back 4, never pulled out of place, always perfectly organised, whether it be Man City or Mansfield. It felt like you were just playing against the same defence every match - which, in effect, you were.


manmachine said:
Well by definition, and unfortunately for EA/Konami, football is 11v11 and you can only control 1 player any given time. The old games got the right idea: The other 10 move around controlled by AI trying to play the game normally. Now we're told that they shouldn't intercept/block/tackle/mark unless under direct control. You might like it and that's great. In practice it's not fun, it doesn't look or feel anything like football. Can't believe I have to make the case for AI in a team sport game.
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So how does fixed-cursor/become-a-pro (or whatever EA call it) work when you're controlling only the one player all match? Your AI team-mates must do something, otherwise that mode can no longer exist? That said, in PES19 and 20, the AI team-mate logic was mangled to the point where it does no longer work, so the mode may as well be removed from that game.

It makes me wonder, if people are now saying all AI players on the human's team are passive until under human control, whatever happened to EA's claim that "each of the 21 computer-controlled players make over 1,000 decisions per second"....and that was in FIFA08, 13 years ago.
 
Emroth said:
Have to agree with @rojofa
No sliders can change fundamental issues in Fifa. Like free kicks or your team being somewhat... alive.
I appreciate what you're doing for community, Matt, but to me it looks like this:
Fifa without sliders:
View attachment 57539
Fifa with sliders:
View attachment 57540
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That's a great analogy.

Let me be perfectly clear to everyone. I'm not saying sliders = the solution to everything. I'm saying, if you're going to post a problem, I'm going to use the tools given - whether it be sliders, instructions or something else. If I can't find the solution, then I will be vocal. I did it last year with FIFA when I posted the defensive angle animation. It somehow got fixed through a patch update - I have no idea how.

Sliders aren't the solution for everything, they aren't. But they're the tools we are given. I'm solution oriented, that's just how I've always been. Complaining without action is still complaining. Just because someone is enjoying things doesn't mean they don't want more, doesn't mean they are content - it just means that for whatever issues were occurring are now seemingly fixed/manipulated, it improves their experience - then that's a step towards them being happy.

Just because sliders are being used to find solutions, it doesn't negate the desire to want EA to do better with all of the other core fundamentals of proper physics, fouls, resistance, football/soccer aptitude - all of the above. I'm 100% wanting those too. However, and this truly a question that you have to ask yourself: If [all of the above] doesn't exist, what are you going to do about it?

I'm not a dev, nor am I rich beyond all measure, so I can't create a game. I'm not a super connected celebrity, so I can't influence the top guys to tell the devs to make a better game. I'm not a FUT enthusiast or a sell-out, so I can't get close with these young 20 year old youtubers with millions of followers.

We all know what should be done and how most feel the game should be. But that's not the reality of the situation.
 
StrangelyEnough said:
Not on my high horse just stating a opinion.

Unassisted play is different..Simply because you have to think more about body and foot position.Its much harder on both games to hit accurate first time passes and the ball doesn’t always get played to feet..It also opens both games up because the cpu isn’t choosing which player the ball goes to..You can place the ball in front or to the side of the player.

Yes football games were good back in the day but there also very good now.There not awful,that’s your opinion and a number of others,it doesn’t make it fact.Nor does your opinion on what pes is better this gen.

I wasn’t flaming and I think others on here have just as much experience with football games as me..Does everyone have to have the same opinion and it’s true that certain people will always find something they don’t like.

Your never going to have one game where every element is universally loved.
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I do think you are missing the point here, honestly.
Everyone has their own preferences, true.
But there's a difference in preferring gameplay elements, that were present in all the iterations, and then there's a CORE gameplay.

One might say he preferred rocket shots on Pes18 over floaty ones in Pes19. And thats ok. Thats personal preference.

We are talking about Core gameplay elements, basics. Your player/team movements, AI, free kicks.
These are basics. They are part of football. They should be present in every single game!

Whats the point of buying 80M defender in Career Mode if he will just be standing there like a cone until you switch to him??

Its the entire flow of football thats lacking in recent titles, not some elements that people might like, or not.
 
Matt10 said:
That's a great analogy.

Let me be perfectly clear to everyone. I'm not saying sliders = the solution to everything. I'm saying, if you're going to post a problem, I'm going to use the tools given - whether it be sliders, instructions or something else. If I can't find the solution, then I will be vocal. I did it last year with FIFA when I posted the defensive angle animation. It somehow got fixed through a patch update - I have no idea how.

Sliders aren't the solution for everything, they aren't. But they're the tools we are given. I'm solution oriented, that's just how I've always been. Complaining without action is still complaining. Just because someone is enjoying things doesn't mean they don't want more, doesn't mean they are content - it just means that for whatever issues were occurring are now seemingly fixed/manipulated, it improves their experience - then that's a step towards them being happy.

Just because sliders are being used to find solutions, it doesn't negate the desire to want EA to do better with all of the other core fundamentals of proper physics, fouls, resistance, football/soccer aptitude - all of the above. I'm 100% wanting those too. However, and this truly a question that you have to ask yourself: If [all of the above] doesn't exist, what are you going to do about it?

I'm not a dev, nor am I rich beyond all measure, so I can't create a game. I'm not a super connected celebrity, so I can't influence the top guys to tell the devs to make a better game. I'm not a FUT enthusiast or a sell-out, so I can't get close with these young 20 year old youtubers with millions of followers.

We all know what should be done and how most feel the game should be. But that's not the reality of the situation.
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You talk a lot of sense Matt and show a great deal of maturity both in your view point and knowledge however limited of game development..

Im with you on this and your earlier post today..I do think progress is being made and FIFA is improving(they are trying to make a better game).

I just don’t feel it’s all doom and gloom either.
 
The last few pages have been a really good debate, thanks for all the material guys. Genuinely, I think it's fascinating - because I'm sort-of on the fence, in the debate between "EA should make the game represent the sport it's supposed to be based on", and "they make one game for all gamers, and the opponent AI is much better, so let's give it a shot".

As Matt says, if we were in control of game development, it would be a different game (and in all likelihood, 100x better - in terms of what we're looking for, and in terms of a representation of real-life). But, we have to accept that FIFA isn't changing, whether they get bombarded on social media or even if sales drop.

If they don't develop three different games for three different types of player - and why would they do that when it would cost them more money and football fans from each camp will buy it anyway and "settle" because the alternative is even worse (a game as torturously stiff as PES, and with none of the licenses) - then FIFA will always be this way.

The amount of development time they have is genuinely tiny (and in the case of PES, the dev team is too). The best games take 3-5 years of development and a decent investment. FIFA doesn't get that - and even if you have a "three year plan", after one year you've got 10,000 valid complaints. To continue selling the game, you have to fix the bits people complain about the most (which isn't the "skating" or the defending, by the way - which would be my top two - and even in the case of defending, most people complain that it's not 1v1 ENOUGH).

Add to that having three sets of users with distinctly different desires... You can't do it all in a year. So a "jack of all trades" game that never seems to evolve is the only answer they have, without doing what Konami have done (and I can't praise them enough for that).

There's even more to consider - there will be a board-level fear that changing the game "too much" (i.e. starting from scratch) will end up putting off big customers (i.e. the kids who love FUT). We're all guilty of looking at football games in the same way that a movie critic judges a movie, as opposed to the publisher and/or the marketer. They're not producing these games for us to write essays about how marvellous the game feels. They're producing them like fast food. Get them hooked and for God's sake don't change the recipe too much just in-case.

On top of all that, even... Gaming has changed (for the worse). Gone are the days of buying a PES game, being terrible at it because it's so hard, and sticking at it until you start making decisions like a real footballer would have to make, and understanding that your pass just went out of play because you tried to do something stupid. Nobody wants to do that any more (except us). If they don't like it on day one, they jump into the sea of other games out there aimed at a mass-market, which don't bite you if you do it wrong.

But one thing that gives me hope, in a world where all sports games with mass-market appeal seem to be sped-up and dumbed-down...

PGA Tour 2K21 released last week. All the marketing is based on the licensing, and/or wacky videos where your mates get pissed off when you beat them, or designing stupid courses with skyscrapers in the middle of the fairways etc... The fans were fearing the worst.

Then it was announced that, when you play online, you're locked to the medium difficulty (called Pro). Cue a few hardcore guys (including me) shouting on the dev forums about how it was going to be dreadful playing online, with everyone getting superhuman scores.

Then, the game released. The devs kept the core values of the game in mind** . They've released a game, that they're mass-marketing, and that has sold bucketloads... where the standard difficulty is off the charts. It's absolutely hard as nails. I've not seen that for a long time in a mass-appeal title. It's absolutely punishing. But it seems - so far - that most of the people who buy it, are loving it. A few are crying that it's too hard - but they're sticking with it.

**The problem is... The core values of FIFA aren't simulation-based, no matter what FIFA 16 was like - those times have passed for all the reasons I mention above. The only way we'll ever have a game that truly blows us away is if a third-party comes along - or if the PES reboot next year is sensational. It might be our last big chance.
 
I think if ea made a Uber hard game that was much more simulated(ie much looser touch,miscontrol,bad touch,a ball that was completely free)..It’s would still sell bucket loads purely of the licensing.

Let’s go back in time to the early years when FIFA was abysmal yet still massively outsold PES..Quality just didn’t matter.

Ea could easily do all of the above even with there current engine..People would warm to it in the end and it wouldn’t effect sales one Jot..

People don’t know what they want until you give it to them..That’s the problem with committy and the best media has always worked and come through on those principles.
 
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Chris Davies said:
The last few pages have been a really good debate, thanks for all the material guys. Genuinely, I think it's fascinating - because I'm sort-of on the fence, in the debate between "EA should make the game represent the sport it's supposed to be based on", and "they make one game for all gamers, and the opponent AI is much better, so let's give it a shot".

As Matt says, if we were in control of game development, it would be a different game (and in all likelihood, 100x better - in terms of what we're looking for, and in terms of a representation of real-life). But, we have to accept that FIFA isn't changing, whether they get bombarded on social media or even if sales drop.

If they don't develop three different games for three different types of player - and why would they do that when it would cost them more money and football fans from each camp will buy it anyway and "settle" because the alternative is even worse (a game as torturously stiff as PES, and with none of the licenses) - then FIFA will always be this way.

The amount of development time they have is genuinely tiny (and in the case of PES, the dev team is too). The best games take 3-5 years of development and a decent investment. FIFA doesn't get that - and even if you have a "three year plan", after one year you've got 10,000 valid complaints. To continue selling the game, you have to fix the bits people complain about the most (which isn't the "skating" or the defending, by the way - which would be my top two - and even in the case of defending, most people complain that it's not 1v1 ENOUGH).

Add to that having three sets of users with distinctly different desires... You can't do it all in a year. So a "jack of all trades" game that never seems to evolve is the only answer they have, without doing what Konami have done (and I can't praise them enough for that).

There's even more to consider - there will be a board-level fear that changing the game "too much" (i.e. starting from scratch) will end up putting off big customers (i.e. the kids who love FUT). We're all guilty of looking at football games in the same way that a movie critic judges a movie, as opposed to the publisher and/or the marketer. They're not producing these games for us to write essays about how marvellous the game feels. They're producing them like fast food. Get them hooked and for God's sake don't change the recipe too much just in-case.

On top of all that, even... Gaming has changed (for the worse). Gone are the days of buying a PES game, being terrible at it because it's so hard, and sticking at it until you start making decisions like a real footballer would have to make, and understanding that your pass just went out of play because you tried to do something stupid. Nobody wants to do that any more (except us). If they don't like it on day one, they jump into the sea of other games out there aimed at a mass-market, which don't bite you if you do it wrong.

But one thing that gives me hope, in a world where all sports games with mass-market appeal seem to be sped-up and dumbed-down...

PGA Tour 2K21 released last week. All the marketing is based on the licensing, and/or wacky videos where your mates get pissed off when you beat them, or designing stupid courses with skyscrapers in the middle of the fairways etc... The fans were fearing the worst.

Then it was announced that, when you play online, you're locked to the medium difficulty (called Pro). Cue a few hardcore guys (including me) shouting on the dev forums about how it was going to be dreadful playing online, with everyone getting superhuman scores.

Then, the game released. The devs kept the core values of the game in mind** . They've released a game, that they're mass-marketing, and that has sold bucketloads... where the standard difficulty is off the charts. It's absolutely hard as nails. I've not seen that for a long time in a mass-appeal title. It's absolutely punishing. But it seems - so far - that most of the people who buy it, are loving it. A few are crying that it's too hard - but they're sticking with it.

**The problem is... The core values of FIFA aren't simulation-based, no matter what FIFA 16 was like - those times have passed for all the reasons I mention above. The only way we'll ever have a game that truly blows us away is if a third-party comes along - or if the PES reboot next year is sensational. It might be our last big chance.
Click to expand...
Golf fans generally are probably a lot more mature and actually play and/or watch the sport. People with a casual interest don't just follow golfers tribally in the same way as a football team, Tiger Woods was about the only player with that kind of appeal and his peak is the only time we got casual EA sports console golf games (they were actually good for what they were though). As he'd been almost absent for most of the decade and doesn't dominate any more, there's likely to be a higher proportion of the more hardcore golf fans remaining interested in following the sport and purchasing video games these days.

Maybe what we need is football itself to drop off in popularity somehow :D It's too big culturally though for that, and people identify as huge fans of players/clubs when they probably don't even watch any full matches, go to any games or have even played much at any level even recreationally. Pretty much everyone into sports just supports a football team (local or random top club) because that's just what you do in many countries. As long as EA can let you do stuff you see in Youtube goal/skill compilations and make the game competitive online like Fortnite, that's enough for a huge number of players.

If Tiger Woods was born 15-20 years later and his peak was right now, I really don't think a game like PGA2K21 would happen. EA would have gobbled up the license and be making it with FIFA style gameplay + microtransactions.
 
Chris Davies said:
The last few pages have been a really good debate, thanks for all the material guys. Genuinely, I think it's fascinating - because I'm sort-of on the fence, in the debate between "EA should make the game represent the sport it's supposed to be based on", and "they make one game for all gamers, and the opponent AI is much better, so let's give it a shot".

As Matt says, if we were in control of game development, it would be a different game (and in all likelihood, 100x better - in terms of what we're looking for, and in terms of a representation of real-life). But, we have to accept that FIFA isn't changing, whether they get bombarded on social media or even if sales drop.

If they don't develop three different games for three different types of player - and why would they do that when it would cost them more money and football fans from each camp will buy it anyway and "settle" because the alternative is even worse (a game as torturously stiff as PES, and with none of the licenses) - then FIFA will always be this way.

The amount of development time they have is genuinely tiny (and in the case of PES, the dev team is too). The best games take 3-5 years of development and a decent investment. FIFA doesn't get that - and even if you have a "three year plan", after one year you've got 10,000 valid complaints. To continue selling the game, you have to fix the bits people complain about the most (which isn't the "skating" or the defending, by the way - which would be my top two - and even in the case of defending, most people complain that it's not 1v1 ENOUGH).

Add to that having three sets of users with distinctly different desires... You can't do it all in a year. So a "jack of all trades" game that never seems to evolve is the only answer they have, without doing what Konami have done (and I can't praise them enough for that).

There's even more to consider - there will be a board-level fear that changing the game "too much" (i.e. starting from scratch) will end up putting off big customers (i.e. the kids who love FUT). We're all guilty of looking at football games in the same way that a movie critic judges a movie, as opposed to the publisher and/or the marketer. They're not producing these games for us to write essays about how marvellous the game feels. They're producing them like fast food. Get them hooked and for God's sake don't change the recipe too much just in-case.

On top of all that, even... Gaming has changed (for the worse). Gone are the days of buying a PES game, being terrible at it because it's so hard, and sticking at it until you start making decisions like a real footballer would have to make, and understanding that your pass just went out of play because you tried to do something stupid. Nobody wants to do that any more (except us). If they don't like it on day one, they jump into the sea of other games out there aimed at a mass-market, which don't bite you if you do it wrong.

But one thing that gives me hope, in a world where all sports games with mass-market appeal seem to be sped-up and dumbed-down...

PGA Tour 2K21 released last week. All the marketing is based on the licensing, and/or wacky videos where your mates get pissed off when you beat them, or designing stupid courses with skyscrapers in the middle of the fairways etc... The fans were fearing the worst.

Then it was announced that, when you play online, you're locked to the medium difficulty (called Pro). Cue a few hardcore guys (including me) shouting on the dev forums about how it was going to be dreadful playing online, with everyone getting superhuman scores.

Then, the game released. The devs kept the core values of the game in mind** . They've released a game, that they're mass-marketing, and that has sold bucketloads... where the standard difficulty is off the charts. It's absolutely hard as nails. I've not seen that for a long time in a mass-appeal title. It's absolutely punishing. But it seems - so far - that most of the people who buy it, are loving it. A few are crying that it's too hard - but they're sticking with it.

**The problem is... The core values of FIFA aren't simulation-based, no matter what FIFA 16 was like - those times have passed for all the reasons I mention above. The only way we'll ever have a game that truly blows us away is if a third-party comes along - or if the PES reboot next year is sensational. It might be our last big chance.
Click to expand...

Can't add much more to that, it's perfectly explained, Chris.

I can give some insight to PGA2k21 though. As you know it started very small dev group from HB Studios creating The Golf Club. What kept that game alive was truly the community via tgctours.com . When the dev team is willing to give you the API to their scoring platform, you know you've got a role to play.

In terms of difficulty, when I joined on and brought the true sim tour, we had 2000 registrants day one. Everyone wanted to give it a try and wanted to show just how good they were. We just finished our 5th season, and the highest turnout was 190 participants. Although we expect a lot more for the start of the 2k21 season, it goes to show the value of a game that is built on a simulation approach, but ensuring that all corners are met. PGA2k21 does a lot of this by allowing users to toggle on/off options. True Sim, we don't play with green grids, scout camera, etc. However, you can surely play with them if you choose to in other tours and societies.

I told you this at some point during the beta, but the fact that most of those gimmicky FIFA 21 features can be toggled on and off is a step in the right direction. I'd love for it to be more (such as 1v1 defending), but in terms of a core fundamental that is giving the user options - I have to thank EA for that. Just the same way I thanked Shaun and his team for keeping features that would've killed TST as just options, so my tour can continue - and even embrace the added level of difficulty.
 
majuh said:
No, FIFA 19 was also fine in this regard.
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1v1s were introduced in 20, but the defensive AI started regressing in 18. It just got worse year after year and then some idiot came up with 1v1s which was just the final blow that everyone could notice.

You really had to player switch a lot in 18 compared to 17, defenders were already more passive. But they didn't just stop suddenly on their tracks, 2nd man press was not yet completely useless and tactics/positioning were still better than in 19/20. So it was more subtle overall. The most obvious AI flaw in 18 was probably this:

 
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majuh said:
No, FIFA 19 was also fine in this regard.
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Like my evo colleague above me stated - it started regressing in 19. I was a big fan of Tactical Defending in 18, which felt useful and on point, with a bit of practice.

In 19 defending started feeling much more useless and our team mates started getting more sleepy.
On top of that - i dont recall having any free kicks, or handballs in 19 (which I had previously, on 18).
Everything became soft and physicality was lost.

I really appreciate and even admire how Matt is battling to bring this game to some shape every year.
Im not here to moan for the sake of moaning. I suppose im hoping against hope that developers are popping in here every now and then and I hope that one day they will at least give us more tools to play with.
New features with ON and OFF options are a good start, but we still need much more.
We need to have AI aggression slider, which we could bring up for Offline play.
And I dont mean aggression as a thirst for blood, just to give us fouls. Im talking about a general "desire" to get the ball, so we could enjoy a normal flow of matches, where players are fighting for every ball (and maybe even have few free kicks as a result).
 
For a change like this that we ask EA would have to make changes from zero, starting with the animations that are extremely responsive, this 21 is even more responsive. Regarding defense I agree, the problem is that it would go against Pro Players who ask for less help from artificial intelligence every year, EA today looks more at the casual and competitive player.

I pass Feedback straight to them, but it's not that simple, it varies according to the priority and what the team puts as a goal for each FIFA. I believe that the base of FIFA will never change, first that the game is sales leader, EA thinks everything but change the game from zero, which would be something very positive.

This year it is clear that the biggest focus was on the attack. There was a lot of complaint from the pro players of automatic defense, they assess that AI helps too much in the tackle.
 
Mathgamer said:
For a change like this that we ask EA would have to make changes from zero, starting with the animations that are extremely responsive, this 21 is even more responsive. Regarding defense I agree, the problem is that it would go against Pro Players who ask for less help from artificial intelligence every year, EA today looks more at the casual and competitive player.

I pass Feedback straight to them, but it's not that simple, it varies according to the priority and what the team puts as a goal for each FIFA. I believe that the base of FIFA will never change, first that the game is sales leader, EA thinks everything but change the game from zero, which would be something very positive.

This year it is clear that the biggest focus was on the attack. There was a lot of complaint from the pro players of automatic defense, they assess that AI helps too much in the tackle.
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Looks like those pro players won't be happy until the AI controlled players are reduced to traffic cones, which they are not far of already.
 
Mathgamer said:
This year it is clear that the biggest focus was on the attack. There was a lot of complaint from the pro players of automatic defense, they assess that AI helps too much in the tackle.
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Yes of course, that was EAs way of keeping scores reasonable before. There is no buildup or midfield, you can reach the final 3rd in milliseconds. So there had to be some last ditch attempt to keep the game from having basketball scorelines. Through balls that favoured the keeper, blocks, shots hitting the post, etc. Now it seems through balls and pace are deadly, they just added back some attacking exploits from 19 (1st time volleys, bicycle kicks, scorpion kicks, finesse shots) and a brand new exploit (the comical agile dribbling).

And we're seeing games ending 8-5 already. Is that according to plan? Have they given up completely on balancing games?
 
Having played on the new default mode I find it ironic that for all of their complaining the CPU helps more in FUT than it does normally in Kick Off or career due to the stat boosts.

So whatever changes they continue to make to nerf defending those players will never experience.
 
fernadez said:
Having played on the new default mode I find it ironic that for all of their complaining the CPU helps more in FUT than it does normally in Kick Off or career due to the stat boosts.

So whatever changes they continue to make to nerf defending those players will never experience.
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How have you found the 1v1? Is it as bad as 20?
 
fernadez said:
Worse I would say, as the attacking is better.
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The thing is, game balancing is not rocket science. It's not trivial if you want to get it perfect, but otherwise it's just not that hard to roughly get it right. In 20 brain dead AI defenders were balanced out a bit by the lack of good offensive movement and runs. Obviously it made for a crap game, but that was their lame attempt at balancing.

I tweeted this exactly a month ago, that's probably before the beta:

podosfairo1.jpg

Fast forward to today. Oh, yeah: 6-5, 8-3, 7-1. And apparently that's with the best defenders in the game with boosted defensive awareness stats in fut.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Emroth said:
Like my evo colleague above me stated - it started regressing in 19. I was a big fan of Tactical Defending in 18, which felt useful and on point, with a bit of practice.

In 19 defending started feeling much more useless and our team mates started getting more sleepy.
On top of that - i dont recall having any free kicks, or handballs in 19 (which I had previously, on 18).
Everything became soft and physicality was lost.
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Cannot confirm. I've been playing FIFA 19 for two years now; defending is pretty similar to FIFA 17 and FIFA 18, and wildly different compared to FIFA 20.

Free kicks have always been rare in the last four games they released. Handballs had definitely been toned down in FIFA 19, but they still exist there.
 
manmachine said:
1v1s were introduced in 20, but the defensive AI started regressing in 18. It just got worse year after year and then some idiot came up with 1v1s which was just the final blow that everyone could notice.

You really had to player switch a lot in 18 compared to 17, defenders were already more passive. But they didn't just stop suddenly on their tracks, 2nd man press was not yet completely useless and tactics/positioning were still better than in 19/20. So it was more subtle overall. The most obvious AI flaw in 18 was probably this:

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This was such a strange animation. In World Class it could be recreated, but in Legendary it only happened towards the end of the match. Even then, it wasn't a surprise to see it randomly show up. Just a difficult animation to isolate overall.

Overall, I really enjoyed FIFA 18. It was a good base to work with, and I played it for a while until 19. Was rummaging through old YT videos, and found this full match - really no issues stood out.

 
Matt10 said:
This was such a strange animation. In World Class it could be recreated, but in Legendary it only happened towards the end of the match. Even then, it wasn't a surprise to see it randomly show up. Just a difficult animation to isolate overall.

Overall, I really enjoyed FIFA 18. It was a good base to work with, and I played it for a while until 19. Was rummaging through old YT videos, and found this full match - really no issues stood out.

Click to expand...


That AI freezing when using simple skill moves was very common for me, maybe not actively running away scared like in this example, lol. Not sure about the difficulty now. Maybe Legendary, maybe WC, def. not lower than WC.

18 is one of those strange games that you could hate if you were coming from 16/17 or like nowadays, if you're coming back from 20. The best I can say about it now is that it was the year they finally smoothed out all animations (no more twitchy movement like in 15/17 where it looked like the game was using 1 or 2 frames for some actions) and that it's now the last fifa game with the old tactical system, which I now miss.

But it's also the huge turning point that led to 19/20, more passive team mates, ping pong passing from the cpu, driven passes to the striker... so if 21 is a disappointment I think i'd rather go back to 16/17 again. Whenever I revisit 18 I never manage to stick with it for more than an in-game season. Depends a lot on the team/league you'll pick though. You can have a decent time in 18 and even in 19 if you stick to a lower division.

The 18 demo though... That was really good.
(Revisiting the community sliders thread in OS, it's interesting how many people were asking "what happened to the demo gameplay", after the game release). :))
 
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